EPTProtoss in GSL August - Page 6
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Zaphid
Czech Republic1860 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: the 1-1-1 tvp build is just slaying protoss atm, there's not much to it, which is tough to watch, but until protoss learn to deal with the build, they will continue to get slaughtered. let's think about this for a minute, before the last month. pvt or, tvp metagame was favoring this 1 gate/rax expand and playing into the lategame where it becomes a war of HT v ghosts, however you can punish this build on a terran side of things by doing this 1-1-1 and destroying any protoss who decides to 1 gate FE, so i think the next logical step is for protoss to start going back to 1 gate or 2 gate robo and not expand until observer is out. in reality, this is the real problem for protoss imo, not the imbalance, but just the shift in metagame that protoss players need to adapt to. Delaying your expo actually makes you have LESS units by the time the push comes, it's that bad. You can see that in Tyler's 3gate robo+forges, very safe but also sets you behind against any FE builds. 2rax is there to punish 1gate FE, not 1/1/1. If there is ever an allin that has more than 50% success rate for months, it will destroy the matchup unless you are confident you can outplay your opponent in the later stages with higher probability, because there's no reason NOT to do it. The other issue is that with siege tanks, you don't even have to attack, you can just sit in front of his main and expand behind it, because there's almost no way for 1 base toss to amass a large enough force to make trouble in your main. The build has been around since beta, but it was polished to a mirror shine only recently. I also believe the maps were made favorable, Crevasse made it impossible to do and both Daybreak and Dual Sight aren't exactly huge. | ||
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Divergence
Canada363 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:44 HolyArrow wrote: I feel like the elephant in the room that many people are ignoring is that the 1-1-1 all-in: 1. Has been around for a long, long time. See Genius vs. Rain, GSL Season 3 Open. This first point kind of invalidates the "Wait for players to figure it out, give it some time" argument. 2. Has a 100% winrate against every Protoss since last GSL's Up/Down matches. One hunded. Percent. Can someone name an all-in that has worked 100% of the time for this long a period? Furthermore, I'd like to quote Beyonder (my favorite mod on TL, he's so friendly :D) on this, and I hope he doesn't mind, but I feel like he's very credible and says this very well: Races could always do something, learn, adapt. But this one I feel is truly impossible to counter in a healthy way. Havent felt this way about any build up to this point. Im not saying the races are imbalanced, but this build is destroying a matchup in a game that Ive cared about and watched for 13 years. It has not been stopped and that is when people even know its coming (which is kind if hard, as you cannot scout). And I believe I have great insight in the mechanics of the game; believe in my opinion. IIRC he plays both Toss and Zerg at high master's level. Wow, post of the thread here. I'm kinda sad now. I really hope this thing blows over but right now all I have is despair. I'm worried that the community will overlook this problem and sheepishly brand it as "mere whining." TL needs to be reminded that not all balance discussion is whining. | ||
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Elwar
953 Posts
This is where I see most protoss struggling badly. Drops. Drops are killing protoss in the midgame. Protoss has the slowest reactionary units in the game (stimmed units + zerg units, much faster obviously), gateway units in small numbers are terrible against either zerg or terran (sidenote: which is why protoss' harassment ability sucks and/or relies on the opponent making mistakes), and protoss have no magic bullet response like the planetary fortress. Cannons are not the answer, they're expensive, can't cover much area, and are torn down so fast by marauders or roaches to the point where they don't matter unless you build a prohibitive amount. DTs are good at base defence...unless they bring detection and/or scan, in which case they're huuuuuge resource sinks. Obviously protoss' shitty ability to defend themselves is countered by the army being quite strong when it is actually together and properly utilised, but its becoming harder and harder to get to that point as terrans and zergs learn to harass more effectively. I have no ideal solution, but this is a major problem as I see it. We saw I believe some protoss (Tails? IIRC) have a bunch of zealots, like 5-6, and an archon at his main base and the terran (Taeja?) simply chose to drop right on top of them and the warpins he knew would happen. Thats 20+ supply of units at ONE base for defence, and they didn't do dick. | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:47 Sabu113 wrote: Feel like this thread is a touch redundant. I think a better question to ask: Is the GSL still viable. With such a strong terran lock on the tournament will it remain watchable for the remainder of the year? We're not even at least seeing zergs eat into the numbers. edit: can't help myself 8 months? I remember it being used in beta, putting it closer to 15 months. | ||
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OnFiRe888
United States629 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:48 Zealot Lord wrote: how does 2 gate robo help hold off this build better? its not really the problem of scouting it. you'll have even less units because when the attack hits at 9.30~10.00'ish, a typical 1 gate FE will have more than paid for its nexus and more. even with a blind counter against this build, chances of you winning depend on mainly 2 things: you playing out everything perfectly, and your opponent making some sort of mistake (not QQ'ing, but thats the truth at the current moment). if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build? | ||
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shinyA
United States473 Posts
The problem is both of those units are never bad against P. Ghosts against Z aren't good 100% of the time like they are against P. No matter what unit composition the Protoss goes. Ghosts are a hard counter to Protoss. I think it needs a change, maybe have EMP NOT take away shields, only energy. For the infestor, Protoss players were saying how good it is for so long but Zerg players stuck to Hydra/Roach/Corrupter which obviously isn't good. As soon as they started using the infestor they started winning everything. The problem is, like the ghost, the infestor has no counter. It is literally good in every situation against Protoss. The infestor is a hard counter to the entire Protoss race. Why does a unit have the ability to fungal ( which is like plague + maelstrom .. ), drop infested terrans which actually do a ton of damage for no energy, and if all else fails they can neural all the high tech units of the P. Those 2 units are too good, there are no downfalls to getting them. They are good against Protoss 100% of the time and are incredibly powerful with zero risk. As soon as T and Z players started using them, no P players did well. For those saying "adapt or die", what do we adapt? It's not as if we're not using our units, on an average P probably uses more units per game than any other race. We don't have a ghost or infestor that we just aren't using. Our unit compositions are never unbeatable, Protoss doesn't have the advantage at any stage of the game. Before it was pretty much agreed that P had to get to the late game and if we got there we were almost unbeatable. But now our compositions are just weak at every stage of the game. Our 200/200 army is the weakest right now IMO. Ghost/Bio and Infestor/Blord counter just about every composition that we have and T and Z can get them way faster than we can even max. | ||
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:44 HolyArrow wrote: 2. Has a 100% winrate against every Protoss since last GSL's Up/Down matches. One hunded. Percent. Can someone name an all-in that has worked 100% of the time for this long a period? hongun beat ganzi with vr all-in against 1/1/1 in GSTL. | ||
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:55 OnFiRe888 wrote: if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build? You've shown no proof of anything. EVERY build protoss has done has died to it, they aren't just 1 gate expo. 3 gate stargate, 1 base phoenix, 3 gate robo, 1 gate fe, 3 gate fe you name it. | ||
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
1. Early game - if you aren't going for 1 base aggression you have to be very very carefull about Z/T timings, because protoss production kicks in later than Z/T. 2. Late game - protoss can be abused by great mobility of bio+medivacs or muta/ling and even roach, and you need excellent scouting and right composition to defend those attacks while being extremly cautious about moving out, because T/Z army can avoid your army and they should always win base race (terran due to flying buildings and better direct dps, zerg due to having more bases and moving faster) Those are 2 things i find hardest about playing protoss in general and i haven't seen optimal solution to any of them. Even people like MC can defend 10 drops like a boss but 11'th will come and kill 2 tech buildings/probes/deny upgrades force your army back, leave you vunerable in other locations and give time to terran/zerg. On August 11 2011 17:56 shinyA wrote: Ghosts are a hard counter to Protoss The infestor is a hard counter to the entire Protoss race While i kinda agree with ghost being too good against protoss, i don't think infestors are an issue at all. There are 3 good ways to deal with infestors: Small blink stalker groups, Colossi wihhth range and good FF's, and the obvious one - HT. I don't see people dying to infestors unless they don't scout them and move out, but it's the same with void rays for example. Player going roach/ling needs anti air, and you need anti caster to deal with infestors. HT can 1 shot 4 infestors instantly, and don't forget you can use warp prism micro if you really cant get to them. | ||
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OnFiRe888
United States629 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:52 Zaphid wrote: Delaying your expo actually makes you have LESS units by the time the push comes, it's that bad. You can see that in Tyler's 3gate robo+forges, very safe but also sets you behind against any FE builds. 2rax is there to punish 1gate FE, not 1/1/1. If there is ever an allin that has more than 50% success rate for months, it will destroy the matchup unless you are confident you can outplay your opponent in the later stages with higher probability, because there's no reason NOT to do it. The other issue is that with siege tanks, you don't even have to attack, you can just sit in front of his main and expand behind it, because there's almost no way for 1 base toss to amass a large enough force to make trouble in your main. The build has been around since beta, but it was polished to a mirror shine only recently. I also believe the maps were made favorable, Crevasse made it impossible to do and both Daybreak and Dual Sight aren't exactly huge. that is true you should expand, i normally do a 2 gate robo into 2 observers, into nexus @ 6 min, into fastest possible robo bay if i see terran take a gas w/ my initial scout. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
Spoilers for Ro16 Tassadar vs. Yoda Code A: + Show Spoiler + Tassadar had an interesting game 2 where he had basically beaten the 1/1/1 but made some huge judgment errors that cost him the game. The phoenix opener did a multitude of things. It constantly scouted the Terran base to check for any multitude of variations on the 1/1/1. It denied Banshee harass. It allowed the Protoss to stay a little more even on 1 base income by killing workers and more importantly, Mules. It forced the Terran to stay in their base and allowed the Protoss to pick an area to engage, allowing the Protoss to engage early rather then at their own front door. The Phoenixes dealt with the Banshee in battle and helped negate Siege fire briefly. I think Blink Stalkers work in a similar way. They allow you engage, retreat, and re-engage and immobile army to slowly chip away at its strength as long as you can control the map and engage early which you should be able to do with the Stalker's mobility. Maybe even drop play with a robotics after a 1gate FE would work. I'm sure others have also done something similar but WhiteRa's warp-prism drop / warp-in timed perfectly to hit their mineral line right as the Terran army leaves their base is great at buying time to get more out of the expansion. I just feel like an optimized Phoenix opener or PvT 1gate FE Blink Stalker opener would work. | ||
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Orpheusz
Australia210 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:55 OnFiRe888 wrote: if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build? You think these toss that have probably been non-stop practising vs this build for the last month or so haven't tried fast collo? It doesn't work; you don't have enough gas units to take out banshees, siege tank/marine will chew through your zealots and you're left with naked collosus, I've tried MANY times. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:55 OnFiRe888 wrote: if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build? 1gate fe into a fast robo is almost as fast as a straight up 2gate robo into 1base colosuss opening. Also, why the hell would 1gate fe be unsafe against a build that attacks you 5+ minutes after the nexus has gone down, which means that the nexus actually has paid for itself? 1gate fe dies to a well executed 2rax build, but vs everything else it's perfectly safe. | ||
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quiet noise
599 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:55 OnFiRe888 wrote: if you get 2 gate robo, you will have a robo bay down faster than a 1 gate FE, that's just the fact... also, defending 1-1-1 reminds me of bunker rushing in gsl season 2, everybody was terrible @ defending @ first, but then people got better, bunker rushing seemed soo impossibly hard to stop, just like this build, there's no doubt in my mind that protoss will get better in defending. think of it this way, when you're doing a 1 gate FE, you're basically going for a really risky build, an economic cheese if you will, people don't wuite understand how risky it is, because we see it so often and protoss get away with it, how do you expect to hold off a well planned, well executed timing attack if you do such a risky build? Sorry but its just impossible for Protoss to handle the Raven/Siege tank/banshee composition at that point in the game. it just destroys anything a protoss player can put out. stop saying we need more time, this build has been around since gsl 1 and the only counter used to be 4gate. dont you think the pro gamers who play this game 10 hours a day would have tried everything by now? you think there is a build that they just forgot to try? you think they actually forgot to try fast colossus? i dont know what to say | ||
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OnFiRe888
United States629 Posts
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TheSilverfox
Sweden1928 Posts
GSL January: Code S: 9 (28,13%) Code A: 9 (28,13%) GSL March: Code S: 9 (28,13%) Code A: 6 (18,95%) GSL May: Code S: 10 (31,25%) Code A: 12 (37,5%) GSL July: Code S: 9 (28,13%) Code A: 11 (34,38%) GSL August: Code S: 8 (25%) Code A: 9 (28,13%) How it looks right now for the upcoming GSL with spoilers from GSL August: + Show Spoiler + Ro8 Code A: 1 Up & Down: 3 Safe in Code S: 1 Unknown fate in Code S: 4 Payers safe in Code S+Code A next season: 10 (10/48 - 20,83% - 32 Code S and 16 Code A) Maximum amount of protoss players in Code S next season is: 9/10 (10 if a Protoss wins MLG Raleigh) Let us assume that each race gets appr. 1/3 of the 16 remaining Code A spots (5P, 5Z, 6T) next season we will have a GSL (Code A+S) that will have the following racial balance: 30 Terran (46,88%) 19 Zerg (29,69%) 15 Protoss (23,44%) If not Protoss wins the Up & Down and also takes a lot of the 16 Code A spots the next GSL will be the worst in the history when it comes to representation in Code S and GSL total - even worse than Zergs representaion in GSL May. | ||
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Modernist
United States89 Posts
I'm talking about game 2 on Crossfire where Tassadar went for fast stargate with 4 phoenix harassing and containing Yoda. This delayed the push enough for Tassadar to expand, or even tech to Colossus or Templar. Unfortunately, he did neither and instead went mass gateway units off 1 base, all the way up to the 15 minute mark. So he died quite easily. | ||
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StaplerPhone
United States813 Posts
On August 11 2011 17:50 OnFiRe888 wrote: in my opinion, nani should've never let those bunkers get up, you have to be PREPARED when facing this build when the terran even moves out you should have at least 1 collosus and 2nd halfway done. naniwa's downfall that game was letting the bunkers get up, that push is 100% tougher to hold with bunkers, you HAVE to attack before the bunkers or else you do the alicia move and counter, which almost never works =( But wouldn't rushing to collosus mean you have a tiny ground force? And since you have no thermal lance yet considering its takes roughly 2 collosus build times to get out, I don't think stopping the bunkers from going up is plausible. | ||
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