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On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard.
Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)"
How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby.
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On June 10 2011 03:13 zul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:59 grs wrote:On June 10 2011 02:56 Simberto wrote:On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote:This is not cheating.Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby. This has been posted like 5 times in this thread, and you need to learn to read carefully what they actually write about that keyboard, and compare it to what you think they mean. Hint: It is not the same. Seriously, they sell a macro keyboard for SC2. And simply because they don't say you should use the macros themselves in SC2 makes it different? I am sorry, it does not. Blizzard has never ever cared for macroing. The only thing they banned people for, is them not sitting in front of the screen while macroing or using third party software interfering with the game data. Also http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169418900 and similar products have been out for ages too. Where is the difference? the problem isn`t the actual product, but the advertisment by one of the biggest Names in eSport. He promotes hardware, that gives you a technical advantage and therefore the fair-game aspect is gone. Grubby stands for a hardworking competitor who won his matches through hard work and talent. With this Advertisement he forces the impression that he uses this "make-stuff-easier-for-me" equipment to beat other players and this sucks. Personally I dont believe he uses macros, but some of his Fans will think so and they will think it is ok to use it to win games. Which is not.
I fully agree he should not have done the commercial neither should Steelseries have. It sheds a bad light on both. I disagree with Blizzard promoting basically the same device wo saying "use macros this keyboard device in SC2" is any better.
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The keyboard doesn't do anything you couldn't do on your own. Heck most of them you can do as easily and as fast and or you could rebind your current keyboard to do roughly the same.
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On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby.
Can we get a source?
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On June 10 2011 03:19 Furycrab wrote:
The keyboard doesn't do anything you couldn't do on your own. Heck most of them you can do as easily and as fast and or you could rebind your current keyboard to do roughly the same.
produce 45 zerglings in 1ms and I will listen.
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On June 10 2011 03:20 Dalguno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote:On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby. Can we get a source?
http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142
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On June 10 2011 03:20 Dalguno wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote:On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby. Can we get a source?
http://steelseries.com/products/games/starcraft-ii/steelseries-zboard-limited-edition-keyset-starcraft-ii
(Praised as a licensed Blizzard Product)
http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142
and the 15 times linked site
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i had bought razer goods before and tried a steelseries mouse mat but now im considering just sticking with razer products. Sorry but making a commercial in which u use grubby as a tool to promote macros in sc2 (which it is banned) is just wrong.
i hope grubby doesn't take any loss in reputation because u have to blame the company using this tactic to sell keyboards.
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On June 10 2011 03:07 Tump wrote:
I really don't see how this is an issue. The keyboard is meant for casual players.
Right! I forgot how much money the casual players spends on peripherals. Obviously by sponsoring an E-sports team, and selling luxury computer goods appeals to casual gaming. Get serious, this isn't madcats selling a rapid trigger.
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On June 10 2011 03:19 Furycrab wrote:
The keyboard doesn't do anything you couldn't do on your own. Heck most of them you can do as easily and as fast and or you could rebind your current keyboard to do roughly the same.
Really? There's no way to do in 1MS what this (or any macro keyboard) can accomplish
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United States22883 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby.
Then Blizzard is at fault as well. That doesn't detract from the fact that Blizzard has been known to ban for macro keys and that SS shouldn't promote them in a competitive game. Even at the bronze level, SC2 is a player versus player competition.
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On June 10 2011 03:15 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games. Yea...right: "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)." - http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142
Now: What you read is, that it makes you better by using macros that press multiple keys at once, and help you win at SC2.
But that is not what is actually written there. What is written there are the following statements:
1. The keyboard has one-touch macros and full customizattion. This will make your gaming better. (Note: Not necessarily in SC2, could also be for example in Baldus Gate, or any other game)
2. The Keyboard is good for SC2 Players who want to immerse themselves into the game and improve their performance and APM. (Not: This keyboard improves your performance and APM in SC2) This means that there is not necessarily any improvement coming from the keyboard, just that it is a good thing if you are the type of person that wants to improve themselves. Basically, a competative gamer.
As with any statement by lawyers or companies, one needs to be extremely careful to actually read what they write, and not what one thinks they mean.
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Well, thats a good way to get banned!
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People are just taking this way to seriously. Looks like a nice keyboard, if people want to use it why do you care? It does not harm your playing experience because of the way ladder works. You will always play people in your skill range. Whether they are in your skill range because of a keyboard seems like a silly thing to grip about, It doesn't affect you playing if you don't use it.
BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway.
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On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby.
Whether or not their product description states this, it does not change the fac tthat it is considered botting to use macros to automate actions for you. Their job is to sell the product they are displaying, why not include this into the description of the keyboard so that it will increase sales? The only sources you should be concerned with is the official ToS.
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I feel sorry for the guy, grubby probably only did this for a quick buck and now hes the one getting alot of stick for it.
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I give steelseries a lot of leeway because of their support for esports, but this really looks bad.
I have no idea how they could interpret Blizzard's ToS as saying "you can use use this macro software for ladder and custom games, but you can't for tournaments". Its clear that the use of this software will give you an unfair macro advantage over your opponent. The keyboard itself is not a problem, but the software is.
I'm also shocked at all the people saying "blame steelseries, not Grubby". Grubby is a highly intelligent guy. He should know better than to publically support cheating in the game he plays professionally. This video will do nothing but hurt his credibility. I've been on the fence about Grubby in SC2, but this turned me into an antifan.
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On June 10 2011 03:16 RBKeys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:02 XsebT wrote:
So you wouldn't mind Grubby promoting map hacking? If we hung off of every word and/or action a progamer said/did then I'm sure the game would be much more "Idra-centric." What Grubby did with endorsing this product holds no credence to the argument I was making. If he wants to endorse something, that's fine, his endorsement has no broad impact (if any) on any governing body in competitive starcraft 2 (I.e., those who run the league). Please keep things in context: "undermining competitive gaming" is the topic I was addressing.
This is the comment you initially replied to:
On June 10 2011 02:18 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:06 Sensator wrote:
It's just a commercial, he gets sponsored and payed by SteelSeries, so he's promoting the product. Are you serious? He's a PRO GAMER, advertising a product that UNDERMINES COMPETITIVE GAMING!
And this whole topic happened because Grubby promoted the usage of macros ingame. I don't feel like I'm the one avoiding the context.
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On June 10 2011 03:27 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:18 Hypertension wrote:On June 10 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote:
I can't believe this needs to be explained further for so many people.
Macro keyboards are acceptable. Macro keys are useful in Windows and other applications, and are even allowed in some other games.
Blizzard supports large keyboard manufacturers, who include these software packages to enable macro keys because of their stated utility.
Blizzard does not support the use of this software, despite promoting the keyboard itself, in their own games.
Razer, Steelseries, Saitek, Logitech and others all make keyboards with macro keys and software packages that are useful for every day use.
Only Steelseries is promoting their usage in SC2, a game in which it is banned.
Grubby is doing the promoting. He is not just selling a keyboard with macro keys, the way Blizzard does on their site. He is not just selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Windows or other programs. He is selling the software package to show how macro keys can be used in Starcraft 2, a game in which they are explicitly banned and punishable.
Go to 1m21s in the video. He is not just selling a keyboard. Quote from the Blizzard site "The gaming experience will enhance drastically due to one-touch macros and the ability to fully customize each key. This Limited Edition Keyset is a valuable tool for StarCraft II players looking to immerse themselves in the game and improve their performance and actions per minute (APM)" How can you read the second sentence as anything but stating that macro's can be used to improve APM in Starcraft II. Obviously to use this in a tournament would be cheating, but Blizzard is just as guilty as Grubby. Then Blizzard is at fault as well. That doesn't detract from the fact that Blizzard has been known to ban for macro keys and that SS shouldn't promote them in a competitive game. Even at the bronze level, SC2 is a player versus player competition. Number of people banned for macros like the ones grubby show in the video, on all history of blizzard:
zero
They cannot detect short macros like this on their end. They'll only ban you for long term bots that rolls for hours.
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On June 10 2011 03:30 Egyptian_Head wrote:
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BTW a macro keyboard doesn't really seem that helpful to me in SC2 anyway.
you`re wrong. reproducing 50 supply in speedlings takes me about 3 seconds pressing down "z". With a macro I could do the same in less than half a second. imagine this kind of stuff adding up during a whole game.
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EPT
