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On August 12 2011 02:24 Bouric wrote:
Seems like protoss gameplay has almost become stagnant as of late. Rarely do you see any unique harass or strats come from protoss anymore. It's almost always still just the typical death-ball strat.
Where are the HT drops? I don't see why this hasn't made an appearance in SC2 yet. You could easily wipe out a whole mineral line or 2 if opponents don't react really quickly.
^^the cost effectiveness of protoss drop harassment is immense, esp if youre talking dropping with HT's. you need 3 bases and a standing army at your bases to pull this off. anything less you will simply die to a bum rush b/c u need those resources and time to defend correctly. another thing, robo's dont have reactors... the production time of a single robo is crucial esp when you splitting it between observers+ colos, and maybe immortals in the early game, and now you want a warp prism. it doesnt work in the mid game whatsoever, esp if your opponent is pressuring or dropping, or god forbid you lose an observer...
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On August 12 2011 02:28 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:26 -Archangel- wrote:On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote:
We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp. This is such a stupid argument. I remember a time when one base all ins vs Zerg were also explained as Zerg kills us late game. Then a couple of pros started to play a macro Terran late game style and it was so far from the truth just as all Zergs claimed at the time. Also, if this is the case then Blizzard still needs to patch the game, as even if there is a 50% winrate in each match-up, if Terran has to win before the X minute mark, the game has deep design flaws.
Maybe you want to reread my post?! I think the meaning of my sentence was pretty clear although I am not a native English speaker.
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On August 12 2011 02:29 starbreaker10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:24 Bouric wrote:
Seems like protoss gameplay has almost become stagnant as of late. Rarely do you see any unique harass or strats come from protoss anymore. It's almost always still just the typical death-ball strat.
Where are the HT drops? I don't see why this hasn't made an appearance in SC2 yet. You could easily wipe out a whole mineral line or 2 if opponents don't react really quickly. ^^the cost effectiveness of protoss drop harassment is immense, esp if youre talking dropping with HT's. you need 3 bases and a standing army at your bases to pull this off. anything less you will simply die to a bum rush b/c u need those resources and time to defend correctly. another thing, robo's dont have reactors... the production time of a single robo is crucial esp when you splitting it between observers+ colos, and maybe immortals in the early game, and now you want a warp prism. it doesnt work in the mid game whatsoever, esp if your opponent is pressuring or dropping, or god forbid you lose an observer...
Perhaps a better way of putting it would be: Protoss have trouble harassing in the early- to mid-game. If you are in PvZ, having options to harass AFTER you've reached 3 bases and the Zerg has already droned up to his/her satisfaction seems far less useful than BFH or whatever else you can use as an opening.
GIVE US REAVERS BACK, BLIZZARD.
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On August 12 2011 02:18 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote:
We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp. What...?! Ghosts counter every protoss unit. Dead serious. How do you lose lategame to Protoss?
Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind.
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On August 12 2011 02:17 MandoRelease wrote:
Fact : A month ago, suddenly protoss became the weakest race and only balance changes can solve that.
Let's not try to be a good TL member and let's keep whining that our dear GSL protoss players are in a slump. I mean come on, there is absolutely no way that the game is balanced when one race is doing very poorly compared to the other two.
All these zergs players telling us to stfu just don't understand what it's like to lose like that. We have the best players and the best strategies because P is obviously the most discovered race, but we still can't do squat because of our shitty units.
TL agrees with that, otherwise they would not let all these bnet-like balance threads open. Whenever Z or T had troubles, a couple of days later it was fixed. It's now been several weeks for P players, and they're still doing poorly. I don't know what additionnal proof you guys need to understand that P needs help.
Why talk about "additional" proof when you've offered no proof at all yet?
On August 12 2011 02:17 MandoRelease wrote:
^^the cost effectiveness of protoss drop harassment is immense, esp if youre talking dropping with HT's. you need 3 bases and a standing army at your bases to pull this off. anything less you will simply die to a bum rush b/c u need those resources and time to defend correctly. another thing, robo's dont have reactors... the production time of a single robo is crucial esp when you splitting it between observers+ colos, and maybe immortals in the early game, and now you want a warp prism. it doesnt work in the mid game whatsoever, esp if your opponent is pressuring or dropping, or god forbid you lose an observer...
I suppose you meant "cost" rather than "cost-effectiveness".
Unfortunately, all of that is theorycrafting. You can not present an evidence in WORDS that the Protoss cannot utilize more harassment-oriented play. You can only keep exploring all the options in the game, or decide not to.
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reavers? why reavers when you can play terran and have HELLIONS
they dont even cost gas and never bug out
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On August 12 2011 02:33 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:18 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote:
We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp. What...?! Ghosts counter every protoss unit. Dead serious. How do you lose lategame to Protoss? Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind.
literally huh
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Hey.
I am not gonna touch on 111, coz there are ways around it. Best way i've found is to not let him do it unharassed. Change it up, force the mistake (I found blink stalkers worked well)
Other than that I agree with 2 of the original points and would like the convo to come back to this
Protoss has no innovators
Protoss has no real options for innovation.
These are not the same points.
I've recently taken to playing as risky as anything against T just to give myself an edge coz they expect standard play from me. I have a 1 1 1 build of my own I use that exploits terran's playstyles atm but thats just it. Its exploiting a weakness in their play. It doesnt actually counter anything,, and insta loses to 1 1 1 (  )
Otherwise, I try to come up with counters to the common ladder buids as well, and the problem here is that they don't transition well. I mean, I am a diamond Protoss, and I have lost to a silver using roach infestor, and ALMOST lost to a gold who went infestor ling (which i hard countered) who repop'd into roach infestor off 2 bases (ONLY TWO. i scouted everywhere), and held my 200 pop push. All my zealots became useless with the repop into roaches. I mean useless. They were 3 3 1 vs 2(attack) 1 armor roach infestor with minor broodlord support
Basically, I have to prep to counter a half dozen builds before I am sure whats coming. Yes, our prep builds are fairly standard coz they need to be. If they aren't, we just die. Protoss get's rid of the scouting worker the latest of all races, unless we;'re lucky with a zealot.
Other than that, would love to chat to some guys who've been innovating as well to share builds, and chat about this, coz 2 brains better than one, but i've found without map control, which we can't keep without DT's in PvT and air units in PvZ, (both of which die to fairly large timing windows), we're in shit.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
How to 'fix' Protoss though? I'm unsure if the race is definitively in need of a buff, at least for now but really what avenues have not yet been explored?
Warp Prisms are far, far too fragile and just not viable until you have speed on them. In addition the Protoss' drop options are weak. Make Prism's speed upgrade a bit slower, but give it to them from the start? Even if you get into a mineral line, they can just pull SCVs/Drones for little or no damage. DTs can't get more than a few hits off before a decent player scans and has his bio in range, chargelots targetting means they'll run off at a marine 20 miles away rather than kill SCVs!
Again the entire problem of the race is due to the Warpgate mechanic, our tier 1 units are weak as hell until upgraded to compensate for the ability to warp in anywhere. Due to their individual weaknesses they are also less useful in drops, in defending drops in small groups and in defending all-ins without perfect forcefields
Does this entire mechanic need a re-work for HoTS? It'll screw up a lot of our current openers but I'd much rather compete with equally good tier 1 units, plus it would finally make people shut up about our race require 'no macro ability'
Stalkers are only good because of blink micro, not the most taxing thing in the world but to rely on blinking everything well kind of shits on the fallacy that "Protoss is the A-move race". Sentries are pretty damn good I'm not going to lie, but it's not as if Protoss can do anything without them. Pre-Charge Zealots are next to useless without forcefields to prevent kiting from bio armies.
For me the only genuinely under-utilised units in the Protoss arsenal (in terms of being a significant part of an army composition rather than just a few for harass), are phoenixes and carriers. There's a multitude of good reasons as to why Carriers are rarely seen, namely their INSANE build time, but they are a strong unit when used correctly I guess.
Phoenix experimentation phase seems to already have started, with I think it was Sage using some interesting funky builds, so I'm interested to wait and see how that turns out
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On August 12 2011 02:33 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:18 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote:
We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp. What...?! Ghosts counter every protoss unit. Dead serious. How do you lose lategame to Protoss? Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind.
I dont see many PvT get to 3-4 bases....I think thats what is the majority of the argument here is that PvT is over by mid game and that its strongly favored towards terran
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On August 11 2011 15:46 Sukari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 15:40 DarkRise wrote:
I think the large Death ball against zerg kinda died because of fungal or drop plays or early roach/ling aggression. I remember when there was that time where some Zerg player was saying that a 200/200 zerg ball against a 200/200 protoss ball will mean that the protoss player loses like 20 units and zerg will lose all (a bit of exaggeration maybe). But hey, zerg players came up with an answer. I'm sure as the game goes on protoss players will continue to come up with more innovative/aggressive/creative strategies. Maybe? Or they can all just cannon rush.
From what I have been seeing, in reality, a 200/200 Zerg Ball always wins, Zergling, Infestor, Broods are pretty good.
I remember the CatZ interview of Dustin Browder, and he brought up one of the big problems of Protoss in which Blizzard is looking to rectify, the lack of a proper raiding unit.
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Regarding PvZ, I think it's just a slump period where protoss will catch up soon enough. Or in any case, it's hard to point at something that's alarming.
Regarding PvT we've seen a huge step back in the metagame to kindergarden play in these past weeks on GSL. Everytime a terran feels he is in trouble he seems to retard into 1-base mode and frankly it's very hard to deal with for protoss. MC, Alicia and now Tassadar all fell to this.
Watch especially tassadar versus yoda on crossfire. Tassadar knows it's coming and doesn't want to expand. He just wants to crush the attack or at least come out even. Yoda even builds a CC but tassadar is still totally crushed. Sure, if he had had a colossus he would've been better off but he had no way of knowing if it was safe to get one. He thought he was commited to just making units off his current tech and preparing for the attack.
So why did he get so slaughtered? MC and Alicia didn't stand a chance either. Keep in mind that these are two of the very best PvT players and they have very good micro. Still, the skill it takes for a terran to have a decent win percentage chance against someone like MC while doing a 1-base attack is so good that terran players would be fools not to do it in a tournament like GSL where there's money involved.
Terran flexibility and the immense power of the marine make it tough. Flexibility is a problem because you have to count the banshees, you have to take cloak into account, you have to count the marines and the siege tanks and prepare perfectly. Terran just has to throw a dice and a-move.
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Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
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Terran does very all in builds vs Toss because toss is way better in the macro late game currently. Might as well realize your own strengths and take advantage of it like the koreans have been.
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I don't understand how some of you honestly think that balance shifts weekly in SC2.
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On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
It's funny because MC is INCREDIBLY AMAZING, he just loses anyways.
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On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
He gets knocked out in the Ro32 in the hardest tourney in the world and he's slipping. You people are retarded. Hell oGs should probably just drop him, he has no chance anymore right?
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This is just a period, things change. Do people have long term memory problems or something? I remember not long ago terrans were complaining about PvT, and zerg was considered the weakest race.
Now it's flipped and protoss are complaining? Just give it time. I can promise you, with 100% certainty, that in 2 months it'll all be different and then maybe terran is the weakest, or zerg. I'll just go ahead and say it, its the METAGAME, and it's ruining ESPORTS. No, but seriously the game just changes, just roll with it.
We dont need balance changes, more units would be nice just for variety and gameplay, but the game will fix itself.
It's like a pendulum of balance, but once we get to one side people somehow forget we were ever on the other side, it's incredible.
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On August 12 2011 02:37 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 02:33 eourcs wrote:On August 12 2011 02:18 Shiori wrote:On August 12 2011 01:51 Wasteweiser wrote:
We do 1/1/1 because we're sick of being super hardcountered by protoss' late game army comp. What...?! Ghosts counter every protoss unit. Dead serious. How do you lose lategame to Protoss? Maybe you should ask Hasuobs, who literally never loses PvT once he gets 3-4 bases and templar out, even if he is ridiculously far behind. I dont see many PvT get to 3-4 bases....I think thats what is the majority of the argument here is that PvT is over by mid game and that its strongly favored towards terran
He's saying that you can't lose to protoss lategame as terran because of ghosts and i'm saying that's not the case......
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On August 12 2011 02:40 fighter2_40 wrote:
Protoss needs a star.
Nestea is the best player in the world
DRG and Losira are huge ballers
Terran has MVP, Bomber, MMA, and more
Toss only has Huk (no disrespect, he's baller), who hasn't performed at GSL as much as foreign tournaments, and MC, who is slipping. Alicia was basically hot for one season and is now getting unremarkable results.
^^^ the protoss "stars" arnt really notable for their ground breaking strategies or macro, its all hype about their control and micro which is great but can only get you so far, where as the other races stars are notable for their strategy, macro builds, and timings... ex. the best force fields ive ever seen from alicia and MC were in losses..... landslide losses TT
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EPT
