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On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
He gets knocked out in the Ro32 in the hardest tourney in the world and he's slipping. You people are retarded. Hell oGs should probably just drop him, he has no chance anymore right? How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion. As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC? MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Except MC's wins were eons ago. Losira got Code S Finalist last season (we're talking about current performance, not past performance). Also, Losira beat MC straight-up at Columbus. I'm not sure I'd put DRG on that level yet but Losira definitely is currently a bit better in my opinion.
In terms of "star"dom MC is definitely 2nd or 3rd, but in terms of current performance you can't say he's been exactly tearing it up, since his loss to Hongun he hasn't won any kind of boX. Never too late to turn it around but he relly has to push it to another level.
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On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote:
Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
MC got destroyed because he's only good at 1-2 base all-ins, and decided to pick the 2nd best player in the gsl IMMVP who is also insanely good. Mvp then picked the 1# player vs protoss. Of course he got destroyed.
Inca made it to the finals of a gsl by cheesing everyone he played. Inca has never won a single pvz in his life. Inca got eliminated by a zerg. Seeing as he has a 0% win rate.... no surprise there.
Anypro lost to a protoss.
Who the hell is vanvanth?
"Well respected foreigners" are garbage compared to koreans. Look at the mlgs. If a plat protoss lost to a master terran would you be qqing about balance?
Alicia tried a risky cheese and missed his forcefield. Then he tried to double expand behind it and just straight up died.
ROFL. None of the toss that lost to this even did 1 gate expands. Watch the freaking games. MC is the best PvT in the world, see MC vs Puma? yeah guy can only do 1 base all ins. You didn't watch any GSL or you just lack the ability of observation.
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On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote:On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and requires more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote:
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
Yeah man, stutter-stepping, boxing a few units to stim them forward, or picking stuff up with dropships are some really hardcore micro techniques. Seriously, what a joke.
You have a point about marine splits, since that's the only real interesting micro in sc2, along with ling/bling wars. But all of this other stuff is completely basic, any race can do it with almost all of their units. You'd think that 4gate vs 4gate is some amazing micro war, when it's just players pulling back hurt Stalkers and focus firing stuff. None of it is particularly difficult in the end.
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Northern Ireland26794 Posts
On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote:On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote:
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
Forgive me if I think blink micro is more impressive than stutter-step, but I do agree that good splits + target fire with tanks on banelings, and elevating out of forcefields are impressive. I'm not sure if it was intentional but you have pretty much captured part of the 'problem' with Protoss. Toss benefit from good, relatively easy to execute micro abilities up until a point and then hit an upper ceiling with what they can do with these abilities. MC's control is not in dispute as one of, if not the best out of any SC2 player and even he is struggling at the minute vs certain compositions
The deathball/storm abuse syndrome is also a sad necessity. Without AoE Protoss compositions simply cannot compete with the other two races when later tech comes into play. The only times they can are if you have an upgrade advantage with charge against a bio ball, or a zerg stubbornly sends roach after roach into a +2 blink stalker ball
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On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote:
Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
Firstly you don't know how to play pvt, it's very hard to win without expanding vs terran - and unless you die very shortly after expanding it's the best thing you can do.
Secondly, terran can safely 1rax expand vs 4gate if they are careful and defensive.
MC got destroyed because he's only good at 1-2 base all-ins
WOOOOOOOW
*stops replying to the post*
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I'm no pro, and don't really have the experience (gold league nub) to make any type of suggestions, but wouldn't a cannon at the mineral line/ramp, some vrays and zealots not stop this??
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On August 12 2011 03:15 Toadvine wrote:
You'd think that 4gate vs 4gate is some amazing micro war, when it's just players pulling back hurt Stalkers and focus firing stuff. None of it is particularly difficult in the end.
wtf does that mean? wtf do you think micro is? turning into pure energy and flying inside your computer and becoming one of the units?
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On August 12 2011 03:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:57 Techno wrote:On August 12 2011 01:39 Not_That wrote:On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote:This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply. On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote:
Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it. The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all. Protoss win championships. My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't. You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me. While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races. Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases. No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss. Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots,
Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots,
Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches),
protoss cant say shit Clearly someone who has never used Zealots or has a limited understanding of how they work. Woops, I cant stay anything until I gain the ability to control 30 zealots individually, my bad.
Clearly someone who thinks Protoss is at the peak of their evolution.
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It's threads like these that really emphasize what a low level, in respect to play and understanding of the game, most people are on. No wonder these threads all get locked so quickly.
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On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote:On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote:
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while.
This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players.
Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game. Given how he talks about sentries and stalkers, I'm sure his blink-micro is pristine, and his forcefields have never over-lapped. I'm sure his splitting skills from Terran allow him to make sure each EMP hits no more than one single unit. Again, just ignore him.
Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him.
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
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On August 12 2011 02:57 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:39 Not_That wrote:On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote:This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply. On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote:
Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it. The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all. Protoss win championships. My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't. You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me. While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races. Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases. No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss. Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots, Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots, Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches), protoss cant say shit
Please don't use ladder as a means for balance discussion. Master league and GM league players are terrible relative to Korean pros.
Late game Zealots in mineral line is good, but I can't imagine mid game Zealots doing anything. You shouldn't lose a single SCV from Zealots because they can't kill the SCVs fast enough. So unless you're terrible, you will notice it right away. Terran loses some mining time and Protoss just lost a Warp Prism and a few Zealots. Terran can just push right away with a bigger army or take another base right away and still be on equal terms with Protoss.
I dunno how manually charging individual Zealots will be any different from automatically charging Zealots.
Some people do chrono upgrades every game, though I could see room for improvement.
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On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote:
[Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him.
Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG)
Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
Thanks, Qtip. Your a champ. d=(^_^)=b
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On August 12 2011 03:16 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote:
Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die. Firstly you don't know how to play pvt, it's very hard to win without expanding vs terran - and unless you die very shortly after expanding it's the best thing you can do. Secondly, terran can safely 1rax expand vs 4gate if they are careful and defensive. WOOOOOOOW *stops replying to the post*
^^ right on, this is the biggest issue for protoss players right now, other races have a standardized defense that can hold any protoss all in, and to be frank they can hold it with an expo, protoss however cannot hold all-ins from other races with a 2nd nexus
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On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote:On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote:
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while. This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players. Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game. Given how he talks about sentries and stalkers, I'm sure his blink-micro is pristine, and his forcefields have never over-lapped. I'm sure his splitting skills from Terran allow him to make sure each EMP hits no more than one single unit. Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him. Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG) Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
I disagree. This is 5 rax reaper level of retardedness after the warpgate nerfs. There will be no rise, no innovation, this is not a complex style. It's an all in that a protoss can be completely aware of from the beginning of the game, try to hard counter it, and still fail/
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On August 12 2011 03:17 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:12 Plansix wrote:On August 12 2011 02:57 Techno wrote:On August 12 2011 01:39 Not_That wrote:On August 12 2011 00:33 Techno wrote:This thread has completely devolved into balance discussion, as expected. However, I am a weak man and will reply. On August 12 2011 00:28 Not_That wrote:
Not only am I going to tell you that some of the Protoss you named are on par with some of the Terrans you named skill-wise, but I am also going to tell you that there are other Protoss players out there with similar skill to the Terran players you named, that neither you nor I have even heard about, but we would have if they were playing Terran instead.
Prove it. The reason you see a lot of cheese / all in coming from Protoss players recently is that, quite frankly, nothing else works. Protoss have a very hard time coming out even into the mid game (12-15 minute), if they can survive that long at all. Protoss win championships. My opinion is this shit doesnt really matter. If it is like this for an extended period of time (a year), then we nerf Terran and buff Protoss, but right now, this talk is wasting time that players should spend trying to over come their difficulties. Don't fucking tell me that you can't. You are making the claim that Protoss players are worse than their Terran player counterparts. I am making the claim that Terran players' performance can be partly attributed to racial differences. I'm just pointing out the fact that the burden of proof falls on you just as much as it does on me. While I could write a long post justifying my point, I'll just say that the win loss ratios are proof enough in my eyes. I find it much easier to believe that a game with 3 vastly different races has some racial differences in it which give edges to certain races, than to believe that for some reason the players that picked a certain race are just inherently worse players than the players who picked the other races. Furthermore I find your request that Blizzard wait a year (!) before deciding it's time to act to be appalling. A year is far, far too long, and far far longer than it took them to patch the game in all past cases. No Im not making the claim that Protoss players are worse than anyone. Where did I mention Terran? I'm saying we don't need Blizzards intervention. You should think that way, it would help you improve more. Noobs in this thread don't even fucking know. If you were all good Masters players and calmly said specific things without over exagerating than maybe I could take you seriously, but you all act like its so obvious that Protoss sucks fucking ass, but from my perspective Protoss is doing just fine. Terran is doing great in the GM leagues and in GSL, but not an evidently ridiculous amount of great. I strongly believe Protoss can be played MUCH better than anyone currently plays Protoss. Until Terrans are defending each mineral line against warped in Zealots,
Until Protoss are manually charging individual Zealots,
Until Protoss are perpetually chronoboosting +3 armour every game (<18:30 bitches),
protoss cant say shit Clearly someone who has never used Zealots or has a limited understanding of how they work. Woops, I cant stay anything until I gain the ability to control 30 zealots individually, my bad. Clearly someone who thinks Protoss is at the peak of their evolution.
No, protoss need to buckle down and come up with some new strats, for sure. Your "advice" on how Protoss should be winning games, however, is useless and adds nothing. Zerg players don't control individual zerglings in a battle. There is not reason for Protoss players to be expected to do so before they can discuss balance.
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On August 12 2011 03:10 WesleyLok wrote:
Protoss players complaining about 1-1-1.... Maybe you shouldn't always 1 gate expand against terran? Pretty sure if Terran 1 rax expanded and you 4 gated the terran would die.
You clearly don't play Protoss, and presumably don't play Terran had a very high level either. 1-1-1 hits at such a delayed timing after an expansion that it is actually BETTER against it to go for an absurdly greedy Nexus timing. 1 base Protoss just DIES to the 1-1-1, as Terran can just set up a contain and expand safely behind it. See: Naniwa vs Thorzain, TSL finals.
MC got destroyed because he's only good at 1-2 base all-ins, and decided to pick the 2nd best player in the gsl IMMVP who is also insanely good. Mvp then picked the 1# player vs protoss. Of course he got destroyed.
Some very obvious flaws here. MC won his first GSL victory off of some clever 1-2 base timings, but from then on has proved himself as a macro player, creating his own 1gate expand into Stargate vs Zerg and promoting clever macro play vs Zerg in general. I don't think I have seen a cheese from MC vs Zerg since his GSL runs.
Inca made it to the finals of a gsl by cheesing everyone he played. Inca has never won a single pvz in his life. Inca got eliminated by a zerg. Seeing as he has a 0% win rate.... no surprise there.
Nobody is arguing over Inca, he is a PvP sniper and is widely to be inferior to most GSL players. He is now in Group A, so I don't understand what you are arguing over here...
Anypro lost to a protoss.
Who the hell is vanvanth?
"Well respected foreigners" are garbage compared to koreans. Look at the mlgs. If a plat protoss lost to a master terran would you be qqing about balance?
Way to miss the point and carefully put together your own argument about completely irrelevant things. Most of the foreigners who come to GSL aren't Protoss, so your point is nil as far as Protoss is concerned, with only Naniwa/SaSe representing 'toss. Also, I don't know what you are getting at about the plat -> masters reference, the skill difference between the Code A Ro32 and Naniwa, who beat MC in a series and does consistently well even against some Koreans, is pretty hard to guage.
Nobody is really arguing about vanvanth or Anypro, it's mostly about Tassadar, MC and Alicia, as well as the 1-1-1 build in particular.
Alicia tried a risky cheese and missed his forcefield. Then he tried to double expand behind it and just straight up died.
Which game are you talking about? vs Keen, vs NaDa, vs who?
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On August 12 2011 03:21 K3Nyy wrote:
Please don't use ladder as a means for balance discussion. Master league and GM league players are terrible relative to Korean pros.
What are you responding to here?
On August 12 2011 03:21 K3Nyy wrote:
Late game Zealots in mineral line is good, but I can't imagine mid game Zealots doing anything. You shouldn't lose a single SCV from Zealots because they can't kill the SCVs fast enough. So unless you're terrible, you will notice it right away. Terran loses some mining time and Protoss just lost a Warp Prism and a few Zealots.
I would be suprised if IMMVP managed to not lose a single SCV to 1 zealot in a warp prism. Let alone 4.
Terran can just push right away with a bigger army or take another base right away and still be on equal terms with Protoss.
You've probably been on the other end of this argument when QQing Terrans say you can't drop against Protoss because youll just lose the Medivac and Protoss will A Move you. So take what you said there, FLIP IT AROUND, and say it to yourself.
I dunno how manually charging individual Zealots will be any different from automatically charging Zealots.
Yea, YOU DONT! Thats my point.
Some people do chrono upgrades every game, though I could see room for improvement.
Me too.
/swish
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Northern Ireland26794 Posts
On August 12 2011 03:18 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote:On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting, actually controlling multiple drops (even though it's rare) etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and require more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote:
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while. This guy is well known for bouncing around threads pouring hate on Protoss players. Given his heavily biased list of Terran Micro practices in comparison to Protoss techniques, its clear where he comes from. (My favorite is Banshee - Marine kiting, this is a hilarious thing to beat your chest about and be proud about. Stalker - marine? Roach - Zealot? No!! Terran micro is more impressive!) He makes no mention of Phoenix either, which are among the most micro-intensive units in the game. Instead of opening a thread like this and allowing such a poster to bash Protoss players and tell them to "step up.", let's not bait flamers like this. (Again take a look at his post history, a good portion of his 200 or so posts a week are patrolling TL for Protoss whine.) Don't indulge him. Protoss is struggling, but we have been here before. If changes are necessary, they will be made. If innovation is required, it will be discovered. (See JYP vs DRG) Either way, we'll rise again and our top players will be much stronger after getting beat up during this period. It's a cycle, we're on the bottom right now.
Is the JYP series with DRG actually worth checking out? I mean it's hard to know when people are trolling or just plain idiotic on these forums but the posts I read about that made out like DRG was playing idiotically
Anyway, I've tried my best to actually discuss things and it seems to get overshadowed by trolls going "MC isn't a good macro player" etc etc, so back to the topic at hand
Phoenix heavy play as the next evolution of the Protoss metagame? I've seen them either be monstrously effective en masse or terrible, but I've been experimenting with phoenix heavy openers to try and blind counter the dreaded 1/1/1
I've yet to manage to tighten the times sufficiently that I feel I can win when somebody doesn't screw up massively. The strength thus far seems to be in delaying them moving out and allow you to buy time for either your one base army to reach solid numbers, or to have second base economy kicking in
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On August 12 2011 03:17 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:15 Toadvine wrote:
You'd think that 4gate vs 4gate is some amazing micro war, when it's just players pulling back hurt Stalkers and focus firing stuff. None of it is particularly difficult in the end.
wtf does that mean? wtf do you think micro is? turning into pure energy and flying inside your computer and becoming one of the units?
Ling/Baneling vs Ling/Baneling in ZvZ isn't any of the things I mentioned, and it makes for some of the most interesting micro in SC2 imo. Marine splits vs Banelings aren't this either. Look at BW Muta micro or Reaver+Shuttle control. These don't only require hand speed and accuracy, but also technique and experience. It's like Tyler said in a recent SotG episode - there was a whole science dedicated to what you could, and could not do with your Shuttle at various points in the game.
Pulling back hurt Stalkers is the most basic micro possible, you can do it with any ranged unit essentially. Some players just control their units really well in general, and that can be impressive, but SC2 really doesn't have a whole lot of interesting micro. Instead we have "amazing Storms/Fungals/EMPs!" in every battle. :/
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On August 12 2011 03:15 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:On August 12 2011 02:47 starbreaker10 wrote:On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT I haven't seen a single player with mind-blowing micro in SC2 yet - only glimpses of brilliance in several games, but no consistent micro monsters. Forcefields and Blink are hardly a measure of top micro players. Blink is basically a "micro-made-easy" spell, and nobody can blink individual Stalkers in groups larger than 15 even near perfect (let alone Blink and target fire optimally and without overkill). Placing Forcefields correctly with smartcasting really isn't anything to get excited about. So no, Protoss unit control really isn't that outstanding at all. Micro of top Terran players is easily comparable if not even better. Think of bio splitting vs Banelings, stutter stepping, elevating bio units that get trapped by FFs, stimming the exact number of units you need instead of all of them, Banshee vs Marine kiting etc. All of those are higher level micro tasks than using spells and requires more handspeed and precision. On the other hand, "strategy" and "timings" that you attributed other races to be notable for are actually the prime properties of Protoss gameplay so far. It's basically how you win games playing standard Protoss - build the correct units and hit the correct timing to attack. There's little else going on in 90% of the games. On August 12 2011 02:52 hysterial wrote:
How can you even compare DRG and Losira to MC. An overhyped team league performer and a code S finalist vs a two time GSL champion.
As for terrans what has Bomber done or even MMA compared to MC?
MVP and Nestea are the only comparable players to MCs acheivements and are probably the only ones you can put ahead of him in terms of stardom.
Achievements are not the subject here. What have Bomber, MMA and even DRG done compared to MC? Played a lot of quality, dynamic high level games recently, something that MC hasn't really done in a while. Yeah man, stutter-stepping, boxing a few units to stim them forward, or picking stuff up with dropships are some really hardcore micro techniques. Seriously, what a joke. You have a point about marine splits, since that's the only real interesting micro in sc2, along with ling/bling wars. But all of this other stuff is completely basic, any race can do it with almost all of their units. You'd think that 4gate vs 4gate is some amazing micro war, when it's just players pulling back hurt Stalkers and focus firing stuff. None of it is particularly difficult in the end.
The whole point is that any race can do it with almost all their units. It's basic in nature (it's a mechanical challenge, not an intellectual one), but essentially that's what micro really is - it's high level when it's done near-perfectly while not slipping up in other areas of the game.
Pulling back and focus firing is a skill that's a lot more difficult to master and do well enough than spellcasting in SC2. 4G vs 4G is actually the finest example of Protoss micro, much more so than Blink or Forcefields (to compare it on a very basic level, just count the actions and precision you need for each).
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