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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2011 11:49 iNcontroL wrote:
TSL had a huge population of korean invites (so it makes sense to accommodate koreans/KR server)
EG MC has 1 team with people on the kOR server and even then it isn't their whole team. Excluding Sen EVERY OTHER PLAYER is from NA/EU which has 10x better connection than korea.
Why would the majority (VAST MAJORITY) take a hit to the benefit of TL and it's few players in korea?
A NA team hosts a tourney on the NA server where it's casters/teams are mostly located and TL asks for an unreasonable exception and then slanders EG... not your finest moment Tyler.
Unreasonable?
Unreasonable to say "We will of course provide our opponents with any accounts on any server required"? How is this unreasonable at all?
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On May 02 2011 12:52 Goibon wrote:
How hard is it (time investment?) to get used to the latency if you're in NA playing on KR server?
This is a decent point. Wasn't it Jinro (Tyler maybe) who said something like you can get used to the latency of KR --> NA just by playing like 20 cross server games?
I understand that it still isn't perfect and I am saddened that TL won't be in the league, but I think both sides have some fair points.
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Guest commentary by IdrA? I think i am dreaming....
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On May 02 2011 11:49 iNcontroL wrote:
TSL had a huge population of korean invites (so it makes sense to accommodate koreans/KR server)
EG MC has 1 team with people on the kOR server and even then it isn't their whole team. Excluding Sen EVERY OTHER PLAYER is from NA/EU which has 10x better connection than korea.
Why would the majority (VAST MAJORITY) take a hit to the benefit of TL and it's few players in korea?
A NA team hosts a tourney on the NA server where it's casters/teams are mostly located and TL
asks for an unreasonable exception and then slanders EG... not your finest moment Tyler.
Incontrol, I can understand why you guys decided to eliminate the KR server. It is indeed annoying if 7 teams have to train on the KR server to accommodate a couple players on 1 team.
But why aren't there any games played on the EU server, if it is NA vs EU...
Aren't you going to start a bad tradition where all tournaments will be played on the home servers? Just to pester the teams from other servers? When you have 4 teams from EU it is only fair to play 1 game on the EU server in a bo3?
It takes a bit more time to change servers, but seriously it shouldn't take more than 1 minute.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Looks like a fun league, but there are noticeable omissions beyond Liquid'. Empire, Praetoriani, FXO, and maybe some other outfits like Virus, Complexity, and ROX. Why not have a playoff for the final two spots?
But it does seem a little silly to not do some server switching to ensure optimal conditions for everyone involved.
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I really want a tournament with a WL format to come out soon. Still this is pretty cool, can't wait.
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why isn't there Complexity or Team Liquid...........
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United States22883 Posts
On May 02 2011 12:50 StUfF wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 12:45 Thermia wrote:On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:On May 02 2011 12:23 Xeris wrote:
I think it's a dangerous assumption, Tyler, to say that the method TSL had is the "best known solution." In a BO3, if you play one game on NA and one game on KR, what happens when the series goes to a 3rd game? Which server do you play on? I believe the TSL's solution to this was "the players with a higher seed," which might work for the TSL's tournament format, but not so much in a clan-war type scenario.
How do you determine 'seeding' in this case? The team with the better record? That seems way too situational to be effective, it's like favoring the team that's already favored, in essence. In all honesty, there is no best solution for this problem until Blizzard implements LAN latency/cross-server play. I will add however, that Sen plays from Taiwan and has never once complained about lag. He played almost all the GCPL matches, NASL, FXOpen tournaments, etc. He doesn't complain about the lag, he plays his game and performs well most of the time. He also plays regularly on the NA ladder.
Maybe, players in Korea should practice on the NA server to get used to the conditions of playing there if they know they will be playing in tournaments on the NA server.
Ultimately, there is no best solution, as I said. There has to be some give. If Liquid is really the only team that would be adversely affected by this rule, then it would be a bit unfair to inconvenience 7 teams to appease 1 team. If Liquid couldn't bend to the requirements, it isn't really fair to turn around and blame the organizers. Notice Tyler didn't say "best" solution but "best known". Can you provide a better known solution? The implementation of this solution in the TSL shows that it can work, and nobody else has come up with anything better. The root of Tyler's frustration I think is because this is his livelihood, it may be entertainment for the watchers but this game is how he makes a living. If you played competitive sports and the competition didn't try their best to provide a "fair" environment I would be pissed off as well. EG chose convenience over fairness. Tyler is frustrated and Team`Liquid have abstained because of this. Except that it's not fair to the other seven teams in the league when they have to all go out of their way to accommodate liquid. As Xeris said, server switching in BoX formats is okay when there are seeds, but in a team league there isn't really a good/fair way to decide who gets server choice in a deciding game, should it come to that. Ergo, if liquid wants to participate in the league, they would have to be inconvenienced (one team, and really only one player as they could field tlo, ret, and tyler from NA/EU who would all be fine) instead of being unfair to the other seven teams. You make it sound like logging onto another server a herculean feat of effort. HINT: Most pros already have access and have played on other servers It would be UNFAIR for KR players to play on overseas server. It would be INCONVENIENT for EU/NA players to alternate servers. There's a huge difference. TL's introduces fairness for convenience, it doesn't disadvantage the EU/NA players in anyway. It also seems like a fairly minor inconvenience, considering it'll only take place during matches with 5 specific players in the entire league. The EU-NA issue seems far more problematic, and honestly, it's easy to side with Tyler on that one. Yeah, EU players have gotten used to NA lag but they're still at a disadvantage, which is most noticeable at the professional level.
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Nice event.
Frankly I don't make to much of some teams being left out because frankly, and I know this might be shocking to some people, you CAN NOT accommodate everyone all the time and sometimes people will be left out.
Frankly I always thought the server switching could lead to inconsistency in play since it reminds me of when I would play Counter Strike and have 10 ping on a NY sever and then play with 60 on a Texas. Things you can do on one you can't do on another and sometimes you get caught. This might be different in SC2 since I have never tested it but for a game that is about repetition and consistency that almost seems counter intuitive.
On May 02 2011 12:37 StUfF wrote:EG chose convenience over fairness. Tyler is frustrated and Team`Liquid have abstained because of this.
EG chose to be convenient to the 7 other teams over the 1 who wanted to do it a different way. Frankly that is called being fair.
At the end of the day both sides are justified for there feeling in the matter and the decision they chose to take. Hopefully in future events everyone involved can be satisfied but I highly doubt that will ever happen.
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Jinro you made a thread about lag, and how if you need to play on NA, then you need to practice for lag.
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Idra commentating?! This tournament just got 5X more epic.
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All I've gotten from this discussion/bantering is that I'm even more pissed with Blizzard for not having cross-region support.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I think even the Stars War format is acceptable, where in KR vs China you flip a coin to decide if you play on KR or China servers...
On May 02 2011 13:01 Justanx wrote:
Jinro you made a thread about lag, and how if you need to play on NA, then you need to practice for lag.
Yes, and for Europe vs Korea you have no choice but to play on NA. Plenty of tournaments are too small as well to be expected to accomodate something like this, so play on NA.
But this is a teamleague, we have lots of players in Korea, our request is not unreasonable.
I REALLY wanted to play this league, but at some point you gotta say no and try to change the accepted way of doing things, because its not fair to join a league at a disadvantage, just because that has been the standard for small online tournaments.
A 10k league is not small.
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Will there be VoDs? The times are kinda EU unfriendly 
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United States22883 Posts
On May 02 2011 13:01 Justanx wrote:
Jinro you made a thread about lag, and how if you need to play on NA, then you need to practice for lag.
Even if you're used to lag, you will always be at a disadvantage when it's there. Your performance ceiling is automatically lowered.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 02 2011 12:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 11:49 iNcontroL wrote:
TSL had a huge population of korean invites (so it makes sense to accommodate koreans/KR server)
EG MC has 1 team with people on the kOR server and even then it isn't their whole team. Excluding Sen EVERY OTHER PLAYER is from NA/EU which has 10x better connection than korea.
Why would the majority (VAST MAJORITY) take a hit to the benefit of TL and it's few players in korea?
A NA team hosts a tourney on the NA server where it's casters/teams are mostly located and TL asks for an unreasonable exception and then slanders EG... not your finest moment Tyler. Unreasonable? Unreasonable to say "We will of course provide our opponents with any accounts on any server required"? How is this unreasonable at all?
Yes it is unreasonable to ask 7 teams / casters to play on the KR server so that Huk/Jinro and Haypro can play on their home server.
What I said had nothing to do with accounts being offered. It's obviously the latency / quality of the games. You will have MORE disgruntled players if TL gets its way. It's like literally 49 players vs 3... wtf.
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seems like kind of a stupid move not to include team liquid... they'll pull a ridiculous amount of viewers
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On May 02 2011 13:01 Justanx wrote:
Jinro you made a thread about lag, and how if you need to play on NA, then you need to practice for lag.
You can get used to the latency but that doesn't mean it's not there.
If you have 500ms - no matter what you do your actions are delayed 500ms. You can adapt by doing things pre-emptively/allowing a larger windows for stuff but it's still there.
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EG FIGHTINGGGGGGGGGGG 
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EPT
