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On May 02 2011 13:36 denzelz wrote:
I think this whole situation is hilarous. After every TSL game when a foreign player beats a Korean player, everyone was told not to blame the lag for their victories. People clamored about how the lag didn't really matter if the other player was superior in skill. Now, the entire Liquid team is excluded by this tournament because they have players living in Korea. Great hypocrisy!
The difference is Liquid is just asking for the same treatment that the Koreans got in TSL (Alternating games between servers).
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On May 02 2011 13:36 denzelz wrote:
I think this whole situation is hilarous. After every TSL game when a foreign player beats a Korean player, everyone was told not to blame the lag for their victories. People clamored about how the lag didn't really matter if the other player was superior in skill. Now, the entire Liquid team is excluded by this tournament because they have players living in Korea. Great hypocrisy!
You realise TSL was played on all KR/NA/EU servers alternating between matches?
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So who is IdrA playing 2v2 with? Inka his first room mate to form an unstoppable Zerg/Protoss combo? Or Machine his second room mate for dual 6pool? :D
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People really complain to much about leagues that are forming because player/team X isn't included or in perfect conditions/location.
I am really looking forward to seeing this pan out. Totally wish there were more professional organizations actively involved in stimulating ESports as much as you guys.
It's great to see that this is going on. The more leagues, tournaments, etc. formed the better.
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On May 02 2011 13:38 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 12:50 StUfF wrote:On May 02 2011 12:45 Thermia wrote:On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:On May 02 2011 12:23 Xeris wrote:
I think it's a dangerous assumption, Tyler, to say that the method TSL had is the "best known solution." In a BO3, if you play one game on NA and one game on KR, what happens when the series goes to a 3rd game? Which server do you play on? I believe the TSL's solution to this was "the players with a higher seed," which might work for the TSL's tournament format, but not so much in a clan-war type scenario.
How do you determine 'seeding' in this case? The team with the better record? That seems way too situational to be effective, it's like favoring the team that's already favored, in essence. In all honesty, there is no best solution for this problem until Blizzard implements LAN latency/cross-server play. I will add however, that Sen plays from Taiwan and has never once complained about lag. He played almost all the GCPL matches, NASL, FXOpen tournaments, etc. He doesn't complain about the lag, he plays his game and performs well most of the time. He also plays regularly on the NA ladder.
Maybe, players in Korea should practice on the NA server to get used to the conditions of playing there if they know they will be playing in tournaments on the NA server.
Ultimately, there is no best solution, as I said. There has to be some give. If Liquid is really the only team that would be adversely affected by this rule, then it would be a bit unfair to inconvenience 7 teams to appease 1 team. If Liquid couldn't bend to the requirements, it isn't really fair to turn around and blame the organizers. Notice Tyler didn't say "best" solution but "best known". Can you provide a better known solution? The implementation of this solution in the TSL shows that it can work, and nobody else has come up with anything better. The root of Tyler's frustration I think is because this is his livelihood, it may be entertainment for the watchers but this game is how he makes a living. If you played competitive sports and the competition didn't try their best to provide a "fair" environment I would be pissed off as well. EG chose convenience over fairness. Tyler is frustrated and Team`Liquid have abstained because of this. Except that it's not fair to the other seven teams in the league when they have to all go out of their way to accommodate liquid. As Xeris said, server switching in BoX formats is okay when there are seeds, but in a team league there isn't really a good/fair way to decide who gets server choice in a deciding game, should it come to that. Ergo, if liquid wants to participate in the league, they would have to be inconvenienced (one team, and really only one player as they could field tlo, ret, and tyler from NA/EU who would all be fine) instead of being unfair to the other seven teams. You make it sound like logging onto another server a herculean feat of effort. HINT: Most pros already have access and have played on other servers It would be UNFAIR for KR players to play on overseas server. It would be INCONVENIENT for EU/NA players to alternate servers. There's a huge difference. TL's introduces fairness for convenience, it doesn't disadvantage the EU/NA players in anyway. It's not logging on another server. If the games are live casted, then it introduces a HUGE amount of downtime. If the player uses custom Hotkeys, every game he would have to re-arrange that, since the accounts would be shared. And if Tyler and Idra are to be taken as example, pro-players make a VERY EXTENSIVE customization of Hotkeys, so it could take 5~10 minutes between games and even then the player could make some mistake and have to pause in-game to fix hotkeys. AND, as other people said, would introduce unfairness since Liquid probably trains, and is used to, KR-NA lag, whereas NA and EU players are not used to KR lag.
Again, I believe EG is fair in declining the request, but, lets get what jinro said straight.
KR v EU games would be 100% of NA servers. So an EU player would ahve the same lag playing a NA player as playing a KR player, thus not changing anything for them.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
The precedent certainly is that all games are played on NA and recent tournaments like NASL and CGPL have certainly pushed to make this the standard. The precedent stems from the fact that traditionally KR access has been limited and well, the delay between servers is not ideal. There is no incentive outside of Korea to change this precedent since, as inc correctly points out, this affects a minority of players (precisely 3 Liquid players and anyone else inside of Korea).
Liquid have been putting up subpar performances in teamleagues and one of those influencing factors has been the insistence on playing on NA from KR. Indeed, this is a contributing reason to Huk/Jinro not participating in NASL - why bother playing in a tournament you know you can't perform your best in and display games of 'poor' skill and have your image damaged as a result? It makes no sense.
EG. invited liquid was a nice gesture, but realistically liquid had two options
- play in subpar conditions
- take a stand
And this time, they chose the latter. The line had to be drawn somewhere and in this case it was this tournament (and the machinima 2nd invite tour). There's no reason to go parading the liquid flag out only for our players to perform below what is expected of them.
Indeed as we move towards a global esports world where the Korean (and Chinese) scene is an integral part of our expanded community the precedent that NA is the default server needs to change. Else you are effectively locking out those regions from participating to their fullest. While this can't be done in all cases, any major tournament putting up a significant prize pool should be willing to accommodate such requests. The precedent must be changed so that we have a fair competitive environment for all - this will only become more important as more and more non-Western players enter our tournaments.
Perhaps this tournament isn't large enough to justify changing the precedent just yet - but it does highlight that this is an issue that needs to be addressed at a global level. But honestly, EG.'s invite, while appreciated, was never a realistic option for Liquid for the reasons cited. It's unfortunate, they're not trying to take over the world of team leagues - they're just trying to run a tournament. . And thats fine.
So let's just take this tournament for what it is. It's going to be a good team tournament between a few of the better clans around for a decent prize pool. And yeah, there will probably be a lot of good games.
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On May 02 2011 13:37 Oreo7 wrote:
So silly that EG couldn't accommodate the most popular foreign SC2 team.
If Idra was in KR they would be singing a different tune.
Whats even funnier is that only 4 teams (EG, Root, Fnatic, Sixjax) would have to play on KR server, so really the story about 100% of players disagreeing can't be anywhere near correct.
iNcontroL stepping up his level of general misinformation yet again.
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Not sure how its disappointing that liquid isn't in it. They are in a slump, besides TLO, so they would lose to sixjax anyways. I love liquid but EG is putting on a tournament, shouldn't bash it just because some big teams aren't in it.
Probably a bias opinion in the spoiler so ya.. If you don't like my post don't hit the spoiler :o
+ Show Spoiler +"GSL doesn't have any americans, therefore i hate it." -Seems like the mentality some people are taking in this thread accept "EG isn't inviting team liquid, therefore this tournament will fail."
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On May 02 2011 13:40 Jinsho wrote:
So who is IdrA playing 2v2 with? Inka his first room mate to form an unstoppable Zerg/Protoss combo? Or Machine his second room mate for dual 6pool? :D
Why do you think Idra would do the 2v2? Someone mentioned earlier that Axslav/Strife actually have a fair bit of experience in 2v2 with eachother, in both SC2 and WC3
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On May 02 2011 13:24 iNcontroL wrote:
lets play a quick numbers game jinro
na -> kr bad
eu -> kr bad
7 of 8 teams are non KR
ALL DON'T WANT TO PLAY KR
so YES providing accounts makes it possible. YES casting from reps means casters are fine (my bad). OK we got that out of the way!
Now we have the VAST MAJORITY of the players that would 100% rather not play ANY games on KR. Whether it's an equal number or w/e.. it's 100% bad for them.
Does the NA based team EG accommodate it's NA players / EU (NA->EU isn't perfect but is considered fine)? Or does it make the exception at the cost of displacing more players?
I have no idea why TL throws a stink here. GCPL was the same way... everyone was fine with it.
I don't know why you view it from this kind of weird PoV.
What TL is asking for is relative fairness towards their team - so that when they play in the league they don't get fucked by latency. I don't see any kind of poll of those teams either.
You talk like TL was asking for some unfair advantage or something that would be a serious problem for the other teams. They weren't. They were just asking for relative fairness so they could compete.
Don't blame tl for not wanting to participate in a league they would be disadvantaged in, but I do blame EG and the hostility they've shown here.
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On May 02 2011 13:38 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 12:50 StUfF wrote:On May 02 2011 12:45 Thermia wrote:On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:On May 02 2011 12:23 Xeris wrote:
I think it's a dangerous assumption, Tyler, to say that the method TSL had is the "best known solution." In a BO3, if you play one game on NA and one game on KR, what happens when the series goes to a 3rd game? Which server do you play on? I believe the TSL's solution to this was "the players with a higher seed," which might work for the TSL's tournament format, but not so much in a clan-war type scenario.
How do you determine 'seeding' in this case? The team with the better record? That seems way too situational to be effective, it's like favoring the team that's already favored, in essence. In all honesty, there is no best solution for this problem until Blizzard implements LAN latency/cross-server play. I will add however, that Sen plays from Taiwan and has never once complained about lag. He played almost all the GCPL matches, NASL, FXOpen tournaments, etc. He doesn't complain about the lag, he plays his game and performs well most of the time. He also plays regularly on the NA ladder.
Maybe, players in Korea should practice on the NA server to get used to the conditions of playing there if they know they will be playing in tournaments on the NA server.
Ultimately, there is no best solution, as I said. There has to be some give. If Liquid is really the only team that would be adversely affected by this rule, then it would be a bit unfair to inconvenience 7 teams to appease 1 team. If Liquid couldn't bend to the requirements, it isn't really fair to turn around and blame the organizers. Notice Tyler didn't say "best" solution but "best known". Can you provide a better known solution? The implementation of this solution in the TSL shows that it can work, and nobody else has come up with anything better. The root of Tyler's frustration I think is because this is his livelihood, it may be entertainment for the watchers but this game is how he makes a living. If you played competitive sports and the competition didn't try their best to provide a "fair" environment I would be pissed off as well. EG chose convenience over fairness. Tyler is frustrated and Team`Liquid have abstained because of this. Except that it's not fair to the other seven teams in the league when they have to all go out of their way to accommodate liquid. As Xeris said, server switching in BoX formats is okay when there are seeds, but in a team league there isn't really a good/fair way to decide who gets server choice in a deciding game, should it come to that. Ergo, if liquid wants to participate in the league, they would have to be inconvenienced (one team, and really only one player as they could field tlo, ret, and tyler from NA/EU who would all be fine) instead of being unfair to the other seven teams. You make it sound like logging onto another server a herculean feat of effort. HINT: Most pros already have access and have played on other servers It would be UNFAIR for KR players to play on overseas server. It would be INCONVENIENT for EU/NA players to alternate servers. There's a huge difference. TL's introduces fairness for convenience, it doesn't disadvantage the EU/NA players in anyway. It's not logging on another server. If the games are live casted, then it introduces a HUGE amount of downtime. If the player uses custom Hotkeys, every game he would have to re-arrange that, since the accounts would be shared. And if Tyler and Idra are to be taken as example, pro-players make a VERY EXTENSIVE customization of Hotkeys, so it could take 5~10 minutes between games and even then the player could make some mistake and have to pause in-game to fix hotkeys. AND, as other people said, would introduce unfairness since Liquid probably trains, and is used to, KR-NA lag, whereas NA and EU players are not used to KR lag.
Guess what?
KR players are subject to the exact same things to players on NA servers?
Why would you assume KR players are "used" to NA lag and not vice-versa? KR players have no reason to play on NA as much as NA players have on KR?
Even if they did, it's not very logical to give them a disadvantage because they are "used" to it.
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On May 02 2011 10:12 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 10:08 Pirat6662001 wrote:
Confused why team Empire did not get invited. Easily would be in top 4 with presented line up.
Nerchio, Kas, Beasty, Happy as main line up with BLy and hobot to call upon is a fearsome team Empire was 7th / 8 in the GCPL . @_@
But Somehow SixJax -- or whatever they are called -- were above them? seriously, that's the shittiest explanation I've heard.. Empire, after signing Happy and Nerchio and Kas becoming the bad ass he's nowadays, would be the favorite against any team, except perhaps for dignitas.
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Looking past the KR/Non KR server drama, I think there are more than enough good teams to increase the teams involved. With teams like FXO, Empire, vVv, (liquid) and others having players capable of winning any given game, it ends up being like the BCS where there is some weird (and in this case arbitrary if sixjax is in) system that leaves out some deserving teams who have just as good a chance of winning.
Having said that, this tourny should be very fun but hopefully in the future we can see more teams involved. I'd like to think EG isn't just limiting the pool + adding the 2v2 just to increase their own odds of winning (like some people seem to be implying).
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Disappointed that FXO and Liquid won't be in there but it's just another league to watch, hopefully it will produce some awesome games~
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On May 02 2011 12:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 12:28 SiguR wrote:
Isn't it possible to say that having a disadvantage in NA/EU online events is the price to be paid for being able to participate in korean "offline" events like the GSL?
It might sound weird, but if liquid decides to keep it's players in korea for the GSL while the NA/EU scene is expanding, can they reasonably expect to have concessions made for them in NA/EU events that put others at a disadvantage (others who don't have the benefit of competing in korean events)? I wouldn't think so. Idra is back in north america because it seemed to him or his team that it would be more worthwhile to have no obstacles when competing in the foreign scene. It seems that some liquid members decided differently, and this is one of those obstacles.
Either way it's unfortunate, but I don't think event organizers are doing anything too crazy. Are you fucking kidding me? Yes I can compete in Korean events, but you dont see me fucking competing in 99% of the European events so Im already paying a prize. What you are saying makes 0 sense.
No, I'm not "fucking kidding you".
I was simply bringing a thought to the discussion in the form of a question. The vehemence in your response feels unnecessary. I wasn't trying to criticize anyone.
Let me try to explain my thought in better detail by using the example of idra. Bear with me.
He moved back to the US. One of the main reasons for this was that he wanted to participate in a number of foreigner events without being impeded. He sacrificed participating in the GSL to do this.
Whether it was intentional or not, some liquid players stayed in korea to participate in the GSL, and therefore sacrificed opportunities to compete in certain foreign events. It's a trade-off, and i'm sure you as a competitor understand that far better than I do. If you know that there are cross server issues and you want to compete in foreign events without issue or disadvantage, you should situate yourself in a location that does not give you considerable latency issues on foreign servers.
If you don't want to play at a disadvantage while living in korea, you don't participate (which seems to be what was decided).
I would imagine it is incredibly difficult to organize and maintain a large event like this across three servers instead of two. If event managers want to minimize exposure to organizational hazards and decide to limit the servers that the games are played on, I don't really think they should be crucified for it.
But please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say "ITS YOUR GUYS' FAULT FOR WANTING TO PLAY IN THE GSL!!!!!". I agree the situation sucks and I'd love to see liquid compete in this event as much as anyone else. I simply don't feel as though the management of this event are committing some atrocious act as would be implied by some of the posts in this thread. It seems to be a reasonable and understandable decision by them, even if it's not ideal.
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On May 02 2011 13:38 s4life wrote:
No Empire? Kas, Nerchio, Happy and Beastqt would rolfstomp pretty much any other team.
nolol. kas is fucking amazing but the rest are lackluster!
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Grrr of course there will be an advantage for Liquid if the rule do pass through. However small, it is an advantage. It means that the teams preparing for Liquid will have to prepare in all 3 servers ( as it has been said various times, you need to play a lot of games to get used to it so if a team want to do well , it's logical for its players to acclamatize on it).
Liquid players only need to train on his home server + NA. Others need to train for KR NA EU. It is small and might or might not make a difference but there is a case to be made that allowing the rule to pass would be unfair to the o ther teams.
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As Chill said.
Team Liquid was INVITED.
Team`Liquid asked for concessions to be made to make the grounds more fair.
EG said no.
Team`Liquid didn't take the invitation.
Stop arguing that they shouldn't have a right to play when they were INVITED.
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I got a solution. How about Liquid fly back to NA and play? Every sport team does this. Isn't that the the reason you flew to Korea for the GSL?
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On May 02 2011 13:48 GoldenGun wrote:
I got a solution. How about Liquid fly back to NA and play? Every sport team does this. Isn't that that the reason you flew to Korea for the GSL?
It's a league.
Flying 3 people back and forth from Korea 7-10 times for a possible 5 grand. Doesn't sound too exciting does it.
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EPT
