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On February 09 2011 23:17 Robstickle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 23:11 Supamang wrote:
Instead, Id rather answer your question with question of my own (yeah, I hate it when people do that, but I couldnt resist this time). Why do animals deserve more rights than us humans? You suggest that humans endorsing meat consumption need to justify why they have more rights than the animals they eat. But animals are allowed to consume meat without being judged harshly by vegans like yourself. Why do animals have that right while humans do not? Because animals (unlike us) don't exactly have concepts of morality and ethics, they're incapable of understanding that they inflict suffering when they kill other animals. Essentially it's the lack of mental faculty that does it.
Well I would not say animals in general, some of them definitely have some rudimentary concepts of ethics. That's probably one reason why consider some animals closer to us than to other animals and am against killing them for food. For example primates.
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On February 09 2011 23:09 StarStruck wrote:
Kira people like you piss me off. Not only have you attempted to backseat mod, but you have:
a) used as many strawmans/ad homimens as those against you
b) tried to force your values on other people
0 respect; 0 credibility. As long as meat is still around, people will still eat it. You don't like it. That's fine, but as long as you keep this tirade up, you won't make many friends here.
I'm not going to nitpick against your values or religion ever. Just don't force it on others. At least be tactful.
I don't care what you eat. I do get offended by terrible arguments. I don't try to force my arguments on anyone. So 2) is wrong. 1) is wrong too. I never made an ad hominem argument. I did call people 'idiots'. Doesn't matter. My arguments don't become bad just because I hurt your feeling. And I never strawmaned either. Just because you, and the guy that made the argument, don't see that my Reductio ad absurdum holds up doesn't mean it is a straw man.
I don't eat meat because it is more ethical. Doesn't matter for anything else I do. I also don't own a car or a mobile phone, btw. I don't think there is any inconsistency. But even if there is, so what? You are really going to call people out because they are inconsistently more moral than you are? Yeah, we are still doing some damage by being alive. So what? You are going to call me out for existing? If I choose to exist it doesn't matter how big my ecological footprint is and how many animal rights I pay to violate? Really?
Pissing off people like you is exactly my goal. Now I only hope you learned your lesson.
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On February 09 2011 13:17 babyface wrote:
good thread backed hard. vegan death squad unite fuck humans etc.
Good job! this requires you to fuck urself.
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It's still from an American perspective.
Demand well raised animals instead of your american-in-a-box fed animals and problem is solved.
Don't have to go Vegan, only Sith's and idiots deals in absolutes.
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Is the video based on the worst of the worst, in order to spark an "emotional attachment" and change peoples' perception about meat? Yes, it is totally biased. Does this mean that eating meat is fine then, as not all meat farms are this bad? No.
So many stupid people exist, even in an "intelligent" community such as TL. *sigh*
In response to some posts:
It is not scientifically proven that we need meat as part of our diet. A bunch of research papers coming to this conclusion =/= proof. One can find an equal amount of research papers to suggest the opposite. (Imo refer to the living and walking proof right next to us. Many of the healthiest people I know are vegan/vegetarian, and don't have health issues due to their diet.)
+ Show Spoiler +TBH I guarantee you that the vaaaaast majority (if not 100%) of peoples' (I suppose I'm refering to Westerners) health problems originate from their diet. I have 0 proof and understand this sounds crazy, just putting it there so I can say I told you so later when we are spirits in heaven or w/e.
Also, people who say that human lives are so important that the suffering of animals is inconsequential, that we are at the top of the food chain, blah blah.... one retard even said that the only reason other useless animals existed on the planet is because we didn't go out of our way to destroy them..... seriously a lot of posters in this thread totally letting down the human race here (I hope aliens aren't watching us right now!). All of these people are stupid. There is no need for animals to suffer in order to "save lives" or "feed children." Some have stated that animal farming is actually grossly inefficient, someone quoting a ratio of 1 meat meal = 7 veg meals. I have no idea where this statistic comes from, but the point is that we don't need to farm animals (even if it was in a perfectly nice and acceptable way) to sustain human life, in fact we would be much better off if we didn't farm animals at all.
To the people who say they would torture 1 million cows to save 1 human life:
1. I bet you can't, unless you are a sadistic fuck (clearly some exist).
2. Quite heroic of you, but actually regardless of how many cows you torture (or breed and slaughter for food) you aren't actually saving any lives. Vegetarian farming is more productive, one might say devoting resources to the meat industry as the same as taking away resources from vegetarian farming, reducing the amount of people we are able to feed. Why not put all that torturing energy into something that actually does save lives, like growing some (organic) crops perhaps =)
3. If you are all of a sudden soooo concerned about saving/feeding humans, what the fuck are you doing being a fat shit infront of a computer with a random job that supports only you and those around you. Why don't you get off your arse and actually go save lives, for real. How about those starving people in Africa (which apparently the meat industry affects, though I'm unsure of the specifics). If you're having second thoughts, perhaps make a donation to the charities which support the people that actually DO get off their asses and save lives.
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I totally agree with this! We cannot harm any animals. But plants have feelings too, you know! When you rip off the fruits of an apple tree, they suffer terrible terrible pain! Ow wait...
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On February 09 2011 23:37 Krehlmar wrote:
It's still from an American perspective.
Demand well raised animals instead of your american-in-a-box fed animals and problem is solved.
Don't have to go Vegan, only Sith's and idiots deals in absolutes.
Caring better for animals is actually worse for some arguments that are made to be vegetarian. The resources it costs to care for animals that are to be slaughtered is one of the main arguments. Taking better care only makes it worse, not better.
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There's actually no arguement against vegitarianism or veganism except for during childhood development, which this thread totally shouldn't get into. It's a personal choice from the individual.
You can't escape animal products entirely, but this shouldn't be a blanket reason on the entire subject. The "if you don't eat it something else will" arguement doesn't have any application to this topic unless everyone went out and hunted for their meals, which is impossible in every developed country. If the person decides not to eat it, the demand goes down (no matter how fractionally), and the suppliers (ranchers/farmers) will just not inseminate as many feed animals as last year. There may be some waste initially, but that is leveled out fairly quickly.
I'm not a vegitarian myself or a vegan, I just like meat too much. I think that the arguement here is that non-vegitarians really hate it when the really annoying vegitarians/vegans shove it in our face, and are now just blaming all of them with the frustration.
Story time:
My Mom's side of the family is a farm family, the dairy sector. My Uncle and Aunt with their children run the farm now, by Grandfather does a few things but he's fairly old (He has harness racing horses, one of which was bred there, then sold for a couple million). Anyway, the farmers association does an "open house" where which people can travel to specified farms and look around, see what's up and all that.
So this "animal rights" person, in polite terms, comes in and tells them that they are horrible people keeping cows like that and yada yada that whole speal. This person was so rude and insensitive that she reduced my aunt to tears, my Uncle and everyone who works there cares about the animals, and are always heatbroken when one has to be put down. They generally give everything they can for the well being of the dairy cattle.
Besides the fact that there are no wild cows anymore, and cows are the dumbest things you have ever seen. One hung itself accidentally once... I'm not putting them down, dairy cows are well tempered and friendly, sometimes too friendly with the tongue :|
Shortened: I just hate those types of people who have no idea of the whole picture, but yet dish out their opinion anyway.
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Whats so bad about cruelty is the real question. It cost a lot of money to be humane.
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On February 09 2011 23:17 Robstickle wrote:
...
Because animals (unlike us) don't exactly have concepts of morality and ethics, they're incapable of understanding that they inflict suffering when they kill other animals. ...
Actually the suffering occurs before the slaughtering, killing cattle with a bolt gun is painless... Holding them in cages for almost all their lives is cruel and is indeed something that should be adressed at some point.
Breeding and killing animals for food is the most natural thing in the world and thusly not immoral, more so i want you to know that without livestock husbandry we wouldnt be this technologically advanced, especially regarding science/medicine.
It is either eat or get eaten.
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On February 09 2011 23:40 HardCorey wrote:
Whats so bad about cruelty is the real question. It cost a lot of money to be humane.
Consistency would be a main concern. What stops aliens from applying that concept to us, or even us applying that concept to ourselves. Why use anaesthetics in medicine?
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Because we're sentient and they're not?
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On February 09 2011 18:41 thehitman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 13:36 Lexpar wrote:On February 09 2011 13:33 thehitman wrote:
Its been scientifically proven numerous times (just google it) that humans need meat. If you don't consume any meat and not to mention even animal products(vegans) you are going to have some health problems since you are not in taking all the nutrients your body needs.
Since time people have killed animals to feed and other animals kill other animals to feed, its just the way it is.
And there are so many people on this planet that you can't just go in the wild and kill 1000 pigs to feed a small city (30.000 population), so we have to raise them in a farm and then kill them.
Its a bit brutal, but what options do we have? - Be vegan and be unhealthy, be vegetarian and forbit yourself the pleasures of eating meat or starve to death.
I'm more concerned about people killing wild animals for fur and ivory(equals money) rather than us raising animals to feed ourselves.
I'm more worried about all the trees we are cutting down and how many animals that kills, rather than raising animals to feed ourselves. I'm not going to research your argument. That makes no sense within the scheme of a debate. Why should I work to prove you right? If you want to make a point (that's fundamentally wrong in the first place), at least attempt support it. I've not heard of a single study that "proves" that human beings need meat". Every nutrient, vitamin, fat, and protein that is found in livestock can be found in plants. Prove me wrong? I'm not going to waste my time to prove vegans wrong. You don't eat meat and animal products=more for me, thank you very much. If vegans don't care about their health why should I be forcing them to care. I'm a bit indifferent about vegetarians because they at least eat eggs, cheese, drink milk, etc and consume their daily nutrients.
I'm claiming that vegans and vegetarians can live a healthy lifestyle. I reference the fact that all the nutrients human beings needs can be found inside plants. Even the hardest ones to find: B12 and Omega fatty acids can still be found in soy products and flax seeds. That's my claim. I can link you the Wikipedia page on veganism, but I doubt you'd read it.
More importantly, the constraints of a vegan diet encourage a very low intake of harmful fats and cholesterol. Every omnivore in this thread is arguing from the standpoint of the pristine and perfect omnivorous diet: Moderate portions of lean meat, large amounts of vegetables, fruits, and complex grains. Very few omnivores actually eat like that. Fatty cuts of red meat, butter and cheese are daily stapled of millions. If you want to argue that someone who eats like that is inherently healthier than a person who doesn't eat meat, then I'm afraid your argument relies on nothing but stereotypes and generalities.
You were the one to initially "waste your time" and come into this thread to tell all the vegans how it was scientifically proven, empirically, that they are not healthy.
So unless you can prove me wrong, I ask you, whats the difference between killing an elephant for Ivory when you could use a plastic, than killing a cow for steak when you could eat a bean?
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Perhaps you should read your posts again then and get off your high horse. You aren't the solution. You are the problem.
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damn I got the sudden urge for some baby back ribs
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This Video is just another Sensationalist Propaganda Piece of s**t put together by the NPO Vegans Organizations who benefit from donations.
I don't know what makes me more sick.
You can take any subject matter and make it completely despicable with the correct footage, narrative, and editing.
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Though I agree Kosher and Halal meat is a godamn stupidity. Seriously religious freedome does not go above emotional and cruality in my book. Show the animals some godamn respect for the love of everything good and kill them fast and painlessly... anything else is just a idiom.
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veganism and even vegetarianism is a HUGE luxury. 70% of the world would laugh straight in your face if you suggested to them to only eat plant products.
40 thousand children die EVERYDAY in africa from starvation. take a moment for that figure to sink in. thats like 3 airplanes crashing everyday. but oh wait they're black people no one from the western world gives a fuck about them anyway.
most of these bullshit people are rich as fuck living in air conditioned houses and suddenly one day get some sort of spiritual midlife crisis and decide to "lead a better life" by not eating meat.
so. full. of. shit.
and yes there are ways of getting the omega 3 fatty oils from god knows what the fuck pills, but if you cannot sprinkle them all over the world for free then shut the fuck up.
meat is a VERY luxurious product. i've been to villages in china where they only eat a pound of meat a year. A GOD DAMN YEAR. the only reason why meat is so cheap is because cows are fed corn which is subsidized HEAVILY by the US government. stop that and drive the price of beef up and your demand will drop drastically. fatass americans eating too much anyway.
these videos are just so juvenile and one sided its almost painful to watch. yea if it really helps you sleep at night then fine you can live a life of not killing animals. you probably have a heater in the winter and have cold drinks in the summer. but if i put you somewhere less well off (which is the majority of the world) and let you not be able to fill your stomach for 5 years you will be singing a very VERY different song.
i remember a show where they took kids of rich parents who wouldnt eat anything and put them in the poor villages of china where they could only eat corn porridge and salted cabbage. they came back and ate like there was no tomorrow.
i seriously have no problem at all going out and slitting a cows throat. that's their life it's just too bad. are you going to go into the african plains and serve the lions and tigers flax seeds so they can stop killing your precious antelopes and giraffes? get real. it's a harsh and very unfair world, and this issue is just so waaaay off on a tangent it really has nothing to do with the more pressing problems of the world.
shit dude go sell some medicine for the UN or something. jesus christ.
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I don't know if that is sarcasm and Poe's law and all. But all mammals are sentient.
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Canada9720 Posts
Bad OP. Awful discussion. Yet another polarizing thread turned ugly.
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EPT
