On February 09 2011 17:02 annul wrote: if every human on earth went vegetarian, EVERY ANIMAL WOULD DIE. there would not be enough land for cows to graze on, for example, because it would all be in use growing food for humans. one cow can feed a LOT of people for quite a few meals, and takes up a lot less space and requires a lot less arable land than the same amount of grown food.
So the penguins in antarctical would die too? :s
Obviously vegetarianism cannot happen overnight, it has to happen progressively if it is going to work. Not that it will ever happen though
Hey Skeny. Have you ever thrown some shrimp on the barbee?
That sad face on your post shows that you have a great deal of ignorance! You expect the entire world to give in, and succumb to your vegetarian lifestyle? You know who else tried to force a different lifestyle on people? I'll give you a hint... it ryhmes with "Hitler"!
Once you stop "sharing" your vegetarianist ideals (aka, forcing on), I'm sure people will stop torturing you for your choices. No one likes being forced into things. If they wanna eat the bark off of trees, then they'll come see you...
On February 09 2011 16:53 Belial88 wrote: As someone who's been to Africa and many other continents...
It amazes me how people talk about being vegetarian. It's a luxury you can only have when your point of view is so skewed because you are so wealthy. There's no such thing as vegetarian in the majority of the world.
The reason for the mass slaughter of animals is because it is efficient. 'Humane slaughter' (an oxymoron) just contributes to rising prices of meat, and in effect makes it so people in developing countries have a harder time receiving sustenance. You may think McDonald's is evil, but in many places in the world that aren't even that bad, like Northern Africa, McDonald's is a considerably source of sustenance for a populace that lives on pennies a day. In other places, it is considered a restaurant of high quality for a night out.
Getting rid of slaughterhouses and corporations like Mcdonalds only hurts the poorest of people in the world. So if you want to be vegan for health reasons (personally, I think being vegetarian is slightly healther, you need very little meat in your diet) that's fine, but being a vegan-activist is something only people with a limited point of view and a position of luxury can afford. And you may think you're poor, but you have no idea what poor is until you leave your rich country.
TL;DR Eat meat
Thank you very much and 100% agreed. It is good to have the view of someone who is a realist and not an insular indoor activist.
However, I suppose it is another matter whether the regulations for slaughter of animals should be changed in NA/EU to account for changing perspectives. Nonetheless, one shouldn't so quick to judge upon such practices, especially in poorer countries or countries where the nutritional alternatives are not viable in any way.
As someone who has studied agriculture during high school, I can almost assure that the footage is significantly exaggerated in relation to the Australian industry.
Although the Australian meat industry does have very high standards which I congratulate them for, what about halal slaughter? I must confess that I'm not sure if it happens in this country but by it's description it sounds very brutal and totally unnecessary.
On February 09 2011 16:53 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Humans have evolved and become omnivores yet Vegetarians seem to have a healthier life... Hm... Interesting to say the least.
Vegetarian Statistics show that vegetarians have lower risk of getting cancer, heart disease and high blood pressure.
According to vegetarian statistics, the probability of getting hypertension if you're a vegetarian is about ½ to 1/3 to that of a non-vegetarian.22% of Caucasian omnivores have hypertension while its only 7% for vegetarians. For African Americans 44% of omnivores likely has hypertension while only 18% have hypertension.
Staying on a vegetarian diet for a whole year lowers your cholesterol by 24.3%, as stated by several vegetarian statistics. So it generally follows that most vegetarians, if not all of them have lower cholesterol levels.
If you're not a vegetarian you have 25 to 50% higher chances of getting cancer as opposed to a vegetarian. This 25 to 50% vegetarian statistics is even after you have controlled your smoking, body mass index, and socioeconomic factors.
I think the question is why should I suffer just because there is a large population out there that does not understand moderation? Maybe if people could understand that they should do everything in moderation then maybe we probably wouldn't have the need for places that serve this kind of cruelty...
Personally, I eat meat twice a week, sometimes three and it's only a small potion of my entire meal. Sooner or later reality is going to hit the world hard and people are (at some point) going to have to rethink their lives.
On February 09 2011 17:11 nOia.pod wrote: Those guys who are qqing here about slaughtering animals would have died in the ages where humans had to hunt.
Have you guys ever were on a rural pig slaughter? That's the shit.
Been there. That's the real shit.
As a Kid (was like 6) I was asked to hold tight the rope that kept the pig upside down, while some other guy stabbed the neck.
Also, I am offended by the mod's choice to close the Carnivore thread, while leaving this one open. The only open complaint on the other thread was from a main argument-provoker of this one.
I ask that if you feel the Carnivore thread should be closed, then logic would dictate that this one deserves similar treatment. Also, and this is just my opinion... I think that the video in the OP should be removed, as while I feel that it is a part of life, it is NOT a part of life that a younger team liquid forum-dweller needs to see. (NO thirteen year old needs to see that stuff)
This is not a demand, mind you... but I do feel strongly, and have just realized that children DO come to these forums (by children, I do mean 12-13 year olds), and frankly, do NOT need to see this...
On February 09 2011 16:37 Sotamursu wrote: To be honest they can torture those animals twice as harder, if the quality of the meat stays good and it ups production. No one still has told me why I should give a flying fuck about farm animals. Just use the most efficient method which maximizes quality, if animals suffer because of it, well tough shit.
Going vegan makes you more healthy? You can be an omnivore and stay healthy. If all you eat is 12 hamburgers and 5 pizzas a day, it doesn't matter what diet you start to follow. Of course you will lose weight and be healthier.
You should give a fuck because of that thing called empathy. Your reaction indicates that you are either sociopath or playing a tough guy. Hopefully the latter.
So you make a massive lifestyle choice based on feeling sorry for some animals you saw in a video? Ok.
On February 09 2011 17:02 annul wrote: if every human on earth went vegetarian, EVERY ANIMAL WOULD DIE. there would not be enough land for cows to graze on, for example, because it would all be in use growing food for humans. one cow can feed a LOT of people for quite a few meals, and takes up a lot less space and requires a lot less arable land than the same amount of grown food.
So the penguins in antarctical would die too? :s
Obviously vegetarianism cannot happen overnight, it has to happen progressively if it is going to work. Not that it will ever happen though
Hey Skeny. Have you ever thrown some shrimp on the barbee?
That sad face on your post shows that you have a great deal of ignorance! You expect the entire world to give in, and succumb to your vegetarian lifestyle? You know who else tried to force a different lifestyle on people? I'll give you a hint... it ryhmes with "Hitler"!
Once you stop "sharing" your vegetarianist ideals (aka, forcing on), I'm sure people will stop torturing you for your choices. No one likes being forced into things. If they wanna eat the bark off of trees, then they'll come see you...
In responce to your question, Australians don't really throw that much shrimp on the barbee, we mostly do lamb and saussages, common misconception.
Secondly why would you accuse me of being like Hitler? Surely you realise that there is a difference between forcing your beliefs upon people and argueing for what you believe in. Just because I would like for it to happen doesn't mean I will force it upon people.
The post I responded to is totally wrong is almost every way and now it's only fair to accuse me of being a fashist?
You can live the life you want and be proud and happy about it, but the major thing that causes a conflict is how aggressive the veggies are in their propaganda. First of all you are not shifting any supply or demand curves , I have no idea who came up with that one. Having that said your choice to not eat meat is just a personal preference, meat ain't having a smoke and no state would ever enforce a policy against its consumption. lets face it - you cant change anything in this world by being a vegan but on the upside you could be at least satisfied you are not taking part in something you find wrong.
I have a couple of friends that are vegans and we were multiple times near braking our year long relationship - all the youtube videos spammed in facebook or my email, walls of text how venags are better in life, hell, ppl even go down to "vegans fuck better". At some point all this becomes a pub discussion of a manchester united and a liverpool fan about which team is better.
You can express whatever opinion you want, its your civil right, but the approach of the vegans in most of the cases is completely wrong and provokes a very protective reaction.
On February 09 2011 17:11 nOia.pod wrote: Those guys who are qqing here about slaughtering animals would have died in the ages where humans had to hunt.
Have you guys ever were on a rural pig slaughter? That's the shit.
Not true. I would kill an animal if I had to, it's just now I dont have to so I don't.
I think we've moved on a long way from human hunting days, especially because now we raise animals for the slaughter which is totally different to what we evolved to do.
On February 09 2011 17:11 nOia.pod wrote: Those guys who are qqing here about slaughtering animals would have died in the ages where humans had to hunt.
Have you guys ever were on a rural pig slaughter? That's the shit.
Been there. That's the real shit.
As a Kid (was like 6) I was asked to hold tight the rope that kept the pig upside down, while some other guy stabbed the neck.
you sure you dont mix that up with some mafia stuff? ^^
on a serious note though I have no problem with people refusing to eat meat but I absolutely dont like it when their missionary fanatism takes them over and they try to convince me to refuse eating meat.
On February 09 2011 17:02 annul wrote: if every human on earth went vegetarian, EVERY ANIMAL WOULD DIE. there would not be enough land for cows to graze on, for example, because it would all be in use growing food for humans. one cow can feed a LOT of people for quite a few meals, and takes up a lot less space and requires a lot less arable land than the same amount of grown food.
This is stupid. Cows have to eat feed to survive and grow larger. Feed has to grow on arable land. It would be much more efficient to simply grow vegetables/wheat on the land, and eat it directly than to feed everything to a cow, then eat the cow.
This is because the cow uses most of its energy intake from the food to move around and keep its body warm, etc. You aren't going to get this energy when you eat the meat.
On February 09 2011 17:11 nOia.pod wrote: Those guys who are qqing here about slaughtering animals would have died in the ages where humans had to hunt.
Have you guys ever were on a rural pig slaughter? That's the shit.
Not true. I would kill an animal if I had to, it's just now I dont have to so I don't.
I think we've moved on a long way from human hunting days, especially because now we raise animals for the slaughter which is totally different to what we evolved to do.
Actually... I believe that, as humans, we have evolved PAST having to hunt. We have evolved brain power to create farms, and machinery to prepare foods for us.... We have evolved for the simple act of taking from the land.
And I do believe you are forcing beliefs, since you have stated again and again, that eating meat is WRONG, and that veggies are the RIGHT way. You preach an ideal that a large percentage of the population does not believe in, but do not give up arguing. There is a difference between giving up, and giving in. If YOU keep doing what you believe is right, then that is enough. ARGUING with others to conform to what you want sounds a lot like you are throwing freedoms out the window...
On February 09 2011 16:53 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Humans have evolved and become omnivores yet Vegetarians seem to have a healthier life... Hm... Interesting to say the least.
Vegetarian Statistics show that vegetarians have lower risk of getting cancer, heart disease and high blood pressure.
According to vegetarian statistics, the probability of getting hypertension if you're a vegetarian is about ½ to 1/3 to that of a non-vegetarian.22% of Caucasian omnivores have hypertension while its only 7% for vegetarians. For African Americans 44% of omnivores likely has hypertension while only 18% have hypertension.
Staying on a vegetarian diet for a whole year lowers your cholesterol by 24.3%, as stated by several vegetarian statistics. So it generally follows that most vegetarians, if not all of them have lower cholesterol levels.
If you're not a vegetarian you have 25 to 50% higher chances of getting cancer as opposed to a vegetarian. This 25 to 50% vegetarian statistics is even after you have controlled your smoking, body mass index, and socioeconomic factors.
I would say that is because environment(by that in this case I mean what foods are available and in what quantities) is changing faster than our bodies. So having healthy omnivore diet requires effort and sometimes refusal to eat tasty meals and most people being lazy and weak-willed therefore have bad diets. Also they put all non-vegetarians together making it just semi-interesting statistics.
On February 09 2011 16:37 Sotamursu wrote: To be honest they can torture those animals twice as harder, if the quality of the meat stays good and it ups production. No one still has told me why I should give a flying fuck about farm animals. Just use the most efficient method which maximizes quality, if animals suffer because of it, well tough shit.
Going vegan makes you more healthy? You can be an omnivore and stay healthy. If all you eat is 12 hamburgers and 5 pizzas a day, it doesn't matter what diet you start to follow. Of course you will lose weight and be healthier.
You should give a fuck because of that thing called empathy. Your reaction indicates that you are either sociopath or playing a tough guy. Hopefully the latter.
So you make a massive lifestyle choice based on feeling sorry for some animals you saw in a video? Ok.
Humn,I don't necessarily want to play the devil's advocate here(i'm not saying that someone's wrong/someone's right)..but..psst...empathy is a purely human feeling. Oh well bonobos and other monkeys have that,that's an exception.
What most sensible people "feel" like a correspondence for a pet, for example, is purely a projection of your human mind,your human feelings,which forcefully bends the animal behavior to answer to a pattern. (I E grin => anger ). If a cat stays near your,near your legs,your link that behavior to affection (human feeling). The cat most probably is just staying there cuz you are the one that feeds him,and keeps him warm,so he's "interested" in keeping thing this way.
Empathy itself is just an evolutionary device after all. It keeps human being together to maintain them stronger. Animals factor into this cycle only when our minds antromophizes them.
On February 09 2011 16:53 Belial88 wrote: As someone who's been to Africa and many other continents...
It amazes me how people talk about being vegetarian. It's a luxury you can only have when your point of view is so skewed because you are so wealthy. There's no such thing as vegetarian in the majority of the world.
The reason for the mass slaughter of animals is because it is efficient. 'Humane slaughter' (an oxymoron) just contributes to rising prices of meat, and in effect makes it so people in developing countries have a harder time receiving sustenance. You may think McDonald's is evil, but in many places in the world that aren't even that bad, like Northern Africa, McDonald's is a considerably source of sustenance for a populace that lives on pennies a day. In other places, it is considered a restaurant of high quality for a night out.
Getting rid of slaughterhouses and corporations like Mcdonalds only hurts the poorest of people in the world. So if you want to be vegan for health reasons (personally, I think being vegetarian is slightly healther, you need very little meat in your diet) that's fine, but being a vegan-activist is something only people with a limited point of view and a position of luxury can afford. And you may think you're poor, but you have no idea what poor is until you leave your rich country.
TL;DR Eat meat
Thank you very much and 100% agreed. It is good to have the view of someone who is a realist and not an insular indoor activist.
However, I suppose it is another matter whether the regulations for slaughter of animals should be changed in NA/EU to account for changing perspectives. Nonetheless, one shouldn't so quick to judge upon such practices, especially in poorer countries or countries where the nutritional alternatives are not viable in any way.
As someone who has studied agriculture during high school, I can almost assure that the footage is significantly exaggerated in relation to the Australian industry.
Although the Australian meat industry does have very high standards which I congratulate them for, what about halal slaughter? I must confess that I'm not sure if it happens in thts country but by it's description it sounds very brutal and totally unnecessary.
Misconceptions brought on with the 9/11 anti-muslim scare. Halal slaughter is death by severing of the major neck arteries and windpipe of an animal, or dhabia. This drops the animal's blood pressure to zero instantly, blocking air from the brain and instantly making it lose consciousness as it dies.
Just to clarify for everyone who maybe doesn't know any better. I grew up on a dairy farm, spent my whole life on the farm and nothing like this ever went on. And it wasn't a small farm, was the biggest one in my state. Our animals were always treated 10000x better than this and I worked in a huge Chicken plant for extra money when I was in high school and nothing that cruel went on. So this is not how everything is done, I'm sure it is extreme cases to get their point across.
That being said this was hard to watch, I can't even look at it the whole way through. It's very sad to see a living thing go through this if you have any heart at all. What if we got taken over by aliens or something and this is how we were raised / farmed... can u imagine having to go through that... omg
On February 09 2011 16:53 Belial88 wrote: As someone who's been to Africa and many other continents...
It amazes me how people talk about being vegetarian. It's a luxury you can only have when your point of view is so skewed because you are so wealthy. There's no such thing as vegetarian in the majority of the world.
The reason for the mass slaughter of animals is because it is efficient. 'Humane slaughter' (an oxymoron) just contributes to rising prices of meat, and in effect makes it so people in developing countries have a harder time receiving sustenance. You may think McDonald's is evil, but in many places in the world that aren't even that bad, like Northern Africa, McDonald's is a considerably source of sustenance for a populace that lives on pennies a day. In other places, it is considered a restaurant of high quality for a night out.
Getting rid of slaughterhouses and corporations like Mcdonalds only hurts the poorest of people in the world. So if you want to be vegan for health reasons (personally, I think being vegetarian is slightly healther, you need very little meat in your diet) that's fine, but being a vegan-activist is something only people with a limited point of view and a position of luxury can afford. And you may think you're poor, but you have no idea what poor is until you leave your rich country.
TL;DR Eat meat
From the top to the bottom your arguments are wrong in my opinion. That there is no such thing as vegetarianism in poor countries is because people struggle to get by, and the can't afford to eat meat every day. And the problem as described in this video is the mass caging and mass slaughter in modern slaughterhouses. This crass cruelty that animals are treated worse than anything you would wish your worst enemy. If people eat meat like it's something special, maybe every other week or so... it would just be awesome.
Eating less meat does not hurt the poorest - it helps them. Producing meat requires unbelievable amounts of soil (and water, at that) in order to get the amount of forage required. And that drives the prices for staple foods like grain, rice, and vegetables up, up and up. Which hurts the poorest of people. If there wouldn't be such a giant demand for forage, there would also be less ground water poisoning because of less fertilization with poisonous chemicals.
And McDonald's is not a sustenance for a populace that lives on pennies a day. Nowhere. That doesn't make any sense. Where the hell did you come up with that?
You might say that you will not change your lifestyle and eating habits, but at least give vegetarians credit and don't mock / bash on them. I like meat. I love meat. But by not eating it, I contribute to making this world a better place, for reasons above.
EPT
