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EG launch $10,000 Master's Cup Series League - Page 10

Forum Index > Closed
1006 CommentsPost a Reply
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IPA
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3206 Posts
May 02 2011 04:17 GMT
#181
No Liquid; no FXO; and a laughable 2v2 match - those are the downers. Still, looking forward to the matches (and the ensuing drama)!
Time held me green and dying though I sang in my chains like the sea.
divito
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1213 Posts
May 02 2011 04:18 GMT
#182
Very disappointing all around for EG.
Skype: divito7
Thermia
Profile Joined August 2010
United States866 Posts
May 02 2011 04:20 GMT
#183
On May 02 2011 13:13 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2011 13:06 Thermia wrote:
On May 02 2011 12:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On May 02 2011 11:49 iNcontroL wrote:
TSL had a huge population of korean invites (so it makes sense to accommodate koreans/KR server)

EG MC has 1 team with people on the kOR server and even then it isn't their whole team. Excluding Sen EVERY OTHER PLAYER is from NA/EU which has 10x better connection than korea.

Why would the majority (VAST MAJORITY) take a hit to the benefit of TL and it's few players in korea?

A NA team hosts a tourney on the NA server where it's casters/teams are mostly located and TL asks for an unreasonable exception and then slanders EG... not your finest moment Tyler.

Unreasonable?

Unreasonable to say "We will of course provide our opponents with any accounts on any server required"? How is this unreasonable at all?


I didn't think that getting accounts to play on was at all the issue; it was/is the delay from play on KR servers. Obviously, Liquid would be in a somewhat better position than other teams if games with them were played on alternating servers because they are already relatively acclimated to playing with the extra latency, while other teams are generally not. In my opinion, it's not asking an unreasonable (there's that word again) amount from Liquid that one of their players in korea play with some latency if they are needed. While it may be somewhat unfair to that player and therefore the team as a whole, that's something that someone is going to have to put up with one way or another, and asking liquid to possibly play one game with extra latency is overall both less work and less unfair to the league as a whole than having everyone else play on korean servers for them.

How do you think we became more acclimatized to it? By being forced into playing in bad conditions in leagues and tournaments - I never practiced on NA, ever- -;


I agree with that, Jinro, but now that you have had some experience playing with the latency (I have no idea how often; I'm sure it's not very much), you have to admit it would be somewhat favorable to you compared to teams on NA that haven't had any experience at all. I also agree (as you can see from my post) that the situation would rarely come up when you would be using someone from KR vs an NA player, and I think that, depending on the format of the league, it could be worked around - for example, if teams played each other twice in the season, then the first NA-KR game could be played on the NA server and the game in the second series could be played on KR server, with playoffs deciding seeds and therefore, the server to be played on. However, that would require you to presumably not be allowed to use a KR player in the ace match if one came about, which would probably be a whole new can of worms.
Sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling. IGN: Mierin
Mailing
Profile Joined March 2011
United States3087 Posts
May 02 2011 04:21 GMT
#184
On May 02 2011 13:18 divito wrote:
Very disappointing all around for EG.


Disappointing for liquid*

Everyone else is happy with this..
Are you hurting ESPORTS? Find out today - http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=232866
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
May 02 2011 04:24 GMT
#185
lets play a quick numbers game jinro

na -> kr bad
eu -> kr bad

7 of 8 teams are non KR

ALL DON'T WANT TO PLAY KR

so YES providing accounts makes it possible. YES casting from reps means casters are fine (my bad). OK we got that out of the way!

Now we have the VAST MAJORITY of the players that would 100% rather not play ANY games on KR. Whether it's an equal number or w/e.. it's 100% bad for them.

Does the NA based team EG accommodate it's NA players / EU (NA->EU isn't perfect but is considered fine)? Or does it make the exception at the cost of displacing more players?

I have no idea why TL throws a stink here. GCPL was the same way... everyone was fine with it.
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
May 02 2011 04:24 GMT
#186
On May 02 2011 13:21 Mailing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2011 13:18 divito wrote:
Very disappointing all around for EG.


Disappointing for liquid*

Everyone else is happy with this..


The EU teams probably aren't. But who is going to say anything when you can compete for 5000$ and there is no alternative?

I am exciting for these matches. But I do not like the way EG handled this.

I had a good night of sleep.
Whole
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States6046 Posts
May 02 2011 04:24 GMT
#187
well let's look at the bright side of this situation. SotG will have another topic to talk about!!!
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
May 02 2011 04:26 GMT
#188
On May 02 2011 13:24 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2011 13:21 Mailing wrote:
On May 02 2011 13:18 divito wrote:
Very disappointing all around for EG.


Disappointing for liquid*

Everyone else is happy with this..


The EU teams probably aren't. But who is going to say anything when you can compete for 5000$ and there is no alternative?

I am exciting for these matches. But I do not like the way EG handled this.



It's your 3rd post with you pretending EU teams are somehow offended by the lack of server changing.

They aren't. They host the black dragon league as well as other cl's that are on the EU server. Nobody makes this insane argument that an EU based clan league needs to have it's players change to the NA server to accommodate the 1/2 NA teams in the league.

Please stop!
Swixi
Profile Joined August 2010
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-02 04:28:59
May 02 2011 04:26 GMT
#189
-redundant-
StUfF
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia1437 Posts
May 02 2011 04:28 GMT
#190
On May 02 2011 13:24 iNcontroL wrote:
lets play a quick numbers game jinro

na -> kr bad
eu -> kr bad

7 of 8 teams are non KR

ALL DON'T WANT TO PLAY KR

so YES providing accounts makes it possible. YES casting from reps means casters are fine (my bad). OK we got that out of the way!

Now we have the VAST MAJORITY of the players that would 100% rather not play ANY games on KR. Whether it's an equal number or w/e.. it's 100% bad for them.

Does the NA based team EG accommodate it's NA players / EU (NA->EU isn't perfect but is considered fine)? Or does it make the exception at the cost of displacing more players?

I have no idea why TL throws a stink here. GCPL was the same way... everyone was fine with it.


EU never has to play on KR according to Jinro's proposed solution.

Were you involved at all in the decision process?
Kurr
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2338 Posts
May 02 2011 04:28 GMT
#191
On May 02 2011 13:16 SMD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2011 13:09 dtz wrote:
On May 02 2011 13:05 StUfF wrote:
On May 02 2011 13:03 iNcontroL wrote:
On May 02 2011 12:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On May 02 2011 11:49 iNcontroL wrote:
TSL had a huge population of korean invites (so it makes sense to accommodate koreans/KR server)

EG MC has 1 team with people on the kOR server and even then it isn't their whole team. Excluding Sen EVERY OTHER PLAYER is from NA/EU which has 10x better connection than korea.

Why would the majority (VAST MAJORITY) take a hit to the benefit of TL and it's few players in korea?

A NA team hosts a tourney on the NA server where it's casters/teams are mostly located and TL asks for an unreasonable exception and then slanders EG... not your finest moment Tyler.

Unreasonable?

Unreasonable to say "We will of course provide our opponents with any accounts on any server required"? How is this unreasonable at all?


Yes it is unreasonable to ask 7 teams / casters to play on the KR server so that Huk/Jinro and Haypro can play on their home server.

What I said had nothing to do with accounts being offered. It's obviously the latency / quality of the games. You will have MORE disgruntled players if TL gets its way. It's like literally 49 players vs 3... wtf.


Again.

Convience vs Fairness.
Sports vs Entertainment.

Why is it unreasonable to ask players to play on KR when you are asking KR players to play NA/EU?



Eh it's not just about convenience vs fairness. It is also unfair to make 7 other teams having to practice on KR when there is only one KR team. Under this rule, playing against Liquid means your players have to be able to play on 3 servers. NA EU KR because you don't know who they will send for ace. If its against Ret/TLO, you have to play EU. Tyler - NA. Jinro - KR. Whereas the Liquid players only need to prepare for EU-NA mostly.




Again, not 7 teams. Mouz is european, MYM, Mill, are european. Dignitas as well has many europeans.

EU v KR are played on NA. EU v NA are played on NA right now. how would you prepare differently for Jinro isntead of Tyler, if your in europe? You'll play on the same server, or well if TL gets its way, youll get better lag playing Tyler. There suggestion only negatively effects the 3-4 NA teams a bit.

Im not saying EG is wrong in rejecting it, as it is their tourny, and it will be awesome none the less.


I'll have to side with EG's decision on this matter. They didn't block Liquid from entering the tournament. They invited them over plenty of other teams that would love to enter this tournament, NA server only or not.

I understand Liquid's frustration with the decision, but they made the tournament with a set of rules including NA only server play. Even if it lends certain teams to a disadvantage, it doesn't make it impossible for them to win.

For an easy comparison, look @ NASL. There were plenty of games where Koreans had to play on the NA server. Some had visible lag issues, while others had no visible issues. On the other hand, look at TSL. The same comments can be made of this tournament to be honest. So many fans complained of the lag issues already for both tournaments, despite the TSL using the "best known method" of alternating servers.

In all honesty, there is no way to please everyone when it comes to having people from the KR server play in international tournaments. I don't feel the NA only rule (or for example an EU only rule for a european tournament) is a huge deal in fighting this problem. In fact, earlier in the thread, Jinro proposed flipping a coin to see who would get server advantage. I feel this would hinder the competitiveness of the tournament. Certainly, I would be a bit demoralized going into a 3rd match against a player (meaning you are somewhat evenly matches) with a server disadvantage given to me at the last second based on a coin flip. On the other hand, I feel you can be in the right mind set if all games are played on the same server.

Note : I would support server switching. I think it's a better way to handle things. But I would mostly support this only if all players are NA/EU because I feel that with players from the KR server it's a lose/lose situation either way, no matter the rule set.

+ Show Spoiler +

As a side note, I will admit that as a viewer, I hate seeing lag even SLIGHTLY affect a game. I love to see koreans vs foreigners, but it can be annoying to watch. I had this problem with the TSL and the NASL despite having an overall enjoyable viewing experience. I know it's unfair, but until we have dedicated servers or a better way to limit lag from KR to other servers, I personally prefer watching NA/EU vs NA/EU and KR vs KR (GSL being my favorite league).

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Let it Raine
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1245 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-02 04:31:08
May 02 2011 04:30 GMT
#192
lots of juicy drama

should be a great league regardless!
Grandmaster Zerg x14. Diamond 1 LoL. MLG 50, Halo 3. Raine.
Chewbacca.
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3634 Posts
May 02 2011 04:33 GMT
#193
All this complaining really needs to stop. The fact is EG is hosting a great tournament with a great pay out. Any tournament is good for SC2, particularly if it is being hosted by a respected team and there is a nice prize pool.

Sure people may not be happy that there favorite team isn't part of the league, but there are still plenty of other good teams in it and there are sure to be exciting games with high level play.
Smapz
Profile Joined January 2011
Norway405 Posts
May 02 2011 04:33 GMT
#194
Love it, a bit disappointing without Liquid, but still lots of great teams in the pool. Can't wait!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
mikyaJ
Profile Joined April 2011
1834 Posts
May 02 2011 04:36 GMT
#195
On May 02 2011 13:33 Chewbacca. wrote:
All this complaining really needs to stop. The fact is EG is hosting a great tournament with a great pay out. Any tournament is good for SC2, particularly if it is being hosted by a respected team and there is a nice prize pool.

Sure people may not be happy that there favorite team isn't part of the league, but there are still plenty of other good teams in it and there are sure to be exciting games with high level play.

No, there is ALWAYS something to complain about.
MKP||TSL
denzelz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States604 Posts
May 02 2011 04:36 GMT
#196
I think this whole situation is hilarous. After every TSL game when a foreign player beats a Korean player, everyone was told not to blame the lag for their victories. People clamored about how the lag didn't really matter if the other player was superior in skill. Now, the entire Liquid team is excluded by this tournament because they have players living in Korea. Great hypocrisy!
Oreo7
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1647 Posts
May 02 2011 04:37 GMT
#197
So silly that EG couldn't accommodate the most popular foreign SC2 team.

If Idra was in KR they would be singing a different tune.

Stork HerO and Protoss everywhere - redfive on bnet
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
May 02 2011 04:38 GMT
#198
On May 02 2011 13:36 denzelz wrote:
I think this whole situation is hilarous. After every TSL game when a foreign player beats a Korean player, everyone was told not to blame the lag for their victories. People clamored about how the lag didn't really matter if the other player was superior in skill. Now, the entire Liquid team is excluded by this tournament because they have players living in Korea. Great hypocrisy!

Wait. Hypocrisy from who?
ModeratorGood content always wins.
s4life
Profile Joined March 2007
Peru1519 Posts
May 02 2011 04:38 GMT
#199
No Empire? Kas, Nerchio, Happy and Beastqt would rolfstomp pretty much any other team.
Jotoco
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil1342 Posts
May 02 2011 04:38 GMT
#200
On May 02 2011 12:50 StUfF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2011 12:45 Thermia wrote:
On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:
On May 02 2011 12:23 Xeris wrote:
I think it's a dangerous assumption, Tyler, to say that the method TSL had is the "best known solution." In a BO3, if you play one game on NA and one game on KR, what happens when the series goes to a 3rd game? Which server do you play on? I believe the TSL's solution to this was "the players with a higher seed," which might work for the TSL's tournament format, but not so much in a clan-war type scenario.

How do you determine 'seeding' in this case? The team with the better record? That seems way too situational to be effective, it's like favoring the team that's already favored, in essence. In all honesty, there is no best solution for this problem until Blizzard implements LAN latency/cross-server play. I will add however, that Sen plays from Taiwan and has never once complained about lag. He played almost all the GCPL matches, NASL, FXOpen tournaments, etc. He doesn't complain about the lag, he plays his game and performs well most of the time. He also plays regularly on the NA ladder.

Maybe, players in Korea should practice on the NA server to get used to the conditions of playing there if they know they will be playing in tournaments on the NA server.

Ultimately, there is no best solution, as I said. There has to be some give. If Liquid is really the only team that would be adversely affected by this rule, then it would be a bit unfair to inconvenience 7 teams to appease 1 team. If Liquid couldn't bend to the requirements, it isn't really fair to turn around and blame the organizers.


Notice Tyler didn't say "best" solution but "best known".
Can you provide a better known solution? The implementation of this solution in the TSL shows that it can work, and nobody else has come up with anything better.

The root of Tyler's frustration I think is because this is his livelihood, it may be entertainment for the watchers but this game is how he makes a living. If you played competitive sports and the competition didn't try their best to provide a "fair" environment I would be pissed off as well.

EG chose convenience over fairness. Tyler is frustrated and Team`Liquid have abstained because of this.



Except that it's not fair to the other seven teams in the league when they have to all go out of their way to accommodate liquid. As Xeris said, server switching in BoX formats is okay when there are seeds, but in a team league there isn't really a good/fair way to decide who gets server choice in a deciding game, should it come to that. Ergo, if liquid wants to participate in the league, they would have to be inconvenienced (one team, and really only one player as they could field tlo, ret, and tyler from NA/EU who would all be fine) instead of being unfair to the other seven teams.


You make it sound like logging onto another server a herculean feat of effort.
HINT: Most pros already have access and have played on other servers

It would be UNFAIR for KR players to play on overseas server.
It would be INCONVENIENT for EU/NA players to alternate servers.

There's a huge difference. TL's introduces fairness for convenience, it doesn't disadvantage the EU/NA players in anyway.



It's not logging on another server.

If the games are live casted, then it introduces a HUGE amount of downtime.

If the player uses custom Hotkeys, every game he would have to re-arrange that, since the accounts would be shared. And if Tyler and Idra are to be taken as example, pro-players make a VERY EXTENSIVE customization of Hotkeys, so it could take 5~10 minutes between games and even then the player could make some mistake and have to pause in-game to fix hotkeys.


AND, as other people said, would introduce unfairness since Liquid probably trains, and is used to, KR-NA lag, whereas NA and EU players are not used to KR lag.
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