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On June 10 2011 04:41 deadjon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:37 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 04:32 deadjon wrote:On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote:On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote:
It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros.
No one will cart you off to jail.
Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. Yea, lets turn this into a argument of what Illegal means... –adjective 1. forbidden by law or statute. 2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass. Well that was quick. I guess you can be a pedant and use the definition that no one actually uses in modern life, and which does not even exist in Mirriam-Webster or similarly reputable dictionaries. If that's really what you want to do, go for it. Still think the larger issue is that all of these "cheating macros" are actually just kind of useless compared to being a halfway decent gold level player. I can't tell if you're serious here. Are you trying to say that no one uses the term as specified in the second example? Have you watched any major sporting events in the united stated recently? Terms like "Illegal movement" "Illegal forward pass" or "Illegal formation" are used all the time. It's a very standard use of the word, and it's clearly not just for use when discussing a states or country's legal system. But, if you want to continue to think the way you do, I cannot change that.
I still think one should avoid using the term illegal here. Simply to keep those annoying people out who come into every thread argueing semantics with "But its not illegal, you don't break any laws! Herpaderp", while really every single person involved knows what is meant. They add nothing to any discussion and just try to feel smart, so the best one could do is to try everything possible to keep them away from a thread.
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It's not fair, but it's not that big of an advantage either unless you're under 120 apm which I think all but 1 pro meets that requirement. :D
Some of the examples like the one he suggested with mutas/marines/thors is very strange. I'd be able to do it faster manually than hit a button. It just seemed kind of weird to have a macro with that much specificity.
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No one's trying to feel smart, it's just an awkward use of the word.
And again, the real issue here is that these macros are inferior compared to the real-time decision making of a gold-leaguer.
How can you not laugh when Grubby talks about how a single macro will produce marines and thors and then attack-move them 2 minutes later, as if that could possibly save you from mutalisks killing your mineral line right the hell now?
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On June 10 2011 04:55 kedinik wrote:
No one's trying to feel smart, it's just an awkward use of the word.
And again, the real issue here is that these macros are inferior compared to the real-time decision making of a gold-leaguer.
How can you not laugh when Grubby talks about how a single macro will produce marines and thors and then attack-move them 2 minutes later, as if that could possibly save you from mutalisks killing your mineral line right the hell now?
I think you're wrong in what the real issue here is;
Its that a eSports sponsor is advocating behaviors that are not allowed (damn you... making me not say illegal... I caved...) by Blizzard's own ToS and can result in your account being banned.
Or am I missing something?
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Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:55 kedinik wrote:
No one's trying to feel smart, it's just an awkward use of the word.
And again, the real issue here is that these macros are inferior compared to the real-time decision making of a gold-leaguer.
How can you not laugh when Grubby talks about how a single macro will produce marines and thors and then attack-move them 2 minutes later, as if that could possibly save you from mutalisks killing your mineral line right the hell now?
Just because those macros were retarded doesn't mean you can't find real ways to abuse it. What about a macro that injects all your hatches in ~20ms. No matter how fast you are injecting 4 hatches takes upwards 500ms and a let longer for most people.
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On June 10 2011 04:55 kedinik wrote:
No one's trying to feel smart, it's just an awkward use of the word.
And again, the real issue here is that these macros are inferior compared to the real-time decision making of a gold-leaguer.
How can you not laugh when Grubby talks about how a single macro will produce marines and thors and then attack-move them 2 minutes later, as if that could possibly save you from mutalisks killing your mineral line right the hell now?
In broodwar this would have actually been very useful 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a as zerg using a 1 button push would be much much faster than doing it manually no matter how nimble your fingers are. SC2 is just an easier game so this type of macro is less useful.
I'd say that things like larva inject or a patrol macro to split marines vs banelings could be very advantageous and possibly 'game breaking' respectively. I'm not sure if the keyboard can do this, but if so it would be a huge benefit.
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my god these are probably some of the most ridiculous comments i have ever read. just because it's "against" the terms of service doesn't make it wrong. it's not even really breaking any rules. the intent of that statement was to describe people who actually cheat, like map hackers and people like that. i doubt blizzard gives any shits about people who use macros while they play.
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On June 10 2011 04:48 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:45 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:29 deadjon wrote:On June 10 2011 04:26 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:17 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 04:13 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:11 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote:
[quote]
How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder? Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I? You are openly admitting that any unfair and cheating play does not matter as long as the game plays the same for you. As long as your game does what you want it to do when you tell it, you don't care if your opponent map hacks. I am failing to see the logic, but I will leave you to your delusions. Map hacks do change my game experience. I cannot hide anything, drops are pointless etc. It just ruins my fun. Macro keyboard does not ruin my fun. Map hacks automate scounting, no? Keyboard macros automate APM, no? Both would ruin my fun. But I don't see how this is an argument of "fun" but rather an argument regarding a large esports sponsor openly condoning actions against Blizzards ToS. That's bad IMO. The first person quoting cut off the first part of my post which says that I think people are taking this too seriously not that they should or should not be allowed. Im only arguing that people are taking this way to seriously, im not arguing that they are or are not allowed or even should or should not be allowed. Just that people are taking it to seriously. Your attitude of accepting cheating as part of the game scares me. What's going to stop you cheating by using the macros? You said you don't mind if an opponent uses the macros to cheat. What's going to stop you from doing the same if you think cheating is ok? This is what really scares me that there are people who share your beliefs and who cheat in the game because they think it's ok.
If you had read this entire loooong quote you would know I have been saying that someone else using a macro keyboard does not affect my playing experience. Me using a macro keyboard on the other hand does affect my play experience. In this case for the worse, I like challenging games and a macro keyboard according to people in this thread would make the game easier hence I will not use it.
What boogles my mind is why do people care what other do if it is not affecting how they experience the game. If you think it does affect how you experience the game great, I disagree. You are still taking this whole macro keyboard thing this far to seriously which is the entire point of everything I have said.
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Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:00 Comogury wrote:
my god these are probably some of the most ridiculous comments i have ever read. just because it's "against" the terms of service doesn't make it wrong. it's not even really breaking any rules. the intent of that statement was to describe people who actually cheat, like map hackers and people like that. i doubt blizzard gives any shits about people who use macros while they play.
Speaking of ridiculous comments...
How is breaking to ToS not wrong? :s
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On June 10 2011 05:00 Comogury wrote:
just because it's "against" the terms of service doesn't make it wrong.
wait... what? Actually, it explicitly means it's wrong.
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Grubby should refuse to do this.
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Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:01 Egyptian_Head wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:48 ptbl wrote:On June 10 2011 04:45 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:29 deadjon wrote:On June 10 2011 04:26 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:17 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 04:13 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:11 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote:
[quote]
Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder? Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I? You are openly admitting that any unfair and cheating play does not matter as long as the game plays the same for you. As long as your game does what you want it to do when you tell it, you don't care if your opponent map hacks. I am failing to see the logic, but I will leave you to your delusions. Map hacks do change my game experience. I cannot hide anything, drops are pointless etc. It just ruins my fun. Macro keyboard does not ruin my fun. Map hacks automate scounting, no? Keyboard macros automate APM, no? Both would ruin my fun. But I don't see how this is an argument of "fun" but rather an argument regarding a large esports sponsor openly condoning actions against Blizzards ToS. That's bad IMO. The first person quoting cut off the first part of my post which says that I think people are taking this too seriously not that they should or should not be allowed. Im only arguing that people are taking this way to seriously, im not arguing that they are or are not allowed or even should or should not be allowed. Just that people are taking it to seriously. Your attitude of accepting cheating as part of the game scares me. What's going to stop you cheating by using the macros? You said you don't mind if an opponent uses the macros to cheat. What's going to stop you from doing the same if you think cheating is ok? This is what really scares me that there are people who share your beliefs and who cheat in the game because they think it's ok. If you had read this entire loooong quote you would know I have been saying that someone else using a macro keyboard does not affect my playing experience. Me using a macro keyboard on the other hand does affect my play experience. In this case for the worse, I like challenging games and a macro keyboard according to people in this thread would make the game easier hence I will not use it.
By that definition map hackers doesn't effect your experience either. >_<
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Everyone is all butthurt in this thread............. i wouldnt mind using it on the ladder, because 50% of the games i play everybody cheeses me, so im sure this macro board will make up for the 50%, i wouldnt use it at tournaments.. but when playing a ladder that doesnt matter, sure why not
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Since the game situation shown in the video are played on a non ladder map, probably against the computer, Steelseries does not support cheating in ladder games against human opponents. That is probably what they will say when they get confronted wit this...
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On June 10 2011 05:01 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 05:00 Comogury wrote:
my god these are probably some of the most ridiculous comments i have ever read. just because it's "against" the terms of service doesn't make it wrong. it's not even really breaking any rules. the intent of that statement was to describe people who actually cheat, like map hackers and people like that. i doubt blizzard gives any shits about people who use macros while they play. Speaking of ridiculous comments... How is breaking to ToS not wrong? :s
Ohh, morality discussions on the internet! There's no way this is going to end badly...
I really just kinda feel bad for Grubby. He's the one that likely ends up looking the worst in all of this. He seems like such a nice guy too. Prob just read the teleprompter for the commercial and when on with his day...
Or he's a low down cheating illegal bastard... O_o
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I am not sure I can support a player or a company that's shilling out this kind of stuff using sc2 where its' pretty obvious such things are considered at the very least taboo and at most downright bannable and cheating.
I understand selling it but I can not condone dragging a pro player or a pro player letting it happen. It's called ethics and Grubby's doesn't appear to be too strong for doing this spot. In the end he had the choice rather to say no or yes and he's lost my respect at this time.
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On June 10 2011 05:03 Iamyournoob wrote:
Since the game situation shown in the video are played on a non ladder map, probably against the computer, Steelseries does not support cheating in ladder games against human opponents. That is probably what they will say when they get confronted wit this...
The terms of service don't just apply to bnet games. They apply to you playing starcraft.
I don't see what's so confusing and why people think the title is sensationalist. Is it cheating by gaining an advantage that is explicitly forbidden in the ToS? Check. Is it using macros? Check. Is Grubby promoting it? Check...
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On June 10 2011 05:05 Parnage wrote:
I am not sure I can support a player or a company that's shilling out this kind of stuff using sc2 where its' pretty obvious such things are considered at the very least taboo and at most downright bannable and cheating.
I understand selling it but I can not condone dragging a pro player or a pro player letting it happen. It's called ethics and Grubby's doesn't appear to be too strong for doing this spot. In the end he had the choice rather to say no or yes and he's lost my respect at this time.
To be fair, a lot of teams are sponsored by steelseries and steelseries isn't the only KB manufacturer that has features like this. He makes a living doing this and just because he does a commercial saying it's great doesn't mean he thinks it is. Spokesmen often back products they don't believe in or don't care about... Watch IdrA's replay analysis... At the end he clearly doesn't give a fuck about whatever it was he was advertising, he did it for the $$ which is understandable. They gotta eat too. :D
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On June 10 2011 05:02 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 05:00 Comogury wrote:
just because it's "against" the terms of service doesn't make it wrong. wait... what? Actually, it explicitly means it's wrong.
I hope the Blizzard launcher can detect this and ban it. This is completely unfair.
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On June 10 2011 05:03 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 05:01 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:48 ptbl wrote:On June 10 2011 04:45 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:29 deadjon wrote:On June 10 2011 04:26 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:17 JFCycWalker wrote:On June 10 2011 04:13 Egyptian_Head wrote:On June 10 2011 04:11 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote:
[quote]
From the video description
Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software.
Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder? Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I? You are openly admitting that any unfair and cheating play does not matter as long as the game plays the same for you. As long as your game does what you want it to do when you tell it, you don't care if your opponent map hacks. I am failing to see the logic, but I will leave you to your delusions. Map hacks do change my game experience. I cannot hide anything, drops are pointless etc. It just ruins my fun. Macro keyboard does not ruin my fun. Map hacks automate scounting, no? Keyboard macros automate APM, no? Both would ruin my fun. But I don't see how this is an argument of "fun" but rather an argument regarding a large esports sponsor openly condoning actions against Blizzards ToS. That's bad IMO. The first person quoting cut off the first part of my post which says that I think people are taking this too seriously not that they should or should not be allowed. Im only arguing that people are taking this way to seriously, im not arguing that they are or are not allowed or even should or should not be allowed. Just that people are taking it to seriously. Your attitude of accepting cheating as part of the game scares me. What's going to stop you cheating by using the macros? You said you don't mind if an opponent uses the macros to cheat. What's going to stop you from doing the same if you think cheating is ok? This is what really scares me that there are people who share your beliefs and who cheat in the game because they think it's ok. If you had read this entire loooong quote you would know I have been saying that someone else using a macro keyboard does not affect my playing experience. Me using a macro keyboard on the other hand does affect my play experience. In this case for the worse, I like challenging games and a macro keyboard according to people in this thread would make the game easier hence I will not use it. By that definition map hackers doesn't effect your experience either. >_<
I cannot hide anything, drops are way less effective, he knows where I start without scouting, can see when my army is out of position, knows my build, can see when im moving out to attack. etc. etc. Does seem to affect my experience quiet a bit. He knows things about me. The keyboard just helps his own game, it doesn't show him mine.
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EPT
