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On May 02 2011 13:43 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 13:24 iNcontroL wrote:
lets play a quick numbers game jinro
na -> kr bad
eu -> kr bad
7 of 8 teams are non KR
ALL DON'T WANT TO PLAY KR
so YES providing accounts makes it possible. YES casting from reps means casters are fine (my bad). OK we got that out of the way!
Now we have the VAST MAJORITY of the players that would 100% rather not play ANY games on KR. Whether it's an equal number or w/e.. it's 100% bad for them.
Does the NA based team EG accommodate it's NA players / EU (NA->EU isn't perfect but is considered fine)? Or does it make the exception at the cost of displacing more players?
I have no idea why TL throws a stink here. GCPL was the same way... everyone was fine with it.
I don't know why you view it from this kind of weird PoV. What TL is asking for is relative fairness towards their team - so that when they play in the league they don't get fucked by latency. I don't see any kind of poll of those teams either. You talk like TL was asking for some unfair advantage or something that would be a serious problem for the other teams. They weren't. They were just asking for relative fairness so they could compete. Don't blame tl for not wanting to participate in a league they would be disadvantaged in, but I do blame EG and the hostility they've shown here.
Honestly, both sides came out showing hostility. So I don't think that's a good thing to thrown in with your blame.
Not every team is going to play in every league. Big prize money or not. Yes, TL has a reason to be upset, but EG has a reason for not doing something. Both are reasonable, yes there is such a thing. Really, the thread needs to calm down about this stuff and just move on. Like with ladder or tournaments, "You win some you lose some. You just gotta continue on."
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On May 02 2011 13:50 StUfF wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 13:48 GoldenGun wrote:
I got a solution. How about Liquid fly back to NA and play? Every sport team does this. Isn't that that the reason you flew to Korea for the GSL? It's a league. Flying 3 people back and forth from Korea 7-10 times for a possible 5 grand. Doesn't sound too exciting does it.
You can only please so many people.
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On May 02 2011 13:47 dtz wrote:
Grrr of course there will be an advantage for Liquid if the rule do pass through. However small, it is an advantage. It means that the teams preparing for Liquid will have to prepare in all 3 servers ( as it has been said various times, you need to play a lot of games to get used to it so if a team want to do well , it's logical for its players to acclamatize on it).
Liquid players only need to train on his home server + NA. Others need to train for KR NA EU. It is small and might or might not make a difference but there is a case to be made that allowing the rule to pass would be unfair to the o ther teams.
Again.
A team like Mouz. Would not have to prepare for "all 3 servers" I beleive all (or most) of the players on Mouz are in Europe.
EU v KR = NA server.
it only effects the NA server players.
EU is already preparing for NA server games. They are obviously ready for EU server games, the concessions TL was asking for would have no negative effect, at all, on any european player.
I will again say Im not whatsoever saying EG is wrong, as I totally believe its in their right to decide the rules since they are running it, organizing it, and putting up the prize pool. And it will be one awesome tourny.
Not to mention I want to see iNcontrol and idra in a 2v2, even though thats just a pipe dream  haha
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2011 13:26 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 13:24 Koshi wrote:On May 02 2011 13:21 Mailing wrote:On May 02 2011 13:18 divito wrote:
Very disappointing all around for EG. Disappointing for liquid* Everyone else is happy with this.. The EU teams probably aren't. But who is going to say anything when you can compete for 5000$ and there is no alternative? I am exciting for these matches. But I do not like the way EG handled this. It's your 3rd post with you pretending EU teams are somehow offended by the lack of server changing. They aren't. They host the black dragon league as well as other cl's that are on the EU server. Nobody makes this insane argument that an EU based clan league needs to have it's players change to the NA server to accommodate the 1/2 NA teams in the league. Please stop!
Black dragon league is an individual league isnt it? Or do they have 2?
Mostly asking because I havent heard of the clan league version and would like to check up on the results, not really for on-topic reasons.
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On May 02 2011 13:40 Jinsho wrote:
So who is IdrA playing 2v2 with? Inka his first room mate to form an unstoppable Zerg/Protoss combo? Or Machine his second room mate for dual 6pool? :D
EG's 2v2 team will be Axslav+StrifeCro. They were one of the top teams in Warcraft 3 and in other team leagues have yet to drop a game as a pair.
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On May 02 2011 13:47 StUfF wrote:
As Chill said.
Team Liquid was INVITED.
Team`Liquid asked for concessions to be made to make the grounds more fair.
EG said no.
Team`Liquid didn't take the invitation.
Stop arguing that they shouldn't have a right to play when they were INVITED.
Who was arguing Liquid doesn't have a right to play? It seems to me the arguing is whether Liquid's concessions would actually make the league fairer in the first place, and whether they should suck it up and play or put their foot down and refuse, as well as how to handle any inevitable re-occurances of this same issue.
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It seems to me like both Liquid and EG were totally reasonable. Liquid has trouble participating without the players in has in Korea, and those players are at a disadvantage without server switching. As a tournament host, though, it's reasonable to say that you don't want to do the server switching. Having one player at a disadvantage each game leads to people making excuses and possibly bad games, etc. EG shouldn't be upset that Liquid isn't participating, since they failed to provide them a level playing field, but that's still a legitimate decision for them to make.
I think at a larger level there might need to be some realization that truly global tournaments aren't possible. We're all used to geographic location not mattering on the internet in general, but in things where microsecond delays matter, it still does. Maybe the unfortunate truth is that tournaments all have to be "local" tournaments, at least to a continent or two. I don't have personal knowledge of how bad the lag is, but maybe the idea that you can hold a global tournament without plane flights is unreasonable.
Maybe in the future we'll have two more GSL-type tournaments, one in the US and one in Europe, and teams will become specific to a continent, with a team house near that tournament, and there can be an annual world championship, etc. Then team leagues can also happen between teams of the same continent, etc. Until then we'll have to muddle through.
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On May 02 2011 13:41 Plexa wrote:
The precedent certainly is that all games are played on NA and recent tournaments like NASL and CGPL have certainly pushed to make this the standard. The precedent stems from the fact that traditionally KR access has been limited and well, the delay between servers is not ideal. There is no incentive outside of Korea to change this precedent since, as inc correctly points out, this affects a minority of players (precisely 3 Liquid players and anyone else inside of Korea).
Liquid have been putting up subpar performances in teamleagues and one of those influencing factors has been the insistence on playing on NA from KR. Indeed, this is a contributing reason to Huk/Jinro not participating in NASL - why bother playing in a tournament you know you can't perform your best in and display games of 'poor' skill and have your image damaged as a result? It makes no sense.
EG. invited liquid was a nice gesture, but realistically liquid had two options
- play in subpar conditions
- take a stand
And this time, they chose the latter. The line had to be drawn somewhere and in this case it was this tournament (and the machinima 2nd invite tour). There's no reason to go parading the liquid flag out only for our players to perform below what is expected of them.
Indeed as we move towards a global esports world where the Korean (and Chinese) scene is an integral part of our expanded community the precedent that NA is the default server needs to change. Else you are effectively locking out those regions from participating to their fullest. While this can't be done in all cases, any major tournament putting up a significant prize pool should be willing to accommodate such requests. The precedent must be changed so that we have a fair competitive environment for all - this will only become more important as more and more non-Western players enter our tournaments.
Perhaps this tournament isn't large enough to justify changing the precedent just yet - but it does highlight that this is an issue that needs to be addressed at a global level. But honestly, EG.'s invite, while appreciated, was never a realistic option for Liquid for the reasons cited. It's unfortunate, they're not trying to take over the world of team leagues - they're just trying to run a tournament. . And thats fine.
So let's just take this tournament for what it is. It's going to be a good team tournament between a few of the better clans around for a decent prize pool. And yeah, there will probably be a lot of good games.
I can see why TL declined the invite, even though for this one instance, it seemed like a bit much over the issue, but in the grand scheme of things, they need to make a stand somewhere.
But, there seems to be an assumption that these organizations aim to be global when, in fact, they have a more regional focus.
EG doesn't really care that much about growing the global scene. A strong focus is on growing the NA scene. Just like how many of the European sponsors put a high emphasis on ESL over otherwise more noteworthy tournaments abroad.
So it does seem rather unreasonable to expect an NA-based event to cater to one team and expand its focus to a more global scene when that wasn't the focus in the first place.
Simply because it's an online event doesn't automatically turn it into a global event.
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pro level 2v2 will be very interesting, cant wait to watch it 
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So much tension going on. I understand that Liquid is (rightfully) upset at not being able to compete in such a huge tournament, and I feel like this tournament should have included them(and thus accomaded them.)
Would what Liquid have wanted applied to every team match, or just when Liquid played? If it was just when LIquid played then I certainly don't agree with EG not accomodating them.
If it also applied to all team matches, then it shouldn't have. While it's too late to do this, since all teams have already been invited and you can't just kick a team out, this is what should have been done.
When players are on same server: play on that server.
When it's NA-EU, switch servers like Liquid said. However, teams have the right, if they both agree, to just play on the same server. But I think for such a large prize pool(10000 dollars holy crud), having fair play is of the utmost importance. Giving each player the chance to play with the best connection is truly the thing that should be done.
For NA-KR, switch servers.
For EU-KR, switch servers.
Keep in mind the above only apply when Liquid plays(as far as I can think of.) For the rest of the teams they don't even have to worry about this except when facing the Liquid players that are in Korea.
Is it inconvienant? A bit, but if it's really that much then the teams don't have to do it. But for gosh sakes its a 10k tournament. The chance, and the honor to play in it means you should be willing to accomade to rules that will benefit the tournament the most. I don't think players will mind a small hassle of switching servers when they're invited to this prestigious tournament.
Will it benefit both of them? Of course it well! This doesn't apply to just Liquid(although in the KR-??? cases it will), it applies to everyone.
Will it benefit the tournament as a whole? Yes, we shall see better games.
Will it make the tournament more legitimite? 100% yes.
Third game Idea
Now here's the Pandain Proposal!
What do we do about the third game? We could flip a coin, but why not make it more exciting.
At the start of that series, both teams shall pick one player to send out in an epic 1v1. The team that wins shall have the (first) third game on their server, then(if another 3rd game arises) the other team's server.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 02 2011 13:26 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 13:24 Koshi wrote:On May 02 2011 13:21 Mailing wrote:On May 02 2011 13:18 divito wrote:
Very disappointing all around for EG. Disappointing for liquid* Everyone else is happy with this.. The EU teams probably aren't. But who is going to say anything when you can compete for 5000$ and there is no alternative? I am exciting for these matches. But I do not like the way EG handled this. It's your 3rd post with you pretending EU teams are somehow offended by the lack of server changing. They aren't. They host the black dragon league as well as other cl's that are on the EU server. Nobody makes this insane argument that an EU based clan league needs to have it's players change to the NA server to accommodate the 1/2 NA teams in the league. Please stop! If you had asked the 4 EU teams if they'd prefer to play on NA only or switch servers, which do you think they'd pick? Of course they've gotten used to it, but given the same choice you would obviously choose to play on switched servers instead of EU only. They are automatically slower to react, which can have significant consequences for pros like yourself. Plus, other tournaments doing it the wrong way doesn't really mean anything. Just say it's an NA-centric decision.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I have no idea what other clan leagues you're talking about. BDL was a 1v1 entirely European tournament. There's SC2CL but that's all EU teams and I don't think they play for much money. There's Crota's league which EG is a part of, with 2 NA and 2 EU teams and honestly, you should advocate for server switching in that. Then GCPL. Maybe the Liquid guys just got tired of lag in the GCPL and decided to only do certain types of tourneys after that.
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-edited-
I have absolutely nothing against TL, but the fact that you think your view of fairness is objectively the best is pretty gross. Sure, switching between servers is optimal when it benefits a good amount of people, but I don't think you can necessarily purport that as the absolute truth in this specific situation; it's easily up for debate.
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The real disappointment for any of us drama fans is that we lose the possibility of a guest commentator Idra commentating while HuK is playing...<3 all around.
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On May 02 2011 13:52 SMD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 13:47 dtz wrote:
Grrr of course there will be an advantage for Liquid if the rule do pass through. However small, it is an advantage. It means that the teams preparing for Liquid will have to prepare in all 3 servers ( as it has been said various times, you need to play a lot of games to get used to it so if a team want to do well , it's logical for its players to acclamatize on it).
Liquid players only need to train on his home server + NA. Others need to train for KR NA EU. It is small and might or might not make a difference but there is a case to be made that allowing the rule to pass would be unfair to the o ther teams. Again. A team like Mouz. Would not have to prepare for "all 3 servers" I beleive all (or most) of the players on Mouz are in Europe. EU v KR = NA server. it only effects the NA server players. EU is already preparing for NA server games. They are obviously ready for EU server games, the concessions TL was asking for would have no negative effect, at all, on any european player. I will again say Im not whatsoever saying EG is wrong, as I totally believe its in their right to decide the rules since they are running it, organizing it, and putting up the prize pool. And it will be one awesome tourny. Not to mention I want to see iNcontrol and idra in a 2v2, even though thats just a pipe dream haha
You are right i stand corrected. The point of the argument still stands though. NA players have to prepare for 3 servers ( NA EU KR) . EU prepare for EU NA. KR for KR NA. But because only TL has players from KR NA EU, they have an advantage ( however small) especially for the ace matches if the rule get passed.. It's kinda bad if the competition becomes "who have more players from more continents all over the world".
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There's a lot of bitching in this thread and it's pretty depressing. EG gets to pick how the tourney is set up. If Liquid doesn't like it, they don't have to play. It's pretty simple.
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks; EG is ponying up the cash so they make the rules. Get the fuck over it.
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On May 02 2011 13:58 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 13:52 SMD wrote:On May 02 2011 13:47 dtz wrote:
Grrr of course there will be an advantage for Liquid if the rule do pass through. However small, it is an advantage. It means that the teams preparing for Liquid will have to prepare in all 3 servers ( as it has been said various times, you need to play a lot of games to get used to it so if a team want to do well , it's logical for its players to acclamatize on it).
Liquid players only need to train on his home server + NA. Others need to train for KR NA EU. It is small and might or might not make a difference but there is a case to be made that allowing the rule to pass would be unfair to the o ther teams. Again. A team like Mouz. Would not have to prepare for "all 3 servers" I beleive all (or most) of the players on Mouz are in Europe. EU v KR = NA server. it only effects the NA server players. EU is already preparing for NA server games. They are obviously ready for EU server games, the concessions TL was asking for would have no negative effect, at all, on any european player. I will again say Im not whatsoever saying EG is wrong, as I totally believe its in their right to decide the rules since they are running it, organizing it, and putting up the prize pool. And it will be one awesome tourny. Not to mention I want to see iNcontrol and idra in a 2v2, even though thats just a pipe dream haha You are right i stand corrected. The point of the argument still stands though. NA players have to prepare for 3 servers ( NA EU KR) . EU prepare for EU NA. KR for KR NA. But because only TL has players from KR NA EU, they have an advantage ( however small) especially for the ace matches if the rule get passed.. It's kinda bad if the competition becomes "who have more players from more continents all over the world".
Ya, it would disadvantage the NA teams in some respect to the 3 servers.
But their could be a compromise in that.
Have team lineups in advance, far in advance, make them stick to schedule or lose. So the players that know they will be player on NA/EU/KR server can practice there, and get used to the lag.
I understand both sides, it just sucks all around lol
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On May 02 2011 13:59 hmunkey wrote:
There's a lot of bitching in this thread and it's pretty depressing. EG gets to pick how the tourney is set up. If Liquid doesn't like it, they don't have to play. It's pretty simple.
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks; EG is ponying up the cash so they make the rules. Get the fuck over it.
Heaven forbid we talk about decisions that stopped team liquid from being involved in a league on the TEAM LIQUID website.
In all honestly it sucks that they couldn't come to some agreement, but Tyler honestly didn't need to rip into EG as an organization in the manner that he did, sure he's frustrated because he doesn't get to play because of stuff outside his control but it's just looks really bad.
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This thread has gotten pretty ridiculous. I really can't believe Jinro / Tyler's posts, I did not expect that. I play on EU all the time and IMO EU vs KR playing on the NA server is as big of an advantage for EU as NA vs KR on the NA server. There is 0 difference playing on EU for me, except every once in a while battle net is super laggy. So TL's idea that NA vs KR play half on KR server and EU vs KR play only on NA is the craziest thing ever. If you wanted to be fair then it would be half EU and half KR. So basically this plan completely screws over NA players, and the host team that is based out of NA obviously is not going to handicap their team like this, and it is pretty nuts to think that they would, and reallllllllllly arrogant to expect them to do this for you. I'm sorry you guys don't like to play on NA in the lag, but that's the price you pay for living in a pro house with a practice schedule and 20 people to talk Starcraft with every day, and practice on the best ladder, and play in the biggest tournament in the world.
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On May 02 2011 13:59 hmunkey wrote:
There's a lot of bitching in this thread and it's pretty depressing. EG gets to pick how the tourney is set up. If Liquid doesn't like it, they don't have to play. It's pretty simple.
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks; EG is ponying up the cash so they make the rules. Get the fuck over it.
And you are posting on the TEAM LIQUID FORUM. If individuals feel like expressing their discontent over something in relation to the tournament in the thread meant to discuss it, than they will express it. EG picks how the tourney is set up, in that regard you are absolutely correct. Everybody else on the internet decides how to respond to it,
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On May 02 2011 13:58 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 13:52 SMD wrote:On May 02 2011 13:47 dtz wrote:
Grrr of course there will be an advantage for Liquid if the rule do pass through. However small, it is an advantage. It means that the teams preparing for Liquid will have to prepare in all 3 servers ( as it has been said various times, you need to play a lot of games to get used to it so if a team want to do well , it's logical for its players to acclamatize on it).
Liquid players only need to train on his home server + NA. Others need to train for KR NA EU. It is small and might or might not make a difference but there is a case to be made that allowing the rule to pass would be unfair to the o ther teams. Again. A team like Mouz. Would not have to prepare for "all 3 servers" I beleive all (or most) of the players on Mouz are in Europe. EU v KR = NA server. it only effects the NA server players. EU is already preparing for NA server games. They are obviously ready for EU server games, the concessions TL was asking for would have no negative effect, at all, on any european player. I will again say Im not whatsoever saying EG is wrong, as I totally believe its in their right to decide the rules since they are running it, organizing it, and putting up the prize pool. And it will be one awesome tourny. Not to mention I want to see iNcontrol and idra in a 2v2, even though thats just a pipe dream haha You are right i stand corrected. The point of the argument still stands though. NA players have to prepare for 3 servers ( NA EU KR) . EU prepare for EU NA. KR for KR NA. But because only TL has players from KR NA EU, they have an advantage ( however small) especially for the ace matches if the rule get passed.. It's kinda bad if the competition becomes "who have more players from more continents all over the world".
But it still better than KR players having a disadvantage no matter what?
Whereas the advantage goes to "who has more players who live in NA?"
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EPT
