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On June 10 2011 03:38 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:34 VIB wrote:On June 10 2011 03:27 Jibba wrote:On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote:On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby. Then Blizzard is at fault as well. That doesn't detract from the fact that Blizzard has been known to ban for macro keys and that SS shouldn't promote them in a competitive game. Even at the bronze level, SC2 is a player versus player competition. Number of people banned for macros like the ones grubby show in the video, on all history of blizzard: zero They cannot detect short macros like this on their end. They'll only ban you for long term bots that rolls for hours. That's just not true. Blizzard has done several banwaves during WoW where people using G15 and Nostromo macros were banned, and they did it in BW and they've done it in SC2. Their official stance is that it's a bannable offense, regardless of whether it's 100% automated or 5% automated. No, not for the kinds of macros grubby is showing. People have only been banned for making macros that run for a long time repeatedly. Grubby isn't showing any of those.
Look, this is very simple. On a company as big as Blizzard, it's very common that the right hand doesn't know that what the left hand is doing. Blizzard executives wants to make deals with keyboard manufacturers because they make money from it. Regardless of what the software does, whatever the selling point is, they'll promote it. But GMs have simple orders to ban botters and have no idea what executives think. So they'll just try to ban whatever they can detect. Tho simple macros like the ones grubby showed, won't be detected and won't get banned. If you use it to make something to complex tho, you might get banned.
Knowing this. Steelseries has the support from Blizzard's sales people to sell their keyboard. So they advertise it's selling points. They are careful to not go too deep into stuff that might get you in trouble. So they only show simple macros which won't get you banned from bnet.
Blizzard, Steelseries and Grubby are all partly guilty for random people you encounter in the ladder using macros to beat you. Both Steelseries and Grubby are only doing this because they know they're backed by blizzard. Blizzard started all this. And people using those simple macros won't get banned.
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On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote:
...
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed.
Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race.
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On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote:
How is using simple keyboard macros cheating?
To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. Grubby is not the one to blame here.
It's cheating because for it to be 'safe' and 'fine' everyone has to do it.
Judging by Grubby Grubby's performance in the NASL, it's not like his macros helped him gain 'an advantage', but what if he was undefeated? This would set a bad precedent.
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Pretty poor by Steelseries. I'd hope Grubby doesn't use these in tournaments...
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I'm pretty sure that he isn't even using this keyboard, as far as I know he has a 6gv2.
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On June 10 2011 03:58 VIB wrote:
No, not for the kinds of macros grubby is showing. People have only been banned for making macros that run for a long time repeatedly. Grubby isn't showing any of those.
Look, this is very simple. On a company as big as Blizzard, it's very common that the right hand doesn't know that what the left hand is doing. Blizzard executives wants to make deals with keyboard manufacturers because they make money from it. Regardless of what the software does, whatever the selling point is, they'll promote it. But GMs have simple orders to ban botters and have no idea what executives think. So they'll just try to ban whatever they can detect. Tho simple macros like the ones grubby showed, won't be detected and won't get banned. If you use it to make something to complex tho, you might get banned.
Knowing this. Steelseries has the support from Blizzard's sales people to sell their keyboard. So they advertise it's selling points. They are careful to not go too deep into stuff that might get you in trouble. So they only show simple macros which won't get you banned from bnet.
Blizzard, Steelseries and Grubby are all partly guilty for random people you encounter in the ladder using macros to beat you. Both Steelseries and Grubby are only doing this because they know they're backed by blizzard. Blizzard started all this. And people using those simple macros won't get banned.
And again you are wrong. If you macro ANYTHING - INCLUDING CHAT - you can be detected, found, and banned. AND YOU WILL BE. People have lost their accounts for even two keypress actions mapped to a single key. Please, PLEASE, STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION! You can and will be banned for macro use. Period. There is no "time limit" on the use of them.
The rest of your post is pretty spot on however, except for your "wont be banned" comment at the end of your first actual paragraph.
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I think the larger issue is that these macros are a lot less useful than, uh, actually playing the game.
It's not like "Uh oh mutalisks are attacking, I sure could use a bunch of marines, medivacs and thors attack-moved to a specific location in 2 minutes!" will win any games, heh.
Just felt bad for Grubby that he was the front-man for something that's kind of un-helpful and provokes PR ire.
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On June 10 2011 04:00 AutomatonOmega wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote:
How is using simple keyboard macros cheating?
To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. Grubby is not the one to blame here. It's cheating because for it to be 'safe' and 'fine' everyone has to do it. Judging by Grubby Grubby's performance in the NASL, it's not like his macros helped him gain 'an advantage', but what if he was undefeated? This would set a bad precedent.
Using macro's in tourny's is not allowed. Grubby knows this and so does SS.
think before posting.
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On June 10 2011 03:47 Vulcano wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 00:15 T3tra wrote:On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote:
How is using simple keyboard macros cheating?
To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. Grubby is not the one to blame here. A macro allows you to do two (or more) actions in the time that it takes to normally do one. It's an unfair advantage. Now obviously this isn't going to be game breaking at lower levels, but when you're masters league or higher, where the speed at which you do your actions really makes or breaks a game, it's not fair. to elaborate with similar type situation, look at WoW macro freedom.. even the most vegetable of a player can set up spacebar to cycle through all the best 'motions' in an attempt to feign actually having knowledge and ability of the game principles, or simply to overpower ppl who DO understand the principles and mechanics. The only limit to how many things they can get one button to do, is in the 255 char text limit. Granted, any high level player can work around these gimmicks, which is all they are, since there is no understanding behind it, it still begs the question as to why any players who appreciate any game would want to replace understanding and practice of execution with a program or shortcut keys that do it for you. the bottom line is, these tools are crutches, and if you learn what they are trying to get out of you, gameplay wise(dem principlez), you wont ever need them(the crutches, not dem principlez).
WoW Macros don't work that way. They have for a very short amount of time about 5 years ago, than blizzard realized that that sucked and changed it.
Also, you fail to realize that macro keys make certain actions faster than humanly possible. That is a problem, since faster is generally better. And doing less with the same amount of input is the same as faster.
Not related to you, but the thread of being caught is even less important. Just because you may not be caught doing something does not make it ok. What should make you not do stuff is not the thread of punishment, but the actual moral reason that that punishment is threatened for. However, for many people stuff seems to only be wrong if you are punished if you do it. I find this attitude disgusting.
Honestly, noone in this thread knows exactly whether or not Blizzard has, or will, ban people for using macros. Strangely enough, the same could be said about anything else, since as far as i know, Blizzard does not release any statements regarding how many people they have banned for which specific reason. So all you have are statements from people who got banned, and they usually are not a very good source, since they always want to make it looks like evil Blizzard hunts the pure small gamer just for fun.
All the arguments that the advantage of using keyboard macros is small, does not matter, or does not exist, also miss the point. Just because you can not find a way to profit from this, or there might be dangers by misusing stuff, does not mean that nobody will find a way to gain an advantage from it. It does not matter if it is a large or a small advantage, because it is an unfair advantage. I think everyone would agree that you should not have any advantage in a competetive game by using outside stuff that is not available to everyone, or to force everyone who wants to have that advantage to spend additional money on it. Gaming should be about the game, not about the gear and software the gamer can gather.
Thus, in my opinion, every self-respecting gamer should avoid everything that feels like cheating, even if you think you will not get caught. Because what should stop you from cheating is not the thread of punishment, but your own self-respect.
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On June 10 2011 03:58 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:38 Jibba wrote:On June 10 2011 03:34 VIB wrote:On June 10 2011 03:27 Jibba wrote:On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote:On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby. Then Blizzard is at fault as well. That doesn't detract from the fact that Blizzard has been known to ban for macro keys and that SS shouldn't promote them in a competitive game. Even at the bronze level, SC2 is a player versus player competition. Number of people banned for macros like the ones grubby show in the video, on all history of blizzard: zero They cannot detect short macros like this on their end. They'll only ban you for long term bots that rolls for hours. That's just not true. Blizzard has done several banwaves during WoW where people using G15 and Nostromo macros were banned, and they did it in BW and they've done it in SC2. Their official stance is that it's a bannable offense, regardless of whether it's 100% automated or 5% automated. No, not for the kinds of macros grubby is showing. People have only been banned for making macros that run for a long time repeatedly. Grubby isn't showing any of those. Look, this is very simple. On a company as big as Blizzard, it's very common that the right hand doesn't know that what the left hand is doing. Blizzard executives wants to make deals with keyboard manufacturers because they make money from it. Regardless of what the software does, whatever the selling point is, they'll promote it. But GMs have simple orders to ban botters and have no idea what executives think. So they'll just try to ban whatever they can detect. Tho simple macros like the ones grubby showed, won't be detected and won't get banned. If you use it to make something to complex tho, you might get banned. Knowing this. Steelseries has the support from Blizzard's sales people to sell their keyboard. So they advertise it's selling points. They are careful to not go too deep into stuff that might get you in trouble. So they only show simple macros which won't get you banned from bnet. Blizzard, Steelseries and Grubby are all partly guilty for random people you encounter in the ladder using macros to beat you. Both Steelseries and Grubby are only doing this because they know they're backed by blizzard. Blizzard started all this. And people using those simple macros won't get banned.
I am pretty sure people have been banned for using macros like these in WoW.
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so wait if i bring this keyboard to a tourney i will not be able to play??
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On June 10 2011 04:08 ki11z0ne wrote:
so wait if i bring this keyboard to a tourney i will not be able to play??
You can play with it, you just cant use its macro features.
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On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote:
...
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race.
From the video description
Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software.
Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem.
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On June 10 2011 04:08 ki11z0ne wrote:
so wait if i bring this keyboard to a tourney i will not be able to play??
You can use keyboards with macroing capabilities as long as you don't use macros. However macros that only do one function (as in are similar to you pressing one button) are acceptable.
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On June 10 2011 04:08 ki11z0ne wrote:
so wait if i bring this keyboard to a tourney i will not be able to play??
If you're actually using the macros, correct. Using macros is illegal.
Using macros on the ladder is bannable, because it's cheating.
Rebinding a keyboard so that each button press corresponds to exactly one other button press is fine. But hotkeying one button to do multiple functions is not.
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On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote:
...
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem.
Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder?
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It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal.
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On June 10 2011 04:11 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote:
...
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder?
Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I?
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On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote:
...
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem.
My issue is not with Grubby - he does what he has to in order to make his money, I can understand. So would you be in agreeance that the use of macros in any kind of ladder game and obviously tournament play would be unfair; being my point from the beginning.
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I've also tried to read this all, but it is growing fast.
I don't want to blame Grubby here, as he's likely just doing what his sponsor is asking. SS should know these macros are no allowed in SC2, and should not be "hyping" them for the game. Their keyboard has plenty of other features that it can be sold on apart from this one.
Really we should be letting SteelSeries know that they have openly advocated breaking Blizzards ToS in this ad, and also damaged Grubby reputation by doing so.
Its the old sales team doing whatever it wants to push boxes, and the tech-team in the background scrambling to salvage their promises. (ya, I'm jaded towards sales people....)
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EPT
