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On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal.
Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal.
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the use a macro key is just not detectable by the game because the inputs come straight from the keyboard driver through the game. When you are using the manufacturer's driver control for reprogramming keys to make multiple actions the game itself has no chance of detecting how many actual keystrokes took place....
macro keys are not similar to boting or map hacking, people are just raging thinking the player who uses them will get an unfair advantage but if you think about it there are just not so many things you can do without actually touching the mouse. sure you can make units from barracks and factories but that's it.... you can't load marines into medivacs solely on macro keys like grubby presents it because some pointing action needs to occur
and usually the macro is not very reliable, the delay in-game (lag, latency) can cause failure to complete the action.
i have tried a macro function in sc2 for lost viking, i replaced the spacebar key with 10 spacebar pushes combined with 50 ms delay in between. i tought it would max out the firing rate of the viking but actually it's a major fail, tried several delays between hits and i really just had to go back to button mashing because the macro wasn't any good at all
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On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that. 
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On June 10 2011 04:13 Egyptian_Head wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:11 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote:
...
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder? Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I?
You are openly admitting that any unfair and cheating play does not matter as long as the game plays the same for you. As long as your game does what you want it to do when you tell it, you don't care if your opponent map hacks. I am failing to see the logic, but I will leave you to your delusions.
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On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote:
...
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem.
so there is no competitive nature to SC2 outside of tournies(nothing on the line)? its a highly competitive game and any kind of ranked multiplayer match, for the average gamer, IS the entirety of his competitive starcraft 2 experience.. which allegedly starts on an even playing field. if the controls are simplified for one but not for all, thats not even. and i dont see how simplified controls can not affect your enemies gameplay..
A = 1 command
A = 10 commands
A = A
?
EDIT:
p.s. this forum is just incredible...
p.s.s. thats right next post.. it IS in the ToS.. end of story huh? (should be)
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I'm confused to how anyone thinks keyboard macros used in online player vs player play is anything but an unfair advantage and against Blizzard's ToS.
It doesn't matter if you personally care or not, its up to Blizzard, and its in their ToS.
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On June 10 2011 04:16 Manimal_pro wrote:
the use a macro key is just not detectable by the game because the inputs come straight from the keyboard driver through the game. They DO can detect keyboard macros regardless where it's programmed. The server will simple notice "hey, he did 3042 commands in 10ms, that must be cheating". They won't really care where did all those commands come from. They might not detect it if you do something simple that can be confused with something a human could do. Or confused with network/cpu lag. But if you use complex macros over and over again, they can detect it.
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I don't really want to get in on this discussion, but really this thread wouldn't even exist if the disclaimer was read. As for steelseries, well razer has the same macro functions on the black widow anyway. All in all it comes down to the end-user and complaining about promotions of their own gear isn't really going to change that.
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On June 10 2011 04:21 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:16 Manimal_pro wrote:
the use a macro key is just not detectable by the game because the inputs come straight from the keyboard driver through the game. They DO can detect keyboard macros regardless where it's programmed. The server will simple notice "hey, he did 3042 commands in 10ms, that must be cheating". They won't really care where did all those commands come from. They might not detect it if you do something simple that can be confused with something a human could do. Or confused with network/cpu lag. But if you use complex macros over and over again, they can detect it.
You can macro a small delay between commands, which would make it a little bit less effective but still an advantage.
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On June 10 2011 04:22 Aggnog wrote:
I don't really want to get in on this discussion much, but next time read the disclaimer before making threads like this. Accusing someone like grubby screams want for attention, really.
dont pay an actor to promote abortion and expect those ranting about the sanctity of life to not bash him with picket signs
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On June 10 2011 04:17 JFCycWalker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:13 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:11 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote:
...
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder? Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I? You are openly admitting that any unfair and cheating play does not matter as long as the game plays the same for you. As long as your game does what you want it to do when you tell it, you don't care if your opponent map hacks. I am failing to see the logic, but I will leave you to your delusions.
Map hacks do change my game experience. I cannot hide anything, drops are pointless etc. It just ruins my fun. Macro keyboard does not ruin my fun.
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On June 10 2011 04:26 Egyptian_Head wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:17 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 04:13 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:11 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:
[quote]
you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder? Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I? You are openly admitting that any unfair and cheating play does not matter as long as the game plays the same for you. As long as your game does what you want it to do when you tell it, you don't care if your opponent map hacks. I am failing to see the logic, but I will leave you to your delusions. Map hacks do change my game experience. I cannot hide anything, drops are pointless etc. It just ruins my fun. Macro keyboard does not ruin my fun.
until u r unfairly PWNT'd in a macro fight against a lesser player? sounds fun
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On June 10 2011 04:22 Aggnog wrote:
I don't really want to get in on this discussion, but really this thread wouldn't even exist if the disclaimer was read. As for steelseries, well razer has the same macro functions on the black widow anyway. All in all it comes down to the end-user and complaining about promotions of their own gear isn't really going to change that.
The disclaimer is wrong. It implies that the rule against using macros is part of tournament rules and that casual players are allowed to use them. This is wrong. If it were true, no one would have any problem with this ad, whether the disclaimer was there or not.
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On June 10 2011 04:26 Egyptian_Head wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:17 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 04:13 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:11 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote:
[quote]
you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder? Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I? You are openly admitting that any unfair and cheating play does not matter as long as the game plays the same for you. As long as your game does what you want it to do when you tell it, you don't care if your opponent map hacks. I am failing to see the logic, but I will leave you to your delusions. Map hacks do change my game experience. I cannot hide anything, drops are pointless etc. It just ruins my fun. Macro keyboard does not ruin my fun.
Map hacks automate scounting, no?
Keyboard macros automate APM, no?
Both would ruin my fun. But I don't see how this is an argument of "fun" but rather an argument regarding a large esports sponsor openly condoning actions against Blizzards ToS.
That's bad IMO.
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On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal.
An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word.
I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is.
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On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is.
Yea, lets turn this into a argument of what Illegal means...
–adjective
1.
forbidden by law or statute.
2.
contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.
Well that was quick.
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On June 10 2011 04:22 Aggnog wrote:
I don't really want to get in on this discussion, but really this thread wouldn't even exist if the disclaimer was read. As for steelseries, well razer has the same macro functions on the black widow anyway. All in all it comes down to the end-user and complaining about promotions of their own gear isn't really going to change that.
Yes, the Black Widow have macro keys but I don't believe Razer have made an advertising video with one of their sponsored Starcraft players showing the viewers how to use macro keys in the game when it is against the rules of the game. Thats why this thing is so blown up againsts SteelSeries and Grubby.
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On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word.I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is.
"Laws" or "Illegal" are not words specific to United State's Constitution and law.
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more like grubby promotes getting paid
if u think he actually uses it himself then lol
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On June 10 2011 04:32 deadjon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. Yea, lets turn this into a argument of what Illegal means... –adjective 1. forbidden by law or statute. 2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass. Well that was quick.
I guess you can be a pedant and use the definition that no one actually uses in modern life, and which does not even exist in Merriam-Webster or similarly reputable dictionaries.
If that's really what you want to do, go for it.
Still think the larger issue is that all of these "cheating macros" are actually just kind of useless compared to being a halfway decent gold level player.
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