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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
"A third party program is any file or program that is not a part of the StarCraft II software, but is used to gain an advantage in the game, ... If a player is found to have used such a program, he/she may: Be temporarily suspended from the game Have further action taken, up to and including account closure, based on the intent of the program" -Blizzard What do you guys think about the video that Steelseries posted on their channel? | ||
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s.a.y
Croatia3840 Posts
Poor move by Steelseries. Guess i'll buy a Razer next. | ||
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Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
That being said, it is a major FAIL from Steelseries to promote something that is against Blizzard's ToS not only in tournament, but also in ladder gaming or custom games. Moral of the story? Grubby made some money, Steelseries' credibility has been hindered, commercial will be removed soon. | ||
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RmpL
Germany263 Posts
To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. Grubby is not the one to blame here. | ||
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skirmisheR
Sweden451 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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Virtue
United States318 Posts
Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software I guess they don't address the fact that macros aren't supposed to be used in any Starcraft game done through Battle.net. :/ | ||
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Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote: How is using simple keyboard macros cheating? To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. It really doesn't matter if it is justified or not : Blizzard stated it's against ToS of BattleNet, so SC2 players musn't use it. It's their game after all, they set up the rules the way they want those rules to be. | ||
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Stuv
Netherlands942 Posts
Not the smartest move ever by Steelseries to promote it like this. | ||
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Sid(TB)
United States314 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote: How is using simple keyboard macros cheating? To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. Grubby is not the one to blame here. using macro keys to do more than 1 command (such as setting a mouse button to press shift + r) is against tos, however if u set a mouse key as (r) thats fine | ||
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Freeheals
United States488 Posts
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RmpL
Germany263 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:11 Ahelvin wrote: It really doesn't matter if it is justified or not : Blizzard stated it's against ToS of BattleNet, so players playing SC2 musn't use it. It's their game after all, they set up the rules the way they want those rules to be. I wasnt aware of that, sorry. In this case, Steelseries fucked up, but again, don't blame Grubby for making easy cash  | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
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Philip2110
Scotland798 Posts
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Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:12 RmpL wrote: I wasnt aware of that, sorry. In this case, Steelseries fucked up, but again, don't blame Grubby for making easy cash That was exactly my first answer : Good move from Grubby, nice fail from Steelseries . | ||
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s.a.y
Croatia3840 Posts
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote: How is using simple keyboard macros cheating? how about that you can do in one click what others would have to do in several? if you seriously cannot fathom how macros are cheating then there is something wrong with you | ||
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stOrpse
United States175 Posts
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T3tra
United States406 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote: How is using simple keyboard macros cheating? To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. Grubby is not the one to blame here. A macro allows you to do two (or more) actions in the time that it takes to normally do one. It's an unfair advantage. Now obviously this isn't going to be game breaking at lower levels, but when you're masters league or higher, where the speed at which you do your actions really makes or breaks a game, it's not fair. | ||
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emesen
United States256 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote: How is using simple keyboard macros cheating? because it is? | ||
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RmpL
Germany263 Posts
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
You can do the same thing on the Razer Starcraft 2 keyboard. That has been out for a long time and I don't think anyone has been banned for using a product branded with the Starcraft II logo. | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
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Zhiroo
Kosovo2724 Posts
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resilve
United Kingdom678 Posts
Have a go at steelseries if you find such a keyboard problematic. | ||
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WallieP
Netherlands425 Posts
BTW does this site also have a report button to repot stupid posts like this? Or is it just wait and hope a mod sees it? | ||
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EndOfTime88
Austria259 Posts
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:14 s.a.y wrote: Nobody is blaming Grubby, the faulty part is on SteelSeries side. I'm blaming Grubby, and I think some others are too. These things are against the terms of service. The disclaimer is wrong - they're illegal in any play of starcraft 2, whether it's a competitive tournament, ladder, campaign, whatever. Celebrities don't make any commercial anyone offers to pay them for... They're expected to have some editorial discretion and not endorse things that are harmful, illegal, unethical, etc. Fans (rightly) hold it against them when they do otherwise, and that's why professional athletes and so forth are usually so careful about it. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
Advertise this for WoW or LoL but not for a game that will ban you for using it... | ||
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Cowish
8 Posts
For example, if you have a macro-keyboard, there will be additional keys on it, You could bind control, alt, or 1-9 to one of those keys and it would be perfectly fine. It's not cheating unless you make it cheating. | ||
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MassacrisM
United Kingdom149 Posts
What a stupid product. | ||
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trancey_
Germany729 Posts
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
but i cant help but admire Grubby just captivated by his speech etc.. lol ♥ it | ||
Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
Steelseries are not forcing Grubby to promote their merchandise, he is doing it by free will. I have followed Grubby for a long time and love him as much as you do, though it seems my love is not blind... | ||
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Samhax
1054 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:21 Sina92 wrote: I will not change the title. The definition of promote can be found here. Steelseries are not forcing Grubby to promote their merchandise, he is doing it by free will. I have followed Grubby for a long time and love him as much as you do, though it seems my love is not blind... You do know Steelseries is paying his salary so he can continue to be a progamer right? | ||
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Yannosh
Belgium93 Posts
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:20 trancey_ wrote: it's grubbys job, not his problem if someone gets banned for cheating. I don't know if Blizzard will ever ban anyone for use of macros (I'd imagine if they did it would be temporary bans only) and maybe Steelseries consulted Blizzard before putting up this video, but the potential backlash if a few thousand users get banned for what Steelseries recommended them would ensue a nifty source of entertainment. | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:20 trancey_ wrote: it's grubbys job, not his problem if someone gets banned for cheating. they are using grubbys image to sell their product doesnt it make sense that people are then pissed with grubby if they get banned? the average person who doesnt really visit TL and just remembers grubby from playing wc3 might buy it because of this advert, and thats grubbys fault | ||
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FaCE_1
Canada6174 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:08 s.a.y wrote: The comments in the page tell the story. It's illegal and stupid, you only get banned for using such software. Poor move by Steelseries. Guess i'll buy a Razer next. razer keyboard also have macro key  just dont use them | ||
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RmpL
Germany263 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:21 Kiante wrote: Don't know why people think grubby is innocent in this. Its not like its not obvious this wouldn't be allowed in sc2. he read the script, he speaks english. He knew exactly what he was saying. if he's happy enough to say this for money, what happens when someone offers him money to lose games. Really, seems like a pretty simple fucking stepping stone right here. Thats BS, maybe he shouldnt have done it, but to get to where youre going is bad. Its not like using those macros will make you a freaking god in this game. It gives you a litle advantage, if at all. And to tall those Steelseries haters, there are more keyboards out there that let you use Macros besides the one in the video .. | ||
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Cuiu
Germany410 Posts
nobody says you should use it there are many tutorials in the internet like for bombs drugs etc. so whats the deal? do you think a player who uses a macro to sent some units around is going to steal your ladder points or win a tournament with? almost every keyboard has macro keys and when not you can use some programs to have some stop QQ pls maybe i should buy this and than i will be for sure the next mkp give me a break | ||
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CheeC[h]
United States137 Posts
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
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WallieP
Netherlands425 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:22 Yannosh wrote: Really dissapointing by both Grubby and Steelseries. Lol @ being dissapointed cause of this movie... how to make a mountain out of a mole-hill | ||
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shalafi
394 Posts
And Razer too (for those saying "I'll buy razer"... lol...) http://www.razerzone.com/sc2/en/marauder "[...]Enhanced with a dedicated on-the-fly macro recording system[...]" -_____________- | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:21 Kiante wrote: Don't know why people think grubby is innocent in this. Its not like its not obvious this wouldn't be allowed in sc2. he read the script, he speaks english. He knew exactly what he was saying. if he's happy enough to say this for money, what happens when someone offers him money to lose games. Really, seems like a pretty simple fucking stepping stone right here. But what if he was given the choice of filming the commercial or violating his contract with his sponsor? I highly doubt he was given the opportunity to turn this commercial down. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
try improving with a 108-keyboard, that's how we gamers do it | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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ihavetofartosis
1277 Posts
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optical630
United Kingdom768 Posts
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maJes
United Kingdom186 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:27 shalafi wrote: To everyone bashing the macros, you know that there are blizzard-sponsored sc2-themed macro keyboards, right? 'Blizzard sponsored' doesn't mean an awful lot really. The Logitech G15 was 'official' for WoW, yet there were still people banned for botting/automation using the macro engine built into the keyboard. | ||
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XdtA
Australia88 Posts
http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 | ||
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:22 Zrana wrote: Somewhere, all those game product companies got the idea that macro keys are something that players want.... has anyone ever used them? (not including rebinding to single keypresses) I have tried it on my g11. It was completely useless (especially for protoss). I doubt even diamond players with bad macro would benefit at all from using them. | ||
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Kira__
Sweden2672 Posts
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:27 barkles wrote: The thread title is a bit too strongly worded in my opinion. I would bet that Grubby, rather than being approached by Steelseries and asked to do this ad, was contractually obligated by Steelseries (his main sponsor) to film commercials and was probably told that he MUST do the ad, regardless of content. If anything, the title should be "Steelseries promotes cheating?" If Grubby signed a contract that actually requires him to say literally any words that steelseries ask him to say, then he is incompetent at negotiating his sponsorship agreements and really, really shouldn't be running his own team. It's maybe worth noting that anyone who posted a tutorial on how to do this on TL would I believe be banned instantly. | ||
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Leoneri
United States67 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:19 Chronald wrote: Makes me lol that SteelSeries didn't read the EULA or ToS for SC2, this is clearly against them and will get you banned. Advertise this for WoW or LoL but not for a game that will ban you for using it... I'm fairly sure almost any reputable online game out there right now will ban you for using equipment that will give you multiple button presses per one button. I know at the very least WoW will ban you, as it is another Blizzard game, but I'm fairly sure LoL would too. That being said I'm not completely convinced of Grubby being at fault here. He isn't only doing it just because they'll pay him, but because you can't really tell your sponsor no and expect them to keep supporting you while you don't support them, and e-sports isn't at the point yet where people can just deny a sponsor, teams need all the money they can get right now. | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:28 optical630 wrote: grubby probably had to advertise it as he is being sponsored, you think a pro doesnt know whats illegal in a game he plays professionally? Obviously not, or he would probably have told Steelseries. Based on their replies to the Youtube video they don't even know it is against the ToS to use 3rd party programs or files. | ||
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:29 Kira__ wrote: Razers Starcraft 2 series of hardware have these macros as well There's nothing wrong with having a keyboard that does macros. Assuming you ever do something other than play sc2, you very well might want to have them. It's saying you should use them in sc2 that's the problem. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
because it was banned since World of Warcraft | ||
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Gnax
Sweden490 Posts
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baldgye
United Kingdom1092 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:28 ihavetofartosis wrote: Steelseries: Helping you win games you don't deserve. quite... though I would like Blizzard to make a post addressing this so there is no confusion for us and SS. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
this post is so full of knowledge i dont know where to begin. Its cheating because using anything to do more than 1 seperate thing at a time = cheating in blizz ToS example = 1 button trains 9 marines, instead of you hitting a 9 times thats cheating in blizz ToS | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:24 RmpL wrote: Thats BS, maybe he shouldnt have done it, but to get to where youre going is bad. Its not like using those macros will make you a freaking god in this game. It gives you a litle advantage, if at all. And to tall those Steelseries haters, there are more keyboards out there that let you use Macros besides the one in the video .. I'm pretty sure that if you said "i'm not promoting that unless you get blizzard to approve it" wouldn't get you fired. stop being stupid | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:29 aristarchus wrote: If Grubby signed a contract that actually requires him to say literally any words that steelseries ask him to say, then he is incompetent at negotiating his sponsorship agreements and really, really shouldn't be running his own team. It's maybe worth noting that anyone who posted a tutorial on how to do this on TL would I believe be banned instantly. ....and if Steelseries failed to have something in the contract that required Grubby to demonstrate the capabilities of their gaming peripherals in commercials, then THEY would be incompetent negotiators. | ||
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TMOUllrich
England59 Posts
Change the thread title. | ||
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s.a.y
Croatia3840 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:32 Gnax wrote:b Basically this. He's obviously not a malicious cheater but it was a dumb commercial to make and be a part of.Why are people defending Grubby? It's not a big deal, but he is responsible for what he does. Nobody is holding a gun to his head in that video. The macros are cheating and he is promoting them. I'll clarify that it's macro cheating, but he's still promoting a form of it. I think it's at least slightly dubious for Blizzard to sell macro keyboards when they don't allow them in their own games, but at least they don't blueprint the actual macros needed to cheat. | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:33 barkles wrote: ....and if Steelseries failed to have something in the contract that required Grubby to demonstrate the capabilities of their gaming peripherals in commercials, then THEY would be incompetent negotiators. well the commercial definitely does not have the intended effect so they are to some degree incompetent... depending on the audience they want to reach the negative reaction to it might be more than made up for by the increased attention it gets from the outcry but I am pretty sure there is some discussions in their marketing department right now. | ||
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Mateo0
France112 Posts
What a fail move by both side ... | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:32 Gnax wrote: Why are people defending Grubby? It's not a big deal, but he is responsible for what he does. Nobody is holding a gun to his head in that video. or maybe...they were! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Oc7wV.png) you guys didn't catch that bit? | ||
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optical630
United Kingdom768 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:30 Sina92 wrote: Obviously not, or he would probably have told Steelseries. Based on their replies to the Youtube video they don't even know it is against the ToS to use 3rd party programs or files. he is being sponsored by steelseries, if he doesnt do what they want him to do, then he may have lost the contract, which he wouldnt want as he would then lose money. | ||
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natebreen
United States184 Posts
Aligning yourself against Blizzard isn't the smartest thing ever as we've seen with the korean bw scene managers. | ||
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Marcus420
Canada1923 Posts
a shit ton of gaming keyboard have macro's. its up to you how to use them. | ||
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MagickMan
Australia498 Posts
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 Ahelvin wrote: I think Grubby was asked to do a commercial in exchange for some money, and of course he accepted because he is a rational human being. That being said, it is a major FAIL from Steelseries to promote something that is against Blizzard's ToS not only in tournament, but also in ladder gaming or custom games. Moral of the story? Grubby made some money, Steelseries' credibility has been hindered, commercial will be removed soon. That still doesn't justify it. He, as a professional, should know that this is cheating and should not support it in any way... | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
but i wouldn't want to press it by mistake (>_<) To the point. It was stupid of steelseries and Grubby to promote it this way. It makes people believe that it isn't illegal. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:38 Marcus420 wrote: talk about misleading title. how is it misleading? using macro's is cheating, grubby makes a video promoting it. He would've had a chance to say no and he didn't. If he cares more about money than the rules of the game, he's not better than a hacker. | ||
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Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
This is a complete non-issue. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
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Cuiu
Germany410 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:32 arb wrote: this post is so full of knowledge i dont know where to begin. Its cheating because using anything to do more than 1 seperate thing at a time = cheating in blizz ToS example = 1 button trains 9 marines, instead of you hitting a 9 times thats cheating in blizz ToS and when you have just 1/2/3 rax? your macro is so intelligent to just produce 1 for each rax? and what is when you want 3 marauder and 3 marines but the next time only 2 marauder and 4marines macros are fucking useless you are much more worse with than without | ||
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Bloodash
Netherlands1384 Posts
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Marcus420
Canada1923 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:40 Kiante wrote: how is it misleading? using macro's is cheating, grubby makes a video promoting it. He would've had a chance to say no and he didn't. If he cares more about money than the rules of the game, he's not better than a hacker. i think i may have read the title wrong first, but it comes off as calling grubby a cheater/hacker. Thats what i meant. even im pretty bad at this game and dont see how macro's would help you get any better. its not like macros give you a ridiculous and unfair advantage, like a map hack which alot make it sound like. If anything, blame SteelSeries, and not grubby. | ||
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Dwelf
Netherlands365 Posts
The example of how to 'Counter' a pending mutalisk attack is just hilarious cause its probably even smarter to just handpick the units you wanna make instead of some preset bunch of units. If you dont have the gas/minerals for the units then it doesn't even make them, for example if you macro your marines to come out before the thors, and you really want thors but then have no cash for thors, your macro actually didn't help you atall. Macro's are for lazy people not for cheaters. | ||
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Klaas
Slovenia86 Posts
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maJes
United Kingdom186 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:40 Mikilatov wrote: He's promoting his sponsor, and there's a disclaimer. You know who else fully supports and licenses products that have macro commands? Blizzard themselves. Take a look at the Razer SC2 keyboard. A major feature of the keyboard is that it records macros on the fly, and is a DIRECT Starcraft 2 product endorsed by Blizzard. This is a complete non-issue. The crucial difference is that Blizzard don't promote the macros for use in their games (just take a look at the wording on the feature). From the sounds of it (can't watch as at work) Grubby is directly promoting the use of the product for things which are against the TOS, so I would assume it is an issue. | ||
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TMOUllrich
England59 Posts
http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001143 | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:41 Bloodash wrote: I don't get it, whom is this marketed towards? Idiots? even using this on ladder can get you banned as far as I know, Grub you better get a big sum of $$$ for this because its not exactly great PR... Blizzard doesn't monitor keystrokes so how would they know you are using a macro keyboard. This is more a matter of taste amongst players using this than Blizzard giving a crap. | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
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Gurgl
Sweden308 Posts
Alot of gaminggear is overrated but noobs buy what the pros use apparently which is good for esports. Most progamers use whatever gaminggear their sponsors want them to use as long as it's not terrible, you can get used to most stuff. | ||
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Samhax
1054 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:40 Kiante wrote: how is it misleading? using macro's is cheating, grubby makes a video promoting it. He would've had a chance to say no and he didn't. If he cares more about money than the rules of the game, he's not better than a hacker. It's misleading because if i knew what was the content of the op, i would never check it. "Cheat" is a strong word, you can't use it like it's not a big deal, the Title is clearly attacking Grubby for something completely in my eyes "minor"; It is minor because everybody knows in competitive play macro are not allowed. And Blizzard can't do nothing about people using macros in a non competitive environement i.e ladder for example. So for me this op is bad. | ||
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namedplayer
844 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:42 TMOUllrich wrote: Why is everyone refusing to acknowledge that Blizzard promotes the keyboards ?!?!? http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001143 Likely because you didn't read the thread and missed the dozens of other people saying the same thing. The difference is that macro keys can be used anywhere. They could be used in Windows for every day tasks. What Blizzard doesn't do is say "here are macro keys that you can use to cheat in our game", which is essentially what the SteelSeries/Grubby ad is. Macro keys are a multiuse utility that are banned in some circumstances. SteelSeries is promoting it in one of those banned circumstances. There are hundreds of products in the real world you could relate it to. | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
as far as grubby is concerned, he is just doing what he is paid to do for his sponsors, and knowing the professional and manner individual grubby is, would not use this himself, so think twice before u point the finger of blame | ||
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breakingties
United Kingdom72 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:40 emythrel wrote: the select idol workers one can be done with 1 key anyways right? Isn't that hotkey programmable within the game itself? ctrl+f1 | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:42 TMOUllrich wrote: Why is everyone refusing to acknowledge that Blizzard promotes the keyboards ?!?!? http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001143 Blizzard does not promote the use of macros in SC2 : "The custom keyset for StarCraft® II: Wings of Liberty™ offers players dedicated short-cut keys, complete key remapping for full keyset customization " They mention in the first paragraph that the keyboard has the ability for macro keys but don't promote their usage in SC2. (Now I am completely agree that this isn't a too lucky way to promote the keyboard but still its a difference) | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
As mentioned in the disclaimer above, we are of course aware that most tournaments are not allowing macro use. However, the majority of SC2 players are not playing competitively, and could benefit from using these features. Grubby is of course only demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software, as he is an active professional. Apologies for any confusion this might have caused.  - SteelSeries So this is a feature for casual players... But isn't it also illigal to use macros on the B.net2 ladder? - Which is the only place to play vs other people in a competitive environment. Well, there once was a time when MBS, unlimited unit selection, automining etc was considered cheating. I guess this is the future of ESPORTS - how fucking terrible. | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:42 maJes wrote: The crucial difference is that Blizzard don't promote the macros for use in their games (just take a look at the wording on the feature). Blizzard Store wrote: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:45 Samhax wrote: It's misleading because if i knew what was the content of the op, i would never check it. "Cheat" is a strong word, you can't use it like it's not a big deal, the Title is clearly attacking Grubby for something completely in my eyes "minor"; It is minor because everybody knows in competitive play macro are not allowed. And Blizzard can't do nothing about people using macros in a non competitive environement i.e ladder for example. So for me this op is bad. No matter what you think of it, objectivly he is promoting cheating - whether you like it or not. | ||
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namedplayer
844 Posts
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aike
United States1629 Posts
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maJes
United Kingdom186 Posts
Unfortunately while the context implies that this refers to SC2 it doesn't actually. | ||
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Mateo0
France112 Posts
Ahah wtf people? "Yeah you'd do whatever for money...." You guys have some issues ... | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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Samhax
1054 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:47 Sina92 wrote: No matter what you think of it, objectivly he is promoting cheating - whether you like it or not. yeah sure, you are defending the op? that's unfortunate... | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:48 Samhax wrote: yeah sure, you are defending the op? that's unfortunate... Why so? | ||
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Mattjk
Canada39 Posts
also read the description: "Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software." | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
That's pretty bad too. :/ Shame on Blizzard. | ||
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
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Marcus420
Canada1923 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:48 Mateo0 wrote: "I think Grubby was asked to do a commercial in exchange for some money, and of course he accepted because he is a rational human being." Ahah wtf people? "Yeah you'd do whatever for money...." You guys have some issues ... Id make a video like this if i had a sponsor, that paid me 5k to do a 5 minute video. Apparently i have issues. | ||
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:47 XsebT wrote: So this is a feature for casual players... But isn't it also illigal to use macros on the B.net2 ladder? - Which is the only place to play vs other people at all. Well, there once was a time when MBS, unlimited unit selection, automining etc was considered cheating. I guess this is the future of ESPORTS - how fucking terrible. I think you should try using them. They're not the future of anything. | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:40 Kiante wrote: how is it misleading? using macro's is cheating, grubby makes a video promoting it. He would've had a chance to say no and he didn't. If he cares more about money than the rules of the game, he's not better than a hacker. LOL. So, you were there when Steelseries approached grubby and they just said "hey buddy want to do this commercial? if not that's okay." yeah right. If not doing the commercial would have been a violation of his contract, imagine the shitstorm that grubby would be in: loses his sponsor, probably would have trouble gaining another, possible forfeiture of income from the contract period, etc. I have a VERY hard time believing that the situation is as black-and-white as you make it sound | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
they don't mention multiplayer though Is there some official statement from Blizzard on the macro key topic? I dimly remember that they said something about it during beta... @ those posters saying Grubby had no choice... I think they would have appreciated if he warned them about the potential backlash which happens now (and maybe he did and they decided to go ahead) | ||
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TMOUllrich
England59 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:46 Jibba wrote: Likely because you didn't read the thread and missed the dozens of other people saying the same thing. The difference is that macro keys can be used anywhere. They could be used in Windows for every day tasks. What Blizzard doesn't do is say "here are macro keys that you can use to cheat in our game", which is essentially what the SteelSeries/Grubby ad is. Macro keys are a multiuse utility that are banned in some circumstances. SteelSeries is promoting it in one of those banned circumstances. There's no difference whatsoever. I don't care how a product is represented, it's still the same product and it still does the same thing and they know that and we know that. Stop being naive and open your eyes. Criticize grubby here and you also must critizie blizzard. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:47 XsebT wrote: So this is a feature for casual players... But isn't it also illigal to use macros on the B.net2 ladder? - Which is the only place to play vs other people at all. Well, there once was a time when MBS, unlimited unit selection, automining etc was considered cheating. I guess this is the future of ESPORTS - how fucking terrible. Well ladder is competitive as well so the disclaimer is probably including ladder, in which case, its all justified. | ||
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strength
United States493 Posts
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
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arew
Lithuania1861 Posts
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maJes
United Kingdom186 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:51 TBO wrote: they don't mention multiplayer though Is there some official statement from Blizzard on the macro key topic? I dimly remember that they said something about it during beta... As far as I remember they said single keystroke macros/rebindings were fine, multiple presses have always been bannable, which is in line with their WoW policy on delays etc since it's partial automation of the game. | ||
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Benkestok
Denmark63 Posts
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GigaFlop
United States1146 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:22 Zrana wrote: Somewhere, all those game product companies got the idea that macro keys are something that players want.... has anyone ever used them? (not including rebinding to single keypresses) I use one at the moment. List of keys pressed: Enter, d, e, r, p, a, , d, e, r, p, ,d, e, r, p, Enter Result: GigaFlop: derpa derp derp It really can be amusing(for me) sometimes. Yes, I use macros, but only for ingame chat. Even if my macro keys werent so oddly placed(Saitek Cybork Keyboard), I wouldn't want to use them for anything besides annoying people in chat. I actually take steps to test them to make sure they don't do anything besides put out the intended message. It's just faster than manually Enter, Ctrl+v, Enter. | ||
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Samhax
1054 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:52 frodoguy wrote: Well ladder is competitive as well so the disclaimer is probably including ladder, in which case, its all justified. You think big names in ladder will use this kind of macro and then being completely screw up in lan event, get serious please...Only "bad" players will use this kind of macro and then it's pointless to talk about players who use it on ladder. | ||
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Inex
Bulgaria443 Posts
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Lucidx
United States122 Posts
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
Grubby accepted to promote a method of cheating. PERIOD. Yeah, he did it for money, yeah they pay his salary, but corruption is also defined this way. + Show Spoiler + Corruption = wrongdoing on the part of an authority or powerful party through means that are illegitimate, immoral, or incompatible with ethical standards. Corruption often results from patronage and is associated with bribery. Example: Bobby fisher was asked by a company making shampoos to say he washes his hair with their product. He was offered a lot of cash to say that, but he refused saying he cannot lie to so many people and he made that offer public. I am not saying that what Grubby did is as bad as political corruption, but also saying he has no fault in this is plain WRONG!! Grubby is a major, as in he is 18, so everything he does must be run through his rationality filter. | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
OP of this thread has a screenshot of the reply from a blizzard Game Master concerning macro key usage in SC2. (He says you can get banned for it) | ||
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:55 Inex wrote: SteelSeries obviously asked Grubby to do an ad for their keyboard. They are his main sponsor, guess what Grubby should do, stop hating the dude. I don't see why so many people are so offended of one stupid ad. It's clear that no one at steelseries actually bothered to check whether SC2 promotes the use of macros. I guess if it worked for WoW it should be fine for SC2, right SteelSeries? It's partially Grubby's responsibility to make sure his sponsors don't harm both his and their reputation by advertising things like these. | ||
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Soleron
United Kingdom1324 Posts
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Merfyn
United Kingdom945 Posts
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Akta
447 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:48 maJes wrote: You can't say it does not refer to sc2 just like they did not write "Buy this and use amazing macros when you ladder" either. Unfortunately while the context implies that this refers to SC2 it doesn't actually. But dare I say that a huge majority will think it refers to sc2 when they read this: SteelSeries Zboard Limited Edition Keyset (StarCraft II) Designed specifically for Blizzard Entertainment's highly anticipated Starcraft® II Wings of Liberty™, SteelSeries introduces the StarCraft® II Limited Edition Zboard™ Keyset. The custom designed keyset features labeled game commands on each key, in-game shortcuts, and artwork from the game. The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM). | ||
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Krehlmar
Sweden1149 Posts
Great job of reading the information of the video. | ||
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legatus legionis
Netherlands559 Posts
I also do not see what is wrong here, really. It could be a skirmish vs the computer, it could be a singleplayer game. And here it comes, it doesn't matter at all in what setting you promote the product, because all you do is promote the product itself for what it's features are capable of doing. It doesn't promote using those features in the exact same way as they are demonstrated. Just that it's possible. Isn't that the same as a car commercial, where the car drives faster than allowed? Or a "funny" commercial where they throw a piano out of a window? Nowhere does cheating get promoted. All that gets promoted are the features and the possiblities that keyboard can do. If you want to use those you can, if you want to use those in a game where it's your own responsibility to know what you can and can't do, and it so happens that it's not actually allowed on paper as to prohibit exploitation and allow the developers to maintain legal control over the usage of their product then that is your fault. On June 10 2011 00:56 MindRush wrote: Grubby accepted to promote a method of cheating. PERIOD. Grubby is a major, as in he is 18, so everything he does must be run through his rationality filter. He's an adult, 24 - 25. Rationality is just a way to logically create an argument to support something. It has no bearing on morality. You can just as easily rationalize something that is considered to be wrong. More often than not, when the time comes it turns out you are wrong, you will rationalize so that you aren't. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9687/macros.png) white knights in this thread just got owned. | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:58 Krehlmar wrote: "Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software." Great job of reading the information of the video. Great job of reading the topic or the Blizzard ToS. It's not just competitive play where it is not allowed. | ||
Epoxide
Magic Woods9326 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:58 Krehlmar wrote: "Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software." Great job of reading the information of the video. Great job of reading any post in this thread or the ToS ^_____^;; | ||
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maJes
United Kingdom186 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:58 Akta wrote: You can't say it does not refer to sc2 just like they did not write "Buy this and use amazing macros when you ladder" either. But dare I say that it's a huge majority will think it refers to sc2 when they read this: I can see what you're saying, but they chose their wording extremely well here so that you can't point out that they said you could use macros for SC2 explicitly. I agree that it's misleading but personally I thought that players would know more about the macro policy given the length of time it's been around with WoW. | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:58 Krehlmar wrote: "Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software." Great job of reading the information of the video. Thank you for pointing that out. It shows that Steelseries think that it is legal to use it outside of most competetive tournaments. They are dead wrong. One could expect them to get their facts straight... | ||
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DoubleB
Germany870 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:56 MindRush wrote: C'mon people, STOP saying Grubby has no fault in this. Grubby accepted to promote a method of cheating. PERIOD. Agree with you. I think its like talking about anabolic steroids in soccer, football or baseball. If a "pro" talks about taking it, you dont blame the producer!!!! You blame the sportsman! Because he is an idiot. | ||
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Samhax
1054 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:58 legatus legionis wrote: I don't see how it's bad or warrants a title like that. Just because it has a question mark behind it, doesn't mean you can just say anything you want because hey, it's only a question right? That alone already indicates the thread title isn't as "pure" as is generally desired from "objective" journalism. Guess that isn't the case so for sure it's subjective and I don't like it. I also do not see what is wrong here, really. It could be a skirmish vs the computer, it could be a singleplayer game. And here it comes, it doesn't matter at all in what setting you promote the product, because all you do is promote the product itself for what it's features are capable of doing. It doesn't promote using those features in the exact same way as they are demonstrated. Just that it's possible. Isn't that the same as a car commercial, where the car drives faster than allowed? Or a "funny" commercial where they throw a piano out of a window? Nowhere does cheating get promoted. All that gets promoted are the features and the possiblities that keyboard can do. If you want to use those you can, if you want to use those in a game where it's your own responsibility to know what you can and can't do, and it so happens that it's not actually allowed on paper as to prohibit exploitation and allow the developers to maintain legal control over the usage of their product then that is your fault. thanks sir, well written post. | ||
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godemperor
Belgium2043 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:58 Kiante wrote: white knights in this thread just got owned. QFT | ||
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Jhax
Ireland201 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:51 TMOUllrich wrote: There's no difference whatsoever. I don't care how a product is represented, it's still the same product and it still does the same thing and they know that and we know that. Stop being naive and open your eyes. Criticize grubby here and you also must critizie blizzard. Guns can be used for hunting game or for killing people. Obviously gun advertisers don't promote armed murder, but the same product fulfills the same function. The degree of that example is obviously much harsher, but the relation is the exact same. | ||
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Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
From Blizzard's endorsed keyboard, sold in their store: The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute Ignoring all of this... Let's not forget the main fact that there's a freaking disclaimer right under the video for christ's sake. Grubby is just fulfilling his sponsorship duties by showing off the capabilities of the keyboard. This is a complete non-issue in my eyes, but if you feel it's a problem, you also need to be pointing your finger at Blizzard. | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:01 Jhax wrote: Grubby should have known better to endorce this product. It's giving an advantage and thus is cheating. Don't know why steelseries would even think of making such a product. Nothing is inherently bad about keyboards with macro functions they can be useful in games where their use is accepted or single player ... or just non-game applications. | ||
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ThatGuy89
United Kingdom1968 Posts
 maybe making no money from NASL encouraged him to do this cant get banned for it, its not against rules to own the keyboard, just use it like that | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
The problem is, how you can stop this from happening, I don't think it's officially cheating. It's not like blizzard can ban you for using ur keyboard drivers | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44708 Posts
This is making both of them look bad. And I'm certainly thinking less of Grubby because of this. Grubby could have declined. He should be aware that what he is promoting is illegal. If he wants the money, then he is more than welcome to promote the macros... but obviously he should be aware that he is going to get negative publicity for sponsoring something that's against the game. | ||
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felizuno
United States164 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I am disappointed :/ I'm not too bothered by it, either because I know Grubby doesn't use it or two because he's more of a micro players thanks to WC3 | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:29 XdtA wrote: Blizzard sells SC2 macro keyboards. http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 This makes me sick, if any progamer uses this I sure ain't gonna respect them no longer. | ||
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Bondator
Finland120 Posts
I'm guessing the amount of people banned for using keyboard macros is about zero. | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
I wonder if people would react the same way if it was Cruncher promoting the keyboard.. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:03 Mikilatov wrote: As has been stated, you can't blame Grubby for this without blaming Blizzard as well. Evidence has been shown that the Blizzard promoted keyboards also suggest and strongly imply the use of macro commands under the banner of both the Blizzard and Starcraft 2 name. It also likely comes with a users manual and/or software explaining how to use these controls, plastered with the SC2 and Blizzard logo. Come on. Let's be serious here. People aren't stupid, they can put 2 and 2 together. Ignoring all of this... Let's not forget the main fact that there's a freaking disclaimer right under the video for christ's sake. Grubby is just fulfilling his sponsorship duties by showing off the capabilities of the keyboard. This is a complete non-issue in my eyes. putting a false disclaimer on something thats obviously cheating makes it ok? say i make a video (in the same light as jibba's comment) that shows how to murder someone efficiently and put a disclaimer "IN MOST COUNTRIES YOU CANT USE THIS BUT WHATEVER" you think thats ok? seriously? stop being stupid. everyone KNOWS this is cheating, people saying the disclaimer somehow makes grubby or steelseries innocent is just plain wrong. | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:00 maJes wrote: I agree but it doesn't seem right to call out Grubby for being a bad guy when there are ads like that from Blizzard.I can see what you're saying, but they chose their wording extremely well here so that you can't point out that they said you could use macros for SC2 explicitly. I agree that it's misleading but personally I thought that players would know more about the macro policy given the length of time it's been around with WoW. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:55 Samhax wrote: You think big names in ladder will use this kind of macro and then being completely screw up in lan event, get serious please...Only "bad" players will use this kind of macro and then it's pointless to talk about players who use it on ladder. I wasn't refering to big names. What i meant was that the disclaimer acknowledges this and is considering its uses for non-competitive play (ladder and tourney are competitive, just so you know). | ||
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Dislexic
United Kingdom37 Posts
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:07 OrangeSoda wrote: steelseries asked him to do a commercial for them, hes not goona say no to his biggest sponsor derp So you're saying that he should do anything they ask? what if some steelseries exec starts betting on games and wants grubby to lose on purpose. Should he do that just cuz his sponsor asked? | ||
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Disconnect
United States84 Posts
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maJes
United Kingdom186 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:05 Akta wrote: I agree but it doesn't seem right to call out Grubby for being a bad guy when there are ads like that from Blizzard. I don't think it's fair to lay all the blame on Grubby, but I don't think he's coming off very well here either. If he said something to Steelseries and they ignored him and made him do the ad anyway then he's done nothing wrong. I don't think many professional sportspersons would knowingly attach themselves to an ad endorsing 'illegal' acts though, sponsor or not. | ||
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inFeZa
Australia556 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:08 Disconnect wrote: These macro keys aren't even useful. I have no idea why all these companies think we want them. The only games I can think of them being useful in is MMOs but those generally have macro functionality built into the game anyway. One has hims advertising something illegal, advertising it is not an illegal action, the product may be. Your example is having him perform a direct illegal action. Good try. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
-jk for SS : bad example of milking cow | ||
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Fraidnot
United States824 Posts
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
-Grubby: Fulfilling his contract to Steelseries = No problem. -Steelseries: Trying to sell their product to make money = No problem. -Blizzard: Selling those macro keyboards in the Blizzard store and then banning you for it = Greed topped with Hypocrisy. If you are in a bad mood and feel like hatting on someone, it should be Blizzard. | ||
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dANiELcanuck
Canada217 Posts
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:09 Torte de Lini wrote: One has hims advertising something illegal, advertising it is not an illegal action, the product may be. Your example is having him perform a direct illegal action. Good try. well hitler didn't drive the tanks into poland so i guess he shouldn't be responsible right? | ||
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bobbingmatt
Australia224 Posts
Steelseries: As mentioned in the disclaimer above, we are of course aware that most tournaments are not allowing macro use. However, the majority of SC2 players are not playing competitively, and could benefit from using these features. Grubby is of course only demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software, as he is an active professional. Apologies for any confusion this might have caused. I just think that Steelseries didn't realize that using macros was against the TOS... They weren't trying to promote cheating, but at the same time needed to do more research. | ||
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TheBJ
Bulgaria906 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:10 kasumimi wrote: To sum up the thread: -Grubby: Fulfilling his contract to Steelseries = No problem. -Steelseries: Trying to sell their product to make money = No problem. -Blizzard: Selling those macro keyboards in the Blizzard store and then banning you for it = Greed topped with Hypocrisy. pretty much , this thread is pointless. Grubby is doing what he is said to. | ||
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Kanil
United States1713 Posts
I guess you can use macros when you play on LAN -- maybe SteelSeries is marketing to the BW crowd. :p | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:12 bobbingmatt wrote: I just think that Steelseries didn't realize that using macros was against the TOS... if they thought it was against the rules in tournaments do you think they couldn't have taken the couple of minutes to do a quick search through to the TOS to find out? | ||
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Msr
Korea (South)495 Posts
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
The video even has a disclaimer, but i honestly believe people would rather find things to whine about hurting ESPORTS/no longer fan of X player/random drama trash that is really popular all of the sudden. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6235 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:08 Kiante wrote: So you're saying that he should do anything they ask? what if some steelseries exec starts betting on games and wants grubby to lose on purpose. Should he do that just cuz his sponsor asked? stop argueing in extreme's it's a bad way of debating. people make to big of a deal out of these sort of things, steelseries made a mistake these things happen chill out :p. | ||
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FMJ
United States169 Posts
If I caught my opponent using one of these, I'd go to his house and beat him over the head with it. What's the macro for pick up keyboard -> raise keyboard -> bash head with keyboard -> repeat? BOOM SANDWICH | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:11 Kiante wrote: well hitler didn't drive the tanks into poland so i guess he shouldn't be responsible right? Keep on escalating. Hitler ordered those attacks and had malicious intent. | ||
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btxmonty
Panama80 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:10 kasumimi wrote: To sum up the thread: -Grubby: Fulfilling his contract to Steelseries = No problem. -Steelseries: Trying to sell their product to make money = No problem. -Blizzard: Selling those macro keyboards in the Blizzard store and then banning you for it = Greed topped with Hypocrisy. I don't think there is anything else to say... I can't bash grubby, the guy is still trying to survive as a pro-gamer and hasn't been able to adapt correctly. Gaming has been his job for so many years, I don't think he would just deny SS to promote something even BLIZZARD sells in their store. | ||
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Ambasa
United States29 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:15 Torte de Lini wrote: Keep on escalating. Hitler ordered those attacks and had malicious intent. GODWIN's LAW | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:14 RvB wrote: stop argueing in extreme's it's a bad way of debating. people make to big of a deal out of these sort of things, steelseries made a mistake these things happen chill out :p. How is this extreme? If he's shown he's capable of putting aside his morals for this, what is to stop him doing it for other things. Its pretty clear that grubby only cares about money and not about the integrity of the game. people saying this only affects lower league players a) dont really understand how much this could be exploited and b) dont realise that theres a whole mass of lower league players and this could potentially ruin the game. If you ahve an opponent on ladder using this they have a huge unfair advantage thats against the rules, and grubby is the one who took money to promote it. thats dirty as fuck | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:15 Torte de Lini wrote: Keep on escalating. Hitler ordered those attacks and had malicious intent. Grubby's intent is pure? i dont think so | ||
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TI83
78 Posts
Would you say that Grubby is not responsible / not to blame ? That's the exact same situation. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
So basicly this is a video where gruby say that he cheat and explain how to cheat in the game. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6235 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:17 Kiante wrote: How is this extreme? If he's shown he's capable of putting aside his morals for this, what is to stop him doing it for other things. Its pretty clear that grubby only cares about money and not about the integrity of the game. people saying this only affects lower league players a) dont really understand how much this could be exploited and b) dont realise that theres a whole mass of lower league players and this could potentially ruin the game. If you ahve an opponent on ladder using this they have a huge unfair advantage thats against the rules, and grubby is the one who took money to promote it. thats dirty as fuck Yes, doing an ad for your sponsor to advertise a macro keyboard is seriously for someone without morale, go reread your posts and if you still don't see why you're debating in extreme's I am done talking to you anyway I'll stop derailing the thread. | ||
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Butcherski
Poland446 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:17 Kiante wrote: How is this extreme? If he's shown he's capable of putting aside his morals for this, what is to stop him doing it for other things. Its pretty clear that grubby only cares about money and not about the integrity of the game. people saying this only affects lower league players a) dont really understand how much this could be exploited and b) dont realise that theres a whole mass of lower league players and this could potentially ruin the game. If you ahve an opponent on ladder using this they have a huge unfair advantage thats against the rules, and grubby is the one who took money to promote it. thats dirty as fuck OMG YES, THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME, RIMSHOT E-SPORTS ARGUMENT!!11 Whether Grubby promotes it or not doesn't really change much that it will be on the market, it will garner the interest of those with malicious intent and if you're concerned with mixed messages being sent out to potential innocent buyers, consider Blizzard's own mistakes. Your example of Hitler in comparison to grubby and "morals" are vastly different and on a whole new level. First off, I think you mean values. Secondly, I think you need to consider other factors besides the redundant issue of "money". It's equivalent or on a comparable level as Hitler and genocide? I don't think so. | ||
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Eluadyl
Turkey364 Posts
These kind of equipment have always been around and were always promoted by progamers in someway or another. This one suffers from being a little careless but no big deal imho. | ||
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Marcus420
Canada1923 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:17 Kiante wrote: How is this extreme? If he's shown he's capable of putting aside his morals for this, what is to stop him doing it for other things. Its pretty clear that grubby only cares about money and not about the integrity of the game. people saying this only affects lower league players a) dont really understand how much this could be exploited and b) dont realise that theres a whole mass of lower league players and this could potentially ruin the game. If you ahve an opponent on ladder using this they have a huge unfair advantage thats against the rules, and grubby is the one who took money to promote it. thats dirty as fuck Its extreme because youre blowing things way out of proportion. Everyone makes mistakes. Maybe grubby didnt even know that its illegal to do so by blizzards ToS? Ever consider that? this would hardly ruin the game. macros would not make you any better than you are already | ||
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Fleebenworth
463 Posts
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:19 RvB wrote: Yes, doing an ad for your sponsor to advertise a macro keyboard is seriously for someone without morale, go reread your posts and if you still don't see why you're debating in extreme's I am done talking to you anyway I'll stop derailing the thread. How is this derailing. This is the whole point of this thread. Grubby made a video to promote cheating. He would've been aware that it was cheating. He would've had a chance to turn it down. He did neither. People saying he had to do it are wrong, people saying its kosher are wrong. I dont see how promoting cheating and cheating are suddenly mutually exclusive. | ||
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Sverigevader
Sweden388 Posts
It's as if a hockey team would set up snipers mid game and shoot the gear off of the other teams goalie... | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:18 TI83 wrote: Imagine some company was selling a maphack, and Grubby would do a video explaining why you should get it etc.. Would you say that Grubby is not responsible / not to blame ? That's the exact same situation. Is the maphack from a responsible, credible company who directly supports E-Sports and its players to provide years of entertainment, value and worth? | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
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DJFaqU
466 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:11 Kiante wrote: well hitler didn't drive the tanks into poland so i guess he shouldn't be responsible right? FUCK YEAH GODWIN'S LAW. Personally, I find the whole affair hilarious. Now unknowing people will buy the keyboard, use a bunch of macros and will eventually be banned by Blizzard for doing so. I don't see anything wrong with that, it's up to them to read the goddamn ToS and adhere to them. | ||
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Chinchillin
United States259 Posts
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Alver
United States177 Posts
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:22 Kiante wrote: How is this derailing. This is the whole point of this thread. Grubby made a video to promote cheating. He would've been aware that it was cheating. He would've had a chance to turn it down. He did neither. People saying he had to do it are wrong, people saying its kosher are wrong. I dont see how promoting cheating and cheating are suddenly mutually exclusive. Please, leap to more conclusions. Also, please associate promoting a product for your sponsor is in any way comparable to throwing a game. You realize, Blizzard has one of these keyboards made specifically for Starcraft 2 as well right? It's not like the biggest deal, was it a stupid decision to promote this way by both SteelSeries and Grubby? Probably. Is it in any way comparable with cheating or match fixing? Fuck no, get your fanaticism out of here. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:25 Chinchillin wrote: Nice slanderous title The title is the exact situation. Regardless of whether Blizzard does it too, Grubby is promoting a way to cheat in SC2. The counterarguments about Blizzard are just a red herring (although as I said before, Blizzard's actions are dubious as well.) | ||
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JLew
Canada353 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:17 Kiante wrote: How is this extreme? If he's shown he's capable of putting aside his morals for this, what is to stop him doing it for other things. Its pretty clear that grubby only cares about money and not about the integrity of the game. people saying this only affects lower league players a) dont really understand how much this could be exploited and b) dont realise that theres a whole mass of lower league players and this could potentially ruin the game. If you ahve an opponent on ladder using this they have a huge unfair advantage thats against the rules, and grubby is the one who took money to promote it. thats dirty as fuck lol this is almost as dramatic as the thread title. | ||
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alda
France68 Posts
No matter how you see it, even in custom games vs friends, using macros is pure and simple cheating. Of course it's not new and these products exist for a long time and have already been advertized specifically for sc2 but that doesn't make it fine. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
But that's it. It just makes him look back, I don't really judge farther than that. | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:22 Kiante wrote: How is this derailing. This is the whole point of this thread. Grubby made a video to promote cheating. He would've been aware that it was cheating. He would've had a chance to turn it down. He did neither. People saying he had to do it are wrong, people saying its kosher are wrong. I dont see how promoting cheating and cheating are suddenly mutually exclusive. AGAIN I feel the need to tell you that you DO NOT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TURN THE COMMERCIAL DOWN without effectively ruining his career. Think before you post. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
But the truth is : its not allowed in ANY tournament ANY ladder game ANY custom game, ANY sc2 game. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
Also, I don't think the argue " You can use it if you are not in a tournament" This is bullshit, I surely don't want the guy that play against me on Bnet use something like this. Its just not fair, and take away alot of game. I am not going to buy anymore steelseries products in the future. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:27 barkles wrote: AGAIN I feel the need to tell you that you DO NOT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TURN THE COMMERCIAL DOWN without effectively ruining his career. Think before you post. AND? If he has a sponsor that say: make ad for cheating or you loose your contract He ruining his career in the sec he agreed. You have allays a choice. its not like they pull out a gun and force him to do it. They gave him money and he decide on his own, with his free will, to take this money! | ||
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NIIINO
Slovakia1320 Posts
But No thank you razor, SS we dont really need macro keys in SC but nice try. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:29 Torte de Lini wrote: Does Grubby even know this is cheating? Select didn't know that playing on other people's accounts to raise their ranks was illegal. did grubby install sc2? If he did he would've agreed to the TOS. For something as shady as this the responsibility is his to go back and check that it's allowed. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:25 Alver wrote: Wow is mainly a PvE feast, noone care what you do when you vs the Lich King or whatever. But when it comes to people vs people, I think guys in bronze would care alot if his opponent got some marco keyboard or not. | ||
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Nivoh
Norway259 Posts
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Merfyn
United Kingdom945 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:28 Caphe wrote: Poor move by Steelseries and Grubby. There are some of celebrity refuse to do commercial for companies that they think may mislead people. Also, I don't think the argue " You can use it if you are not in a tournament" This is bullshit, I surely don't want the guy that play against me on Bnet use something like this. Its just not fair, and take away alot of game. I am not going to buy anymore steelseries products in the future. who? just wondering since im quite sure alot of people (celberitys included) would do alot for money. Take for example, the thread recently posted in General Forums, he sold his Kindey for $2000. Just saying, if you were offered alot of money to do very little, wouldnt you take it? | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
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Samhax
1054 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:25 Jibba wrote: The title is the exact situation. Regardless of whether Blizzard does it too, Grubby is promoting a way to cheat in SC2. The counterarguments about Blizzard are just a red herring (although as I said before, Blizzard's actions are dubious as well.) For me the right title would be Grubby promotes Keyboards with macro in sc2, is it right? Then we can discuss about macros in competitive play, casual play, the ToS, Blizzard, etc. This title is clearly unfair for him. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
this is against blizzard TOS. it woulnt seem right if they keep that commercial alive. they are suporting E-sports in some extend but with this one, is contradictory. | ||
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barkles
United States285 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:30 skeldark wrote: AND? If he has a sponsor that say: make ad for cheating or you loose your contract He ruining his career in the sec he agreed. You have allays a choice. its not like they pull out a gun and force him to do it. They gave him money and he decide on his own, with his free will, to take this money! Im not saying that Grubby did the right thing. What I am saying is that we are not in a position to be able to judge Grubby's decision to take part in the commercial because we lack information on the details of the arrangement between Grubby and Steelseries. The party responsible for the content of the commercial was Steelseries, and the representative that Steelseries chose to represent that message was Grubby. That's all we know. | ||
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
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Rasun
United States787 Posts
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worosei
Australia198 Posts
or even just some crazy inject larvae script or blanket storms going off.... | ||
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Kinetik_Inferno
United States1431 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:58 Kiante wrote: white knights in this thread just got owned. Precisely. -_- Don't do it. Grubby is paid to advertise and endorse his sponsor's products. Nothing more. As innovative as steel series wants to try and be, they really should consider 'fair play' before releasing such a product. I see a lot of people getting banned for using this keyboard on Ladder. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:34 Samhax wrote: For me the right title would be Grubby promotes Keyboards with macro in sc2, is it right? Then we can discuss about macros in competitive play, casual play, the ToS, Blizzard, etc. This title is clearly unfair for him. you dont get it. Macros = cheating If you play any game on battle net (1. or 2.) and use macro keys like he explain, you are cheating. So the title is total objective and fair. He explain how to cheat. this is not a opinion or something to discuss this is the fact. All whats left to discuss is: if cheating is ok or not and if this video is an confession that he cheats | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:34 Samhax wrote: For me the right title would be Grubby promotes Keyboards with macro in sc2, is it right? Then we can discuss about macros in competitive play, casual play, the ToS, Blizzard, etc. This title is clearly unfair for him. He's not just showing off keyboards. This isn't Rotty or someone saying "I use a Blackwidow." He's actually showing and explaining the different SC2 production/control macros. He's basically selling the software package more than the keyboard itself. For those who didn't watch far into the video, one of the macros: Starts production on X numbers of units, rallies them to a specific location, while also grabbing two other control groups of units and pointing them to that location and combining them into a single group. That's (in this case it was 6 marines) 12+ actions combined into 2 actions, macro button and location click. | ||
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Jonstah
79 Posts
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
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Alver
United States177 Posts
my point overall though is that unless a keyboard is able to presicely click your screen this doesnt do as much as people think. there wont be any silver players that beat diamond players because of macros and there will probably no masters players that use macros regularly as your intentionally slowing down your improvement in this game for a macro advantage. if one diamond player beat the other with keyboard macros, and they both played the same amount for the next 6 months the one with a regular keyboard would probably be the better of the 2 after 6 months and would win keyboard or not. | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
They only used grubby(because he is e-famous) and sc2 just to show what you can do, not what you should do! duh? | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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BroboCop
United States373 Posts
As for steelseries, I highly doubt that they knew it was against the EULA of blizzard and most likely will drop the add. | ||
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shaNk
Canada124 Posts
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parkin
1080 Posts
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:38 Jibba wrote: He's not just showing off keyboards. This isn't Rotty or someone saying "I use a Blackwidow." He's actually showing and explaining the different SC2 production/control macros. He's basically selling the software package more than the keyboard itself. Yeah, this is exactly what it is. But I don't think we can blame him much for this cos SS sponsors him. However I hope that SS will realize this will do terrible terrible damage for their reputation, and pull the products off the market. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:31 Kiante wrote: did grubby install sc2? If he did he would've agreed to the TOS. For something as shady as this the responsibility is his to go back and check that it's allowed. There's a difference between knowing and should know. See my previous example with Select. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:42 Torte de Lini wrote: There's a difference between knowing and should know. See my previous example with Select. Yes, but if he installed the game then he must have reached a point at which he hit "I AGREE" to the terms of use. That means he can no longer say "Oh, I didn't know". | ||
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Kira__
Sweden2672 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:42 Caphe wrote: Yeah, this is exactly what it is. But I don't think we can blame him much for this cos SS sponsors him. However I hope that SS will realize this will do terrible terrible damage for their reputation, and pull the products off the market. pull their products off the market? You are aware that pretty much any gaming keyboard have the exact same features? Only difference is this video shows you how to use it. | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:42 Caphe wrote: Yeah, this is exactly what it is. But I don't think we can blame him much for this cos SS sponsors him. However I hope that SS will realize this will do terrible terrible damage for their reputation, and pull the products off the market. Pull the products? LOL There are more games than SC2.... They should probably take the video down though. It will just get them more shit than its worth. Grubby obviously doesn't need to use macros to play so I doubt he can get in any trouble for this. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
Not researching the starcraft market very well and think its the bronze players that they have to tap into rather than the gold through masters. And then using a progamer to advertise actions that are almost never condoned by diamond and up players. I think this will do more harm than good in terms of costumers from the SC2 scene for Steelseeries. I hope Razer sees this as a time to gain ground on the sc2 market by bringing out an advert that is truely aligned to the market, they could win some costumers over Steelseries I bet. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:42 Torte de Lini wrote: There's a difference between knowing and should know. See my previous example with Select. Select is just as bad. you are forced to agree to the TOS when you install sc2 and theres no excuses when you fuck up, especially something this obvious and this public. assuming that select and grubby are just stupid is pretty dumb tbh. grubby played wc3 for years? Pretty sure they had similar rules in that too.... | ||
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alda
France68 Posts
Of course macro can help you tremendously and if pros don't use it, that's not because "it's useless for them" or that they "wouldn't improve using it", its just that's it's purely and simply forbidden. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:44 Razuik wrote: Yes, but if he installed the game then he must have reached a point at which he hit "I AGREE" to the terms of use. That means he can no longer say "Oh, I didn't know". Legally, yeah. I was speaking more on general terms and in a hypothetic situation. It's not a strong argument, I'll agree, just a point to consider. | ||
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ckunkel1
United States181 Posts
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
afaik breaking a TOS isn't illegal. | ||
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
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xsevR
United States324 Posts
It's not cheating to demo the feature of a product, and there's clearly acceptable uses (single player?) for macros if blizzard sponsors other keyboards/they exist. Using the keyboard, even if it's in a product video, isn't promoting cheating, because its possible to use the keyboard without cheating. Grubby is not responsible for this at all, and I highly doubt Steelseries would develop the product/make this add without some type of research. This isn't new information and it could mean a lot of their customers getting banned. Not only would this be a PR nightmare but would directly lose them customers and reputation. Again, not the first macro-keyboard to be advertised for SC2. | ||
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SuperStyle
United States976 Posts
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:45 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Can you really use the word illegal here? afaik breaking a TOS isn't illegal. i agree on this. the word is wrong in this situation. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:45 Torte de Lini wrote: Legally, yeah. I was speaking more on general terms and in a hypothetic situation. It's not a strong argument, I'll agree, just a point to consider. I can see what you mean. In the eyes of a fan the "I AGREE" doesn't effect them. He is responsible in terms of relation to blizzard. | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:46 SuperStyle wrote: World of Warcraft has addons and custom keyboards to help you in pvp or pve, why shouldnt SC2 have ? You need to read the ToS. | ||
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Xavv
Canada168 Posts
No blame can really be put on Grubby here because I doubt anybody would turn down the no doubt foolish amount of money that he was paid to do this. You don't say no to money. Not for something like this anyway. | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:25 Jibba wrote: The title is the exact situation. Regardless of whether Blizzard does it too, Grubby is promoting a way to cheat in SC2. The counterarguments about Blizzard are just a red herring (although as I said before, Blizzard's actions are dubious as well.) I'm sorry I had to log in from work just to debate this. How is Grubby promoting cheating in SC2 here Jibba, are you serious? Not only that, this title is horrendously misleading and slanderous, Grubby doesn't deserve that. He's not TELLING you to go macro-cheat, what I got from this is this; he's condoning the use of macros and showing you how to use them. Everyone has already pointed out Razer & Blizzard sell similar type of keyboards which can do the same thing, SteelSeries is just putting that in motion here by showing you how to go about using these functions present on the keyboards. I can best relate this with an analogy like this one: You are being taught how to use a Rifle. Does that mean the teacher is condoning the murder of human beings or animals? You can stretch that border of accusation, and if anything we can agree it's controversial; therefore this title should err on the side of neutrality/caution in the matter. Obviously the intent here isn't to promote "cheating", SteelSeries isn't an ignorant company to promote something illegal. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:47 Razuik wrote: I can see what you mean. In the eyes of a fan the "I AGREE" doesn't effect them. why do i have to think about the iphone southpark episode when i read this | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:48 Xavv wrote: Looks bad on Steelseries =\. No blame can really be put on Grubby here because I doubt anybody would turn down the no doubt foolish amount of money that he was paid to do this. You don't say no to money. Not for something like this anyway. Wheres the line? So promoting cheating for money is fine, what isn't? Is it ok for grubby to stream his ladder games using this if he gets paid? What if he uses it in an online tourney. Cheating is cheating. You cant just draw arbitrary lines in the sand because he's famous... | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:48 Slardar wrote: I'm sorry I had to log in from work just to debate this. How is Grubby promoting cheating in SC2 here Jibba, are you serious? Not only that, this title is horrendously misleading and slanderous, Grubby doesn't deserve that. He's not TELLING you to go macro-cheat, what I got from this is this; he's condoning the use of macros and showing you how to use them. Everyone has already pointed out Razer & Blizzard sell similar type of keyboards which can do the same thing, SteelSeries is just putting that in motion here by showing you how to go about using these functions present on the keyboards. I can best relate this with an analogy like this one: You are being taught how to use a Rifle. Does that mean the teacher is condoning the murder of human beings or animals? You can stretch that border of accusation, and if anything we can agree it's controversial; therefore this title should err on the side of neutrality/caution in the matter. Obviously the intent here isn't to promote "cheating", SteelSeries isn't an ignorant company to promote something illegal. When you get taught how to use a rifle, you shoot at targets. They dont show you a video of how to aim at someones head from a clocktower and pull the trigger | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:45 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Can you really use the word illegal here? afaik breaking a TOS isn't illegal. I'm pretty sure by illegal he means liable to be banned. | ||
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AeonStrife
United States918 Posts
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alda
France68 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:46 xsevR wrote: I think we all now that Grubby invented Macro keyboards and is responsible for anyone using them... It's not cheating to demo the feature of a product, and there's clearly acceptable uses (single player?) for macros if blizzard sponsors other keyboards/they exist. Using the keyboard, even if it's in a product video, isn't promoting cheating, because its possible to use the keyboard without cheating. Grubby is not responsible for this at all, and I highly doubt Steelseries would develop the product/make this add without some type of research. This isn't new information and it could mean a lot of their customers getting banned. Not only would this be a PR nightmare but would directly lose them customers and reputation. Again, not the first macro-keyboard to be advertised for SC2. Grubby is just not advertizing the keyboard in this video, he is specifically explaining how to make macros so yes, that's promoting cheating. Anyway, its not the end the world and I still wish for Grubby to be succesful in his sc2 carreer. Thing is, he actually did a mistake here, not a BIG mistake, but still a mistake. | ||
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Bedrock
United States395 Posts
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
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Gunther
Germany139 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:46 SuperStyle wrote: World of Warcraft has addons and custom keyboards to help you in pvp or pve, why shouldnt SC2 have ? Those macros still require 1 press per action, or they are against the TOS. For example, I have a G15, and back in the day a switch stance and charge macro was fine to have on my G5 key, but I had to press it twice. Same thing in SC2. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:47 Razuik wrote: I can see what you mean. In the eyes of a fan the "I AGREE" doesn't effect them. He is responsible in terms of relation to blizzard. Yeah, thanks for understanding. That was essentially what I meant. Doesn't make it any more right though or acceptable, just might make more sense. | ||
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
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Hypertension
United States802 Posts
The really damning part about this advert by Blizzard is when it says it can help Starcraft II players increase their APM. This means they expect you to use macros while playing, not 1:1 rebinds. Grubby has been around the scene a long time and does not promote cheating. He put a disclaimer in the video saying not to use the macros competitively. I can't find the disclaimer on the Blizzard keyboard. I know that we are saying that the Blizzard keyboard is shady, and that it is a red herring. But how do you blame Grubby for doing the same thing as the Blizzard store? Especially when Grubby at least has the decency to say to not use it competitively. | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
"it's like hitler" "add with murder.. bla bla" WTF? it's a fucking add do advertise what you can do with the keyboard! Do you guys only use your keyboard to play SC2? Can't a SC2 famous player make a add using the game he is knowned for explaining what you can do with the keyboard? Blizzard sells this and most agree that macros won't even give you an edge or atleast it's very debatable.. | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:25 Jibba wrote: Well the Steelseries ad is "worse" than Blizzards. However, it's Blizzards game which changes things. To illustrate: If the video was Blizzards and the blizzard ad was steelseries, would anyone call out steelseries?The title is the exact situation. Regardless of whether Blizzard does it too, Grubby is promoting a way to cheat in SC2. The counterarguments about Blizzard are just a red herring (although as I said before, Blizzard's actions are dubious as well.) Either way we don't know the background or anything. Perhaps Grubby thinks the only rules for these things are what tournaments decide. Perhaps he said something and steelseries showed him the blizzard ad or said they would of course include a disclaimer or whatever. You don't have to have strong feelings or opinions or even think about these things just because you are a pro, a lot of them probably just focus on what matters to them like playing the game and getting better. | ||
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:46 SuperStyle wrote: World of Warcraft has addons and custom keyboards to help you in pvp or pve, why shouldnt SC2 have ? thats a completely different thing.... | ||
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Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
 This must be a case of "any publicity is good publicity"Blows my mind how Grubby is fine with being the guy who teaches people to cheat, surely he should realize that his image is worth more than whatever he is being paid? | ||
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Error Ash
Germany177 Posts
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PigglyWinks
364 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:45 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Can you really use the word illegal here? afaik breaking a TOS isn't illegal. Illegal in English means both against the law (illegal in German) as well as against the rules (verboten? in German). | ||
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sureshot_
United States257 Posts
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
first of all the macros he showed are completely useless to a player who is any good second of all the game cannot detect the use of a macro key because it's just a series of inputs that are the same as you pressing the keys yourself third of all no one will get banned for macro key usage in sc2, because it isn't a concern to anyone.... i'd like to see a thread about someone complaining getting pummeled by a "macro key user" and finally this is sc2, mechanics are much easier. The same thing in SC BW is a much different situation and i can understand people getting angry over it | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:45 Kiante wrote: Select is just as bad. you are forced to agree to the TOS when you install sc2 and theres no excuses when you fuck up, especially something this obvious and this public. assuming that select and grubby are just stupid is pretty dumb tbh. grubby played wc3 for years? Pretty sure they had similar rules in that too.... Select pulled the offer 4 minutes or so after the TL topic though | ||
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TheBJ
Bulgaria906 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:54 Error Ash wrote: I think the only thing Grubby did wrong here was not to warn his sponsor that this is cheating and that this advertisement would make them look bad. Do u think he knew and didnt tell them. Im sure he just wasn't aware considering no pro is using macros anyway. | ||
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FMJ
United States169 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:31 Kiante wrote: did grubby install sc2? If he did he would've agreed to the TOS. For something as shady as this the responsibility is his to go back and check that it's allowed. Maybe he didn't read the ToS. In which case Steve Jobs is entitled to transform him into the ultimate all-in-one human interfacing machine: the Human CentiPad. | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
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Altar
United States577 Posts
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TheBJ
Bulgaria906 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:57 EmilA wrote: Very peculiar as Steelseries works so closely together with Blizzard. I know it's cheating, but are macros even detectable? yes and no , if that makes any sense to you. =] | ||
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ineq
Sweden376 Posts
SteelSeries on the other hand failed pretty hard. | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:57 EmilA wrote: Very peculiar as Steelseries works so closely together with Blizzard. I know it's cheating, but are macros even detectable? Yes, I don't know how but they are. | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:50 Kiante wrote: When you get taught how to use a rifle, you shoot at targets. They dont show you a video of how to aim at someones head from a clocktower and pull the trigger What's your point here? If I show you how to pull the trigger on a fake target-dummy deer, am I condoning killing deer? I'm merely the instructor doing my job, same with Grubby & SteelSeries doing their job showing you how to use their product. Your actually arguing a company as big as SteelSeries condones cheating. Blizzard isn't all clean on this either as people have pointed out, same with Razer. They aren't morons guys, can we be realistic? It would be nice if the title was something neutral so we could shift the conversation to something productive and focused instead of pointing the finger at Grubby. *Edit* - Personally, I hate that any of these functions even exist on any of the modern keyboards they are pitching it cheapens RTS and true skill. Exactly the same thing as the use of performance enhancing drugs. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:57 FMJ wrote: Maybe he didn't read the ToS. In which case Steve Jobs is entitled to transforming him into an all-in-one human interfacing machine: the Human CentiPad. Once you click the agree button its your responsibility to follow them. | ||
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xBlest
United States52 Posts
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:58 TheBJ wrote: yes and no , if that makes any sense to you. =] Macros leave a pretty clear signature as they will create action sequences which have a totally identical pattern and delay (action 1 -> constant amount of ms delay -> action 2 -> constant delay -> action 3 ...). Of course there is ways to obfuscate those patterns by using a variable delay but I doubt any keyboard does this (hacks might do it though) | ||
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JustPlay
United States211 Posts
(2) What's the point in macroing this stuff anyway? It doesn't give you an unfair advantage. (3) Why hate on Grubby for explaining the features of a keyboard created by his sponsor? (4) Macros can easily have random delay. (5) You can do this without the stupid keyboard and people have since beta. So many people are uppity here. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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Sprungjeezy
United States1313 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:05 JustPlay wrote: (1) It won't get you banned. (2) What's the point in macroing this stuff anyway? It doesn't give you an unfair advantage. (3) Why hate on Grubby for explaining the features of a keyboard created by his sponsor? (4) Macros can easily have random delay. (5) You can do this without the stupid keyboard and people have since beta. So many people are uppity here. 1. It will get you banned if caught. 2. It can EASILY give you an unfair advantage especially at high levels. 3. Yea, we shouldn't bash Grubby at all for this, its his responsibility to do this for his sponsors, but his sponsors responsibility for not doing something this retarded. 4. Umm, not sure what you're talking about, there are several ways of making macros, but as far as I know, the software used for the keyboard doesn't have delay commands. 5. Duh. | ||
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Sensator
Australia377 Posts
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:05 JustPlay wrote: (1) It won't get you banned. (2) What's the point in macroing this stuff anyway? It doesn't give you an unfair advantage. (3) Why hate on Grubby for explaining the features of a keyboard created by his sponsor? (4) Macros can easily have random delay. So many people are uppity here. 1) Yes it will 2) it gives you an unfair advantage by allowing you to peform menial tasks with many less clicks, artificially raising your apm above that of a normal player 3)because he shouldn't be promoting cheating. its against the TOS. 4) keyboard macro's wouldn't have delay assuming the keyboard and software aren't shit | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:59 Kiante wrote: Once you click the agree button its your responsibility to follow them. oh come on if you are grubby and see that you can execute 20 actions by clicking at a point and holding one button than you think either a) wow that doesn't seem right. looks like cheating. or b) hey this looks nifty. I wonder how I can use it at my next tournament. I'm 100% convinced that pros would find great ways to use macros at tournament play if it was allowed, despite all the guys who said that it is not that good. Wonder how much use IdrA could draw from this. So Grubby either knew that this is illegal or would try to use it. | ||
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FMJ
United States169 Posts
On one hand, even if they didn't like what they were doing, they could face severe punishment for disobeying their superiors. A soldier can't offend his commander, and Grubby can't offend his sponsor. On the other hand, it's not guaranteed that the soldiers didn't enjoy performing atrocities. Just like it's not guaranteed that Grubby actually had qualms with doing this commercial. If you ask me, the BOOM SANDWICH seemed overly enthused. So unless you can read Grubby's mind, there's little point in arguing here. There's no point in trying to figure out the foot soldier. All you can conclude is SteelSeries made a terrible mistake, which is the equivalent of agreeing the heads of Nazy Germany were bad people. | ||
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Excessive
Denmark151 Posts
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Pixel.
Netherlands287 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:05 JustPlay wrote: (1) It won't get you banned. (2) What's the point in macroing this stuff anyway? It doesn't give you an unfair advantage. (3) Why hate on Grubby for explaining the features of a keyboard created by his sponsor? (4) Macros can easily have random delay. (5) You can do this without the stupid keyboard and people have since beta. So many people are uppity here. U will be bannend for it. There are already people that are bannend for macrokey http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146760 | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:19 aristarchus wrote: I'm blaming Grubby, and I think some others are too. These things are against the terms of service. The disclaimer is wrong - they're illegal in any play of starcraft 2, whether it's a competitive tournament, ladder, campaign, whatever. Celebrities don't make any commercial anyone offers to pay them for... They're expected to have some editorial discretion and not endorse things that are harmful, illegal, unethical, etc. Fans (rightly) hold it against them when they do otherwise, and that's why professional athletes and so forth are usually so careful about it. Basically this. I'm quite stunned really, moreso of Grubby than Steelseries. Atleast I can say I am not certain if Steelseries knows this is considered cheating(they probably do) but Grubby surely knows that. Reputation > the money he makes from that commercial, so yer... | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:08 Zarahtra wrote: Basically this. I'm quite stunned really, moreso of Grubby than Steelseries. Atleast I can say I am not certain if Steelseries knows this is considered cheating(they probably do) but Grubby surely knows that. Reputation > the money he makes from that commercial, so yer... Doing a commercial is different than actually being caught cheating. I highly doubt this will impact Grubby's reputation at all. | ||
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PigglyWinks
364 Posts
The other big problem here is that Blizzard probably don't give a fuck if people cheat a little or gain unfair advantages as long as they make money from it. | ||
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Sky0
United States214 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
For Grubby it's just stupid to be affiliated with this | ||
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JustPlay
United States211 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:07 Kiante wrote: You won't get banned. That is support's official line, but no one is going to get banned for it. In any Blizzard game. That's just how it is. 1) Yes it will --img- 2) it gives you an unfair advantage by allowing you to peform menial tasks with many less clicks, artificially raising your apm above that of a normal player 3)because he shouldn't be promoting cheating. its against the TOS. 4) keyboard macro's wouldn't have delay assuming the keyboard and software aren't shit I don't feel someone using it has an unfair advantage over me. I don't really care about the ToS, only portions that are enforced. They can have configurable delay because it's relevant to macroing things. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:13 JustPlay wrote: You won't get banned. That is support's official line, but no one is going to get banned for it. In any Blizzard game. That's just how it is. I don't feel someone using it has an unfair advantage over me. I don't really care about the ToS, only portions that are enforced. They can have configurable delay because it's relevant to macroing things. If an official reply from blizzard support isn't enough to convince you, what is? should we try and get it worked into the next dustin browder interview? what would you say then? "oh dustin browder isn't the one clicking the ban button, this doesn't mean anything" lol. why are you so blind... | ||
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JustPlay
United States211 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:15 Kiante wrote: You're blind to the reality that you will never be banned for macroing in a Blizzard game unless you are afk. And even then, you probably won't be given how many people afk bot battlegrounds on WoW with AutoIt. If an official reply from blizzard support isn't enough to convince you, what is? should we try and get it worked into the next dustin browder interview? what would you say then? "oh dustin browder isn't the one clicking the ban button, this doesn't mean anything" lol. why are you so blind... People are making a big deal out of nothing. | ||
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Misanthrope
United States924 Posts
*faith in competitive gaming lost* | ||
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Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
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Moralez
Portugal1857 Posts
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:06 Sensator wrote: It's just a commercial, he gets sponsored and payed by SteelSeries, so he's promoting the product. Are you serious? He's a PRO GAMER, advertising a product that UNDERMINES COMPETITIVE GAMING! I really don't understand everyone's opinion that "it's part of his contract" I'm sure somewhere in this contract it stipulates that anything that could jeopardize grubby as a legitimate player in the community's eyes, or even something that promotes cheating (OBVIOUS CHEATING). Their comment in the video is LAUGHABLE as well. "Hey guys we know it's against the rules for comp game-play (but apparently not battle.net), so promise not to okay?" Obviously I don't think he (grubby) has, or ever will use this keyboard (and who knows, maybe he did do/say something >_> ), but if you seriously love Esports why wouldn't you say "Jeez guys I know it's contractually obligated that I be your spokesperson and figurehead, but this product will literally make nerds fester and explode in a fit of rage." Who is their demographic? Do they REALLY think people are going to shell out close to $100 bucks for a GAMING KEYBOARD unless they happen to be INTO COMPETITIVE GAMING! Really really really bad PR move. I don't understand HOW this happened. Steel series needs to do/say something about this. This is like a sports figure promoting sports betting, or a police officer teaching you how to smuggle drugs. Not to the same degree obviously, but in the same level of idiocy and irony. | ||
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Elite__
Canada976 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:12 Sky0 wrote: I dont understand why blizzard supports macros in wow and not sc2 kind of wierd but in wow its part of the game not a 3rd party program if u could make macros in game with starcraft it wouldnt be illegal i think its because in starcraft its a lot easier to get an advantage with macros (like, if you were able to make a macro that automatically queen injected at all your hatcheries with one button, it would help you produce a lot more units which is normally something that should come with a seasoned player), whereas in wow, the macros are just kind of gimmicky things like adding all your cooldowns to one button, just making it so you can press that one button multiple times instead of pressing 4 different buttons once. blizzard took out the ability to make macros that would do too much, like casting a sequence of spells over and over, so all you would have to do is hold down a button and you dont even have to play the game | ||
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smacky
United States108 Posts
its hard to say if grubby is in the wrong here...sponsors product...oh well lets not fyck up his career...movin on | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:15 JustPlay wrote: You're blind to the reality that you will never be banned for macroing in a Blizzard game unless you are afk. And even then, you probably won't be given how many people afk bot battlegrounds on WoW with AutoIt. People are making a big deal out of nothing. so blizzard aren't fantastic at enforcing their rules, therefore its ok for people to endorse breaking them? what if grubby came out with an ad about how to install and utilise a map hack? is that ok? blizzard are pretty slack in banning them too. | ||
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Samiz
Canada165 Posts
Besides, there is a good chance that SteelSeries told Grubby that this was legal in non-tournament play | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:16 Misanthrope wrote: SlayerS and TL are sponsored by Razer...and their keyboards have macro functionality...and EG is sponsored by SteelSeries! *faith in competitive gaming lost* That isn't the point though is it? There are plenty of ways to create macros like this, be it using a keyboard or not. Promoting it however for a game that doesn't allow it, is dubious at best. Add into it a respected player, giving people advice how to use it... Quite a bit further than just making keyboards that can do stuff like that. Heck I have often used programs that offer multible keystrokes(basically same as having the keyboard) for work related stuff, so it has it's uses beyond cheating(so the existance of the keyboard != for players to cheat... solely). | ||
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Elite__
Canada976 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:18 Klipsys wrote: Are you serious? He's a PRO GAMER, advertising a product that UNDERMINES COMPETITIVE GAMING! I really don't understand everyone's opinion that "it's part of his contract" I'm sure somewhere in this contract it stipulates that anything that could jeopardize grubby as a legitimate player in the community's eyes, or even something that promotes cheating (OBVIOUS CHEATING). Their comment in the video is LAUGHABLE as well. "Hey guys we know it's against the rules for comp game-play (but apparently not battle.net), so promise not to okay?" Obviously I don't think he (grubby) has, or ever will use this keyboard (and who knows, maybe he did do/say something >_> ), but if you seriously love Esports why wouldn't you say "Jeez guys I know it's contractually obligated that I be your spokesperson and figurehead, but this product will literally make nerds fester and explode in a fit of rage." Who is their demographic? Do they REALLY think people are going to shell out close to $100 bucks for a GAMING KEYBOARD unless they happen to be INTO COMPETITIVE GAMING! Really really really bad PR move. I don't understand HOW this happened. Steel series needs to do/say something about this. This is like a sports figure promoting sports betting, or a police officer teaching you how to smuggle drugs. Not to the same degree obviously, but in the same level of idiocy and irony. i agree, the demographic is probably competitive gamers for the most part. they should have advertised this with another game where it wouldn't have the potential to make such a big impact, instead of sc2 | ||
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Malystryx
China12 Posts
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
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Sinborn
United States275 Posts
"Hey, MMO gamers love macros. . . Why not try to capture the RTS market? They want an advantage too!" Bum bum bummmmm. | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:20 Kiante wrote: so blizzard aren't fantastic at enforcing their rules, therefore its ok for people to endorse breaking them? what if grubby came out with an ad about how to install and utilise a map hack? is that ok? blizzard are pretty slack in banning them too. Kiante man, listen. Blizzard THEMSELVES sells Macro-Keyboards, Razer does, so does SteelSeries. Your comparing using a function that exists on keyboards branded by Blizzard themselves with maphack. He's(Grubby) merely showing you how to use these functions(On a SteelSeries Keyboard, all these fundamentals taught apply for a Blizzard or Razer Keyboard), it is obvious he doesn't want you to go cheat. WHY ARE THESE FUNCTIONS THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE THEN?!? <---This is where the conversation should be heading. @Klipsys - Grubby has been pro-gaming for (8?) years, I'm pretty sure he's aware of the ramifications and would never condone cheating. How can you even judge the guy who's been making his living off pro gaming for God knows how long? | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:19 smacky wrote: oh my why are we even having a debate about it...macro players are bad pieces of shit but its kinda cute they get to just click "wherever the mutas are" and not worry about it....i prefer my method of playing the game. its hard to say if grubby is in the wrong here...sponsors product...oh well lets not fyck up his career...movin on People will cheat - Even respectable people. The methods of cheating can vary, but it's all with the same goal: Getting an (unfair) advantage. Macros are considered cheating for a reason. It's certainly not just the scrubs that can benefit from this. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:23 Slardar wrote: Kiante man, listen. Blizzard THEMSELVES sells Macro-Keyboards, Razer does, so does SteelSeries. Your comparing using a function that exists on keyboards branded by Blizzard themselves with maphack. He's merely showing you how to use these functions, it is obvious he doesn't want you to go cheat. WHY ARE THESE FUNCTIONS THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE THEN?!? <---This is where the conversation should be heading. Macro's can be used for other function, ie: in desktop, other games etc. | ||
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Philymaniz
United States177 Posts
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RBKeys
Canada196 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:18 Klipsys wrote: Are you serious? He's a PRO GAMER, advertising a product that UNDERMINES COMPETITIVE GAMING! How does it undermine competitive gaming? Any worth while tournament is going to make some kind of ruling against something like this, and if they don't or fail to enforce their rule then it's their own fault. Competitive gaming is fine lol. | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
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Aelip
Denmark321 Posts
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:27 RBKeys wrote: How does it undermine competitive gaming? Any worth while tournament is going to make some kind of ruling against something like this, and if they don't or fail to enforce their rule then it's their own fault. Competitive gaming is fine lol. What about the people who solely compete in ladder. People who really value their ladder ranking. it devalues their effort if noone gives a shit if people start using this stuff on ladder | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:25 Kiante wrote: Macro's can be used for other function, ie: in desktop, other games etc. That is obvious, that is why I used the GUN ANALOGY. You can use a gun to kill humans, animals, or for self-protection. It's exactly the same thing, can you think about it for a second before you post? | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:13 JustPlay wrote: You won't get banned. That is support's official line, but no one is going to get banned for it. In any Blizzard game. That's just how it is. I don't feel someone using it has an unfair advantage over me. I don't really care about the ToS, only portions that are enforced. They can have configurable delay because it's relevant to macroing things. Blizzard has done several ban waves in just starcraft 1 alone. | ||
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Nick!
Scotland701 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:28 Aelip wrote: Well considering grubby not doing very well in the scene, who cares. Wait what? | ||
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Response
United States1936 Posts
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:27 RBKeys wrote: How does it undermine competitive gaming? Any worth while tournament is going to make some kind of ruling against something like this, and if they don't or fail to enforce their rule then it's their own fault. Competitive gaming is fine lol. Grubby just promoted map hacking. Now read your comment. Now back to me... get it? | ||
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:20 Samiz wrote: This is seriously giving Grubby a bad name. If you know anything about him, you'd know that he's one of the most honest pro-gamers who always does things by the book. You have to realize that him doing this commercial is part of the business. If SteelSeries implements something like this, they are completely responsible for this product. Grubby is simply a spokesperson for SteelSeries. Besides, there is a good chance that SteelSeries told Grubby that this was legal in non-tournament play No, I'm sorry but that's just not how it works. In most cases, yes you're correct, but in this instance, with a product that blatantly violates rules of battle.net there was a serious lapse in judgment here. His refusal to promote this wouldn't have resulted in him being dropped, that's asinine, especcialy given the factors surrounding it's use. Even with 100% blizzard support (which I doubt but still) Remember how much flack Richman (NamhciR) got for smurfing in a tournament? How is this not the same thing? Because he was paid to do it? | ||
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RBKeys
Canada196 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:28 Kiante wrote: What about the people who solely compete in ladder. People who really value their ladder ranking. it devalues their effort if noone gives a shit if people start using this stuff on ladder Devalues their effort? Cheese play devalues their effort as well. You have lots of players try and play and get better and what do they face? Wall ins and all ins that screw them over anyways. Hell, maybe this will inspire people to learn better tactics since they won't need to rely on simple cheese to win. | ||
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redux46
Canada92 Posts
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:20 Kiante wrote: so blizzard aren't fantastic at enforcing their rules, therefore its ok for people to endorse breaking them? what if grubby came out with an ad about how to install and utilise a map hack? is that ok? blizzard are pretty slack in banning them too. Stop using your slippery slope argument, that seems to be all you fucking have. What if Grubby went and drove a bus full of dynamite into a school? Is that okay? No, so it's a good thing he didn't fucking do that. He's endorsing a product in a stupid way, but it's use is similar to the product which Blizzard themselves put out. To answer all your individual slipper slope bullshit, If Grubby came out with how to install and utilize a map hack, that wouldn't be okay. Good thing he didn't fucking do that. | ||
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brutality
United States167 Posts
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:27 RBKeys wrote: How does it undermine competitive gaming? Any worth while tournament is going to make some kind of ruling against something like this, and if they don't or fail to enforce their rule then it's their own fault. Competitive gaming is fine lol. Because the rules can only do so much. In a LAN setting this can be prevented, but online tournaments probably cannot. I'm not naive, I understand this isn't the first nor the last of these types of keyboard, I think even mine has macro functions; A pro-gamer didn't tell me to buy this one thought.... | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:29 Response wrote: why would anyone even use this shit, it wouldn't help at all That's an unbelievably stupid comment. Do you know what a macro is? On June 10 2011 02:32 brutality wrote: Macros have been around forever now...on all brands of keyboards including razers...dunno why this is becoming an issue now Because a progamer just promoted using them. | ||
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kYem
United Kingdom412 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:12 Freeheals wrote: Haha I love Grubby, think steelseries is really just trying to appeal to lower skill level players, not really meant to demonstrate how to cheat in tournaments and whatnot. Just demonstrating the use of their software and keyboard, harmless really. Exactly, like for people who like to play vs ai and so on.... people takes this way to serious | ||
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RBKeys
Canada196 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:29 XsebT wrote: Grubby just promoted map hacking. Now read your comment. Now back to me... get it? It's not map hacking -- it's simplifying game controls. Besides that, you should READ my comment "How does it undermine competitive gaming?" It doesn't because it's not allowed in competitive gaming. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:28 Slardar wrote: That is obvious, that is why I used the GUN ANALOGY. You can use a gun to kill humans, animals, or for self-protection. It's exactly the same thing, can you think about it for a second before you post? There is nothing wrong with the keyboard. A lot of todays keyboards do have these features in them, and if anything they might fall behind if they don't include them. However promoting them in such a way to cheat at the game, is far the same as people selling guns. Continueing with the gun analogy, it's more like advertising how to use a gun to kill a person(not really meant to be dramatic, but yer...). | ||
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kawaiiryuko
United States368 Posts
2) This is basically an APM multiplier. 3) The marine into dropship macro at the very beginning is sick! Especially with the MMA's marine-dropship-to-snipe-zerg-tech movement on the ladder now. 4) Godwin's Law has been invoked. Shouldn't someone close the thread now? | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:31 RBKeys wrote: Devalues their effort? Cheese play devalues their effort as well. You have lots of players try and play and get better and what do they face? Wall ins and all ins that screw them over anyways. Hell, maybe this will inspire people to learn better tactics since they won't need to rely on simple cheese to win. Cheesing is within the rules of the game. That doesn't devalue their effort. Cheating to beat people does, because it makes their efforts less legitimate. say alot of people start using macro's on ladder. suddenly people look at a high ladder rank and go "lol he probably just macro's, ladder is stupid blah blah" and that persons effort is devalued. On June 10 2011 02:31 Mordiford wrote: Stop using your slippery slope argument, that seems to be all you fucking have. What if Grubby went and drove a bus full of dynamite into a school? Is that okay? No, so it's a good thing he didn't fucking do that. He's endorsing a product in a stupid way, but it's use is similar to the product which Blizzard themselves put out. To answer all your individual slipper slope bullshit, If Grubby came out with how to install and utilize a map hack, that wouldn't be okay. Good thing he didn't fucking do that. he's advocating and showing HOW to cheat. What i'm saying is, this is exactly the same as endorsing a map hack. map hacking and macro keyboards both give an advantage in the game that people playing within the rules DONT have. theres no slope here. he's in the fucking hole | ||
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RBKeys
Canada196 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:33 Klipsys wrote: Because the rules can only do so much. In a LAN setting this can be prevented, but online tournaments probably cannot. I'm not naive, I understand this isn't the first nor the last of these types of keyboard, I think even mine has macro functions; A pro-gamer didn't tell me to buy this one thought.... Then maybe online tournaments need to change of be discontinued because by that logic anyone can take advantage of the system and ruin it. I don't want to start a discussion on online tournaments, but in my opinion LAN's will always be a higher calibre. | ||
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Khanz
France214 Posts
How can we be sure you get banned using this keyboard ? what a total nonsens if blizzard is selling similar stuff >.< please someone enlighten me here | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:34 RBKeys wrote: It's not map hacking -- it's simplifying game controls. Besides that, you should READ my comment "How does it undermine competitive gaming?" It doesn't because it's not allowed in competitive gaming. No it's not map hacking, and that's not my fucking point. They both represent an unfair advantage, but apparently map hacking is much worse than having a bot doing controls for you? | ||
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brutality
United States167 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:33 XsebT wrote: That's an unbelievably stupid comment. Do you know what a macro is? Because a progamer just promoted using them. Honestly who cares if grubby endorses it? He's sponsored by Steelseries and obviously got paid for that commercial. I rather doubt someone like grubby would actually use macros in game... | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:36 Kiante wrote: Cheesing is within the rules of the game. That doesn't devalue their effort. Cheating to beat people does, because it makes their efforts less legitimate. say alot of people start using macro's on ladder. suddenly people look at a high ladder rank and go "lol he probably just macro's, ladder is stupid blah blah" and that persons effort is devalued. he's advocating and showing HOW to cheat. What i'm saying is, this is exactly the same as endorsing a map hack. map hacking and macro keyboards both give an advantage in the game that people playing within the rules DONT have. theres no slope here. he's in the fucking hole Not all broken rules are equal, he's showing you how to use macros in the context of Starcraft 2 which is the major issue, but the option is available on the Blizzard keyboard made for Starcraft 2 as well. If you really think that displaying the use of macros in a video with a disclaimer such as this one had, is the equivalent of teaching people how to fucking map hack, then this isn't going anywhere. | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:23 Slardar wrote: @Klipsys - Grubby has been pro-gaming for (8?) years, I'm pretty sure he's aware of the ramifications and would never condone cheating. How can you even judge the guy who's been making his living off pro gaming for God knows how long? That's fine, I'm aware of the length of his career and no, I don't make any attempts to judge him as an individual. I can and will however, judge his actions, and by supporting this product and demonstaring it's use to me seems irresponsible | ||
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RBKeys
Canada196 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:36 Kiante wrote: Cheesing is within the rules of the game. That doesn't devalue their effort. Cheating to beat people does, because it makes their efforts less legitimate. say alot of people start using macro's on ladder. suddenly people look at a high ladder rank and go "lol he probably just macro's, ladder is stupid blah blah" and that persons effort is devalued. Not everyone is going to go out and buy this though (this is obvious from the response that people have had in this thread). I'm sure there are cheaper and easier ways of "cheating" the game as opposed to this steel series keyboard, yet how many people do you run into on the ladder that actually use them? In my experience, not very much. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
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Nick!
Scotland701 Posts
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:35 Zarahtra wrote: There is nothing wrong with the keyboard. A lot of todays keyboards do have these features in them, and if anything they might fall behind if they don't include them. However promoting them in such a way to cheat at the game, is far the same as people selling guns. Continueing with the gun analogy, it's more like advertising how to use a gun to kill a person(not really meant to be dramatic, but yer...). It would be similar to showing how to use a gun to kill deer or a target-practice dummy deer in a controlled environment. It's still has nothing to do with Grubby or SteelSeries condoning cheating because all these functions exist on keyboards sold by Blizzard themselves so if they are wrong, Blizzard is wrong. It's merely a guide, the examples look to be in a single player style. | ||
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brutality
United States167 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:40 zul wrote: During an offline event it may be easy to control all hardware used by the players, but what about online tourneys? Imagine player A using a standart keyboard and player B using a macro-keyboard. Player B clearly has an advantage, but how to check for this? In warcraft3 there were tools that showed you every action done by the players (including all pressed keys) and this could be usefull for sc2 as well. BUT what admin-team has the time to check all the replays from a 1024 or 512 player tourney?? Anyways, I am really disappointed seeing Grubby advertising this. I played at MLG dallas and they only banned a few keyboards. The razer i used has the ability for macros and saves your profiles in the keyboard. Obviously i don't use them but most good keyboards today have them. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:40 RBKeys wrote: Not everyone is going to go out and buy this though (this is obvious from the response that people have had in this thread). I'm sure there are cheaper and easier ways of "cheating" the game as opposed to this steel series keyboard, yet how many people do you run into on the ladder that actually use them? In my experience, not very much. Not everyone buying it is my point. If literally everyone was using them, then theres a level playing field. having SOME people using them creates an uneven playing field, making ladder ranking get devalued because its hard to take a competition where everyone doesn't start the game out equal seriously. | ||
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WiljushkA
Serbia1416 Posts
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RBKeys
Canada196 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:38 XsebT wrote: No it's not map hacking, and that's not my fucking point. They both represent an unfair advantage, but apparently map hacking is much worse than having a bot doing controls for you? What is your point then? You obviously made a point about saying "Grubby just promoted map hacking" and took my comment about this products affect on competitive gaming right out of context. | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
games are won and lost mainly by good decision making, possitioning, mindgames, scouting, etc. And optimal responses to all that stuff can't be made into macros. the only game breaking stuff would be like... autoinjecting, auto creep spreading, etc. And most of the times "auto", would sometimes actually hurt you. Say for example... you needed to save queen energy in one specific queen to place an important creep tumor, or to cast a transfuse that could win you the game. I wouldn't use it even if i had it for free and it was allowed by blizzard. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:44 RBKeys wrote: What is your point then? You obviously made a point about saying "Grubby just promoted map hacking" and took my comment about this products affect on competitive gaming right out of context. I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain this. I wanted you to read your own comment, but with map hacking as the issue, in which case you'd probably disagree with yourself. | ||
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MHT
Sweden1026 Posts
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:47 MHT wrote: So my keyboard uses macro keys but i dont need a third party software to use them, it seems to remember the setup by itself. Does this go against blizzards terms? The third party software is programmed into your keyboard, this doesn't make it less of a third party program all of a sudden. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:45 ElPeque.fogata wrote: this is a very complex game. i see it difficult for any of those macros to really give you any advantage past silver. games are won and lost mainly by good decision making, possitioning, mindgames, scouting, etc. And optimal responses to all that stuff can't be made into macros. the only game breaking stuff would be like... autoinjecting, auto creep spreading, etc. And most of the times "auto", would sometimes actually hurt you. Say for example... you needed to save queen energy in one specific queen to place an important creep tumor, or to cast a transfuse that could win you the game. I wouldn't use it even if i had it for free and it was allowed by blizzard. I think you fail to see the potential this type of product offers. You can do way more than what the video shows you with minimal effort. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:36 Khanz wrote: Okay after reading the entire thread, i'm wondering if you really get banned...? How can we be sure you get banned using this keyboard ? what a total nonsens if blizzard is selling similar stuff >.< please someone enlighten me here If you had really read the complete thread, you would know that Blizzard states that everything that macros keys to more than one keypress is considered cheating, and you will be banned for it if you get caught. Whether you will get caught or not obviously is not clear, but some people say some people have got banned over this. I don't work for Blizzard, and so i do not know what they can or can not detect. However, i generally prefer to simply not do stuff that will get you banned if you are caught, not because of a fear of a ban, but because i like to play a game in the fair way. If you would read that thing where Blizzard sells that macro-keyboard, you should read it careful. They never say that you can use these macros in SC2, they simply move around it and imply that you can. Though i am of the opinion that that it not a nice thing to do, and obviously their goal is to make you think that that keyboard will help you in SC2, it is not what they say. Whenever they talk about macros helping in games, they use general terms like "gaming experience". Whenever they talk about starcraft, they don't talk about macros. "Makes you improve your APM" can refer to anything like maybe having keys being easier to touch, or stating on the key what it does in the game which can help you if you are at 10 apm and need to search for the key to do something every time. Nothing is inherently wrong with macro keyboards, there seem to be completely reasonable uses for them. However, it is wrong to use these macros to get an advantage in competetive gaming. And people saying that it is not an advantage are simply wrong. Obviously macros like that "Anti-muta-thormarinebuildregroupamove" thing are stupid and useless. But you can make a simple macro that injects all of your hatcheries. You could probably even make that macro with delays that it injects you hatcheries every time the larvae pop. Or simply put a+leftclick on one other mousebutton. Bam, instantly saved time to do something else with. Sure, it is not a lot of time, but you amove stuff a lot, so it adds up. And that is just something from the top of my head. Smarter people than me could probably come up with a lot of other uses which are not insanely stupid and situational, but still give you a small advantage. Edit: Also, a lot of people seem to fail to realize what this thread is about. It is not about macro keys. Everyone knows they have been around for a long time. It is about a progamer actively promoting something that is considered cheating by both blizzard and a lot of the community. | ||
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RBKeys
Canada196 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:43 Kiante wrote: Not everyone buying it is my point. If literally everyone was using them, then theres a level playing field. having SOME people using them creates an uneven playing field, making ladder ranking get devalued because its hard to take a competition where everyone doesn't start the game out equal seriously. Again though, you have people (Pillage for example) who will exploit the system and devalue the ladder regardless. | ||
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:36 RBKeys wrote: Then maybe online tournaments need to change of be discontinued because by that logic anyone can take advantage of the system and ruin it. I don't want to start a discussion on online tournaments, but in my opinion LAN's will always be a higher calibre. So now, we need to alter the way people play and enjoy the game because of this one device? The problem isn't the keyboard it's self anyway (alot exists already) it's the endorsement of the pro-gamer If it's no big deal, and it's not targeted towards us (Esports Enthusiasts) Why use grubby at all? Why not use a no-name actor? They don't even put the disclaimer in the video, just at the end of the description. This was done intentionally, to basically imply he uses this keyboard. Why not say in the video " I don't use this keyboard, I don't think you should either except for practice and against AI" Because then they wouldn't sell any. | ||
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Samiz
Canada165 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:30 Klipsys wrote: No, I'm sorry but that's just not how it works. In most cases, yes you're correct, but in this instance, with a product that blatantly violates rules of battle.net there was a serious lapse in judgment here. His refusal to promote this wouldn't have resulted in him being dropped, that's asinine, especcialy given the factors surrounding it's use. Even with 100% blizzard support (which I doubt but still) Remember how much flack Richman (NamhciR) got for smurfing in a tournament? How is this not the same thing? Because he was paid to do it? You can blame either Grubby or SteelSeries for this. All I'm trying to say is that it's not right to blame Grubby. Being affiliated with a company does not make you responsible for what the company does or supports. Grubby has a contract with SteelSeries and judging by this post by SteelSeries on the youtube video, they clearly believe that this is legal: "As mentioned in the disclaimer above, we are of course aware that most tournaments are not allowing macro use. However, the majority of SC2 players are not playing competitively, and could benefit from using these features. Grubby is of course only demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software, as he is an active professional. Apologies for any confusion this might have caused. SteelSeries 1 day ago" It's not right to crucify Grubby for a mistake made by SteelSeries. You're right when you say that it was probably a lapse in judgment from Grubby but ultimately, it is the responsibility of SteelSeries because Grubby is just doing his job. Also, I'd really like to hear what Grubby has to say about all of this. Knowing Grubby, I wouldn't be surprised if he cuts off his affiliation with SteelSeries after realizing what's actually happened. SteelSeries messed up, not Grubby. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby. | ||
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Nick!
Scotland701 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote: This is not cheating. Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby. LOL! haters gonna hate! /thread User was warned for this post | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote: This is not cheating. Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby. This has been posted like 5 times in this thread, and you need to learn to read carefully what they actually write about that keyboard, and compare it to what you think they mean. Hint: It is not the same. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
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green.at
Austria1459 Posts
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RBKeys
Canada196 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:46 XsebT wrote: I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain this. I wanted you to read your own comment, but with map hacking as the issue, in which case you'd probably disagree with yourself. I still don't understand what you are getting at. My initial comment would be the exact same if it was maphacking. Whether it's a keyboard or a program that some dude is running to gain an edge, it's going to be ruled out of competitive play; thus, competitive gaming isn't at risk -- at least, at anymore risk than it already is. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote: This is not cheating. Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby. was said 100 times in this thread. bliz write there name on it. but ban you if you use it. You are allowed to use a macro keyboard but in the sec you activate a macro from this keyboard your cheating. this is the bliz answer. Fucked up? yes! The difference is they say you should use the macro in sc2 andthey let it look like its total fair and a good move. | ||
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PigglyWinks
364 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote: This is not cheating. Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby. So should we believe the Battle.net ToS or should we believe what some Blizzard forum people allegedly said many years ago in relation to a completely different game? Seems like quite a few people in this thread use these macros... | ||
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MaxField
United States2386 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:12 Sky0 wrote: I dont understand why blizzard supports macros in wow and not sc2 kind of wierd but in wow its part of the game not a 3rd party program if u could make macros in game with starcraft it wouldnt be illegal You do not want macros in starcraft two. If people can't afford to by keyboards that do like 10 commands at once, that is giving that person a way higher advantage on the ladder. For tournaments it could be different, but i agree that macros do not have any place in SC2, aside from just messing around with friends or something. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:56 Simberto wrote: This has been posted like 5 times in this thread, and you need to learn to read carefully what they actually write about that keyboard, and compare it to what you think they mean. Hint: It is not the same. Seriously, they sell a macro keyboard for SC2. And simply because they don't say you should use the macros themselves in SC2 makes it different? I am sorry, it does not. Blizzard has never ever cared for macroing. The only thing they banned people for, is them not sitting in front of the screen while macroing or using third party software interfering with the game data. Also http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169418900 and similar products have been out for ages too. Where is the difference? | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:57 skeldark wrote: was said 100 times in this thread. bliz write there name on it. but ban you if you use it. You are allowed to use a macro keyboard but in the sec you activate a macro from this keyboard your cheating. this is the bliz answer. Fucked up? yes! The difference is they say you should use the macro in sc2 andthey let it look like its total fair and a good move. This is not their anwer. Neither can they detect it, not have they ever banned anyone for using macro mice or keyboards. | ||
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Alver
United States177 Posts
the macros in sc2 you will be banned for are still the type that can play for hours while your not at your keyboard like farming portraits with worker rushes. since blizzard cant ban you simply on the fact that you have a macro keyboard i dont see how they will punish you at all. go to arenajunkies.com if you wanna see 500 blizzard gm screenshots of gms who sometimes dont really know what their talking about and other times 100% wrong. blizzard is a company with 10k people and gms that normally answer these questions are the lowest tier of the company and have to worry about being polite over providing good information and err on the side of 'dont do anything but play the game normal' when they arent positive how an issue works. screenshots of gm dont mean anything, you need to get a comunity manager or some other higher tier blue forum poster to write something players should take seriously. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:57 RBKeys wrote: I still don't understand what you are getting at. My initial comment would be the exact same if it was maphacking. Whether it's a keyboard or a program that some dude is running to gain an edge, it's going to be ruled out of competitive play; thus, competitive gaming isn't at risk -- at least, at anymore risk than it already is. So you wouldn't mind Grubby promoting map hacking? | ||
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote: This is not cheating. Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby. Omg this is sick ! I already did some macro for fun that i never intended to use because this was supposed to be cheat ! This is quite sick I can retest my 5sddddddddddddd instantaneous button as such with the auto-kiting macro... If this known and used in tournament, I'm curious to see what'd happen | ||
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SonKiE
United States167 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:58 PigglyWinks wrote: So should we believe the Battle.net ToS or should we believe what some Blizzard forum people allegedly said many years ago in relation to a completely different game? Seems like quite a few people in this thread use these macros... Blizzard ToS, under "stuff you should not do" "2.1 create or use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Service, any Game or any Game experience;" Seems to be exactly what those macro keyboards do. Obviously the exact interpretation of this lies with blizzard. And they have often times stated how they interprete macros. | ||
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kawaiiryuko
United States368 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:45 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Can you really use the word illegal here? afaik breaking a TOS isn't illegal. It is, under some interpretations of US law. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:03 SonKiE wrote: a sponsored player has to promote any shit product from a company that backs him. it's not grubby's fault by any means. back off him. yes macro is cheating, but do you think steel series gives a fuck about you playing fair OR if your buying their keyboards? nobody put a gun to his head. if you know its cheating, grubby probably does to. he then chose to promote cheating. how is this not his responsibility... | ||
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Catreina
United States304 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:48 Slardar wrote: I'm sorry I had to log in from work just to debate this. How is Grubby promoting cheating in SC2 here Jibba, are you serious? Not only that, this title is horrendously misleading and slanderous, Grubby doesn't deserve that. He's not TELLING you to go macro-cheat, what I got from this is this; he's condoning the use of macros and showing you how to use them. Everyone has already pointed out Razer & Blizzard sell similar type of keyboards which can do the same thing, SteelSeries is just putting that in motion here by showing you how to go about using these functions present on the keyboards. I can best relate this with an analogy like this one: You are being taught how to use a Rifle. Does that mean the teacher is condoning the murder of human beings or animals? You can stretch that border of accusation, and if anything we can agree it's controversial; therefore this title should err on the side of neutrality/caution in the matter. Obviously the intent here isn't to promote "cheating", SteelSeries isn't an ignorant company to promote something illegal. You should watch the video, and then try to see your comment here in the context of said video. He is showing you HOW TO CHEAT using the macro capabilities of the keyboard, allowing 12+ actions to be performed in a single keypress (a bannable offense in any Blizzard game, if used at any time). In other words, HE IS PROMOTING CHEATING. Please, try to watch the video and read the responses prior to posting your idiotic analogies. A better one would be "you are being taught how to kill a human with a rifle..." | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:03 Simberto wrote: Blizzard ToS, under "stuff you should not do" "2.1 create or use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Service, any Game or any Game experience;" Seems to be exactly what those macro keyboards do. Obviously the exact interpretation of this lies with blizzard. And they have often times stated how they interprete macros. Not a bot - check Not a hack - check Not a mod/software modifying the service, game or game experience - check A mouse/keyboard is not targeted by this and I don't know why so many people think it is. Blizzard has never cared for your input devices. | ||
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PigglyWinks
364 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:05 grs wrote: Not a bot - check Not a hack - check Not a mod/software modifying the service, game or game experience - check A mouse/keyboard is not targeted by this and I don't know why so many people think it is. Blizzard has never cared for your input devices. It is most certainly a bot. | ||
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Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:05 grs wrote: Not a bot - check Not a hack - check Not a mod/software modifying the service, game or game experience - check A mouse/keyboard is not targeted by this and I don't know why so many people think it is. Blizzard has never cared for your input devices. can you not read? god you're silly | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
I guess SteelSeries could add a disclaimer if it's actually illegal, but to put this on Grubby is very pointless. He's a player of integrity, and would never promote cheating knowingly. | ||
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rfoster
United States1005 Posts
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
It is not. Never has Blizzard regarded using macro input devives botting. Please give me a single example. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
EDIT: So it's apparantly not bannable.. oh my god that's even worse... yay! Let's make the game easier for retards... | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
It's not a capital offense or anything but I lost some of the respect I had for him (lol who cares). | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:08 grs wrote: It is not. Never has Blizzard regarded using macro input devives botting. Please give me a single example. | ||
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Catreina
United States304 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:02 Alver wrote: the macros you will be banned for in wow are the type that can play for hours while your not at your keyboard like grinding monsters for gold. macros that happen in the course of play are allowed. blizzard catches these people by whispering them and seeing if they wisper back, if you can reply to the gm, you cant be punished regardless of whether or not your using 3rd party macros, they must catch you in the act of botting without being present at the keyboard. the macros in sc2 you will be banned for are still the type that can play for hours while your not at your keyboard like farming portraits with worker rushes. since blizzard cant ban you simply on the fact that you have a macro keyboard i dont see how they will punish you at all. go to arenajunkies.com if you wanna see 500 blizzard gm screenshots of gms who sometimes dont really know what their talking about and other times 100% wrong. blizzard is a company with 10k people and gms that normally answer these questions are the lowest tier of the company and have to worry about being polite over providing good information and err on the side of 'dont do anything but play the game normal' when they arent positive how an issue works. screenshots of gm dont mean anything, you need to get a comunity manager or some other higher tier blue forum poster to write something players should take seriously. The macros you can and will be banned for in wow are any that allow you to perform 2 or more actions that require a keypress with a single keypress. Being at your keyboard is never a requirement (and neither is being afk). Blizzard has a program called Warden that helps catch these events, you might have heard of it. It is not a "whisper the player and see if they respond" test. You are pushing invalid and totally incorrect information here. Please stop spreading lies and misinformation. That said, you cannot be punished for using any keyboard. You can and WILL be punished for using macro capabilities on any keyboard, mouse, software, or even hardware. It is simple, do not use macros or lose your account. That is also why there is such outrage at the video ad - Grubby is promoting the use of macros to tie multiple keypress actions into a single keypress. | ||
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:05 grs wrote: Not a bot - check Not a hack - check Not a mod/software modifying the service, game or game experience - check A mouse/keyboard is not targeted by this and I don't know why so many people think it is. Blizzard has never cared for your input devices. If there isn't an automation software (aka bot) inside the keyboard, please enlighten us on this alien technology. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:05 grs wrote: Not a bot - check Not a hack - check Not a mod/software modifying the service, game or game experience - check A mouse/keyboard is not targeted by this and I don't know why so many people think it is. Blizzard has never cared for your input devices. "automation software". It is a software that automates stuff. Whether you would call this a bot or not is not really important, because the "bots" in the brackets is just to provide an example for an automation software. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:05 grs wrote: Not a bot - check Not a hack - check Not a mod/software modifying the service, game or game experience - check A mouse/keyboard is not targeted by this and I don't know why so many people think it is. Blizzard has never cared for your input devices. Oh really, something that does 5 things for you at a push of a button is not a bot? It does not modify playing experience? I think not... | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
As someone else wrote above: Blizzard customer service/GMs are the lowest tier in their foodchain. The chance to get one to even answer a simple question correct is close to zero. Btw, there is no reason to call me stupid, only because I have a different opinion! | ||
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rfoster
United States1005 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:02 XsebT wrote: So you wouldn't mind Grubby promoting map hacking? What he was saying in the first place is that grubby is hired to say lines for money. Stop putting words in his mouth | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games. Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility. Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games. Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use. Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned. Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable. Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:05 grs wrote: Not a bot - check Not a hack - check Not a mod/software modifying the service, game or game experience - check A mouse/keyboard is not targeted by this and I don't know why so many people think it is. Blizzard has never cared for your input devices. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1302702180#15 actually they do. | ||
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brutality
United States167 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:05 Catreina wrote: You should watch the video, and then try to see your comment here in the context of said video. He is showing you HOW TO CHEAT using the macro capabilities of the keyboard, allowing 12+ actions to be performed in a single keypress (a bannable offense in any Blizzard game, if used at any time). In other words, HE IS PROMOTING CHEATING. Please, try to watch the video and read the responses prior to posting your idiotic analogies. A better one would be "you are being taught how to kill a human with a rifle..." seriously calm down. it's just a commercial. this thread is full of people making mountains out of molehills. macros have been around forever and not a new issue. grubby got paid to do that and i would too. do i use macros? hell no lol why would I? but even blizzard's keyboards have macros in them... | ||
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ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
blame steelseries. | ||
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karlmengsk
Canada230 Posts
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Catreina
United States304 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:08 grs wrote: It is not. Never has Blizzard regarded using macro input devives botting. Please give me a single example. Bot - automated actions Macro - automated actions from multiple keypress events performed after a single keypress event. See the similarity? Know that people get banned for using AutoIt scripts in Diablo 2/WoW/Warcraft3? Know that people get banned for using macros in those games? Know that the same can and does happen in SC2? Macros automate events, a bot automates events. Both are bannable, both are detectable, and both have resulted in people losing their accounts. Please read and comprehend a bit better. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:59 grs wrote: Seriously, they sell a macro keyboard for SC2. And simply because they don't say you should use the macros themselves in SC2 makes it different? I am sorry, it does not. Blizzard has never ever cared for macroing. The only thing they banned people for, is them not sitting in front of the screen while macroing or using third party software interfering with the game data. Also http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169418900 and similar products have been out for ages too. Where is the difference? the problem isn`t the actual product, but the advertisment by one of the biggest Names in eSport. He promotes hardware, that gives you a technical advantage and therefore the fair-game aspect is gone. Grubby stands for a hardworking competitor who won his matches through hard work and talent. With this Advertisement he forces the impression that he uses this "make-stuff-easier-for-me" equipment to beat other players and this sucks. Personally I dont believe he uses macros, but some of his Fans will think so and they will think it is ok to use it to win games. Which is not. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:12 karlmengsk wrote: he's not necessarily promoting them for use in Starcraft. just because he's a Starcraft pro, there are other games and uses for computer y'know Did you watch the video lol? He explained how to use it in Starcraft 2. | ||
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
Blizzard doesn't really have an official position about keyboard macros. As they are selling some, but in the other hand, people using multiple actions (5+) on one sigle button could be banned. But this is was on the wow forum. So it's curently impossible to know what is legal or not in SC2. Some rules would tell you yes, other will tell you no. Blizzard need to have a official post about this situation, as nobody really know what is admited and at wich scale. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote: Yea...right:Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games. "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)." - http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 | ||
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Dalguno
United States2446 Posts
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RBKeys
Canada196 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:02 XsebT wrote: So you wouldn't mind Grubby promoting map hacking? If we hung off of every word and/or action a progamer said/did then I'm sure the game would be much more "Idra-centric." What Grubby did with endorsing this product holds no credence to the argument I was making. If he wants to endorse something, that's fine, his endorsement has no broad impact (if any) on any governing body in competitive starcraft 2 (I.e., those who run the league). Please keep things in context: "undermining competitive gaming" is the topic I was addressing. | ||
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PigglyWinks
364 Posts
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brutality
United States167 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:13 zul wrote: the problem isn`t the actual product, but the advertisment by one of the biggest Names in eSport. He promotes hardware, that gives you a technical advantage and therefore the fair-game aspect is gone. Grubby stands for a hardworking competitor who won his matches through hard work and talent. With Advertisement he forces the impression that he uses this "make-stuff-easier-for-me" equipment to beat other players and this sucks. Personally I dont believe he uses macros, but some of his Fans will think so and they will think it is ok to use it to win games. Which is not. you obviously don't watch commercials on TV in the U.S. Plenty of big names are sponsored by the most ridiculous stuff. Doesn't mean they actually use them...I don't think Danica Patrick actually uses godaddy | ||
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kingprawn
Sweden49 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Hypertension
United States802 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote: I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people. Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games. Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility. Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games. Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use. Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned. Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable. Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:13 zul wrote: the problem isn`t the actual product, but the advertisment by one of the biggest Names in eSport. He promotes hardware, that gives you a technical advantage and therefore the fair-game aspect is gone. Grubby stands for a hardworking competitor who won his matches through hard work and talent. With this Advertisement he forces the impression that he uses this "make-stuff-easier-for-me" equipment to beat other players and this sucks. Personally I dont believe he uses macros, but some of his Fans will think so and they will think it is ok to use it to win games. Which is not. I fully agree he should not have done the commercial neither should Steelseries have. It sheds a bad light on both. I disagree with Blizzard promoting basically the same device wo saying "use macros this keyboard device in SC2" is any better. | ||
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Furycrab
Canada456 Posts
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Dalguno
United States2446 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote: Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby. Can we get a source? | ||
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:19 Furycrab wrote: The keyboard doesn't do anything you couldn't do on your own. Heck most of them you can do as easily and as fast and or you could rebind your current keyboard to do roughly the same. produce 45 zerglings in 1ms and I will listen. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
http://steelseries.com/products/games/starcraft-ii/steelseries-zboard-limited-edition-keyset-starcraft-ii (Praised as a licensed Blizzard Product) http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 and the 15 times linked site | ||
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Xercen
United Kingdom375 Posts
i hope grubby doesn't take any loss in reputation because u have to blame the company using this tactic to sell keyboards. | ||
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:07 Tump wrote: I really don't see how this is an issue. The keyboard is meant for casual players. Right! I forgot how much money the casual players spends on peripherals. Obviously by sponsoring an E-sports team, and selling luxury computer goods appeals to casual gaming. Get serious, this isn't madcats selling a rapid trigger. | ||
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:19 Furycrab wrote: The keyboard doesn't do anything you couldn't do on your own. Heck most of them you can do as easily and as fast and or you could rebind your current keyboard to do roughly the same. Really? There's no way to do in 1MS what this (or any macro keyboard) can accomplish | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote: Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby. Then Blizzard is at fault as well. That doesn't detract from the fact that Blizzard has been known to ban for macro keys and that SS shouldn't promote them in a competitive game. Even at the bronze level, SC2 is a player versus player competition. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:15 VIB wrote: Yea...right: "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)." - http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 Now: What you read is, that it makes you better by using macros that press multiple keys at once, and help you win at SC2. But that is not what is actually written there. What is written there are the following statements: 1. The keyboard has one-touch macros and full customizattion. This will make your gaming better. (Note: Not necessarily in SC2, could also be for example in Baldus Gate, or any other game) 2. The Keyboard is good for SC2 Players who want to immerse themselves into the game and improve their performance and APM. (Not: This keyboard improves your performance and APM in SC2) This means that there is not necessarily any improvement coming from the keyboard, just that it is a good thing if you are the type of person that wants to improve themselves. Basically, a competative gamer. As with any statement by lawyers or companies, one needs to be extremely careful to actually read what they write, and not what one thinks they mean. | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. | ||
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Elairec
United States410 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote: Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby. Whether or not their product description states this, it does not change the fac tthat it is considered botting to use macros to automate actions for you. Their job is to sell the product they are displaying, why not include this into the description of the keyboard so that it will increase sales? The only sources you should be concerned with is the official ToS. | ||
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Geordie
United Kingdom653 Posts
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
I have no idea how they could interpret Blizzard's ToS as saying "you can use use this macro software for ladder and custom games, but you can't for tournaments". Its clear that the use of this software will give you an unfair macro advantage over your opponent. The keyboard itself is not a problem, but the software is. I'm also shocked at all the people saying "blame steelseries, not Grubby". Grubby is a highly intelligent guy. He should know better than to publically support cheating in the game he plays professionally. This video will do nothing but hurt his credibility. I've been on the fence about Grubby in SC2, but this turned me into an antifan. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:16 RBKeys wrote: If we hung off of every word and/or action a progamer said/did then I'm sure the game would be much more "Idra-centric." What Grubby did with endorsing this product holds no credence to the argument I was making. If he wants to endorse something, that's fine, his endorsement has no broad impact (if any) on any governing body in competitive starcraft 2 (I.e., those who run the league). Please keep things in context: "undermining competitive gaming" is the topic I was addressing. This is the comment you initially replied to: On June 10 2011 02:18 Klipsys wrote: Are you serious? He's a PRO GAMER, advertising a product that UNDERMINES COMPETITIVE GAMING! And this whole topic happened because Grubby promoted the usage of macros ingame. I don't feel like I'm the one avoiding the context. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:27 Jibba wrote: Number of people banned for macros like the ones grubby show in the video, on all history of blizzard:Then Blizzard is at fault as well. That doesn't detract from the fact that Blizzard has been known to ban for macro keys and that SS shouldn't promote them in a competitive game. Even at the bronze level, SC2 is a player versus player competition. zero They cannot detect short macros like this on their end. They'll only ban you for long term bots that rolls for hours. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote: ... BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway. you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. | ||
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legaton
France1763 Posts
Rainbow in the NASL | ||
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LeBroom
Germany67 Posts
How is using simple keyboard macros cheating? People even got banned in WoW for that. In WoW you could just Macro a 2min Fight... and go AFK, it was like a Bot! | ||
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nehcnhoj
United States213 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote: I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people. Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games. Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility. Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games. Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use. Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned. Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable. Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. I've tried to read through the majority of the thread, but it's really been growing at an unreadable rate. I agree that what Grubby has done here is on a whole a mistake on his part. However, I disagree with your stand. You seem to imply that Grubby's main intention here is not selling the keyboard, but selling the the features of the keyboard being used in a game that is directly in violation of its ToS. I find this bordering ridiculous. Grubby has been a professional in E-sports at the highest level for years. Here he is promoting for his sponsor, one of the biggest gaming apparel companies, for one of the main features in their products for arguably the most popular PC game around. You can either choose to believe, his key intention here is promoting the exact usage of the keyboard which is illegal, or that he is "just selling the keyboard." I personally feel, Grubby is just selling the keyboard. Regardless, what I'd really like to know is, since a TL Mod has a negative stand with regards to Grubby's role in this matter, does this in anyway affect his "featured" status on TL streams? He has one of the most entertaining streams, I wouldn't want to miss out just because of this. | ||
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Nick!
Scotland701 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:36 legaton wrote: Hahaha, at least we know now how he did to beat+ Show Spoiler + Rainbow in the NASL In the NASL* | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:28 Simberto wrote: You're right. When they say "keyboard" they actually my mean "enchanted poney". When they say "increase your APM" they actually mean "fly through a rainbow". It all depends on how you interpret what they actually said. + Show Spoiler + On June 10 2011 03:15 VIB wrote: Yea...right: "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)." - http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142 Now: What you read is, that it makes you better by using macros that press multiple keys at once, and help you win at SC2. But that is not what is actually written there. What is written there are the following statements: 1. The keyboard has one-touch macros and full customizattion. This will make your gaming better. (Note: Not necessarily in SC2, could also be for example in Baldus Gate, or any other game) 2. The Keyboard is good for SC2 Players who want to immerse themselves into the game and improve their performance and APM. (Not: This keyboard improves your performance and APM in SC2) This means that there is not necessarily any improvement coming from the keyboard, just that it is a good thing if you are the type of person that wants to improve themselves. Basically, a competative gamer. As with any statement by lawyers or companies, one needs to be extremely careful to actually read what they write, and not what one thinks they mean. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:34 VIB wrote: Number of people banned for macros like the ones grubby show in the video, on all history of blizzard: zero They cannot detect short macros like this on their end. They'll only ban you for long term bots that rolls for hours. That's just not true. Blizzard has done several banwaves during WoW where people using G15 and Nostromo macros were banned, and they did it in BW and they've done it in SC2. Their official stance is that it's a bannable offense, regardless of whether it's 100% automated or 5% automated. | ||
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote: you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:35 zul wrote: you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game. pressing down Z is quite easy, but imagine it dumbing down a cpl of more complex features like: putting groups 1 through 4 in group 8, then select group 8 thats : 1 shift 8 2 shift 8 3 shift 8 4 shift 8 8 This shit happens in 1 milisecond, and this is just a small part. Imagine 1 milisecond reproduction of 6 marines, 3 marauders, 2 thors , 2 medivacs and 2 vikings. an this can go on and on ............ saying macro keyboard doesn't help you is retarded | ||
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Elairec
United States410 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote: Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. | ||
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lindn
Sweden833 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:36 legaton wrote: Hahaha, at least we know now how he did to beat+ Show Spoiler + Rainbow in the NASL yeah cause grubby uses the shift. oh wait no he doesn't | ||
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HeLToFF
Sweden11 Posts
They could start like a Blizzard-home-raid-squad that comes home to your house and inspect all of your computer gear i guess ^___^ | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:11 Baarn wrote: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1302702180#15 actually they do. as nobody seems to read what Blizzard Support wrote there: From what I understand, Overpowered, you simply want to move one in-game function (= selecting a specific unit in a group) from its default key (= backspace) to another of your choosing, which you have available in your keyboard? Correct me if I misunderstood you, of course. Were you to program multiple functions onto that same key, an execute them all with just one keypress, that wouldn't be ok. I don't see a problem with what you propose however; you're basically just changing a keybinding. | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:15 T3tra wrote: A macro allows you to do two (or more) actions in the time that it takes to normally do one. It's an unfair advantage. Now obviously this isn't going to be game breaking at lower levels, but when you're masters league or higher, where the speed at which you do your actions really makes or breaks a game, it's not fair. to elaborate with similar type situation, look at WoW macro freedom.. even the most vegetable of a player can set up spacebar to cycle through all the best 'motions' in an attempt to feign actually having knowledge and ability of the game principles, or simply to overpower ppl who DO understand the principles and mechanics. The only limit to how many things they can get one button to do, is in the 255 char text limit. Granted, any high level player can work around these gimmicks, which is all they are, since there is no understanding behind it, it still begs the question as to why any players who appreciate any game would want to replace understanding and practice of execution with a program or shortcut keys that do it for you. the bottom line is, these tools are crutches, and if you learn what they are trying to get out of you, gameplay wise(dem principlez), you wont ever need them(the crutches, not dem principlez). EDIT: sry for the massive change of direction i just wantd to spout about whether or not macro usage should be in the sc2 community -- personally i thnk grubby just making money, steelseries shoulda been more on top o things, and no one should bother violating the ToS | ||
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Leeto
United States1320 Posts
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:44 JFCycWalker wrote: It's applied to more than just producing lings as Grubby showed. You can create two full medivacs ready for a drop in the press of a key. Instead of cycling through different types of buildings to create marines and medivacs, just hit that one button and divert your attention elsewhere. Sure it isn't much time overall, but it just ruins it for those that do it legitimately. How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. | ||
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:39 Egyptian_Head wrote: Congrats you have saved 10 seconds the entire game. Not that useful and your opponent doing this is still not affecting your play experience. Please, man, please. Stop talking about what you don't know and never tried. Imagine there is a huge battle, with lots of actions, your money is rising because you're too busy to kite with your army. Losing 1ms to spend those 1k versus spending 3 seconds is HUGE. But maybe you're at a level where you can afford to lose SECONDS in tough fights. EDIT : I've tried Macros during Beta for curiousity. I know what I'm talking about. I immediatly stopped after 1 day of laddering as unfair this shit was | ||
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intoyourrainbOW
United States168 Posts
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Ludwigvan
Germany2371 Posts
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tuho133
120 Posts
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:36 legaton wrote: Hahaha, at least we know now how he did to beat+ Show Spoiler + Rainbow in the NASL Haha, that made my day. . It's mind boggling how people don't think that multiple actions done in one key press is not cheating (Pressing 6 to create two medivacs autoloaded with marines, yeah ok). Even though Blizzard has always been god awful and slow and banning cheaters, using macros that alter gameplay still violates the ToS. Grubby should just man up and apologize to the community. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:38 Jibba wrote: No, not for the kinds of macros grubby is showing. People have only been banned for making macros that run for a long time repeatedly. Grubby isn't showing any of those.That's just not true. Blizzard has done several banwaves during WoW where people using G15 and Nostromo macros were banned, and they did it in BW and they've done it in SC2. Their official stance is that it's a bannable offense, regardless of whether it's 100% automated or 5% automated. Look, this is very simple. On a company as big as Blizzard, it's very common that the right hand doesn't know that what the left hand is doing. Blizzard executives wants to make deals with keyboard manufacturers because they make money from it. Regardless of what the software does, whatever the selling point is, they'll promote it. But GMs have simple orders to ban botters and have no idea what executives think. So they'll just try to ban whatever they can detect. Tho simple macros like the ones grubby showed, won't be detected and won't get banned. If you use it to make something to complex tho, you might get banned. Knowing this. Steelseries has the support from Blizzard's sales people to sell their keyboard. So they advertise it's selling points. They are careful to not go too deep into stuff that might get you in trouble. So they only show simple macros which won't get you banned from bnet. Blizzard, Steelseries and Grubby are all partly guilty for random people you encounter in the ladder using macros to beat you. Both Steelseries and Grubby are only doing this because they know they're backed by blizzard. Blizzard started all this. And people using those simple macros won't get banned. | ||
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Elairec
United States410 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:50 Egyptian_Head wrote: How does it ruin it for you? Your opponent playing better for whatever reason is not ruining anything for you. Because of how the ladder works you will not face him unless battle net thinks you are evenish in skill. So you wouldn't even be facing him unless you had a decent chance to win. Its not like map hacks where he can see what you are doing. It makes it easier for him and doesn't change a thing for your play experience, only his is changed. Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. | ||
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AutomatonOmega
United States706 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote: How is using simple keyboard macros cheating? To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. Grubby is not the one to blame here. It's cheating because for it to be 'safe' and 'fine' everyone has to do it. Judging by Grubby Grubby's performance in the NASL, it's not like his macros helped him gain 'an advantage', but what if he was undefeated? This would set a bad precedent. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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SlySly
Germany62 Posts
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Catreina
United States304 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:58 VIB wrote: No, not for the kinds of macros grubby is showing. People have only been banned for making macros that run for a long time repeatedly. Grubby isn't showing any of those. Look, this is very simple. On a company as big as Blizzard, it's very common that the right hand doesn't know that what the left hand is doing. Blizzard executives wants to make deals with keyboard manufacturers because they make money from it. Regardless of what the software does, whatever the selling point is, they'll promote it. But GMs have simple orders to ban botters and have no idea what executives think. So they'll just try to ban whatever they can detect. Tho simple macros like the ones grubby showed, won't be detected and won't get banned. If you use it to make something to complex tho, you might get banned. Knowing this. Steelseries has the support from Blizzard's sales people to sell their keyboard. So they advertise it's selling points. They are careful to not go too deep into stuff that might get you in trouble. So they only show simple macros which won't get you banned from bnet. Blizzard, Steelseries and Grubby are all partly guilty for random people you encounter in the ladder using macros to beat you. Both Steelseries and Grubby are only doing this because they know they're backed by blizzard. Blizzard started all this. And people using those simple macros won't get banned. And again you are wrong. If you macro ANYTHING - INCLUDING CHAT - you can be detected, found, and banned. AND YOU WILL BE. People have lost their accounts for even two keypress actions mapped to a single key. Please, PLEASE, STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION! You can and will be banned for macro use. Period. There is no "time limit" on the use of them. The rest of your post is pretty spot on however, except for your "wont be banned" comment at the end of your first actual paragraph. | ||
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
It's not like "Uh oh mutalisks are attacking, I sure could use a bunch of marines, medivacs and thors attack-moved to a specific location in 2 minutes!" will win any games, heh. Just felt bad for Grubby that he was the front-man for something that's kind of un-helpful and provokes PR ire. | ||
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Marcus420
Canada1923 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:00 AutomatonOmega wrote: It's cheating because for it to be 'safe' and 'fine' everyone has to do it. Judging by Grubby Grubby's performance in the NASL, it's not like his macros helped him gain 'an advantage', but what if he was undefeated? This would set a bad precedent. Using macro's in tourny's is not allowed. Grubby knows this and so does SS. think before posting. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:47 Vulcano wrote: to elaborate with similar type situation, look at WoW macro freedom.. even the most vegetable of a player can set up spacebar to cycle through all the best 'motions' in an attempt to feign actually having knowledge and ability of the game principles, or simply to overpower ppl who DO understand the principles and mechanics. The only limit to how many things they can get one button to do, is in the 255 char text limit. Granted, any high level player can work around these gimmicks, which is all they are, since there is no understanding behind it, it still begs the question as to why any players who appreciate any game would want to replace understanding and practice of execution with a program or shortcut keys that do it for you. the bottom line is, these tools are crutches, and if you learn what they are trying to get out of you, gameplay wise(dem principlez), you wont ever need them(the crutches, not dem principlez). WoW Macros don't work that way. They have for a very short amount of time about 5 years ago, than blizzard realized that that sucked and changed it. Also, you fail to realize that macro keys make certain actions faster than humanly possible. That is a problem, since faster is generally better. And doing less with the same amount of input is the same as faster. Not related to you, but the thread of being caught is even less important. Just because you may not be caught doing something does not make it ok. What should make you not do stuff is not the thread of punishment, but the actual moral reason that that punishment is threatened for. However, for many people stuff seems to only be wrong if you are punished if you do it. I find this attitude disgusting. Honestly, noone in this thread knows exactly whether or not Blizzard has, or will, ban people for using macros. Strangely enough, the same could be said about anything else, since as far as i know, Blizzard does not release any statements regarding how many people they have banned for which specific reason. So all you have are statements from people who got banned, and they usually are not a very good source, since they always want to make it looks like evil Blizzard hunts the pure small gamer just for fun. All the arguments that the advantage of using keyboard macros is small, does not matter, or does not exist, also miss the point. Just because you can not find a way to profit from this, or there might be dangers by misusing stuff, does not mean that nobody will find a way to gain an advantage from it. It does not matter if it is a large or a small advantage, because it is an unfair advantage. I think everyone would agree that you should not have any advantage in a competetive game by using outside stuff that is not available to everyone, or to force everyone who wants to have that advantage to spend additional money on it. Gaming should be about the game, not about the gear and software the gamer can gather. Thus, in my opinion, every self-respecting gamer should avoid everything that feels like cheating, even if you think you will not get caught. Because what should stop you from cheating is not the thread of punishment, but your own self-respect. | ||
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Sneakyz
Sweden2361 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:58 VIB wrote: No, not for the kinds of macros grubby is showing. People have only been banned for making macros that run for a long time repeatedly. Grubby isn't showing any of those. Look, this is very simple. On a company as big as Blizzard, it's very common that the right hand doesn't know that what the left hand is doing. Blizzard executives wants to make deals with keyboard manufacturers because they make money from it. Regardless of what the software does, whatever the selling point is, they'll promote it. But GMs have simple orders to ban botters and have no idea what executives think. So they'll just try to ban whatever they can detect. Tho simple macros like the ones grubby showed, won't be detected and won't get banned. If you use it to make something to complex tho, you might get banned. Knowing this. Steelseries has the support from Blizzard's sales people to sell their keyboard. So they advertise it's selling points. They are careful to not go too deep into stuff that might get you in trouble. So they only show simple macros which won't get you banned from bnet. Blizzard, Steelseries and Grubby are all partly guilty for random people you encounter in the ladder using macros to beat you. Both Steelseries and Grubby are only doing this because they know they're backed by blizzard. Blizzard started all this. And people using those simple macros won't get banned. I am pretty sure people have been banned for using macros like these in WoW. | ||
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ki11z0ne
United States427 Posts
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:08 ki11z0ne wrote: so wait if i bring this keyboard to a tourney i will not be able to play?? You can play with it, you just cant use its macro features. | ||
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:59 JFCycWalker wrote: Take two players of equal skill in the finals of a tournament. Both multitask pretty much on par with each other. One player gets to use macros to create more units at the click of ONE button, whereas the other player has to cycle his production facilities. As Diks pointed out, one millisecond action in a tough battle vs multiple seconds is a clear advantage for the player using macros. He is allowed to maintain more focus on microing his units as opposed to splitting attention. No, it does not change the second player's game experience, but it is also allowing the first person to basically get a 10 foot advantage in a race. From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. | ||
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Pochtli
Finland690 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:08 ki11z0ne wrote: so wait if i bring this keyboard to a tourney i will not be able to play?? You can use keyboards with macroing capabilities as long as you don't use macros. However macros that only do one function (as in are similar to you pressing one button) are acceptable. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44708 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:08 ki11z0ne wrote: so wait if i bring this keyboard to a tourney i will not be able to play?? If you're actually using the macros, correct. Using macros is illegal. Using macros on the ladder is bannable, because it's cheating. Rebinding a keyboard so that each button press corresponds to exactly one other button press is fine. But hotkeying one button to do multiple functions is not. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote: From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder? | ||
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
No one will cart you off to jail. Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. | ||
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:11 Simberto wrote: Are you seriously arguing that you don't care whether people cheat on ladder? Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I? | ||
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Elairec
United States410 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote: From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. My issue is not with Grubby - he does what he has to in order to make his money, I can understand. So would you be in agreeance that the use of macros in any kind of ladder game and obviously tournament play would be unfair; being my point from the beginning. | ||
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
I don't want to blame Grubby here, as he's likely just doing what his sponsor is asking. SS should know these macros are no allowed in SC2, and should not be "hyping" them for the game. Their keyboard has plenty of other features that it can be sold on apart from this one. Really we should be letting SteelSeries know that they have openly advocated breaking Blizzards ToS in this ad, and also damaged Grubby reputation by doing so. Its the old sales team doing whatever it wants to push boxes, and the tech-team in the background scrambling to salvage their promises. (ya, I'm jaded towards sales people....) | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44708 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:12 kedinik wrote: It, uh, isn't against the law to use macros. No one will cart you off to jail. Against Blizzard's ToS maybe, but that isn't the same as illegal. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. | ||
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
macro keys are not similar to boting or map hacking, people are just raging thinking the player who uses them will get an unfair advantage but if you think about it there are just not so many things you can do without actually touching the mouse. sure you can make units from barracks and factories but that's it.... you can't load marines into medivacs solely on macro keys like grubby presents it because some pointing action needs to occur and usually the macro is not very reliable, the delay in-game (lag, latency) can cause failure to complete the action. i have tried a macro function in sc2 for lost viking, i replaced the spacebar key with 10 spacebar pushes combined with 50 ms delay in between. i tought it would max out the firing rate of the viking but actually it's a major fail, tried several delays between hits and i really just had to go back to button mashing because the macro wasn't any good at all | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that. Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. | ||
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Elairec
United States410 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:13 Egyptian_Head wrote: Not if it doesn't affect my playing experience. Why would I? You are openly admitting that any unfair and cheating play does not matter as long as the game plays the same for you. As long as your game does what you want it to do when you tell it, you don't care if your opponent map hacks. I am failing to see the logic, but I will leave you to your delusions. | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote: From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. so there is no competitive nature to SC2 outside of tournies(nothing on the line)? its a highly competitive game and any kind of ranked multiplayer match, for the average gamer, IS the entirety of his competitive starcraft 2 experience.. which allegedly starts on an even playing field. if the controls are simplified for one but not for all, thats not even. and i dont see how simplified controls can not affect your enemies gameplay.. A = 1 command A = 10 commands A = A ? EDIT: p.s. this forum is just incredible... p.s.s. thats right next post.. it IS in the ToS.. end of story huh? (should be) | ||
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
It doesn't matter if you personally care or not, its up to Blizzard, and its in their ToS. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:16 Manimal_pro wrote: They DO can detect keyboard macros regardless where it's programmed. The server will simple notice "hey, he did 3042 commands in 10ms, that must be cheating". They won't really care where did all those commands come from. They might not detect it if you do something simple that can be confused with something a human could do. Or confused with network/cpu lag. But if you use complex macros over and over again, they can detect it.the use a macro key is just not detectable by the game because the inputs come straight from the keyboard driver through the game. | ||
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Aggnog
Bulgaria77 Posts
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Pochtli
Finland690 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:21 VIB wrote: They DO can detect keyboard macros regardless where it's programmed. The server will simple notice "hey, he did 3042 commands in 10ms, that must be cheating". They won't really care where did all those commands come from. They might not detect it if you do something simple that can be confused with something a human could do. Or confused with network/cpu lag. But if you use complex macros over and over again, they can detect it. You can macro a small delay between commands, which would make it a little bit less effective but still an advantage. | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:22 Aggnog wrote: I don't really want to get in on this discussion much, but next time read the disclaimer before making threads like this. Accusing someone like grubby screams want for attention, really. dont pay an actor to promote abortion and expect those ranting about the sanctity of life to not bash him with picket signs | ||
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:17 JFCycWalker wrote: You are openly admitting that any unfair and cheating play does not matter as long as the game plays the same for you. As long as your game does what you want it to do when you tell it, you don't care if your opponent map hacks. I am failing to see the logic, but I will leave you to your delusions. Map hacks do change my game experience. I cannot hide anything, drops are pointless etc. It just ruins my fun. Macro keyboard does not ruin my fun. | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:26 Egyptian_Head wrote: Map hacks do change my game experience. I cannot hide anything, drops are pointless etc. It just ruins my fun. Macro keyboard does not ruin my fun. until u r unfairly PWNT'd in a macro fight against a lesser player? sounds fun | ||
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:22 Aggnog wrote: I don't really want to get in on this discussion, but really this thread wouldn't even exist if the disclaimer was read. As for steelseries, well razer has the same macro functions on the black widow anyway. All in all it comes down to the end-user and complaining about promotions of their own gear isn't really going to change that. The disclaimer is wrong. It implies that the rule against using macros is part of tournament rules and that casual players are allowed to use them. This is wrong. If it were true, no one would have any problem with this ad, whether the disclaimer was there or not. | ||
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:26 Egyptian_Head wrote: Map hacks do change my game experience. I cannot hide anything, drops are pointless etc. It just ruins my fun. Macro keyboard does not ruin my fun. Map hacks automate scounting, no? Keyboard macros automate APM, no? Both would ruin my fun. But I don't see how this is an argument of "fun" but rather an argument regarding a large esports sponsor openly condoning actions against Blizzards ToS. That's bad IMO. | ||
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Not everything that's illegal means "will cart you off to jail". Illegal also means "against the rules". Using macros is illegal. An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. | ||
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote: An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. Yea, lets turn this into a argument of what Illegal means... –adjective 1. forbidden by law or statute. 2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass. Well that was quick. | ||
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:22 Aggnog wrote: I don't really want to get in on this discussion, but really this thread wouldn't even exist if the disclaimer was read. As for steelseries, well razer has the same macro functions on the black widow anyway. All in all it comes down to the end-user and complaining about promotions of their own gear isn't really going to change that. Yes, the Black Widow have macro keys but I don't believe Razer have made an advertising video with one of their sponsored Starcraft players showing the viewers how to use macro keys in the game when it is against the rules of the game. Thats why this thing is so blown up againsts SteelSeries and Grubby. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote: An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. "Laws" or "Illegal" are not words specific to United State's Constitution and law. | ||
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Deleted User 55994
949 Posts
if u think he actually uses it himself then lol | ||
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:32 deadjon wrote: Yea, lets turn this into a argument of what Illegal means... –adjective 1. forbidden by law or statute. 2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass. Well that was quick. I guess you can be a pedant and use the definition that no one actually uses in modern life, and which does not even exist in Merriam-Webster or similarly reputable dictionaries. If that's really what you want to do, go for it. Still think the larger issue is that all of these "cheating macros" are actually just kind of useless compared to being a halfway decent gold level player. | ||
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ePAttack
United States112 Posts
Reguardless of this whole shinanigans, If they didn't advertise this keyboard using SC2 (Because of it being illegal) I would have thought about buying it. | ||
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:27 Vulcano wrote: Until you are unfairly "PWNT'd" in a macro fight against a lesser player? sounds fun Losing is part of the game. I don't see a problem, whether the person is better or worse than me really makes no difference to my enjoyment of the match. Why would it? Ladder means we will be similar in skill (Him with keyboard, me without) regardless so why would his skill without the keyboard matter? | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:37 kedinik wrote: I guess you can be a pedant and use the definition that no one actually uses in modern life, and which does not even exist in Mirriam-Webster or similarly reputable dictionaries. If that's really what you want to do, go for it. Still think the larger issue is that all of these "cheating macros" are actually just kind of useless compared to being a halfway decent gold level player. I can't tell if you're serious here. Are you trying to say that no one uses the term as specified in the second example? Have you watched any major sporting events in the united stated recently? Terms like "Illegal movement" "Illegal forward pass" or "Illegal formation" are used all the time. It's a very standard use of the word, and it's clearly not just for use when discussing a states or country's legal system. But, if you want to continue to think the way you do, I cannot change that. | ||
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:39 nihlon wrote: If I use these kind macro's in a custom game against a friend who agrees with me using it, can Blizzard still ban me? (Assuming they find out) I think so? I mean, if me and my friend is playing custom on Starcraft 2 - Blizzards game and we agree that both of us will use maphack we would be banned. Or if you and your friend agreed that you get to kill him, that would still be murder and against the law. ^^ | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:38 Egyptian_Head wrote: Losing is part of the game. I don't see a problem, whether the person is better or worse than me really makes no difference to my enjoyment of the match. Why would it? Ladder means we will be similar in skill (Him with keyboard, me without) regardless so why would his skill without the keyboard matter? You are narrow-minded beyond belief. | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:42 LemOn wrote: Wait....did Steel actually try to dumb down SC2 even more? Why not just use voice command like '4warpgaterush' sit back and enjoy the spectacle this | ||
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:41 deadjon wrote: I can't tell if you're serious here. Are you trying to say that no one uses the term as specified in the second example? Have you watched any major sporting events in the united stated recently? Terms like "Illegal movement" "Illegal forward pass" or "Illegal formation" are used all the time. It's a very standard use of the word, and it's clearly not just for use when discussing a states or country's legal system. But, if you want to continue to think the way you do, I cannot change that. I'm saying that even this limited application of illegal only works in the sense of "an illegal pass" or "an illegal foul", and not "an illegal violation of the software ToS." Criticizing someone for an illegal in-game action is not the same as criticizing someone for "illegally" playing that game much better than you thanks to some enhancement of the player. | ||
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xLethargicax
United States469 Posts
damn. | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:38 Egyptian_Head wrote: Losing is part of the game. I don't see a problem, whether the person is better or worse than me really makes no difference to my enjoyment of the match. Why would it? Ladder means we will be similar in skill (Him with keyboard, me without) regardless so why would his skill without the keyboard matter? You're advocating that cheating be part of the game. As long as he can't see your "drops", it's ok if the opponent cheats. Wow... | ||
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:29 deadjon wrote: Map hacks automate scounting, no? Keyboard macros automate APM, no? Both would ruin my fun. But I don't see how this is an argument of "fun" but rather an argument regarding a large esports sponsor openly condoning actions against Blizzards ToS. That's bad IMO. The first person quoting cut off the first part of my post which says that I think people are taking this too seriously not that they should or should not be allowed. Im only arguing that people are taking this way to seriously, im not arguing that they are or are not allowed or even should or should not be allowed. Just that people are taking it to seriously. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:45 Egyptian_Head wrote: The first person quoting cut off the first part of my post which says that I think people are taking this too seriously not that they should or should not be allowed. Im only arguing that people are taking this way to seriously, im not arguing that they are or are not allowed or even should or should not be allowed. Just that people are taking it to seriously. Your attitude of accepting cheating as part of the game scares me. What's going to stop you cheating by using the macros? You said you don't mind if an opponent uses the macros to cheat. What's going to stop you from doing the same if you think cheating is ok? This is what really scares me that there are people who share your beliefs and who cheat in the game because they think it's ok. | ||
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wordd
Australia190 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:48 wordd wrote: im totally going to buy this Not for Starcraft 2, right? | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:39 nihlon wrote: They can terminate your account for any reason of course. If I use these kind macro's in a custom game against a friend who agrees with me using it, can Blizzard still ban me? (Assuming they find out) | ||
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:45 Egyptian_Head wrote: The first person quoting cut off the first part of my post which says that I think people are taking this too seriously not that they should or should not be allowed. Im only arguing that people are taking this way to seriously, im not arguing that they are or are not allowed or even should or should not be allowed. Just that people are taking it to seriously. When there is money on the line, people tend to take things very seriously. Personally, I'd be annoyed to find out that someone beat me in game utilizing these type of programs / keyboards, as I'd not know if it was a fair fight. Professionally, I'd be let down if they allowed this to happen in a tournament. Just like I'm let down when my favorite pro athlete admits to using performance enhancing drugs, or throwing games for money. We all want eSports to become a real, legitimate thing, right? Enforcing the rules against this type of thing will only help that, allowing it to persist will hamper it. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:10 Egyptian_Head wrote: From the video description Disclaimer: Macro's are usually not legal in public StarCraft II tournaments, but can be a good tool when no playing competitively. Grubby, being a professional player, naturally is not using these features on a day-to-day basis - but is simply demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software. Your tournament scenario is irrelevant. Nothing is on the line, play experience not changed... not seeing a problem. Why does map hack mater then. By what you are saying it doesn't effect your experience. If you meet a map hacker on ladder you meet him because you have the same MMR and so the fight is fair. He has god aweful gameplay but full map vision. You have decent macro/micro/etc but you don't have full map vision. So that's a fair match acording to you. So you just made an argument for allowing map hacks. Okay mate, good luck with that. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:41 deadjon wrote: I can't tell if you're serious here. Are you trying to say that no one uses the term as specified in the second example? Have you watched any major sporting events in the united stated recently? Terms like "Illegal movement" "Illegal forward pass" or "Illegal formation" are used all the time. It's a very standard use of the word, and it's clearly not just for use when discussing a states or country's legal system. But, if you want to continue to think the way you do, I cannot change that. I still think one should avoid using the term illegal here. Simply to keep those annoying people out who come into every thread argueing semantics with "But its not illegal, you don't break any laws! Herpaderp", while really every single person involved knows what is meant. They add nothing to any discussion and just try to feel smart, so the best one could do is to try everything possible to keep them away from a thread. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
Some of the examples like the one he suggested with mutas/marines/thors is very strange. I'd be able to do it faster manually than hit a button. It just seemed kind of weird to have a macro with that much specificity. | ||
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
And again, the real issue here is that these macros are inferior compared to the real-time decision making of a gold-leaguer. How can you not laugh when Grubby talks about how a single macro will produce marines and thors and then attack-move them 2 minutes later, as if that could possibly save you from mutalisks killing your mineral line right the hell now? | ||
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:55 kedinik wrote: No one's trying to feel smart, it's just an awkward use of the word. And again, the real issue here is that these macros are inferior compared to the real-time decision making of a gold-leaguer. How can you not laugh when Grubby talks about how a single macro will produce marines and thors and then attack-move them 2 minutes later, as if that could possibly save you from mutalisks killing your mineral line right the hell now? I think you're wrong in what the real issue here is; Its that a eSports sponsor is advocating behaviors that are not allowed (damn you... making me not say illegal... I caved...) by Blizzard's own ToS and can result in your account being banned. Or am I missing something? | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:55 kedinik wrote: No one's trying to feel smart, it's just an awkward use of the word. And again, the real issue here is that these macros are inferior compared to the real-time decision making of a gold-leaguer. How can you not laugh when Grubby talks about how a single macro will produce marines and thors and then attack-move them 2 minutes later, as if that could possibly save you from mutalisks killing your mineral line right the hell now? Just because those macros were retarded doesn't mean you can't find real ways to abuse it. What about a macro that injects all your hatches in ~20ms. No matter how fast you are injecting 4 hatches takes upwards 500ms and a let longer for most people. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:55 kedinik wrote: No one's trying to feel smart, it's just an awkward use of the word. And again, the real issue here is that these macros are inferior compared to the real-time decision making of a gold-leaguer. How can you not laugh when Grubby talks about how a single macro will produce marines and thors and then attack-move them 2 minutes later, as if that could possibly save you from mutalisks killing your mineral line right the hell now? In broodwar this would have actually been very useful 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a as zerg using a 1 button push would be much much faster than doing it manually no matter how nimble your fingers are. SC2 is just an easier game so this type of macro is less useful. I'd say that things like larva inject or a patrol macro to split marines vs banelings could be very advantageous and possibly 'game breaking' respectively. I'm not sure if the keyboard can do this, but if so it would be a huge benefit. | ||
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Comogury
United States412 Posts
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:48 ptbl wrote: Your attitude of accepting cheating as part of the game scares me. What's going to stop you cheating by using the macros? You said you don't mind if an opponent uses the macros to cheat. What's going to stop you from doing the same if you think cheating is ok? This is what really scares me that there are people who share your beliefs and who cheat in the game because they think it's ok. If you had read this entire loooong quote you would know I have been saying that someone else using a macro keyboard does not affect my playing experience. Me using a macro keyboard on the other hand does affect my play experience. In this case for the worse, I like challenging games and a macro keyboard according to people in this thread would make the game easier hence I will not use it. What boogles my mind is why do people care what other do if it is not affecting how they experience the game. If you think it does affect how you experience the game great, I disagree. You are still taking this whole macro keyboard thing this far to seriously which is the entire point of everything I have said. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:00 Comogury wrote: my god these are probably some of the most ridiculous comments i have ever read. just because it's "against" the terms of service doesn't make it wrong. it's not even really breaking any rules. the intent of that statement was to describe people who actually cheat, like map hackers and people like that. i doubt blizzard gives any shits about people who use macros while they play. Speaking of ridiculous comments... How is breaking to ToS not wrong? :s | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:00 Comogury wrote: just because it's "against" the terms of service doesn't make it wrong. wait... what? Actually, it explicitly means it's wrong. | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:01 Egyptian_Head wrote: If you had read this entire loooong quote you would know I have been saying that someone else using a macro keyboard does not affect my playing experience. Me using a macro keyboard on the other hand does affect my play experience. In this case for the worse, I like challenging games and a macro keyboard according to people in this thread would make the game easier hence I will not use it. By that definition map hackers doesn't effect your experience either. >_< | ||
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Illusionnist
Ireland97 Posts
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Iamyournoob
Germany595 Posts
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:01 Vorenius wrote: Speaking of ridiculous comments... How is breaking to ToS not wrong? :s Ohh, morality discussions on the internet! There's no way this is going to end badly... I really just kinda feel bad for Grubby. He's the one that likely ends up looking the worst in all of this. He seems like such a nice guy too. Prob just read the teleprompter for the commercial and when on with his day... Or he's a low down cheating illegal bastard... O_o | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
I understand selling it but I can not condone dragging a pro player or a pro player letting it happen. It's called ethics and Grubby's doesn't appear to be too strong for doing this spot. In the end he had the choice rather to say no or yes and he's lost my respect at this time. | ||
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worldsnap
Canada222 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:03 Iamyournoob wrote: Since the game situation shown in the video are played on a non ladder map, probably against the computer, Steelseries does not support cheating in ladder games against human opponents. That is probably what they will say when they get confronted wit this... The terms of service don't just apply to bnet games. They apply to you playing starcraft. I don't see what's so confusing and why people think the title is sensationalist. Is it cheating by gaining an advantage that is explicitly forbidden in the ToS? Check. Is it using macros? Check. Is Grubby promoting it? Check... | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:05 Parnage wrote: I am not sure I can support a player or a company that's shilling out this kind of stuff using sc2 where its' pretty obvious such things are considered at the very least taboo and at most downright bannable and cheating. I understand selling it but I can not condone dragging a pro player or a pro player letting it happen. It's called ethics and Grubby's doesn't appear to be too strong for doing this spot. In the end he had the choice rather to say no or yes and he's lost my respect at this time. To be fair, a lot of teams are sponsored by steelseries and steelseries isn't the only KB manufacturer that has features like this. He makes a living doing this and just because he does a commercial saying it's great doesn't mean he thinks it is. Spokesmen often back products they don't believe in or don't care about... Watch IdrA's replay analysis... At the end he clearly doesn't give a fuck about whatever it was he was advertising, he did it for the $$ which is understandable. They gotta eat too. :D | ||
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:02 starcraft911 wrote: wait... what? Actually, it explicitly means it's wrong. I hope the Blizzard launcher can detect this and ban it. This is completely unfair. | ||
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:03 Vorenius wrote: By that definition map hackers doesn't effect your experience either. >_< I cannot hide anything, drops are way less effective, he knows where I start without scouting, can see when my army is out of position, knows my build, can see when im moving out to attack. etc. etc. Does seem to affect my experience quiet a bit. He knows things about me. The keyboard just helps his own game, it doesn't show him mine. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10679 Posts
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:10 Egyptian_Head wrote: I cannot hide anything, drops are way less effective, he knows where I start without scouting, can see when my army is out of position, knows my build, can see when im moving out to attack. etc. etc. Does seem to affect my experience quiet a bit. He knows things about me. The keyboard just helps his own game, it doesn't show him mine. I see, so having them see what you do effects your gameplay, but having them macro 20x faster doesn't. Ok, makes sense. | ||
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PeaNuT_T
Sweden326 Posts
This is how he gets food on the table by doing commercials and promos for his sponsors. | ||
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:12 GGzerG wrote: XsebT I like and respect you and your views but saying that Response's comment was unbelievably stupid was just un called for, and invalid within itself, sure keyboards with macros can potentially help a player, and give a certain edge, but for a player to get this edge he has to first completely relearn how he plays the game (assuming that he didn't always play with macro keys) Which is a pretty good assumption to make, I myself have played around 10 thousand games as Zerg since the beta, for me to stop how I play and completely relearn a new way in which I would have to stop what i'm doing and hit a macro key, then no, the advantage gained over this is so small, and the player with the better mechanics, apm, and skill will still almost always win, this is not giving anyone a huge advantage to win games, Everyone needs to think more logically instead of just thinking "Omg he can press 1 key and do multiple things" , it's not like the macro keys on a keyboard are going to win games for you. Its a slippery slope, no? Injecting larva is the best possible example (short of perhaps warp prisim micro perhaps?) How could it be fair to allow a keyboard macro to inject larva on 4+ hatches in a simple button push compared to how it's done currently? | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:01 Egyptian_Head wrote: If you had read this entire loooong quote you would know I have been saying that someone else using a macro keyboard does not affect my playing experience. Me using a macro keyboard on the other hand does affect my play experience. In this case for the worse, I like challenging games and a macro keyboard according to people in this thread would make the game easier hence I will not use it. What boogles my mind is why do people care what other do if it is not affecting how they experience the game. If you think it does affect how you experience the game great, I disagree. You are still taking this whole macro keyboard thing this far to seriously which is the entire point of everything I have said. your ability to pretend two players using vastly different control mechanics, one being greatly simplified, are equal, due to the MMS, is astounding. It sounds to me like you are trying to say.. "I like to be challenged, whether by fair or unfair competition, because i am too tough or stubborn to be affected my macro keyboards and so everyone else should feel that way, contrary to the published literature foreboding such advantages which was actually written by the authority on such things.." | ||
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ThaddeusK
United States231 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:12 starcraft911 wrote: I see, so having them see what you do effects your gameplay, but having them macro 20x faster doesn't. Ok, makes sense. i think the crux of the issue is that playing against a person with 300 APM without a macro keyboard and playing against a person with 300 APM with a macro keyboard (assuming they are identical otherwise) is actually the same experience. Where as playing against someone with skill x without a map hack and playing against a person with skill x with a map hack (meaning their skill is x after taking into account they have a map hack) is not the same experience, you have to play differently against someone with a map hack. So while using a macro keyboard definitely is cheating, its a form of cheating that affects the opponent much less than a map hack. This is why saying that using a macro keyboard is just as bad as map hacking because they are both cheating is so ridiculous, its like saying that jaywalking is as bad a murdering someone because they are both illegal. | ||
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Mithrandror
Belgium85 Posts
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:12 GGzerG wrote: XsebT I like and respect you and your views but saying that Response's comment was unbelievably stupid was just un called for, and invalid within itself, sure keyboards with macros can potentially help a player, and give a certain edge, but for a player to get this edge he has to first completely relearn how he plays the game (assuming that he didn't always play with macro keys) Which is a pretty good assumption to make, I myself have played around 10 thousand games as Zerg since the beta, for me to stop how I play and completely relearn a new way in which I would have to stop what i'm doing and hit a macro key, then no, the advantage gained over this is so small, and the player with the better mechanics, apm, and skill will still almost always win, this is not giving anyone a huge advantage to win games, Everyone needs to think more logically instead of just thinking "Omg he can press 1 key and do multiple things" , it's not like the macro keys on a keyboard are going to win games for you. i see your point about relearning, but consider that another player, who played (hypothetically) 3300 games with zerg and managed to achieve all the same things you have, ranks / wins / etc , but without the same skill and hard work that you have and have put in. Instead his 3x effectiveness (having done what you have in 1/3 the games) is coming from his use of the keyboard. whether or not they started on it is neither here nor there, but that they can gain unfairly from it. each game is case sensitive, and there will never be a WIN macro.. but tailoring the macro keyboard to any build or strat can obviously make it faster, as if it were being carried out by some kind of mad computer... and there you have skill-less gain. no? | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:23 Mithrandror wrote: I really find it hard to believe that a company like Steelseries would promote something that is illegal? Therefore I highly doubt that these specific kinds of macros are indeed a bannable offence. The macros that causes bans (exp. WoW) were basically mino-bots that led to entire series of events being executed over a longer period of time by 1 button. Therefore this threat is to much of an 'ow lets all bash Gruby whine....' blizzard has explicitly stated before that they will ban people who bind more than one action to one key. | ||
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FenneK
France1231 Posts
bad, bad move | ||
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
Quite amusing. | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:24 Deckkie wrote: The thing that actually surprises me is that there are people on TL that dont seem to mind macro's in SC2. (maybe it are all trolls). I can see some kid playing this game for fun and using some macro's, but I would never expect it from a TL user. i really hope it are all trolls -- you never know who is trading self-respekk for easier wins | ||
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deadjon
United States83 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:23 Mithrandror wrote: I really find it hard to believe that a company like Steelseries would promote something that is illegal? Therefore I highly doubt that these specific kinds of macros are indeed a bannable offence. The macros that causes bans (exp. WoW) were basically mino-bots that led to entire series of events being executed over a longer period of time by 1 button. Therefore this threat is to much of an 'ow lets all bash Gruby whine....' Didn't they disallow the ability for macro's to automate things for the user? Not only due to bots, but also heavily due to the arena where people got really upset that someone could build focus macros and just absolutely ruin your day. I see this as the same thing. Someone can gain an unfair advantage by utilizing these macros intelligently. Is the statement below true: If two players of equal skill face off, one is using a macro enabled keyboard, the macro using player will have an unfair advantage. If you think yes, then its a bannable offence, and keyboard manufactures should know better than to make advertisements like the one OP posted. If you think no, please explain why. | ||
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Regina
Netherlands148 Posts
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:28 Teejing wrote: Anyone actually watched the video? Grubby seems to be thinking how his listeners are about to cheat or get banned, hence his smug smile. Quite amusing. lol he has a look of, "i know what im saying, but damn if i actually believe it or want to say it" | ||
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Ventil
Sweden414 Posts
With tools like this, people being bad at the game gets an handicap in order to reach up to the same level as the better players, and I can see the logical point in that... But in the hands of the "good" players, it will give them unfair advantages I believe, and take away some of the core principles eSports stands for. Let eSports be pure. Edit: And also, I wouldn't hold any grudge towards Grubby. SteelSeries simply gave him a script and a bag of cash to shoot this commercial. If there's anyone to blame, it's the consumers that provides a demand of such functionalities. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
Thanks for making the choice in razer products that much easier steelseries! I'll definitely avoid steelseries products at all costs now | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
"Grubby promotes macro cheating" omg this will make my thread popular kekeke. Sensationalist title. | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
It's against the rules. The advantage of using macros is a null argument and irrelevant. | ||
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Glimred
China888 Posts
Anyway, thanks Grubby for showing me how to get my account banned. Also, I'm glad I don't own any steelseries products. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:12 GGzerG wrote: XsebT I like and respect you and your views but saying that Response's comment was unbelievably stupid was just un called for, and invalid within itself, sure keyboards with macros can potentially help a player, and give a certain edge, but for a player to get this edge he has to first completely relearn how he plays the game (assuming that he didn't always play with macro keys) Which is a pretty good assumption to make, I myself have played around 10 thousand games as Zerg since the beta, for me to stop how I play and completely relearn a new way in which I would have to stop what i'm doing and hit a macro key, then no, the advantage gained over this is so small, and the player with the better mechanics, apm, and skill will still almost always win, this is not giving anyone a huge advantage to win games, Everyone needs to think more logically instead of just thinking "Omg he can press 1 key and do multiple things" , it's not like the macro keys on a keyboard are going to win games for you. You'd seriously have a problem using one key to inject larvae if you used a macro instead of the 2 current debateable methods because it would be such a detriment to your current "playstyle". lol give me a break. | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:43 Glimred wrote: How are there so many people on TL who don't think there's something incredibly wrong about being able to map a complex series of actions to just one button? Anyway, thanks Grubby for showing me how to get my account banned. Also, I'm glad I don't own any steelseries products. yes im new here but i know that TL.net is an honorable type gaming community.. not a 1337 haXXor location for tips that will later be incorporated into the auto-play keyboard (whether its 5% automation or 50% automation - as i think someone has pointd out) STAY CLASSY TL.. dont use it | ||
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SixPackAbs
United States160 Posts
-grubby | ||
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GummyZerg
United States277 Posts
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:50 GummyZerg wrote: I would never want someone on the ladder using an edge such as this, glad it's not allowed. Its not allowed but I have yet to see a single person banned for using macros in any blizzard games. | ||
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Catreina
United States304 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:51 Hypemeup wrote: Its not allowed but I have yet to see a single person banned for using macros in any blizzard games. You sir are fucking blind then. How about you stop trolling, get your head out of your ass and the shit out of your eyes. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Defrag
Poland414 Posts
I guess larva inject hack should be allowed as well then, nothing really different then saving myself few clicks every 40s. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
I mean, I like the guy too but he's clearly promoting something that can and will get you banned. You can't just say this is 100% Steelseries and say they paid Grubby to do it. If I got paid to do something illegal, I'm still completely in the wrong, in the same way if you're going to hate Steelseries you better hate Grubby too. Otherwise you're just a fucking idiot. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:54 Catreina wrote: You sir are fucking blind then. How about you stop trolling, get your head out of your ass and the shit out of your eyes. Point me to once case where this has happend thanks. Also do take the time out and explain to me how they would be able to tell a macro doing it for me from me preforming the action myself. | ||
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jinixxx123
543 Posts
im really surprised grubby agreed to make this video when its common knowledge every RTS game (well at least blizzard own) does not promote macros like this. Next thing there is a macro to spam workers for the first 15 mins of the game. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Also from my experience the more stuff people use that makes their competetiv life easier, the weaker they get. So at the end they are as good as if they would have been without all these nice tools. Thats why i don't worry to much, the only bad thing about it is though, if you lose you think your opponent won because of the evil tools they use. (thats giving bad karma) | ||
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thOr6136
Slovenia1775 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:55 Defrag wrote: How can anyone argue this should be allowed? I guess larva inject hack should be allowed as well then, nothing really different then saving myself few clicks every 40s. why would you even want that -,.- isn't it better to have something challenging? it would be boring to use it :X | ||
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NomaD.
Romania42 Posts
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Phenny
Australia1435 Posts
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:59 Dia wrote: why would you even want that -,.- isn't it better to have something challenging? it would be boring to use it :X :p no you see i want it to be challenging for them, just not me. i'd like to press W , and the harder i press it, the more i WIN... so when things get really tough.. and the W key isnt doing right, ill have no effing clue what to do without my WIN button | ||
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PigglyWinks
364 Posts
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johnnyspazz
Taiwan1470 Posts
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Exarl25
1887 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:56 youngminii wrote: I don't understand why you guys all raise your pitchforks at Steelseries but then completely absolve Grubby from all responsibility. I mean, I like the guy too but he's clearly promoting something that can and will get you banned. You can't just say this is 100% Steelseries and say they paid Grubby to do it. If I got paid to do something illegal, I'm still completely in the wrong, in the same way if you're going to hate Steelseries you better hate Grubby too. Otherwise you're just a fucking idiot. I'm reserving judgement on how I feel about Grubby agreeing to this because no one really knows what went on behind closed doors. It's actually completely possible that Grubby himself was not aware that such tools are banned on ladder. Obviously they would be banned from tournaments, so as a competitor why would Grubby feel the need to research what Blizzard allow on their ladder? It doesn't concern him. None of us have the facts here so I see no reason to immediately throw him under the bus. Steelseries fucked up and Grubby, knowingly or unknowingly, went along with it. At this point in time that is all we can really say for sure. | ||
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Pochtli
Finland690 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:59 Dia wrote: why would you even want that -,.- isn't it better to have something challenging? It's naive to think that all of the people play to improve and have a fair game (in anything really, not just SC2) rather than get profit, whether it is ladder points, money and whatnot. Some people go further down the road than others in helping themselves to achieve these things. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:12 GGzerG wrote: XsebT I like and respect you and your views but saying that Response's comment was unbelievably stupid was just un called for, and invalid within itself, sure keyboards with macros can potentially help a player, and give a certain edge, but for a player to get this edge he has to first completely relearn how he plays the game (assuming that he didn't always play with macro keys) Which is a pretty good assumption to make, I myself have played around 10 thousand games as Zerg since the beta, for me to stop how I play and completely relearn a new way in which I would have to stop what i'm doing and hit a macro key, then no, the advantage gained over this is so small, and the player with the better mechanics, apm, and skill will still almost always win, this is not giving anyone a huge advantage to win games, Everyone needs to think more logically instead of just thinking "Omg he can press 1 key and do multiple things" , it's not like the macro keys on a keyboard are going to win games for you. As a Brood War player, I have a really hard time learning to utilize MBS (I believe you can get a third party cheat tool that allows for MBS in bw, so I feel like this example fits well). Sometimes I accidentally group units with buildings and mess stuff up and things like that. Playing SC2 is hard for me because of that, and it will no doubt take quite a bit "getting used to". However, that does not make it any less of an advantage. The same thing goes for macros. Maybe Response wouldn't be able to benefit from them right away, but that does not mean their potential should be ignored like he did. You could call his comment short sighted or whatever, though I went "stupid" and I feel like that's completely justified. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:59 Dia wrote: why would you even want that -,.- isn't it better to have something challenging? it would be boring to use it :X Ever heard of steroids? | ||
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thOr6136
Slovenia1775 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:05 Pochtli wrote: It's naive to think that all of the people play to improve and have a fair game (in anything really, not just SC2) rather than get profit, whether it is ladder points, money and whatnot. Some people go further down the road than others in helping themselves to achieve these things. well i am talking about myself, and asking him if he really does not feel the same as i do. I know there are ppl who want to get it done the easy way, but those ppl are just.. idk... | ||
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baby elephant
273 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:02 Phenny wrote: I never understand why so many TLers get so worked up over the most unimportant and insignificant things. I mean 30 pages for promoting macros (I know they ~shouldn't be used~), but if you're going to go up in arms at everything that people do that they shouldn't you gunna have a pretty tough life. how dare they be concerned about the integrity of the game. | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
For those that say that it is 'OK' because he got money... SteelSeries did it for money as well... Who are you trying to fool? In my eyes, Grubby just lost all respect. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:09 baby elephant wrote: how dare they be concerned about the integrity of the game. Actual pros dont give a shit because they know it doesnt change shit. | ||
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:19 Vulcano wrote: your ability to pretend two players using vastly different control mechanics, one being greatly simplified, are equal, due to the MMS, is astounding. It sounds to me like you are trying to say.. "I like to be challenged, whether by fair or unfair competition, because i am too tough or stubborn to be affected my macro keyboards and so everyone else should feel that way, contrary to the published literature foreboding such advantages which was actually written by the authority on such things.." Pretty much. I am saying is everyone is taking it to seriously because it does not affect your experience playing the game. The ladder system negates any bad side effects it has. Im not arguing that it should be allowed, that's up to blizzard. I see people more upset by macro keyboards than third world hunger. Its rather amusing. | ||
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mangomango
United States265 Posts
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:09 willoc wrote: Grubby is as much to blame for this as SteelSeries. For those that say that it is 'OK' because he got money... SteelSeries did it for money as well... Who are you trying to fool? In my eyes, Grubby just lost all respect. grubby getting paid helps grubby.. steelseries gettin paid helps SS's capital. Grubby, hypothetically, took 2% of the profits from the exchange, while steelseries the other 98%. proportionate blame? 2pts bad for grubby, 98 pts bad for SS | ||
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dar0za
Canada74 Posts
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Babaganoush
United States626 Posts
I don't see why you should use it in competitive SC2 (even laddering). I find all those extra things I have to keep watch of (such as larvae injects) exciting. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
I use a mouse and keyboard to play CoD on xbox 360, I know it gives me an unfair advantage, but what do I care? I play the game solely for fun on my own terms, not on the terms of random people on forums. Same can be said for this issue. Its my 50$. | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
I never really followed grubby, so it won't be a huge issue for me. However my respect for him as a Starcraft 2 player has been lowered a notch. | ||
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s.a.y
Croatia3840 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:17 dar0za wrote: grubby has nothing to do with this, he'd be an idiot to morally reject the proposition steelseries gave him. while we're at it, why don't we vilify idra for promoting kingston hyperx ram because of the working conditions the silicon miners endured. wow, that's a long shot comparison. Grubby&SS are promoting SC2 cheating, and Idra&HyperX should be blamed for components used for creating memory sticks? what? | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:12 Egyptian_Head wrote: Pretty much. I am saying is everyone is taking it to seriously because it does not affect your experience playing the game. The ladder system negates any bad side effects it has. Im not arguing that it should be allowed, that's up to blizzard. I see people more upset by macro keyboards than third world hunger. Its rather amusing. lol @ the ladder system correcting anything to do with macro keyboards.. if anything, macro keyboards affect ones placement on the ladder system, thus being manipulated in the opposite fashion as you described. and yes, it is up to blizzard, as described in the ToS .. so which is it, we shouldnt care if they are used or we are taking the topic too seriously | ||
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Ejohrik
Sweden219 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:17 Seide wrote: Who cares, 99% of people are not progamers who contribute anything to the proscene outside of viewership. For them its a matter of taste, that other 1% already has regulations against it. I use a mouse and keyboard to play CoD on xbox 360, I know it gives me an unfair advantage, but what do I care? I play the game solely for fun on my own terms, not on the terms of random people on forums. Same can be said for this issue. Its my 50$. I care, and I bet many others do. I think most players. not only pros, want to play the game on even terms, knowing that your opponent does not have any advantage outside of his own skill. Fair play is not only meant for professional competition. If you use a mouse and keyboard for CoD on a console, when it's not supported, that's unfair to other players. You may think you have fun, but you are ruining the fun for many others. Players who have bought the game for their $50. They payed that money, expecting be able to play the game with other players using the gamepad for which the game was intended. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:19 ptbl wrote: This pretty much means I'm not buying steelseries products.I don't support companies that promote cheating in Starcraft 2. The integrity of the game must be upheld and protected. I'll stick with Razer for now. Good thing Razer does not sell macro keyboar.... Shit. | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:24 Ejohrik wrote: I care, and I bet many others do. I think most players. not only pros, want to play the game on even terms, knowing that your opponent does not have any advantage outside of his own skill. Fair play is not only meant for professional competition. If you use a mouse and keyboard for CoD on a console, when it's not supported, that's unfair to other players. You may think you have fun, but you are ruining the fun for many others. Players who have bought the game for their $50. They payed that money, expecting be able to play the game with other players using the gamepad for which the game was intended. yes yes +1 +1 the only ppl who 'dont care' are the ones justifying the use of such cheaperies | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:24 Hypemeup wrote: Good thing Razer does not sell macro keyboar.... Shit. Please link me to a youtube video or article where Razer has promoted their macro keyboard to be used for Starcraft 2. | ||
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Egyptian_Head
South Africa508 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:21 Vulcano wrote: lol @ the ladder system correcting anything to do with macro keyboards.. if anything, macro keyboards affect ones placement on the ladder system, thus being manipulated in the opposite fashion as you described. and yes, it is up to blizzard, as described in the ToS .. so which is it, we shouldnt care if they are used or we are taking the topic too seriously Ladder system means even if someone is using a macro keyboard you will only face them if you have a reasonable chance of beating them, hence your play experience is not affected meaning there is no need to take it overly seriously. | ||
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askTeivospy
1525 Posts
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Skamtet
Canada634 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:27 ptbl wrote: I think their Starcraft II gear is enough promotion for macro functions in Starcraft IIPlease link me to a youtube video or article where Razer has promoted their macro keyboard to be used for Starcraft 2. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:24 Hypemeup wrote: Good thing Razer does not sell macro keyboar.... Shit. You, as many people in this thread, simply do not get what it is about. It is not about Macro Keyboards. It is about specifically promoting the Macro capability as an aid in cheating in competetive gaming. There are many good reasons to use macros. But there is also a possibility of abuse. I think most people will understand that things can be used in different ways, and when the same thing might be used to do something useful, or something bad, in many cases it is ok to sell it for the useful thing. It is not okay to sell it to do the wrong thing with. Macrokeyboards are okay. You can use macros for work, or for surfing, or whatever. Using macros to cheat in games is not okay. Promoting your keyboards explicitly by stating that you can use them to cheat in games is as a result of that also not okay. I will spare you comparisons because there already are way to many of those in this thread, which usually result in people talking about the compared item instead of the item the thread is actually about. | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:29 Skamtet wrote: I think their Starcraft II gear is enough promotion for macro functions in Starcraft II Please link me to a youtube video or article where Razer promotes their macro keyboard to be used for Starcraft 2. You are saying that Razer is also promoting macro keyboard cheating in Starcraft 2 like Steelseries. Please provide proof. If there is evidence, I will also not buy Razer products. I just want proof that they have been promoting cheating for Starcraft 2 through the usage of their macro keyboards. | ||
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Glowbox
Netherlands330 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:27 ptbl wrote: Please link me to a youtube video or article where Razer has promoted their macro keyboard to be used for Starcraft 2. So promoting is bad, but with Razer/Logitech you can do the same thing so that's ok? | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:27 ptbl wrote: Please link me to a youtube video or article where Razer has promoted their macro keyboard to be used for Starcraft 2. Hello again buddy, calmed down abit I see! http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.199817100/categoryId.35156900 On-The-Fly Macro Recording Allows For Effortless Configuration Record unlimited macros on-the-fly without having to take your eye off the game and immediately change between up to 10 profiles without the hassle of going into complex driver menus. PS: HI Skamtet, still posting in the OT on AJ? | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:24 Ejohrik wrote: I care, and I bet many others do. I think most players. not only pros, want to play the game on even terms, knowing that your opponent does not have any advantage outside of his own skill. Fair play is not only meant for professional competition. If you use a mouse and keyboard for CoD on a console, when it's not supported, that's unfair to other players. You may think you have fun, but you are ruining the fun for many others. Players who have bought the game for their $50. They payed that money, expecting be able to play the game with other players using the gamepad for which the game was intended. What should I care about their 50$? They can also get the same thing and level the playing field if they really wanted to. Its not like they are going be top tier gamers where it actually matters. I like how the same people arguing that BWs UI limitations actually dont give it more integrity, just a "different game" because that APM will be used for something else in SC2, are ready to burn people at the stake over simple keyboard macros. | ||
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:17 Seide wrote: Who cares, 99% of people are not progamers who contribute anything to the proscene outside of viewership. For them its a matter of taste, that other 1% where it actually matters already have regulations against it. I use a mouse and keyboard to play CoD on xbox 360, I know it gives me an unfair advantage, but what do I care? I play the game solely for fun on my own terms, not on the terms of random people on forums. Same can be said for this issue. Its my 50$. Really? You can honestly sit there and type that with a straight face? This is a pitiful justification. Way to ruin the experience for everyone else, when you can't compete with them on fair terms. This is the exact same scenario as hacking in any PC game. Your enjoyment is not more important than everyone elses enjoyment. | ||
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PigglyWinks
364 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:27 Egyptian_Head wrote: Ladder system means even if someone is using a macro keyboard you will only face them if you have a reasonable chance of beating them, hence your play experience is not affected meaning there is no need to take it overly seriously. How fun is it to play against someone with awful game sense and micro who can only keep up because he's carried by auto-play macro? It's not just about winning. Some people value good, fair and exciting matches. | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:32 Hypemeup wrote: Hello again buddy, calmed down abit I see! http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.199817100/categoryId.35156900 PS: HI Skamtet, still posting in the OT on AJ? Thank you. I'm also done with Razer. | ||
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vudulp
Brazil45 Posts
I have and arctoza and just to test I set a macro key where one single key select all my hatches>S>ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ make 125251515 lings in les than a second. So don't say razer doest make that, they just didn't promote this stuff as sc2 macro. and no I dont use it i can simple hold z or whatever I want to spamm | ||
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Looky
United States1608 Posts
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YodaGoneMad
United States58 Posts
Pro-tip: A major marketing point of the Razer Blackwidow and other Razer products is that the macros are done within the keyboard hardware rather than software. Making them completely undetectable on any game (because the keyboard is sending the keystrokes just as if you hit the key). Many Razer products also tout the fact that the macros are stored in the keyboard memory. You don't need the software installed for them to work. You can setup your favorite macros, take your keyboard to a tourney, and they will work just as they are supposed to and be completely undetectable. Razer may not have made a commercial to say all this, but they tout these features and these are the real world uses for them. | ||
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Ighox
Norway580 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:58 jinixxx123 wrote: can blizzard even check for macro's in thier anti hack programs or whatever they use? im really surprised grubby agreed to make this video when its common knowledge every RTS game (well at least blizzard own) does not promote macros like this. Next thing there is a macro to spam workers for the first 15 mins of the game. No, they can't. And as for Grubby, it's not like he's using them or anything so I couldn't care less, not gonna start hating someone just because they're in a trash commercial, then my hate-list would be pretty big. :p | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
Razer does not promote the usage of the macro keys for SC2 ... and when you look at where those keys are (assuming only they are programmable while the shift can program every key), their placement on the very top right of the keyboard is totally unsuitable to be used for sc2. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:32 Glowbox wrote: So promoting is bad, but with Razer/Logitech you can do the same thing so that's ok? Exactly. Because there apparently are legitimate reasons to wanting the macro buttons. The buttons themselves are not the bad thing. Using them for cheating in games is. So if your selling point is "You can use macro buttons to cheat in games", that is bad. If your selling point is "Our keyboards are good, you can use them for gaming. Also, there are macro buttons on them", that is ok. Edit: Also, just to avoid being a fanboy or something, i don't use a specific gaming keyboard, i generally buy some cheap 10€ thing without fancy stuff on it and use it until it breaks. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:33 Angry_Fetus wrote: Really? You can honestly sit there and type that with a straight face? This is a pitiful justification. Way to ruin the experience for everyone else, when you can't compete with them on fair terms. This is the exact same scenario as hacking in any PC game. Your enjoyment is not more important than everyone elses enjoyment. I can sit here and type it with a straight face because its not like they cant attain the same tools that I have. They just choose not to, and that is not my problem. I dont claim to be good at the game even though I do very good but thats because im using an input method im used to. I am not willing to throw away 10 years of mouse/keyboard fps and switch to a controller ive barely used just so I can play with my friends. Input method should be my personal preference, I don't believe that a developer should limit me in that respect. Open input methods open up games to more people, some people can actually benefit heavily from macros, for example the disabled who actually often are not thought about when developers design control schemes. Are you going to demonize someone who has joint issues, and who uses macros because it alows them to make the game keep up with their minds? I would never use aim hack or a map hack, but as far as what peripheral I choose to use for input and how I use it should be up to the player. | ||
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ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:36 TBO wrote: Razer does not promote the usage of the macro keys for SC2 ... and when you look at where those keys are (assuming only they are programmable while the shift can program every key), their placement on the very top right of the keyboard is totally unsuitable to be used for sc2. Oops, I didn't click on the link, I just went by the word of the previous poster. Thanks for letting me know. I'll have to think about my position with Razer, but I'm definitely done with steelseries. | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:27 Egyptian_Head wrote: Ladder system means even if someone is using a macro keyboard you will only face them if you have a reasonable chance of beating them, hence your play experience is not affected meaning there is no need to take it overly seriously. stupid circular arguement -- you'll never convince me that using macro keyboards doesnt affect ones gameplay and you'll never convince anyone with a quarter of a brain that using a macro keyboard against ppl at the same placement as yourself will still render fair matches and even playing fields.. the only way that would ever happen is that a sub-skilled player to yourself winds up in your league, and places a match with you, in which he has an equal chance to win.... the guy who isnt as good as you... herp derp fucking derp | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
Aside from SteelSeries being dumb for the ad (it won't really matter, gamers forget in a week), Grubby is one sexy mf. | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:39 ptbl wrote: Oops, I didn't click on the link, I just went by the word of the OP. Thanks for letting me know. I'll have to think about my position with Razer, but I'm definitely done with steelseries. lol why are you so sensitive about this? | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:36 TBO wrote: Razer does not promote the usage of the macro keys for SC2 ... and when you look at where those keys are (assuming only they are programmable while the shift can program every key), their placement on the very top right of the keyboard is totally unsuitable to be used for sc2. They sure dont want you to use those macro keys ingame, thats why they included them on their Starcraft2 keyboard! | ||
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hahaimhenry
Canada368 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
I hate cheaters, people who defend cheaters, and people who promote products to make it easier for people to cheat, especially when it's specifically against the ToS. My anti-cheating stance in Starcraft pretty much developed after what sAviOr and his gang did in broodwar. Though, I always had a deep heated hatred for any type of cheating (homework, relationship, etc). | ||
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Hokay
United States738 Posts
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rycho
United States360 Posts
personally i couldn't care less if my opponent wants to "cheat" in this way. if i'm meeting them on ladder it means they're approximately as good as me, be it with macros or without. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:43 Hokay wrote: I wouldn't mind playing people who use macros because it would be like simulating a game vs Nada. How cool is that? I bet you can't simulate his body though | ||
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Atlas247
Canada318 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:43 rycho wrote: why does anyone care how their opponent plays? it obviously isn't allowed in pro tournaments and if you meet someone on ladder using this you won't know the difference. its not like map hacking where the game would be completely different, it just allows you to do things like build buildings with one button instead of two. personally i couldn't care less if my opponent wants to "cheat" in this way. if i'm meeting them on ladder it means they're approximately as good as me, be it with macros or without. Well, how about cheating on a test or exam in a class that has no curve? It's not affecting other people, but it's still wrong. | ||
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Ejohrik
Sweden219 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:37 Seide wrote: I can sit here and type it with a straight face because its not like they cant attain the same tools that I have. They just choose not to, and that is not my problem. I dont claim to be good at the game even though I do very good but thats because im using an input method im used to. I am not willing to throw away 10 years of mouse/keyboard fps and switch to a controller ive barely used just so I can play with my friends. Input method should be my personal preference. It still is cheating. Just because everyone is able to do something does not justify doing it. Anyone can download aimbot/maphack. Anyone can download a videogame or a movie off the internet instead of paying. Does that make them right? I think not. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:46 Ejohrik wrote: It still is cheating. Just because everyone is able to do something does not justify doing it. Anyone can download aimbot/maphack. Anyone can download a videogame or a movie off the internet instead of paying. Does that make them right? I think not. And how about disabled people who are generally not even considered when control scemes are designed, but can use macros to even up the playing field and make the game keep up with their minds. Are they cheaters too? Not everyone is a wanna-be progamer. Some people just want to enjoy games for what they are on their own terms. This kind of functionality opens the door to some people who otherwise would not be able to enjoy the game as much. | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:48 Seide wrote: And how about disabled people who are generally not even considered when control scemes are designed, but can use macros to even up the playing field and make the game keep up with their minds. Are they cheaters too? Are you really trying to say that the majority of starcraft 2 pleasers are physically disabled, so they need the assistance of a macro keyboard? | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:46 ptbl wrote: Well, how about cheating on a test or exam in a class that has no curve? It's not affecting other people, but it's still wrong. even if that situation, future tests will be curved to accommodate for those 'hella smart' kids and the success of the curriculum. i like imagining this whole principle all simple like.. a game of ball and jack, in which your opponent has 3 more hands than you do | ||
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TVUmK
United States91 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:43 rycho wrote: why does anyone care how their opponent plays? it obviously isn't allowed in pro tournaments and if you meet someone on ladder using this you won't know the difference. its not like map hacking where the game would be completely different, it just allows you to do things like build buildings with one button instead of two. personally i couldn't care less if my opponent wants to "cheat" in this way. if i'm meeting them on ladder it means they're approximately as good as me, be it with macros or without. I am pretty sure that if Blizzard announced to have one league for cheaters, and another for legitimate people, and that you could choose whichever you want of the two, the cheater one would be pretty empty. And all the people who "don't care" would not be in there, although if they really wouldn't care, 50% of them should end up in the cheaters league. Seriously, those arguments are so strange. I, for one, don't want to play against cheaters. I want to play against people who are legitimately as good as they play. It is not really that the game itself is different, it is the feeling of "Is this guy i am playing really as good as me, or am i fighting mostly against his scripts" that is annoying. Apparently, many people see it like i do, and want to play in an enviroment without cheaters. | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:49 Vulcano wrote: even if that situation, future tests will be curved to accommodate for those 'hella smart' kids and the success of the curriculum. i like imagining this whole principle all simple like.. a game of ball and jack, in which your opponent has 3 more hands than you do Yeah, but the effect on the curve is negligible if let's say 10 people are cheating in a class of 400 people. It's still wrong, though. Cheating is morally and ethically wrong. In the case of starcraft 2, it's also against the rules. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:48 Seide wrote: And how about disabled people who are generally not even considered when control scemes are designed, but can use macros to even up the playing field and make the game keep up with their minds. Are they cheaters too? The whole "it's not cheating because it evens up the playing field between skilled and unskilled players" argument is kinda silly because that's why there are separate leagues. Speaking to disabled persons playing this game is a different argument. I seriously doubt that Steelseries developed this keyboard to cater to the small amount of disabled people playing Starcraft 2. | ||
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IronMonocle
Canada142 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:43 rycho wrote: why does anyone care how their opponent plays? it obviously isn't allowed in pro tournaments and if you meet someone on ladder using this you won't know the difference. its not like map hacking where the game would be completely different, it just allows you to do things like build buildings with one button instead of two. personally i couldn't care less if my opponent wants to "cheat" in this way. if i'm meeting them on ladder it means they're approximately as good as me, be it with macros or without. lol your reasoning is completely ignorant. so I guess you are okay with playing with maphackers if you meet them in MM? that sounds really fair good thing blizzard does not think like you ^^ edit: can a TL mod speak on this? I find it strange that some people are in favor of macros in SC2...someone needs to tell these folks just flat out NO | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:54 Golgotha wrote: lol your reasoning is completely ignorant. so I guess you are okay with playing with maphackers if you meet them in MM? that sounds really fair good thing blizzard does not think like you ^^ Yeah, he would be fine playing against maphackers because "meeting whem on ladder it means they're approximately as good as me." | ||
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JackDragon
525 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:48 Seide wrote: And how about disabled people who are generally not even considered when control scemes are designed, but can use macros to even up the playing field and make the game keep up with their minds. Are they cheaters too? Yes, yes they are. Now don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with disabled people using macros to be competetiv to other players, because frankly anyone not disabled should be able to get better then them anyway with some training. I don't think macros like this would make a huge differense. The problem is that you can not prove it online and make 100% certain. Also were do you draw the line? how disabled do you need to be to be "allowed" to use macros? Again how do you prove it? What people allready have said, Grubby just do what his sponsor whants him to do because he needs the sponsor money. Nothing wrong with that. The ones in the wrong here is steal series who should have done a better job looking up the rules. | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:49 ptbl wrote: Are you really trying to say that the majority of starcraft 2 pleasers are physically disabled, so they need the assistance of a macro keyboard? thats a low blow to the first poster on disabled pplz i mean cmon, justify yourself within respectable parameters | ||
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Ejohrik
Sweden219 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:48 Seide wrote: And how about disabled people who are generally not even considered when control scemes are designed, but can use macros to even up the playing field and make the game keep up with their minds. Are they cheaters too? Yes, they are. Everything is not black and white, though. It's hard to judge how much assistance is needed to level the field perfectly. StarCraft II, as well as many other games, is about pressing buttons fast. It may sound harsh, but if you don't have the physical capabilites to compete, you should look for an other game or for opponents which have the same opportunities as you have. That's how all sports work | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:55 ptbl wrote: Yeah, he would be fine playing against maphackers because "meeting whem on ladder it means they're approximately as good as me." yup i just laughed when I read that. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:52 Razuik wrote: The whole "it's not cheating because it evens up the playing field between skilled and unskilled players" argument is kinda silly because that's why there are separate leagues. Speaking to disabled persons playing this game is a different argument. I seriously doubt that Steelseries developed this keyboard to cater to the small about of disabled people playing Starcraft 2. It may not have been developed to cater to them, but they can use it to their benefit. Demonifing Grubby and SS for promoting fuctionality that all game keyboard manufacturers have been including for years is just plain unfair to Grubby and SS. Macro functionality is available to anyone if they want it. Some people make the choice that its cheating and dont want it, because they consider it cheating and thats fine. But that is the choice they made made. Others will use it because it just makes the game more fun to play for them, and will see if the functionality is available to everyone, then they can't be faulted for the choices of others. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15721 Posts
Seems they need to do better marketing research. These kind of keyboards are great for WoW players, but the SC2 community is extremely different. I'd say that Steelseries making this product has done them more harm than good. I'd never buy a product from a company that makes this keyboard. On June 10 2011 06:59 Seide wrote: It may not have been developed to cater to them, but they can use it to their benefit. Demonifing Grubby and SS for promoting fuctionality that all game keyboard manufacturers have been including for years is just plain unfair to Grubby and SS. Macro functionality is available to anyone if they want it. Some people make the choice that its cheating and dont want it, because they consider it cheating and thats fine. But that is the choice they made made. Others will use it because it just makes the game more fun to play for them, and will see if the functionality is available to everyone, then they can't be faulted for the choices of others. Its already recognized as a bannable offense by Blizzard. 1 key = 1 action. There's no room for interpretation. SC2 is a competitive RTS game, not a platform adventure game. | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:56 Vulcano wrote: thats a low blow to the first poster on disabled pplz i mean cmon, justify yourself within respectable parameters No, the previous poster ignores that we have leagues: bronze, silver, gold, platinum, diamond, masters, and grandmasters. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:57 Ejohrik wrote: Yes, they are. Everything is not black and white, though. It's hard to judge how much assistance is needed to level the field perfectly. StarCraft II, as well as many other games, is about pressing buttons fast. It may sound harsh, but if you don't have the physical capabilites to compete, you should look for an other game or for opponents which have the same opportunities as you have. That's how all sports work But we are talking about a game. Not a sport. The majority of people who play this game are not wanna be progamers who treat this game as a sport. They play it more along the lines of pickup basketball, for enjoyment and stimulation. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:56 Vulcano wrote: thats a low blow to the first poster on disabled pplz i mean cmon, justify yourself within respectable parameters i think the fact that he even brought up the reasoning of disabled folks in the first place to justify using macros is the low blow and very shameful to him. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:59 Seide wrote: It may not have been developed to cater to them, but they can use it to their benefit. Demonifing Grubby and SS for promoting fuctionality that all game keyboard manufacturers have been including for years is just plain unfair to Grubby and SS. Macro functionality is available to anyone if they want it. Some people make the choice that its cheating and dont want it, because they consider it cheating and thats fine. But that is the choice they made made. Others will use it because it just makes the game more fun to play for them, and will see if the functionality is available to everyone, then they can't be faulted for the choices of others. People may have different opinions on whether or not it's cheating, but it's not people's opinion that makes the rules for the game. It's Blizzard's ToS that said it's illegal to use in game. | ||
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Coolbeans
Ireland162 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:00 Mohdoo wrote: Never been a big fan of steelseries, and this only makes their case worse. Seems they need to do better marketing research. These kind of keyboards are great for WoW players, but the SC2 community is extremely different. I'd say that Steelseries making this product has done them more harm than good. I'd never buy a product from a company that makes this keyboard. Well stop getting razor and logitech keyboards as well then. The razor starcraft 2 themed keyboard has macro functionality specifically for "on the fly macros while gaming" | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:59 Seide wrote: It may not have been developed to cater to them, but they can use it to their benefit. Demonifing Grubby and SS for promoting fuctionality that all game keyboard manufacturers have been including for years is just plain unfair to Grubby and SS. Macro functionality is available to anyone if they want it. Some people make the choice that its cheating and dont want it, because they consider it cheating and thats fine. But that is the choice they made made. Others will use it because it just makes the game more fun to play for them, and will see if the functionality is available to everyone, then they can't be faulted for the choices of others. actually doesnt blizzard also make that choice, that using macros is cheating.. anything that is more than one command bound to one keypress. ppl who 'choose to use it' are obvious in their defense - not implying that you do - just that the defense is moot due to the ToS | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15721 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:01 Seide wrote: But we are talking about a game. Not a sport. The majority of people who play this game are not wanna be progamers who treat this game as a sport. They play it more along the lines of pickup basketball, for enjoyment and stimulation. Macros have been specified as cheating by Blizzard as well as every single tournament organization. Sports are games, and they are played competitively. Same for SC2. What don't you understand that this has already been deemed cheating a long time ago? This isn't an ongoing discussion with grey area. People get banned for it. People aren't allowed to do this in tournaments. | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
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ginnipig
Canada84 Posts
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
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piskooooo
United States351 Posts
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:04 Mohdoo wrote: Macros have been specified as cheating by Blizzard as well as every single tournament organization. Sports are games, and they are played competitively. Same for SC2. What don't you understand that this has already been deemed cheating a long time ago? This isn't an ongoing discussion with grey area. People get banned for it. People aren't allowed to do this in tournaments. And what do you not get about me saying that a lot of the people who use these things will never set foot in the competetive or tournament scene, making it not an issue. Not every game is played casually by tournament rules. :/ Tounaments already have regulations against them as these types of things don't really have a place there. It's agaisnt the ToS sure, but the people who bring you the ToS are the same people who brought you bnet2.0. | ||
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Trizz
Netherlands1318 Posts
Bad move Steelseries & Grubby. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:07 Seide wrote: And what do you not get about me saying that a lot of the people who use these things will never set foot in the competetive or tournament scene, making it not an issue. Not every game is played casually by tournament rules. :/ Tounaments already have regulations agains't them as these types of things don't really have a place there. Casual or not, it is BANNED in LADDER by BLIZZARD. Major tournaments only reinforce the thoughts of Blizzard. | ||
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:59 Seide wrote: It may not have been developed to cater to them, but they can use it to their benefit. Demonifing Grubby and SS for promoting fuctionality that all game keyboard manufacturers have been including for years is just plain unfair to Grubby and SS. Macro functionality is available to anyone if they want it. Some people make the choice that its cheating and dont want it, because they consider it cheating and thats fine. But that is the choice they made made. Others will use it because it just makes the game more fun to play for them, and will see if the functionality is available to everyone, then they can't be faulted for the choices of others. That is NOT a choice they made, that is a choice BLIZZARD made. Just like you hooking up your keyboard and mouse to your xbox is cheating, because microsoft deems it so. It is not up to your discretion. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15721 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:07 Seide wrote: And what do you not get about me saying that a lot of the people who use these things will never set foot in the competetive or tournament scene, making it not an issue. Not every game is played casually by tournament rules. :/ Are you talking about people playing custom games against each other with custom macros? Or laddering? If they are laddering with custom macros, they are choosing to participate in a ranked, regulated competitive medium. By doing so, they agree to the terms of the competitive environment. By laddering with macros, they are choosing to obey their own set of rules and disrespecting their opponent as well as the ladder. However, if you are talking about playing against people where it is is already understood that they are using macros, and it is unranked, then that is just fine. But laddering with macros is plain and simply disrespectful. | ||
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snotboogie
Australia3550 Posts
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UkGracken
United Kingdom129 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:17 Seide wrote: But we are talking about a game. Not a sport. The majority of people who play this game are not wanna be progamers who treat this game as a sport. They play it more along the lines of pickup basketball, for enjoyment and stimulation. The majority of people who play sports or other "sports" are not trying to become pro, so there for we shall call it a game Baseball is a "game" Dont put down the people who play seriously who get there fun from winning just as much as playing. | ||
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PigglyWinks
364 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:01 Seide wrote: But we are talking about a game. Not a sport. The majority of people who play this game are not wanna be progamers who treat this game as a sport. They play it more along the lines of pickup basketball, for enjoyment and stimulation. Did you agree that there would be no fouling before you started that game of pickup bball? Because you did for Starcraft 2. If you want to play a game for fun on your own terms, go play with your friends or play a single player game and stay away from the competitive online games, asshole. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:10 Mohdoo wrote: Are you talking about people playing custom games against each other with custom macros? Or laddering? If they are laddering with custom macros, they are choosing to participate in a ranked, regulated competitive medium. By doing so, they agree to the terms of the competitive environment. By laddering with macros, they are choosing to obey their own set of rules and disrespecting their opponent as well as the ladder. However, if you are talking about playing against people where it is is already understood that they are using macros, and it is unranked, then that is just fine. But laddering with macros is plain and simply disrespectful. I agree with you about using it on ladder, I personally dont use macros for SC2. I just think it's unfair the way people are demonizing Grubby and SS for promoting a product with functionality that every other gaming peripheral company also makes. When for some people who dont care about competetive play, it can actually make the game much more enjoyable. Its not like they went and said "GO USE THIS ON LADDER NOW, WILL MAKE U INSTA GRANDMASTER". | ||
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Unhallowed
Canada171 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 Ahelvin wrote: I think Grubby was asked to do a commercial in exchange for some money, and of course he accepted because he is a rational human being. I believe the term you are looking for is prostitution. User was warned for this post | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:15 Unhallowed wrote: I believe the term you are looking for is prostitution. Please... PLEASE open a dictionary! | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
Don't want to make other players think I am cheating when they see me use their products... :-/ | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15721 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:14 Seide wrote: I agree with you about using it on ladder, I personally dont use macros for SC2. I just think it's unfair demonizing Grubby and SS for promoting a product with functionality that every other gaming peripheral company also makes. When for some people who dont care about competetive play, it can actually make the game much more enjoyable. Its not like they went and said "GO USE THIS ON LADDER NOW, WILL MAKE U INSTA GRANDMASTER". Regardless of whether they to ladder with it or not, the standard method of playing SC2 is laddering. The vast majority of people who play SC2 against other people use the ladder system to do so. And even if they are not going to get to grandmaster, there are plenty of lower level players who try to improve through the standard and accepted methods. I myself am in master league, so I don't think anyone at my level would be using this anyway, but I know people who are diamond/plat/gold etc, and they try to improve. For someone to use a macro keyboard against them is unfair. But as I said, if they want to use this in an environment where it is understood they are using it and its not on the ladder, sure, go for it. But violating the rules you agree to by laddering is a really selfish thing to do, and I realize that you disagree with it on ladder. | ||
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Whiplash
United States2928 Posts
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
While I would not agree that one should call what grubby did like that as it would be an exaggeration... it's you who should look up an dictionary: put (oneself or one's talents) to an unworthy or corrupt use for personal or financial gain: his willingness to prostitute himself to the worst instincts of the electorate http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/prostitute | ||
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bwally
United States670 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15721 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:18 Whiplash wrote: Eh, it's not like any pros would use it... Are professionals the only people who agree to the rules of a ladder match? The issue is not whether this will lose someone money. The issue is that the standard rule set of laddering is violated by using this keyboard. If someone is choosing to ladder or participate in tournaments, they accept those rules. Professionals are not the only ones who enjoy the pursuit of improving at SC2. | ||
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Houkka
Finland51 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:01 Seide wrote: But we are talking about a game. Not a sport. The majority of people who play this game are not wanna be progamers who treat this game as a sport. They play it more along the lines of pickup basketball, for enjoyment and stimulation. You cheat in pickup basketball? Why would you do that, it's just a game! | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:20 TBO wrote: While I would not agree that one should call what grubby did like that as it would be an exaggeration... it's you who should look up an dictionary: put (oneself or one's talents) to an unworthy or corrupt use for personal or financial gain: his willingness to prostitute himself to the worst instincts of the electorate http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/prostitute I'm just saying he could have worded that differently is all lol. | ||
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Snarf
United States21 Posts
It doesn't mean he uses it. | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:20 Mohdoo wrote: Are professionals the only people who agree to the rules of a ladder match? The issue is not whether this will lose someone money. The issue is that the standard rule set of laddering is violated by using this keyboard. If someone is choosing to ladder or participate in tournaments, they accept those rules. Professionals are not the only ones who enjoy the pursuit of improving at SC2. Yah I find the statement from Steelseries that it is okay for non-tournament play to get an advantage by using macro keys to be elitist and insulting to everyone who enjoys the competition of ladder games - even if it is on a lower level, the people still have a right for a fair playing field. | ||
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Scriptix
United States145 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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TooL
Canada275 Posts
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Keilah
731 Posts
I actually can't think of anything good to macro anyways... maybe the 'send money to friends' buttons? Would be nice if I could instadump ALL my minerals/gas in one/two clicks instead of 20 | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
Also, way earlier in the thread someone mentioned about setting a macro for Shift + C, for example, being a violation, I think that's debatable (thought there should be an 'e' in there, but spellcheck says otherwise). I'm not sure modifiers count as separate clicks when it comes to the one click = one action policy. For example, we can rebind "Set Control Group 1" to 'X' instead of "Ctrl + 1". For me, the action is Setting the control group and I think the "Ctrl + 1" is sent to the server as one command. I'm not 100% sure Blizzard sees it this way, but I think it's arguable, not that it matters to Blizzard lol. | ||
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KneeDeeP
United States256 Posts
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drlame
Sweden574 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:36 KneeDeeP wrote: I don't see how people can say grubby isn't the one promoting this when he is in the video.....promoting it.......This would be like an athlete talking about how to use steroids in a video, but its okay cause he is just trying to make money and his sponsors wanted him to do it? Steroids are illegal to use. This keyboard is not illegal, a function the keyboard has is illegal in some games when playing online. Very situational and different. You can't really compare it lol. Anyway this keyboard looks awesome when playing MMORPGs. | ||
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boyle
United States134 Posts
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Warlike Prince
371 Posts
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:29 Keilah wrote: who cares that the keyboard can do macros, autohotkeys can do that with any keyboard. I actually can't think of anything good to macro anyways... maybe the 'send money to friends' buttons? Would be nice if I could instadump ALL my minerals/gas in one/two clicks instead of 20 There are lots of helpful macros that make things easier, and give you an unfair advantage over your opponent. 1. You can create a macro to inject all your hatches simply by placing your cursor in the middle of the screen and hitting one button. 2. You can set a macro to signal you every however many seconds when it's time to inject, warp in, anything. 3. You can set a macro for roach burrow micro that is decidedly unfair. It's definitely abusable. For the record, I don't play Zerg, so no, I don't use these macros that I just suggested lol. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15721 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:40 drlame wrote: Steroids are illegal to use. This keyboard is not illegal, a function the keyboard has is illegal in some games when playing online. Very situational and different. You can't really compare it lol. Anyway this keyboard looks awesome when playing MMORPGs. He promotes specific features which are not allowed in ladder play. That is the distinction in this situation compared to other times when pro-gamers have promoted a keyboard. Grubby goes into detail about how to use macros to make the game easier. It is "illegal" in the ladder. When someone ladders, they agree to the rules of the competition. | ||
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KneeDeeP
United States256 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:40 drlame wrote: Steroids are illegal to use. This keyboard is not illegal, a function the keyboard has is illegal in some games when playing online. Very situational and different. You can't really compare it lol. Anyway this keyboard looks awesome when playing MMORPGs. Okay but you get my point macro functions like this are illegal in any sort of ladder or tournament play. Its an unfair advantage in both situations which is more or less the point I'm trying to make, but for an mmo yes this would be an amazing keyboard which is exactly how they should have advertised this. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:22 Snarf wrote: He is a sponsored player, if his sponsor asks him to do a commercial he is obligated to becasue of his contract. I disagree with this. They can ask him to do a commercial promoting the product. That's fine. He isn't required to promote things that are specifically against the rules of the game. It's pretty damn stupid on Steelseries' part, but that's a separate issue. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15721 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:47 Kaitlin wrote: I disagree with this. They can ask him to do a commercial promoting the product. That's fine. He isn't required to promote things that are specifically against the rules of the game. It's pretty damn stupid on Steelseries' part, but that's a separate issue. Yeah, if anything, Grubby probably should have warned them about the sort of backlash they would get for something like this. I can't imagine the responses here would be much of a surprise to him. I can't imagine that Steelseries went into this knowing that they are supporting what is recognized as cheating lol :/ | ||
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Ravencruiser
Canada519 Posts
But can keyboard macros even be detected? I mean the blizzard server will still receive 4ddaaaaTabss as multiple key clicks right? Then again, they could implement something to detect gigantic APM fluctuations I suppose. | ||
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blizzind
United States642 Posts
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:52 Ravencruiser wrote: Sorry if this has already been answered: But can keyboard macros even be detected? I mean the blizzard server will still receive 4ddaaaaTabss as multiple key clicks right? Then again, they could implement something to detect gigantic APM fluctuations I suppose. I'm by no means an expert on how they detect cheating, but remember, every game you play, your opponent gets the replay and they can see your APM spikes, which they can report. If I was playing a Zerg, and the replay showed lightning quick larva injects, I would be suspect. There are quick, legal ways to inject, and then there are macros. Macros are way faster than even the quickest, most efficient ways of doing something. | ||
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Houkka
Finland51 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:40 drlame wrote: Steroids are illegal to use. This keyboard is not illegal, a function the keyboard has is illegal in some games when playing online. Very situational and different. You can't really compare it lol. What? Steroids aren't illegal. They're used as medication for several diseases (even anabolic steroids, which you're probably talking about). However, it is illegal to use them for some other purposes, like increasing body mass for bodybuilding or weightlifting. This is like a famous bodybuilder in a Bayer Pharmaceuticals ad, telling people how steroids can be used to increase body mass. The product isn't illegal, but the spokesperson is teaching you how to use it for an illegal purpose. | ||
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aike
United States1629 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:56 Kaitlin wrote: I'm by no means an expert on how they detect cheating, but remember, every game you play, your opponent gets the replay and they can see your APM spikes, which they can report. If I was playing a Zerg, and the replay showed lightning quick larva injects, I would be suspect. There are quick, legal ways to inject, and then there are macros. Macros are way faster than even the quickest, most efficient ways of doing something. Yea if you don't set up your macros right all of those actions would happen in milliseconds, which blizzard may or may not be able to detect (It is possible, but who knows if they are actually watching for it?) But just as in BW, multicommand stuff was always caught some how and banned. Thought I do imagine that blizzard does look at all reports against players... they are just super slow at it | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:52 Ravencruiser wrote: Sorry if this has already been answered: But can keyboard macros even be detected? I mean the blizzard server will still receive 4ddaaaaTabss as multiple key clicks right? Then again, they could implement something to detect gigantic APM fluctuations I suppose. Blizzard has been known to load in anti cheat software such as 'warden' as a patch to their games, if they choose to crack down on it they could as it is possible to detect the keyboard hooks the software listens for. In all fairness you don't need the SS keyboard in order to setup macros. A program like AutoHotkey works just as well if not better (providing you have some programming/scripting skills) The SS GUI just makes it easier for the lame. | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:06 XsebT wrote: As a Brood War player, I have a really hard time learning to utilize MBS (I believe you can get a third party cheat tool that allows for MBS in bw, so I feel like this example fits well). Sometimes I accidentally group units with buildings and mess stuff up and things like that. Playing SC2 is hard for me because of that, and it will no doubt take quite a bit "getting used to". However, that does not make it any less of an advantage. The same thing goes for macros. Maybe Response wouldn't be able to benefit from them right away, but that does not mean their potential should be ignored like he did. You could call his comment short sighted or whatever, though I went "stupid" and I feel like that's completely justified. XsebT I like and respect you and your views as well and let me say I agree with you completely. These "macros" have NO ROOM in the place of RTS competition, they should be 100% barred in all circumstances, situations, everything. From the roots of this, the fundamental problem arises. Blizzard themselves, as well as all the major gaming peripheral companies (SteelS, Razer) are selling SC2 Branded keyboards, with these macro functions built in. What can we infer from that? They are meant to be used in Starcraft 2 legally. That is wherein the argument of SteelSeries & Grubby being "wrong" is shattered making in what I believe this thread title slanderous and simply asinine, all it is is bringing attention to this thread focusing on the topic (of Grubby & SteelSeries in wrong) while ignoring the BIGGER PICTURE (Why are Sc2 keyboards being sold with macros built into them by Blizzard and other companies?)+ Show Spoiler + I honestly cannot believe this thread title is still up, I'm losing faith in the Sc2 General sub-forum mods. There is no doubt any macros are stupid, but this advertisement is a byproduct of sc2 keyboards being sold with macros in the first place. All this is, is showing you how to properly use these macros which are PRESENT in Blizzard, AND Razer Sc2 Keyboards. All of them are in the wrong, these macros have no place in RTS competition. In casual play, maybe. That is where the market is leaning toward anyway, casual gamers. So this shouldn't be a huge "surprise" to anyone. All Grubby did is read the script his sponsors told him to, anyone who says Grubby condones cheating needs to do their homework on one of the gaming legends of the RTS genre. SteelSeries is at fault here for making a dubious commercial like this, but they aren't doing anything illegal or telling anyone to do anything illegal in my opinion. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15721 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote: I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on. Oh, really? May I ask what game these keyboards are for and whether or not blizzard TOS allow for these macros to be used in SC2? | ||
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Gheed
United States972 Posts
http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001512 Enhanced with a dedicated on-the-fly macro recording system, the Razer Marauder is built with a gaming optimized design that reflects the StarCraft II universe and bolsters the gameplay experience. Oh my god guys, Razer does it too! No keyboard is safe! Esports is doomed! | ||
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AzurewinD
United States569 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote: I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on. O' White Knight of White Knights. Ye hath rode to our rescue. Long shall we shower praises of sweet blissful harmony upon thy vaunted head for... ...Claiming to read 30 pages of discussion and missing each post in which several people have already submitted the same point you have, only to be disproven time and time again when someone points out Blizzard doesn't explicitly encourage you to use macro keys specifically for Starcraft 2 in the way Steelseries did in their advertisement. In fact, they have banned people in the past and continue to assert that any macro setup involving 1 key press being mapped to multiple actions is a bannable offense. I thank you for delivering us from the darkness. You are a true hero. | ||
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Skamtet
Canada634 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:19 ptbl wrote: PS: HI Skamtet, still posting in the OT on AJ? T_T omg yes | ||
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Vulcano
United States147 Posts
really you only have to press them once, at the start just jab ur macros d u m b edit: and thats my last input. helping put the topic to rest by leaving it alone ty all for insight on the matter | ||
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bwally
United States670 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:15 AzurewinD wrote: O' White Knight of White Knights. Ye hath rode to our rescue. Long shall we shower praises of sweet blissful harmony upon thy vaunted head for... ...Claiming to read 30 pages of discussion and missing each post in which several people have already submitted the same point you have, only to be disproven time and time again when someone points out Blizzard doesn't explicitly encourage you to use macro keys specifically for Starcraft 2 in the way Steelseries did in their advertisement. In fact, they have banned people in the past and continue to assert that any macro setup involving 1 key press being mapped to multiple actions is a bannable offense. I thank you for delivering us from the darkness. You are a true hero. I think they do when the keyboard is skinned for SC2 and advertised explicitly while playing SC2. It's a lot of assuming, either way, that the macro keys + software were made not be used with the game. Either way blizzard didn't help themselves by making the keyboard. Edit: Also if the policy is to ban people for macros then they're idiots because their keyboard has this function so it's misleading. "Hey guys we're selling this sc2 keyboard with all these great buttons oh and by the way you can't use these keys over here or this software. glhf" | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
To all macro-users out there - if I were you, I would only use macros in special channels against people who confirm to also use macros. Otherwise I have no idea how it could be fun for you. edit: Oh shit, this is really bad for online tournaments. You can't know who played straight and who macroed. Blah.. well, the ultimate incentive against macros are the live tournaments - you won't be able to use your macro tricks there; where the real big money is. | ||
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:26 figq wrote: I hate macros, and wish there would be no such things - but on the other hand I don't see this as violation of Blizzard's rules (sadly). The program here is being memorized and executed within the hardware itself, not in the OS, so Blizzard cannot even detect it. Thus: SteelSeries may make us angry, but are likely not promoting anything illegal (nor is Grubby), and the ad would probably not be taken down. To all macro-users out there - if I were you, I would only use macros in special channels against people who confirm to also use macros. Otherwise I have no idea how it could be fun for you. If you read the thread... "Greetings, Using macros can get you banned. Its not illegal to use the keyboard. However, it is illegal to basically bot anything. You must have to push the key yourself. You can't map out 5 actions to one button. You can be banned for that. Devin W Game Master Taudarak Customer Services Blizzard Entertainment" On teamliquid. topic_id=146760 | ||
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KneeDeeP
United States256 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote: I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on. Nothing is wrong with a keyboard having macro capabilities like it has been said already its great for mmo gaming, but it is illegal in sc2 ladder and tournament play, and here you have a competitive sc2 player promoting macro use in the game he plays professionally. I just don't see how this is acceptable. | ||
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Aelonius
Netherlands432 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 Ahelvin wrote: I think Grubby was asked to do a commercial in exchange for some money, and of course he accepted because he is a rational human being. That being said, it is a major FAIL from Steelseries to promote something that is against Blizzard's ToS not only in tournament, but also in ladder gaming or custom games. Moral of the story? Grubby made some money, Steelseries' credibility has been hindered, commercial will be removed soon. Remember that creating a macro within a keyboard, is not a cheat in itself from the ToS. This is because of the fact that you need to press a button to activate that macro, and in Blizzards twisted sense of rules at times, this is allowed. Same with WoW and multi-boxing Unless I majorly fucked up lol | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote: I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on. I find it amusing that you pretend to read 30 pages of discussion, when it would be so easy to even just read a mod like Jibba to find out just how wrong you are. It has been mentioned already. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
The advantage they bring is marginal at the very least and if you are winning because of it, you were probably playing horribly to begin with. | ||
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Raji
United States31 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote: I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on. Except it has been pointed out several times. I find it amusing that you make assumptions about the discussion without having even looked at it. Congrats, you can now move on. | ||
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Shaok
297 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:34 Zombo Joe wrote: Keyboard macros won't help you become a better player nor help you win games. The advantage they bring is marginal at the very least and if you are winning because of it, you were probably playing horribly to begin with. Agreed, except for the playing horribly part... | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:29 ptbl wrote: Thanks, missed that, it's somewhat encouraging. Although, I still don't think they have a way of detecting it, unless the automated ("bot" + Show Spoiler + On June 10 2011 08:26 figq wrote: I hate macros, and wish there would be no such things - but on the other hand I don't see this as violation of Blizzard's rules (sadly). The program here is being memorized and executed within the hardware itself, not in the OS, so Blizzard cannot even detect it. Thus: SteelSeries may make us angry, but are likely not promoting anything illegal (nor is Grubby), and the ad would probably not be taken down. To all macro-users out there - if I were you, I would only use macros in special channels against people who confirm to also use macros. Otherwise I have no idea how it could be fun for you. If you read the thread... "Greetings, Using macros can get you banned. Its not illegal to use the keyboard. However, it is illegal to basically bot anything. You must have to push the key yourself. You can't map out 5 actions to one button. You can be banned for that. Devin W Game Master Taudarak Customer Services Blizzard Entertainment" On teamliquid. topic_id=146760  ) input is obviously too fast/simultaneous, to be human. I think issues of this sort are going to get only tougher in the future.Perhaps they can detect identical sequences of commands in multiple games - with time sequences being perfectly identical. Yes, this could work to catch potential abusers. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:57 Houkka wrote: What? Steroids aren't illegal. They're used as medication for several diseases (even anabolic steroids, which you're probably talking about). However, it is illegal to use them for some other purposes, like increasing body mass for bodybuilding or weightlifting. This is like a famous bodybuilder in a Bayer Pharmaceuticals ad, telling people how steroids can be used to increase body mass. The product isn't illegal, but the spokesperson is teaching you how to use it for an illegal purpose. Medical marijuana exists. Would you call that legal? They're both similar in that regard. | ||
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FatkiddsLag
United States413 Posts
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Houkka
Finland51 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:39 Ruscour wrote: Medical marijuana exists. Would you call that legal? They're both similar in that regard. I would call medical marijuana legal, yes. But I think you're missing the point. He was arguing that the use of steroids and the use of keyboard macros cannot be compared, to which I am responding that they can indeed be compared. They both can be used in a way that is legal, and in a way that is illegal. What grubby is talking about in the video is using this keyboard in a way that's against the rules. And it would be questionable even if he was talking about using the function within the rules. He is a competitive progamer, it looks bad for him to promote a function in a keyboard that is not allowed in the game he plays competitively. Just like it would look bad for Arnold Schwarzenegger to advertise medical use of anabolic steroids, because of his earlier fame in bodybuilding, in which steroids are not allowed. So as a short answer to your question, yes. Yes I would. | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
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IIIOmegaIII
Sweden319 Posts
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:09 Badfatpanda wrote: I find it amusing that after 30 pages of discussion nobody brought up the fact that Blizzard keyboards themselves have macros... His sponsor wanted him to do it, hes contractually bound to do so, big deal as long as you don't use them yourself. Congrats now this thread can move on. yea they did bring it up actually. A LOT. you are ridiculous. | ||
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TooL
Canada275 Posts
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ibogdandx
180 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:10 Whitewing wrote: Grubby is just plugging his sponsor, nothing wrong with it. It's steelseries product, if you have an issue with this kind of advertisement, take it up with them. this guy speaks the truth. | ||
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obsKura
Ireland1061 Posts
"Hey Manuel, the scene is quite confused right now about your promo of the SteelSeries Shift keyboard. I don't think this was intentionally but it would be awesome to hear your thoughts on this. The thread on TL does have already 34 pages. Just wanted to let you know in case you have not yet seen it. -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231856" Grubby "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." Please stop throwing shit on him. | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
I don't think anyone (should) be mad at Grubby for being forced into doing this, however It is kind of sad he didn't say this was wrong to steelseries,etc. and shame on steelseries in doing this. Edit: On June 10 2011 09:36 obsKura wrote: Update from Grubby's Fanpage on Facebook. He replied to a post on his Wall concerning this issue: https://www.facebook.com/FollowGrubby "Hey Manuel, the scene is quite confused right now about your promo of the SteelSeries Shift keyboard. I don't think this was intentionally but it would be awesome to hear your thoughts on this. The thread on TL does have already 34 pages. Just wanted to let you know in case you have not yet seen it. -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231856" Grubby "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." Please stop throwing shit on him. And shame on Blizzard. How are tournaments going to be able to check that? I'm not happy with their stance. | ||
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maliceee
United States634 Posts
On June 10 2011 09:36 obsKura wrote: Update from Grubby's Fanpage on Facebook. He replied to a post on his Wall concerning this issue: https://www.facebook.com/FollowGrubby "Hey Manuel, the scene is quite confused right now about your promo of the SteelSeries Shift keyboard. I don't think this was intentionally but it would be awesome to hear your thoughts on this. The thread on TL does have already 34 pages. Just wanted to let you know in case you have not yet seen it. -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231856" Grubby "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." Please stop throwing shit on him. Thx for this, maybe ppl will stop downing grubby doing what his sponsor requires. What's he supposed to do, decline his main sponsor? | ||
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legaton
France1763 Posts
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:15 AzurewinD wrote: O' White Knight of White Knights. Ye hath rode to our rescue. Long shall we shower praises of sweet blissful harmony upon thy vaunted head for... ...Claiming to read 30 pages of discussion and missing each post in which several people have already submitted the same point you have, only to be disproven time and time again when someone points out Blizzard doesn't explicitly encourage you to use macro keys specifically for Starcraft 2 in the way Steelseries did in their advertisement. In fact, they have banned people in the past and continue to assert that any macro setup involving 1 key press being mapped to multiple actions is a bannable offense. I thank you for delivering us from the darkness. You are a true hero. /sarcasm. sry I really only skimmed the first 10, but there is really no other implication for having macros on a Blizzard marketed SC2 product other than "hey we support this keyboard for this game". Oh whoops our TOS don't support macros...mixed messages ftw =D. So ya, Blizzard "explicitly encourage you to use macro..." to anyone who can put macros + keyboard for SC2 together. So no, even though there is not a public video advertisement of it, I am not disproven of anything. The people in this thread bashing Grubby for following the wishes of his sponsor should really direct their attention towards Steelseries instead if they must be angry at someone. All I was trying to say. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:53 IronMonocle wrote: Using "macro functions" on a keyboard isn't cheating, and if it is against blizzard terms of use then the terms should be changed. Civil law works in a similar way as outdated or broken laws are constantly being changed removed or adapted. It's Blizzard's game, they can make rules like this as much as they damn well please. This has nothing to do with law. By playing their game, you agree to their rules, period. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 09:36 obsKura wrote: Update from Grubby's Fanpage on Facebook. He replied to a post on his Wall concerning this issue: https://www.facebook.com/FollowGrubby "Hey Manuel, the scene is quite confused right now about your promo of the SteelSeries Shift keyboard. I don't think this was intentionally but it would be awesome to hear your thoughts on this. The thread on TL does have already 34 pages. Just wanted to let you know in case you have not yet seen it. -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231856" Grubby "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." Please stop throwing shit on him. Of course the keyboard is legal. The macros they present in that video however are not. I agree that Grubby isn't the main bad guy here, but Steelseries should have shit in plentyfull quantities thrown at them for this retarded guide that will get you banned if it's ever detected in any sort of online play. And all play besides the campaign is played online afaik. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
Edit: sorry if it's been mentioned, I'm not about to look through 40 pages to confirm. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On June 10 2011 09:36 obsKura wrote: Update from Grubby's Fanpage on Facebook. He replied to a post on his Wall concerning this issue: https://www.facebook.com/FollowGrubby "Hey Manuel, the scene is quite confused right now about your promo of the SteelSeries Shift keyboard. I don't think this was intentionally but it would be awesome to hear your thoughts on this. The thread on TL does have already 34 pages. Just wanted to let you know in case you have not yet seen it. -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231856" Grubby "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." Please stop throwing shit on him. We all agree that the keyboard is legal within the first 5 pages of this thread. However, the vid on Youtube is actually more about telling people about how awesome macros are, that is what makes it kind of disgusting. Grubby is not to blame here, but he needs to react to this a little bit more cautious than he does now. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On June 10 2011 10:38 Ryder. wrote: I know Grubby himself doesn't wish to promote cheating, he is just doing it to be paid. But isnt this analogous to a high profile sporting figure endorsing the use of steroids/illegal supplements? How is it not the same? Edit: sorry if it's been mentioned, I'm not about to look through 40 pages to confirm. It's somewhere between that and a swimmer advertising a swimsuit that isn't allowed in official competitions. First off, Steroids have a direct effect on your health and should never be taken if your doctor didn't proscribe it. So that's not really a fair comparision. Secondly, no one knows if Grubby knows that this isn't allowed on ladder. Just look in this thread, there are a lot of people that didn't knew and even a few who still don't believe it. | ||
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taLbuk
Madagascar1879 Posts
Almost every logitech/razer/steelseries keyboard has programmable macro keys etc, just kind of confused, I beleive it was Jinro and maybe TLO who when they got sponsored by Razer said they use the Blackwidow, the Blackwidow is also capable of binding macros that produce more than one action per press, so does this make them bad guys too? | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 10:02 Badfatpanda wrote: /sarcasm. sry I really only skimmed the first 10, but there is really no other implication for having macros on a Blizzard marketed SC2 product other than "hey we support this keyboard for this game". Oh whoops our TOS don't support macros...mixed messages ftw =D. So ya, Blizzard "explicitly encourage you to use macro..." to anyone who can put macros + keyboard for SC2 together. So no, even though there is not a public video advertisement of it, I am not disproven of anything. The people in this thread bashing Grubby for following the wishes of his sponsor should really direct their attention towards Steelseries instead if they must be angry at someone. All I was trying to say. It was already posted 3 seperate times on the first 10 pages, the first of them being on page 3. And i only checked for that exact link you provided. I think the razor one was also mentioned at least one time. And in my opinion, people should be responsible for what they promote. Obviously, SS has it pretty bad in this one, too. I really wonder if noone came up to them and told them "Hey guys, i don't think this is really a good idea" | ||
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
On June 10 2011 09:36 obsKura wrote: Update from Grubby's Fanpage on Facebook. He replied to a post on his Wall concerning this issue: https://www.facebook.com/FollowGrubby "Hey Manuel, the scene is quite confused right now about your promo of the SteelSeries Shift keyboard. I don't think this was intentionally but it would be awesome to hear your thoughts on this. The thread on TL does have already 34 pages. Just wanted to let you know in case you have not yet seen it. -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231856" Grubby "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." Please stop throwing shit on him. This should definitely be added to the OP. | ||
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Eddog
United States142 Posts
I feel that is what Grubby was talking about in that statement regarding SteelSeries and checking with Blizzard. That the keyboard is perfectly fine and legal to use. There was no mention about the software though. Really why would Blizzard , in an RTS game, allow that kind of program to be run or allow macros? | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
On June 10 2011 11:17 Eddog wrote: As 1000 people have said and I guess I will be 1,001. The Keyboard itself is perfectly fine and legal in terms of the ToS. However the software and video detailing how you can bind multiple key strokes into one is not. I feel that is what Grubby was talking about in that statement regarding SteelSeries and checking with Blizzard. That the keyboard is perfectly fine and legal to use. There was no mention about the software though. Really why would Blizzard , in an RTS game, allow that kind of program to be run or allow macros? I'm in the impression that SteelSeries asked Blizzard about the whole promo campaign and not only if they were allowed to use macro in their keyboards -_- | ||
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Eddog
United States142 Posts
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On June 10 2011 10:58 taLbuk wrote: Are people mainly upset about the fact that they are presenting the fact that it is possible? or the fact it exists? Almost every logitech/razer/steelseries keyboard has programmable macro keys etc, just kind of confused, I beleive it was Jinro and maybe TLO who when they got sponsored by Razer said they use the Blackwidow, the Blackwidow is also capable of binding macros that produce more than one action per press, so does this make them bad guys too? If Jinro and TLO put out a video showing how to use that product to violate the TOS, then yes, there would be a problem. Simply stating they use a particular keyboard is fine. Had Grubby simply said he uses this keyboard, or even pointed out how macros can be used for other purposes outside of Starcraft 2, that would be fine as well. But demonstrating several ways to violate the rules of the game is not ok. | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
Grubby never said anything like "Go on ladder and use it!" technicalities guys. It's perfectly ok to use macros in single player | ||
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
On June 10 2011 11:44 pbjsandwich wrote: this thread should be closed Grubby never said anything like "Go on ladder and use it!" technicalities guys. It's perfectly ok to use macros in single player When Grubby explains how to use macros on warpgates he was obviously refering to the single player missions we'll se in the third expansion set | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
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Carkis
Canada302 Posts
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:05 pbjsandwich wrote: hey he could be appealing to people who like playinga gaisnt computers too hey he could be appealing to people who like laddering too Where is your point dude ???? | ||
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ihavetofartosis
1277 Posts
"It is not illegal of course." Except it is. As stated in the Starcraft 2 Terms of Service, and by Blizzard employees: | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:06 Diks wrote: hey he could be appealing to people who like laddering too Where is your point dude ???? what is the point of this topic? Why is it 30 pages when he never said "go break the TOS, go use this on ladder" So if he never promotes it for using it on ladder then he's not promoting the use of it on ladder | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
Ladder =/= competitive scene Pros don't use ladder for productive practice. Why are you all acting like it's some kind of holy ground for competition? | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
What's better for esports? Some people using a macro keyboard on ladder or a company that supports SC2 heavily getting higher sales and supporting SC2 even more? | ||
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
And if Blizzard allows macros, then I will shit on them and get the fuck out of SC2. EDIT: pbjsandwich, use the edit button instead of spamming the thread. | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:16 Termit wrote: Till Blizzard themself says in a official statement that macro keys on "Starcraft 2"-keyboards and other keyboards with macros are allowed (something they shouldn't have to do) I will shit on every keyboard with macros that gets advertised like this, and I will shit on everyone who use them macros. And if Blizzard allows macros, then I will shit on them and get the fuck out of SC2. EDIT: pbjsandwich, use the edit button instead of spamming the thread. Don't tell me how to post | ||
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
Oh wait, that's not possible. It's blatantly cheating. | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:20 Angry_Fetus wrote: I'm surprised at the amount of apologists in this thread. The video very directly implies that these macros are to be used in normal ladder games, trying to argue that he is advertising to use in single player against computers is grasping at straws. What purpose would learning to use a macro key, and implementing it into your play solely to be used against computers serve? Let's hear some intelligent arguements. Oh wait, that's not possible. It's blatantly cheating. the video implies grubby is a god because of the white background and the glow around him too | ||
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daffodil
Australia109 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:14 pbjsandwich wrote: people need to get that Ladder =/= competitive scene Pros don't use ladder for productive practice. Why are you all acting like it's some kind of holy ground for competition? GSL "code:B" is korean ladder top200. top200 KOTH all online tournaments are subject to the same macro scrutiny as a ladder game. basically what you're saying is, because people won't be able to use complex macros for LAN tournaments, this has no bearing on a competitive scene? you are the definition of idiocy User was warned for this post | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
I could totally understand if you guys were arguing about this in REAL competition that means something but it doesn't and you guys are just vilifying 2 bodies that are apart of the esports scene's growth This is what's getting me ITT | ||
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:31 Angry_Fetus wrote: How does it being ladder, and your characterization of that as non-competitive, have any bearing on the severity of abusing macros? Should a fairly casual masters (or any league for that matter) player have to play against someone abusing macros? Should they just suck it up and not care that they aren't on a level playing field? Honestly? You won't even know they're using it unless they tell you. Do you not agree that everyone ITT is vilifying 2 people that are helping esports? | ||
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daffodil
Australia109 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:27 pbjsandwich wrote: yeah there's totally 10,000 viewers going to watch a stream of the top200 KOTH or GSL Code B I could totally understand if you guys were arguing about this in REAL competition that means something but it doesn't and you guys are just vilifying 2 bodies that are apart of the esports scene's growth This is what's getting me ITT where do you think the winners of code b end up? and how many people do you think are watching that? you neglected to acknowledge all online tournaments being perfectly suited to some kind of macro abuse | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:34 ceciljacobs wrote: where do you think the winners of code b end up? and how many people do you think are watching that? you neglected to acknowledge all online tournaments being perfectly suited to some kind of macro abuse That's a hypothetical situation. We can argue hypothetical situations all day man. Actually you all have ITT Macros have been around forever if someone wanted to use a macro to cheat then they could've without the help of that keyboard it's up to the tourny admins to stop that | ||
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MenSol[ZerO]
Canada1134 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:11 ihavetofartosis wrote: Wrong "It is not illegal of course." Except it is. As stated in the Starcraft 2 Terms of Service, and by Blizzard employees: I really don't see how people can support this when its completely illegal to bound +2 actions to 1 keystroke, yea you can use the keyboard and blizzard may support it but it does not support the macro feature. its cheating plain and simple | ||
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ThE_OsToJiY
Canada1167 Posts
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daffodil
Australia109 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:36 pbjsandwich wrote: That's a hypothetical situation. We can argue hypothetical situations all day man. Actually you all have ITT Macros have been around forever if someone wanted to use a macro to cheat then they could've without the help of that keyboard it's up to the tourny admins to stop that and how is a $100 tournament admin going to stop macro abuse? seriously, answer that question. the point isn't that macros should be removed from existence, it's that the direct promotion of macros by two prominent figures in the community is detrimental to competition. I don't see how you can argue around that. p.s this whole thread is hypothetical. the idea is to explore hypotheticals before they occur so we can determine a path of action | ||
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:36 pbjsandwich wrote: Macros have been around forever if someone wanted to use a macro to cheat then they could've without the help of that keyboard Stop posting the same weak arguements. This has already been addressed mutliple times in this thread. Read: On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote: I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people. Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games. Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility. Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games. Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use. Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned. Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable. Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:41 ceciljacobs wrote: and how is a $100 tournament admin going to stop macro abuse? seriously, answer that question. the point isn't that macros should be removed from existence, it's that the direct promotion of macros by two prominent figures in the community is detrimental to competition. I don't see how you can argue around that. p.s this whole thread is hypothetical. the idea is to explore hypotheticals before they occur so we can determine a path of action too bad it's at the expense of a company that supports esports heavily and a player that has a lot of weight in the scene | ||
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Veritassong
Canada393 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:39 ThE_OsToJiY wrote: how else can wc3 players macro? wc3 needs macro? | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:46 Angry_Fetus wrote: Stop posting the same weak arguements. This has already been addressed mutliple times in this thread. Read: let's not kid ourselves and think all of our arguments are perfect Of course macro keyboards should not be used. But is it really that big of an issue? This community loves to make a big stink of things at the expense of other people. Saying "grubby promotes macro cheating" is fucking harsh and doesn't help anyone | ||
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justinpal
United States3810 Posts
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ThE_OsToJiY
Canada1167 Posts
no hence cheating when playing starcraft to even the playing field | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:38 haxard wrote: I really don't see how people can support this when its completely illegal to bound +2 actions to 1 keystroke, yea you can use the keyboard and blizzard may support it but it does not support the macro feature. its cheating plain and simple How would you feel if I built my own keyboard that physically has multiple switches under a single key? | ||
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:56 Zeke50100 wrote: How would you feel if I built my own keyboard that physically has multiple switches under a single key? How is this absurd hypothetical at all relevant? Stop trolling. | ||
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CheeC[h]
United States137 Posts
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:27 pbjsandwich wrote: yeah there's totally 10,000 viewers going to watch a stream of the top200 KOTH or GSL Code B I could totally understand if you guys were arguing about this in REAL competition that means something but it doesn't and you guys are just vilifying 2 bodies that are apart of the esports scene's growth This is what's getting me ITT I understand you're angry but the "those aren't real tournaments" argument is just a diversion. It's just promoting double standards/double rules. And just because they are glorified figures in e-sports doesn't mean people should turn a blind eye. Let people speak. By spewing silly arguments in defense you are just making them side more heavily against Grubby and steelseries. | ||
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InvalidID
United States1050 Posts
Grubby is just doing his job as a sponsored e-sports competitor for a major esports company(Steelseries). Steelseries clearly made this product to compete with Razors officially sponsored products that have the same functionality. If Blizzard was truly being staunch with their prohibition of macroing, they would not allow their official Starcraft 2 keyboard to be a macro keyboard, even if such features are not allowed. In order to solve this issue, Blizzard needs to switch to a new official keyboard that is not a macro keyboard. This is the only way they can be fair to the industry. | ||
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Helixpython
United States14 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:38 haxard wrote: I really don't see how people can support this when its completely illegal to bound +2 actions to 1 keystroke, yea you can use the keyboard and blizzard may support it but it does not support the macro feature. its cheating plain and simple I really don't think illegal is the appropriate term to use in this scenario. | ||
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edc
United States666 Posts
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:04 W2 wrote: I understand you're angry but the "those aren't real tournaments" argument is just a diversion. It's just promoting double standards/double rules. And just because they are glorified figures in e-sports doesn't mean people should turn a blind eye. Let people speak. By spewing silly arguments in defense you are just making them side more heavily against Grubby and steelseries. it's not a silly argument though people need to have a bigger view of esports Sorry but it really does not matter if a person uses a macro keyboard in a 100 dollar weekend tourny It really matter that the steelseries commercial has a ton of Dislikes and a ton of hate in their comments That really really matters | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15721 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:12 pbjsandwich wrote: it's not a silly argument though people need to have a bigger view of esports Sorry but it really does not matter if a person uses a macro keyboard in a 100 dollar weekend tourny It really matter that the steelseries commercial has a ton of Dislikes and a ton of hate in their comments That really really matters All you're saying is "It doesn't matter". You're not saying why it doesn't matter. Many people have said why they think it matters. Reasons such as: The standard of competitive play, as dictated by Blizzard and every tournament out there, is that 1 key stroke needs to mean 1 action. By entering in a tournament, you agree to their rules. By laddering, you agree to their rules. Choosing to disregard them is selfish and a disrespect to both your opponent and the competition. All you are saying is that for whatever reason, you are not bothered by it. But here's the thing: You represent yourself, not the community, and certainly not Blizzard or any tournament organizers. This has already been decided a long time ago. This isn't a new issue and nothing has changed. On June 10 2011 13:16 L3g3nd_ wrote: Macro keyboards are allowed on Bnet, but not at tournaments. And its not as if grubby is saying Hey i use this you should too! he is spnosored by Steel sereis, so as part of that he has to do ads for them etc Blizzard TOS clearly state that 1 key = 1 action. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:11 edc.initiative wrote: Playing with this keyboard is pure cheating. What the hell was SteelSeries thinking when they were advertising this? And how come Grubby wasn't aware of the fact that he was supporting such a product? Or was he? SteelSeries probably wasn't aware of the rule or they wouldn't have done the ad, and they sponsor Grubby, and Grubby is doing an ad for them for money, and progamers like money. | ||
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:12 pbjsandwich wrote: it's not a silly argument though people need to have a bigger view of esports Sorry but it really does not matter if a person uses a macro keyboard in a 100 dollar weekend tourny It really matter that the steelseries commercial has a ton of Dislikes and a ton of hate in their comments That really really matters That's entirely your opinion that the use of macro keys in small tournies doesn't matter. You make it sound like a supported fact. Most of us aren't zealous fanboys of gaming peripheral companies, and will call them out on advertising their products as a means to gain an unfair advantage in a multiplayer game. They aren't immune to criticism solely because they inject cash into the esports scene. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:06 Helixpython wrote: I really don't think illegal is the appropriate term to use in this scenario. PLease not again. We had this some pages back, and it appears in every single thread about any bannable offense in any game. It also is completely pointless every single time. | ||
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Exarl25
1887 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:12 pbjsandwich wrote: it's not a silly argument though people need to have a bigger view of esports Sorry but it really does not matter if a person uses a macro keyboard in a 100 dollar weekend tourny It really matter that the steelseries commercial has a ton of Dislikes and a ton of hate in their comments That really really matters No matter how you try to justify it, whether it's in a random Bronze league ladder match or a $50,000 tournament, cheating is still cheating. If you think that using 3rd party software to give yourself an advantage over your opponent is acceptable on any level then I don't think you belong in this community. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:12 pbjsandwich wrote: it's not a silly argument though people need to have a bigger view of esports Sorry but it really does not matter if a person uses a macro keyboard in a 100 dollar weekend tourny It really matter that the steelseries commercial has a ton of Dislikes and a ton of hate in their comments That really really matters Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not... Dislikes and youtube hate comments? Oh my goodness, I think steelseries should consider filing for bankruptcy. | ||
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ihavetofartosis
1277 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:32 pbjsandwich wrote: Honestly? You won't even know they're using it unless they tell you. Do you not agree that everyone ITT is vilifying 2 people that are helping esports? You are the kind of person that ruin these threads and make it horrible to read. You are just spam-posting an irrelevant opinion. Your posts account for 25% of the posts on the last page. Stop ruining the thread. | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
can you argue against that? The small tournies get small time numbers They're not going to effect the scene as much as the big tournies or big names and is this thread criticism or unnecessary backlash for a mistake in marketing? | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
ok I wasn't trying to cause such a stir in this thread But I hope you guys realize that this thread is doing more bad than it is good. I never said that it isn;t cheating. Of course it's cheating but in the grand scheme of what SC2 is trying to become this thread and the backlash coming from this thread hurts it. I'm not gonna act like "Oh no! it's the end of SC2!" but saying shit like "I'm neber gonna buy steelseries again" or "grubby promotes cheating" isn't helping anybody | ||
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
And stop double/triple/quad posting. There is an edit button for a reason. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:12 pbjsandwich wrote: it's not a silly argument though people need to have a bigger view of esports Sorry but it really does not matter if a person uses a macro keyboard in a 100 dollar weekend tourny It really matter that the steelseries commercial has a ton of Dislikes and a ton of hate in their comments That really really matters lol tell me why it doesnt matter if a person uses a macro keyboard in a $100 weekend tourney? tell me why and please make it good cuz you look foolish with such statements | ||
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pbjsandwich
United States443 Posts
))) | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:31 pbjsandwich wrote: oh man ok I wasn't trying to cause such a stir in this thread But I hope you guys realize that this thread is doing more bad than it is good. I never said that it isn;t cheating. Of course it's cheating but in the grand scheme of what SC2 is trying to become this thread and the backlash coming from this thread hurts it. I'm not gonna act like "Oh no! it's the end of SC2!" but saying shit like "I'm neber gonna buy steelseries again" or "grubby promotes cheating" isn't helping anybody Sure is since you joined it. Your trolling isn't helping this thread or anyone. All you've done is blame the community for telling something to Steel Series they should've already knew if they were in touch with the community. | ||
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FordQuality
Canada17 Posts
Consistantly patching to balance a game so players can win based on skill and then allowing people who can afford hardware to give them an edge is contradictory. The point people are trying to make is that the Starcraft community want players to be on an even footing so that skill and strategy win people games rather then buying hardware or downloading software, and i completely agree . | ||
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
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Angry_Fetus
Canada444 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:41 pbjsandwich wrote: Naw I'll post how I want. Go fuckyourself I'm done with this thread )))Thanks for this intelligent and mature contribution to this thread. We really value your presence on TL. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:28 pbjsandwich wrote: You guys say that it's my opinion that these small tournies don't matter but I stated why they don't matter can you argue against that? The small tournies get small time numbers They're not going to effect the scene as much as the big tournies or big names and is this thread criticism or unnecessary backlash for a mistake in marketing? Well, but in total a lot more people are involved in small tournaments and league play than in big tournaments. So if you look at numbers, they actually do matter. And that even counts all the people who watch that big tournament. Do only the top-notch players deserve a fair competetive enviroment? I, and i think a lot of other people, want a level playing field where we know that if we play against something, it is a battle of our skills, and not a battle of gear and software. I do not only want that for high-stakes tournaments, but also when i play a simple game on ladder. Following your argument, all but the top leagues of any sports should also not care about people cheating, because it is not about the top competition for that sport. I don't think it is necessary to eleborate why that is a silly idea. And it is exactly as silly when you use it on Starcraft. | ||
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visioneye
United States4 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 14:00 visioneye wrote: Taken from Grubbys facebook page. "It being a StarCraft 2 branded keyboard, SteelSeries has checked with Blizzard before producing the Shift. It is not illegal of course." there ya have it. Posted already, and no, there we have nothing. That is a rubber statement. It COULD mean that blizzard told SS that using macros in SC2 is OK. But it could also mean that Blizzard told SS that nothing is inheretly wrong with that keyboard, which is true because a lot of other macro keyboards are used in SC2 too. It does not directly say that blizzard told them that using macros in the way they promote is something that blizzard condones. I don't think anyone was argueing that Macrokeyboards per se are bad. People were argueing that using macros to have an unfair advantage in games is bad. Which can mostly be narrowed down to using macros that automate more than one action, which also seems to be the position blizzard took so far. I don't think they have made a full turnaround on that one, so my personal interpretation of that 2-3times hearsay piece of information is that probably the second way to read it is nearer to the truth then the first way. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44708 Posts
On June 10 2011 04:16 VIB wrote: Semantics nazis will jump on you for saying that. On June 10 2011 04:29 kedinik wrote: An action isn't illegal unless you are breaking a law. That's literally the only time it makes any sense to use the word. I understand that you're upset at Grubby and want to make this seem more severe and serious than it really is. *Ahem* "Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation (such as a game)." ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal ": not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also: not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)" ~http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal "• Prohibited by law. • Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. • Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation" ~http://www.answers.com/topic/illegal Problem? Macros are illegal since they're against the rules. I love when people try to act smart but are too lazy to even use Google or a dictionary -.-' | ||
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striderxxx
Canada443 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
On June 10 2011 14:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: *Ahem* "Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation (such as a game)." ~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal ": not according to or authorized by law : unlawful, illicit; also: not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)" ~http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal "• Prohibited by law. • Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. • Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation" ~http://www.answers.com/topic/illegal Problem? Macros are illegal since they're against the rules. I love when people try to act smart but are too lazy to even use Google or a dictionary -.-' The (secondary) definition doesn't fit this situation; even less than the primary definition. "Breaking the rules of the game" would be more like hacking, where you're performing actions that are "illegal" to the rules of an SC2 melee match. Seeing through the fog of war, warping in immortals, etc. Whereas using macros is more like taking certain steroids; a dick move, frowned upon, can get you in trouble off the field (with Blizzard's ToS instead of MLB's drug policy), but not illegal in any correct sense of the word. You're not breaking any laws or in-game mechanics. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On June 10 2011 00:09 RmpL wrote: How is using simple keyboard macros cheating? To answer to your post: Its totally fine in my opinion, what is not fine here is the Thread title .. but thats just my opinion. Grubby is not the one to blame here. well grubby push something blizzard said is illegal, macros on keyboards user will get banned blizzard said several times | ||
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Alabasern
United States4005 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:05 InvalidID wrote: This thread should read "Blizzard implicitly promotes macro cheating." Grubby is just doing his job as a sponsored e-sports competitor for a major esports company(Steelseries). Steelseries clearly made this product to compete with Razors officially sponsored products that have the same functionality. If Blizzard was truly being staunch with their prohibition of macroing, they would not allow their official Starcraft 2 keyboard to be a macro keyboard, even if such features are not allowed. In order to solve this issue, Blizzard needs to switch to a new official keyboard that is not a macro keyboard. This is the only way they can be fair to the industry. Why is everyone bringing this argument? The "official SC2 Keyboard" has macros because most people play more than just SC2 and a lot of games allow macros, so if they wouldn't include macros it would end in less sales for them. Every modern gaming keyboard and mouse has macros, it would be stupid to say "nah, because we have one of the few games that doesn't allow macros we cannot include the standard features". You can use Macros as much as you want in Singleplayer, Counterstrike, Quake or whatever other non-multiplayer-RTS you play, but macros in SC2 multiplayer are simply forbidden and hopefully get those that use them banned. | ||
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mistax
United States415 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11560 Posts
On June 10 2011 14:33 mistax wrote: its perfectly legal in wow. No, it isn't. WoW has the exact same policy towards macro keyboards as SC2. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44708 Posts
On June 10 2011 14:22 kedinik wrote: The (secondary) definition doesn't fit this situation; even less than the primary definition. "Breaking the rules of the game" would be more like hacking, where you're performing actions that are "illegal" to the rules of an SC2 melee match. Seeing through the fog of war, warping in immortals, etc. Whereas using macros is more like taking certain steroids; a dick move, frowned upon, can get you in trouble off the field (with Blizzard's ToS instead of MLB's drug policy), but not illegal in any correct sense of the word. You're not breaking any laws or in-game mechanics. Using software that gives you an unfair advantage. You just said it yourself. Well done. Not to mention the fact that it explicitly breaks the ToS rules. There's really no way to weasel your way out of it. And steroids are illegal too -.-' So you fail twice as hard. "Yes, it is illegal to use steroids without a valid prescription or to distribute them. Steroids are Schedule III substances under the Controlled Substances Act. Schedule III drugs, which have a legitimate medical function, may lead to moderate to low physical dependence or high psychological dependence." ~http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs5/5448/index.htm Just diggin yourself a bigger hole But I think the point has been established by enough people in this thread already (that macros are illegal), so have a good night. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
Dear gaming gear companies, if you really want to appeal to SC2/RTS players, make affordable awesome mechanical keyboards (and not only with MX blacks) that are plug'n'play. That's enough. | ||
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TheImmortal
Hong Kong84 Posts
On June 10 2011 14:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Using software that gives you an unfair advantage. You just said it yourself. Well done. Not to mention the fact that it explicitly breaks the ToS rules. There's really no way to weasel your way out of it. And steroids are illegal too -.-' So you fail twice as hard. "Yes, it is illegal to use steroids without a valid prescription or to distribute them. Steroids are Schedule III substances under the Controlled Substances Act. Schedule III drugs, which have a legitimate medical function, may lead to moderate to low physical dependence or high psychological dependence." ~http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs5/5448/index.htm Just diggin yourself a bigger hole But I think the point has been established by enough people in this thread already (that macros are illegal), so have a good night. Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have. if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On June 10 2011 15:02 SinCitta wrote: I hope all the tumult raises awareness of product designers that the ESPORTS community doesn't want to have macro keyboards. Somehow they all come to the conclusion that SC2 players are in dire need of this fluff. It can't be conincidence that SteelSeries advertises this feature with Grubby, Razer advertises this feature with its flagship SC2 keyboard and Roccat advertises this with Take in Homestory Cup 2. Dear gaming gear companies, if you really want to appeal to SC2/RTS players, make affordable awesome mechanical keyboards (and not only with MX blacks) that are plug'n'play. That's enough. As i said above, about 99% of SC2 players don't play it exclusively and about 90% of those play games that allow macros, so a keyboard without macro functions won't be sold as much as one with that feature. Also, macro functionality actually doesn't cost that much in production if you consider that you can increase the price just by having the feature. Of course it's still stupid to advertise this with SC2 pros, but that is another matter. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On June 10 2011 15:14 TheImmortal wrote: Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have. if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field. http://www.justice.gov/dea/concern/steroids.html#1 no I'm sorry but steroids ARE illegal in the US. They are not just against contract in pro sports leagues, they are illegal. Also as many have said about this subject, while keyboards capable of macros are perfectly fine with blizzard, using macros that simulate more than 1 key press on b.net is bannable. | ||
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
Pretty dumb of steelseries to promote macros in a game in which it is forbidden. Dissapointed in grubby as well I must say. | ||
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Orangu
Canada198 Posts
On June 10 2011 15:14 TheImmortal wrote: Steriods are NOT illegal. illegal means it is against the state, against statute, against common law. it is only a breach of contract under something like a rules of conduct thing they might have. if it is illegal, you will mostly get prosecuted by the state. it usually refers to criminal law. at least this is the usual use in the legal field. i work in the legal field. lol im sorry but steroids aren't illegal in hong kong/china?!! wtf?! | ||
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TheImmortal
Hong Kong84 Posts
On June 10 2011 15:35 hunts wrote: http://www.justice.gov/dea/concern/steroids.html#1 no I'm sorry but steroids ARE illegal in the US. They are not just against contract in pro sports leagues, they are illegal. Also as many have said about this subject, while keyboards capable of macros are perfectly fine with blizzard, using macros that simulate more than 1 key press on b.net is bannable. okay, guess this might be the case. steroids are in the regulated drugs list. but saying that using macros in starcraft is illegal is definitely wrong. regardless of jurisdiction. | ||
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
On June 10 2011 15:44 TangJuice wrote: lol im sorry but steroids aren't illegal in hong kong/china?!! wtf?! Wat? He says they aren't illegal and you say they aren't illegal. I'm confused :o? Grubby has a contract with Steelseries, and part of his contract is most likely to aid in the promotion of Steelseries products with his persona via direct advertisement and by using their gear. Don't see how it is his fault that he is explaining how to use their products to their full potential. It's kind of his job to do it. I don't know why people are "disappointed in grubby", when all he is doing is fulfilling his contractual obligations to his sponsor. | ||
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TheImmortal
Hong Kong84 Posts
On June 10 2011 15:44 TangJuice wrote: lol im sorry but steroids aren't illegal in hong kong/china?!! wtf?! you won't be put in jail if you take steroids, if that's what you mean. yes, it is not illegal. | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On June 10 2011 15:45 TheImmortal wrote: okay, guess this might be the case. steroids are in the regulated drugs list. but saying that using macros in starcraft is illegal is definitely wrong. regardless of jurisdiction. I agree with you, with the normal use of the word "legal" or "illegal" you can't say using macros in SC2 is illegal, as there is no law about it. However blizzard has said that it is against their TOS (macros being 1 button that simulates more than 1 key press) and is something they can ban for (I don't know if they have banned for it before) | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
Now, it was pretty easy getting to the ticket system from the SC2 official website. There were a couple of links that took me to the same petitioning queue, shown here: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kiXUb.png) I filled out all the requested info and posed my question. Response was pretty fast, only took about 6 hours I think (I'm being honest, I've had to wait longer for other customer support). Here's the question posed and the official response: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3uVbL.png) Since I didn't want to queue again in what was obviously a sinister trap deployed by Mike Morhaime himself (there isn't even a WoW account attached to my Battle.net account), I decided to believe that their official stance is "macros are fine". Someone else more brave or more foolhardy than myself can feel free to try again. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On June 10 2011 16:07 urashimakt wrote: Alright, so after keeping up with this thread for the first 18 pages or so and becoming genuinely interested in Blizzard's official stance on using macros in StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty I decided to use their new online ticket petitioning system. Now, it was pretty easy getting to the ticket system from the SC2 official website. There were a couple of links that took me to the same petitioning queue, shown here: + Show Spoiler + I filled out all the requested info and posed my question. Response was pretty fast, only took about 6 hours I think (I'm being honest, I've had to wait longer for other customer support). Here's the question posed and the official response: + Show Spoiler + Since I didn't want to queue again in what was obviously a sinister trap deployed by Mike Morhaime himself (there isn't even a WoW account attached to my Battle.net account), I decided to believe that their official stance is "macros are fine". Someone else more brave or more foolhardy than myself can feel free to try again. You are awesome, sir! It's a bit of a gray area. People HAVE been banned from WoW for using macro keys. One instance was this guy that set up a mage macro to cast fireball repeatedly and then drink, then TAB (reselect a new target) and repeat. Very simple. However, he walked away from his keyboard for a minute and a GM whispered him to check if he was a bot. He got banned. >.< It's just too easy to automate a game like WoW because it's so simple at times (grinding mobs). Anyway, macro keys wouldn't be too practical IMO. Grubby/Steelseries are just trying to promote the keyboard macro features. I have macro keys on my keyboard and your production capabilities and needs change too much to have fixed macros for them. | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On June 10 2011 16:11 Ownos wrote: Macro keys is somehow news to people? Cool beans. I'm not certain that you read the thread before replying to it. I'm positive most Teamliquid denizens have heard of macro keys before this point in time. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
Edit: And I still think Grubby/Steelseries ruin their reputation with the commercial. I am not trying to justify anything here; neither the use of macro devices nor the commercial for them. | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On June 10 2011 16:14 grs wrote: Your answer from Blizzard is basically what I said about 30 pages ago. Blizzards stance has always been: Macro with input devices while at your keyboard -> ok; macro while not at your keyboard -> not ok. Edit: And I still think Grubby/Steelseries ruin their reputation with the commercial. I am not trying to justify anything here; neither the use of macro devices nor the commercial for them. Yes, well: On June 10 2011 16:07 urashimakt wrote: Alright, so after keeping up with this thread for the first 18 pages or so and becoming genuinely interested in Blizzard's official stance on using macros in StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty I decided to use their new online ticket petitioning system. Some may see it as a waste of time, but after being unable to look up Blizzard's actual words in this thread or on any of Blizzard's sites, I decided to track it down and provide it to others who'd like to see it. I didn't mean to offend you by acting as though I didn't believe you. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On June 10 2011 16:19 urashimakt wrote: Yes, well: Some may see it as a waste of time, but after being unable to look up Blizzard's actual words in this thread or on any of Blizzard's sites, I decided to track it down and provide it to others who'd like to see it. I didn't mean to offend you by acting as though I didn't believe you. Sorry, I did not mean it as buthurt as it probably sounded. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On June 10 2011 16:13 urashimakt wrote: I'm not certain that you read the thread before replying to it. I'm positive most Teamliquid denizens have heard of macro keys before this point in time. Doesn't look like it to me. lol | ||
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Ghecko
Romania12 Posts
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W2
United States1177 Posts
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Cinim
Denmark866 Posts
I'm almost 100% sure that grubby would never use this at any time, because he isn't allowed to use them at tournaments anyway. This is like, WoW, with the addons, which is things you can have in mostly any game | ||
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TBO
Germany1350 Posts
On June 10 2011 16:31 Cinim wrote: This doesn't count as cheating, anything saying so, is stupid. Blizzard has in ALL of their games allowed software etc. to help simplify things, for the casual, things which is however which is not allowed in tournament useage. I'm almost 100% sure that grubby would never use this at any time, because he isn't allowed to use them at tournaments anyway. This is like, WoW, with the addons, which is things you can have in mostly any game The problem a policy saying that it is okay to use it on ladder is that it will become widespread in small online tournaments (obviously not by the very top as the opportunity cost of learning something you can't use at LAN is higher than the expected profit gained by using macros) and to catch those macros will be a lot of work for the tournament admins to ensure the integrity of their competition. A general "no macros (2+ actions with 1 key press) are allowed and you get banned if you use them" policy by Blizzard would be lot stronger deterrent to not use them than the potential bust by admins of a online tournament. | ||
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thecoupe
United States77 Posts
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
On June 10 2011 16:35 TBO wrote: The problem a policy saying that it is okay to use it on ladder is that it will become widespread in small online tournaments (obviously not by the very top as the opportunity cost of learning something you can't use at LAN is higher than the expected profit gained by using macros) and to catch those macros will be a lot of work for the tournament admins to ensure the integrity of their competition. A general "no macros (2+ actions with 1 key press) are allowed and you get banned if you use them" policy by Blizzard would be lot stronger deterrent to not use them than the potential bust by admins of a online tournament. The problem is, that Blizzard can't really enforce such a policy and a policy that is know not to be enforced is just an empty statement. Neither am I good enough at SC2 nor do I have a macro keyboard/mouse myself to really judge how big the advantage actually is, but I can see that it is not about how fast it sends multiple commands to the game; it is that you save "attention time" if you automate actions with macros. After a few minutes you could do more useful actions in the game, than you can possibly do and having a macro do some of them for you, it frees up your attention. On the other hand, I am a bit doubtful that SC2 is static enough to really give you an advantage by using those macros. Let's take the build units and a dropship example: It really seems very artificial to me, because you are not producing marines and marauders for a drop; you produce them anyways. Also you might not have the resources/supply to issue all the commands successfully...and then? Use another macro for the rest? As I said, maybe I am not good enough to actually get it, but for me it seems you would eitehr need too many alternative macros to make it work or adjust your game to the macos working (e.g. "I have to wait for x minerals and y gas before building anything, so my macro works"). All in all it seems more of a hassle really. | ||
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DrakanSilva
Chile932 Posts
Everybody use "third party" (made by others) programs to help you improve your micro/macro. Now you can do it ingame and blizzard is the owner, so even if its made by others it's still "First party" So lol, he in Lan owned and everybody saw him winning thousands of tournaments without ever using anything. | ||
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WhiteGrizzly
United States19 Posts
was put on private atleast. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On June 10 2011 16:57 grs wrote: The problem is, that Blizzard can't really enforce such a policy and a policy that is know not to be enforced is just an empty statement. Neither am I good enough at SC2 nor do I have a macro keyboard/mouse myself to really judge how big the advantage actually is, but I can see that it is not about how fast it sends multiple commands to the game; it is that you save "attention time" if you automate actions with macros. After a few minutes you could do more useful actions in the game, than you can possibly do and having a macro do some of them for you, it frees up your attention. On the other hand, I am a bit doubtful that SC2 is static enough to really give you an advantage by using those macros. Let's take the build units and a dropship example: It really seems very artificial to me, because you are not producing marines and marauders for a drop; you produce them anyways. Also you might not have the resources/supply to issue all the commands successfully...and then? Use another macro for the rest? As I said, maybe I am not good enough to actually get it, but for me it seems you would eitehr need too many alternative macros to make it work or adjust your game to the macos working (e.g. "I have to wait for x minerals and y gas before building anything, so my macro works"). All in all it seems more of a hassle really. A lot of the stuff he showed were either really contrived or not that useful. Anyway, I think it should be noted that MLG does not have any rules against macros. They do have: 5. All Player equipment is subject to approval. To cover their asses however. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
It seemingly redirects to Episode 2 of his old Warcraft III commentaries. Can't complain about that :D | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
Poll: What do you think about using macro's I am against it, they make the game less fun/unfair (46) It is no problem, it makes the game more interesting (8) I have no direct opinion (4) 58 total votes Your vote: What do you think about using macro's (Vote): I am against it, they make the game less fun/unfair | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On June 10 2011 17:55 Deckkie wrote: Reading through this thread, it seems that a lot of people dont mind using macro's in sc2. lol you would be wrong | ||
Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
And dont be too harsh on Grubby for this. Stuff happens, he has done more for ESPORTS than any of us, combined. But it seems people already realized this. | ||
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