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On July 19 2011 02:33 Juicyfruit wrote:
Well, people overestimate the effect of armor and underestimate the effect of HP/level, even for early game.
At level 3, HP/level still gives you a nice 30 extra HP whereas assuming against full armor pen AD, u'll still reduce their attacks by maybe 6-10 damage a pop.
The problem with HP in lane is that its value is very little while if you have high armour regen becomes much more useful since the time it takes to regen every auto hit is drastically reduced.
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On July 19 2011 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 02:33 Juicyfruit wrote:
Well, people overestimate the effect of armor and underestimate the effect of HP/level, even for early game.
At level 3, HP/level still gives you a nice 30 extra HP whereas assuming against full armor pen AD, u'll still reduce their attacks by maybe 6-10 damage a pop. The problem with HP in lane is that its value is very little while if you have high armour regen becomes much more useful since the time it takes to regen every auto hit is drastically reduced.
I understand that, but "drastically reduced is a little of an overstatement". Even assuming the ideal value, it's little more than 15% physical damage reduction (most likely less). You'd be taking around 200 worth of physical damage to get the same padding as 30 extra HP, which is two cycles of autoattack from both enemies.
If you start with over 25HP/5 (SoS factored in) with an additional 0.9 every level, well let's just say favoring armor over HP/level would maybe give you 5 seconds less downtime after taking 4 pokes. It's not insignificant, but would it really make much of a difference for laning?
As you said, the most important thing is to be tanky enough so that when you engage, you are winning that engagement, and it's going to be more or less the same regardless whether you pick armor or HP/level beyond level 3.
If a character isn't using defense masteries, then I think armor can be a bigger deal for reducing minion aggro. However, with 21-defense it's not as much of a big deal.
Moreover, there's the issue of mana to worry about, because until she has her philo stone she can't cycle through her combo more than a couple of times. Add to that the liability of having a lanemate that's squishier than you, and that's why I think there's a point at which the armor won't make much of a difference either way.
There are other factors to consider, and I'm sure I have not thought it thoroughly. Just give HP/level seals a try and let me know how it works out.
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Flat MR kinda diminishes on Leona because you already have a crapload of MR on demand from W. And in lane...you have like a regrowth...so at max supports will harass you for a third of your hp if you pop w upon seeing them coming, which kinda equates to chilling for ~20s in lane to be back at full. In foresight the extra MR lategame is probably more useful. But to each his own - and I can see the reasoning behind your argument,
HP/Lvl is good, tbh I only run armor seals for more tower diving.
If you're not getting kills you're doing it right.
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I think Leona was mis-categorised as a tank. She's really a support character: all she has to offer in a team fight are her passive and her CC train. Especially mid-to-late game, you just don't get targeted if you build for survivability.
I've been moving away from survivability and more towards items that benefit the team. Standard opening with Regen pendant -> Philo Stone & Boots -> Kindlegem -> Merc Treads -> Shurelia's, then into Aegis of the Legion. After that an Emblem of Valor -> Stark's if you're being ignored and have a physical-heavy team. If the match drags on I might even consider a Will of the Ancients for your AP characters.
If you are being targeted, then you'll have to put some priority into armor or mres to endure more and take more advantage of your CC. Glacial Shroud is nice but optional (depends on enemy team comp) if you already have a Shurelia's, CD reduction blues and some CD masteries. Good defensive items (because they play nice with your team) are Frozen Heart and Randuin's.
I can see a Trinity Force build being fairly murderous in early and mid-game, but it really peters out in late game. You have to be paired with a strong bot lane and a team that can translate a small advantage into map control to really work.
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Well she's fairly farm independent I think. You just act as a buffer in teamfights, being vigilant about peeling but capable of threatening the squishies with a cc which means you can present yourself as a target to soak up a couple of attacks, but nothing too crippling.
The important thing is that the carries can't just run past you because then you can just Q->stun them
She is kind of like Shen, but overall better minus the global ult, and her kit lets her play out like Shen without the amount of farm Shen requires to be tanky enough to do anything.
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Anyone else feel like her ratios are piss poor? I've run her a couple times in this free week, and any AP items at all just feel like a complete waste. She has her stuns, but I agree that mid/late game there's just no reason to target her at all because you aren't outputting much damage nor are you being much of a pain in their ass.
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>.> Her baseline burst is crazy good with her passive, and three of them are AoE, meaning she's definitely doing her share of the damage, but it's too much of a pain in the ass to stop her at the same time.
She doesn't scale with damage or AP at all, but there's always the choice of going heavy-CDR / triforce or warmogs.
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AP is mostly wasted on Leona, agreed. Sheen -> Triforce builds allow her to put out more respectable damage by mid-game, but this doesn't scale well into late-game. If you're past the 30 minute mark, the gold you spent on those items isn't going to be doing a lot of good.
While you could build her with damage items that scale better, Leona doesn't have synergy with any damage stats. It's a bit like building AD on Soraka, Janna or Sona: you can, and if you're fed enough you could even win games with it (I've seen it happen), but you would do a much better job with a ranged carry.
The baseline damage on Leona's abilities is good and her AP ratios are bad, so the only decent way to buff her ability damage is with Magic Pen (like old Annie) and CDR. It's hard to build magic pen though (limited itemisation), and I find the CC component (and applying the passive) of Leona's abilities to be more important, so I favour CDR.
As for not targeting you if you don't do damage- that's why I've been building Aegis of the Legion and other aura items. Your gold gives your team more benefit if it's spent on helping champions that get more use out of stats than you.
Leona's a lot of fun to play (love CCing New Tryndamere to death), but I don't think she's very good. 
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On July 28 2011 00:07 Black Paper Moon wrote:
I think Leona was mis-categorised as a tank. She's really a support character: all she has to offer in a team fight are her passive and her CC train. Especially mid-to-late game, you just don't get targeted if you build for survivability.
I've been moving away from survivability and more towards items that benefit the team. Standard opening with Regen pendant -> Philo Stone & Boots -> Kindlegem -> Merc Treads -> Shurelia's, then into Aegis of the Legion. After that an Emblem of Valor -> Stark's if you're being ignored and have a physical-heavy team. If the match drags on I might even consider a Will of the Ancients for your AP characters.
If you are being targeted, then you'll have to put some priority into armor or mres to endure more and take more advantage of your CC. Glacial Shroud is nice but optional (depends on enemy team comp) if you already have a Shurelia's, CD reduction blues and some CD masteries. Good defensive items (because they play nice with your team) are Frozen Heart and Randuin's.
I can see a Trinity Force build being fairly murderous in early and mid-game, but it really peters out in late game. You have to be paired with a strong bot lane and a team that can translate a small advantage into map control to really work.
Supports generally have heals. Leona has none :\
Leona's best as a CDR/aurabot tank that sits next to your carries and stuns shit while giving them tons of auras. That said, her ulti is pretty strong as a initiation or a follow up to a stronger initiation like Amumu. Imo they should either increase the stun/slow duration on the ult, OR make the aoe larger (not both)
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Oh My God I LOVE THIS CHAMP! I bought her today because I wanted to actually try to master a tank/support char and she seemed cool. Damn her abilities are just awesome! Love them all. 2nd game I had some moments of pure awesome. I can't wait to be better with her!
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United States37500 Posts
On August 27 2011 04:38 Slaughter wrote:
Oh My God I LOVE THIS CHAMP! I bought her today because I wanted to actually try to master a tank/support char and she seemed cool. Damn her abilities are just awesome! Love them all. 2nd game I had some moments of pure awesome. I can't wait to be better with her!
You may be the first person I've met that's happy with Leona, haha.
glgl
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On August 27 2011 04:53 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 04:38 Slaughter wrote:
Oh My God I LOVE THIS CHAMP! I bought her today because I wanted to actually try to master a tank/support char and she seemed cool. Damn her abilities are just awesome! Love them all. 2nd game I had some moments of pure awesome. I can't wait to be better with her! You may be the first person I've met that's happy with Leona, haha. glgl
Its not that she´s bad...
Its just that there is no lane for her...
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United States37500 Posts
On August 27 2011 05:08 Delicious.Cake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 04:53 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 27 2011 04:38 Slaughter wrote:
Oh My God I LOVE THIS CHAMP! I bought her today because I wanted to actually try to master a tank/support char and she seemed cool. Damn her abilities are just awesome! Love them all. 2nd game I had some moments of pure awesome. I can't wait to be better with her! You may be the first person I've met that's happy with Leona, haha. glgl Its not that she´s bad... Its just that there is no lane for her...
Bot lane is only lane for her. She might be ok now that supports don't heal up the wazoo.
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On August 27 2011 05:25 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 05:08 Delicious.Cake wrote:On August 27 2011 04:53 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 27 2011 04:38 Slaughter wrote:
Oh My God I LOVE THIS CHAMP! I bought her today because I wanted to actually try to master a tank/support char and she seemed cool. Damn her abilities are just awesome! Love them all. 2nd game I had some moments of pure awesome. I can't wait to be better with her! You may be the first person I've met that's happy with Leona, haha. glgl Its not that she´s bad... Its just that there is no lane for her... Bot lane is only lane for her. She might be ok now that supports don't heal up the wazoo.
Healing is dead. The new era of supports is now utility. :D Maybe Leona will now be viable as a support?
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she still basically just begs the question "why not taric?" though. He's got better AP scaling and as far as I can tell is just better until level 6, at which point, I guess I can see the appeal of Leona.
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On August 27 2011 05:31 Mogwai wrote:
she still basically just begs the question "why not taric?" though. He's got better AP scaling and as far as I can tell is just better until level 6, at which point, I guess I can see the appeal of Leona.
DX The real appeal to Leona is the Valkyrie skin...nothing related to her gameplay.
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just need a Valkyrie Taric skin then IMO.
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On August 27 2011 05:31 Mogwai wrote:
she still basically just begs the question "why not taric?" though. He's got better AP scaling and as far as I can tell is just better until level 6, at which point, I guess I can see the appeal of Leona.
Leona has an ult.
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Taric does too. It gives your whole team a free 15/35/45 AD and makes you unkillable. I honestly don't get why people hate Taric's ult so much.
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On August 27 2011 05:45 Mogwai wrote:
Taric does too. It gives your whole team a free 15/35/45 AD and makes you unkillable. I honestly don't get why people hate Taric's ult so much.
Taric's ult doesn't have that "wow" factor that most ults have. Yeah, you personally become almost unkillable, but your team gets some flat bonus and your model shines a bit. Not very impressive. Compared to many other champions who drop lazers from the sky or teddy bears or spin around or what not. Obviously, the ult is still useful in some situations. It just isn't the best thing ever.
Taric's other skills are clearly his bread and butter. The ult is just icing on the cake.
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EPT
