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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:13 Sm3agol wrote: So because we are smarter than animals, we shouldn't eat them? Eh? You're making the grand assumption that eating meat is wrong in the first place. I happen to disagree with you. I do in fact not make that assumption. Please stop repeatedly strawmanning my posts. | ||
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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
Re: "Meat tastes good" - Taste does not justify supporting practices that produce suffering. You wouldn't eat a human if they taste good because of the suffering that would be a result. Now listen to your internal dialogue saying "BUT THEY'RE AN ANIMAL!". That's arbitrary considering it is not the sex, race, or species of an individual that is a major concern in ethical matters. Suffering is a major concern, if not the prime concern, in most ethical evaluations. Re: "There are more important problems in the world" - how does eating different food take up so much time that you cannot help out with other problems in the world? Point being, yes there are many problems in the world, and being vegetarian only means what you eat is different, so vegetarians can still help out with other problems in the world than unnecessary animal suffering. Re: "I've seen pastures of cows at a local farm..." - those are the minority. The majority, sadly, are from factory farming. Factory farming is more efficient and cost-effective, yet results in significantly more unnecessary suffering. | ||
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Body_Shield
Canada3368 Posts
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:24 mcc wrote: Except for being human, there is no big line line as far as killing for eating goes (of course as everything in real life it is more complicated, as factors like killing 1000 bisons "for eating" when in the end only 2 will be actually eaten). I am all for drawing that line beneath humans somewhat, but I never put that much time into thinking about details or if there is any reasonable justification for it, it just feels right. I would exclude animals like primates, dolphins, ... hope you see the pattern. But as far as eating is concerned any line except animal/plant or humans/rest one is arbitrary. And the line animal/plant without also including humans/rest line has its own set of problems if you would like to apply it consistently to other areas. I think the best approach is to just accept that it is continuum or at least a lot of different groups on some scale and draw the line somewhere in reasonably safe point, same as with other stuff like when to allow abortions. Yes, exactly. I think that it's a continuum too, but wanted to hear your take on where you would logically draw that line and say "that organism is too intelligent for us to kill it even if we do it painlessly and for the most efficient method of production available". | ||
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couches
618 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On February 09 2011 21:57 BrogMeister wrote: Source please. I would guess milk and cheese is an evolutionary irrelevant source of nutrition. As far as milk goes really ?  , you think that that thing that all newborns drink is evolutionary irrelevant ? And even if I would not take it as literally and considered animal milk it is still highly evolutionary relevant, or do you think evolution stopped working when we domesticated the animals ?As for the rest, source for what do you want ? The guy I reacted to made claims that were unsupported. The only claim I made is that as far as benefits go vegetarians are better off than vegans. I would think being able to live without supplements is benefit. And that is if I accept that as far as health goes the two are the same. | ||
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:26 Supamang wrote: Yup, I agree. Forgoing free choice would be putting yourself down. But most of us in this thread arent ignoring that choice. We are actively choosing to put our own desires to eat meat in front of our sympathy for suffering animals. Yea, animal cruelty sucks, I wish those farms that are being cruel would treat their animals better (before slaughtering them for consumption lol). But I like to eat meat, those few instances of excessive cruelty won't stop me from eating it. Just like how blood diamonds wont stop a loving couple from buying an engagement ring, how environmental hazards wont stop people from driving cars or using electricity, how animal testing wont stop people from using pretty much any critical medical innovation in our modern day, etc. Oh, and you should really choose another argument. All youre trying to do is shame us meat eaters into thinking that we are somehow "sub-human". Theres no logical reasoning behind your argument. By putting yourself on a high horse and judging us to be "below the level of animals", you really make an ass of yourself. I bolded the part where you expressly favour instinct over reasoning. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On February 09 2011 21:58 enzym wrote: Meat consumption creates problems by inflicting unnecessary suffering (current form of meat harvesting), being inefficient (requiring more land to sustain a population than non-meat diet) and by releasing gases emanating from dung which can have an impact on global climate. I haven't read anything invalidating these claims yet. If you have any information in that regard please share. Way to not read my post, did you actually see any mention of meat eating in that post. | ||
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MiraMax
Germany532 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:22 Sm3agol wrote: Wow, that's quite the deviance in argument. I'm pretty sure humans weren't meant to fly either, herp derp. If eating meat was bad for humans, then we wouldn't have evolved with the ability to eat it. You're the people saying humans eating meat is unnatural...as if we haven't been eating it for umpteen thousand years. First, I never said it's "unnatural" that humans eat animals, only that it is hardly relevant whether it is natural or not, but I guess you understood by now that this argument of yours is not doing any work for you. Because humans are fundamentally equals. To each other, not to the tasty piece of meat sitting in my freezer atm. Tasty animals are not my equals. Until they develop the ability to interact with us in a reasonable way, I'll continue to eat them. You are hardly making sense to me!? First you make an argument from speciism and then peddle back and allow them rights in principle if only their cognitive abilities were more advanced. Which of the two are you arguing for? Both? Because we are at the top of the food chain, and they serve a useful purpose to the human race. So their opinion doesn't matter. And it can't matter because it isn't an opinion....it's merely their instinct. Humans are animals too and their suffering from pain or emotional distress is not "an opinion" either, but an automatic/instintive reaction of a sentient being to external stimuli. The position of any animal in the "food chain" is completely irrelevant. If you take this argument to its logical conclusion you end up with: "it's okay for me to do, because I can hardly be stopped doing it". | ||
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Kirameki
96 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:30 Body_Shield wrote: Will some of the vegan/vegitarian community return to eating meat when they finally get it tank grown? After I stopped eating meat I slowly developed an irrational repulsion towards meat. I used to like most kinds of meat. But I always had issues with the consistency. Like the fat, cartilage, ligaments, etc. Now the idea is quite repulsive. Most vegetarians I know say they would like to eat meat and. I guess when they smell meat being cooked the smell must stir their appetite. To me it is repulsive. Therefore, I am not sure. If they can tank grow stuff I would like to eat some fish again. But still it is strange to eat tissue that matches the tissue of your own body so closely. Would everyone have no problems eating tank grown meat that is grown out of human DNA? Also, I think it's time for mods to hand out warnings to all the people with fallacious arguments like 'If I can be immoral, it can not be immoral but it is just natural'. I am seeing some of the worst stuff ever.This is almost going towards creationist-level when it comes to fallacies. | ||
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BrogMeister
Sweden22 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:10 TrinitySC wrote: You realize you just helped prove my point with that first sentence, right? But it is true that farming, the way it is done now, is a major source of global warming. It doesn't have to be, though, and it's much more realistic to have people buy organic meat than to have them stop eating meat altogether. As your second paragraph... you do realize that's what having superior intelligence is all about, don't you? That's how we got this far in the first place, and that's how we're staying here. Civilization itself is grounded in, and would have never got this far without, exploitation of less intelligent animals. Please describe your point in one sentence. If meatproduction were to be optimized from a global climate perspective, it would probably involve creating conditions even worse for the animals. Organic production are more concerned about pesticides and local environment than about climate. I do recognize that using our intelligence to exploit nature and expand our civilization is a central part of the human success story, but I do also recognize that we seem to fail in using our intelligence to create a fair, sustainable society even when we seemingly have sufficient resources to do so. | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
Oh by the way, don't use computers or phones etc. The mining of the materials is killing apes / monkies in Africa. So no more technology please. After all we don't want to contradict ourselves do we? | ||
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Kirameki
96 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:42 Mitchlew wrote: I really hope all of you ethical vegetarians never wear a leather belt or sit on a leather seat, thats unethical! Oh by the way, don't use computers or phones etc. The mining of the materials is killing apes / monkies in Africa. So no more technology please. After all we don't want to contradict ourselves do we? This is just an example. People murder for the stuff in your mobile phones. Does that mean I can murder you? If not, why do you have a phone? | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:34 enzym wrote: I bolded the part where you expressly favour instinct over reasoning. Thanks, but thats not favouring instinct over reasoning. Thats weighing how much I care about either choice, and choosing my own satisfaction over another animal's well being. You can call me an asshole but you cant call me stupid. | ||
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smokeyhoodoo
United States1021 Posts
On February 09 2011 21:57 BrogMeister wrote: Source please. I would guess milk and cheese is an evolutionary irrelevant source of nutrition. That's true for most people but northern Europeans actually are adapted for drinking milk and dairy products into adult hood, so it was clearly an integral source of nutrition since it initiated natural selection against people who can't drink milk. Heres a picture from Wikipedia that shows lactose intolerance for each country. ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Laktoseintoleranz-1.svg/800px-Laktoseintoleranz-1.svg.png) | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:41 Kirameki wrote: After I stopped eating meat I slowly developed an irrational repulsion towards meat. I used to like most kinds of meat. But I always had issues with the consistency. Like the fat, cartilage, ligaments, etc. Now the idea is quite repulsive. Most vegetarians I know say they would like to eat meat and. I guess when they smell meat being cooked the smell must stir their appetite. To me it is repulsive. Therefore, I am not sure. If they can tank grow stuff I would like to eat some fish again. But still it is strange to eat tissue that matches the tissue of your own body so closely. Would everyone have no problems eating tank grown meat that is grown out of human DNA? Also, I think it's time for mods to hand out warnings to all the people with fallacious arguments like 'If I can be immoral, it can not be immoral but it is just natural'. I am seeing some of the worst stuff ever.This is almost going towards creationist-level when it comes to fallacies. You sound like a true vegan, and you are repulsed by the thought or meat, so you are ok in my book. But there are people who just do it because, and that pisses me off for some reason. | ||
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
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BrogMeister
Sweden22 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:42 Mitchlew wrote: I really hope all of you ethical vegetarians never wear a leather belt or sit on a leather seat, thats unethical! Oh by the way, don't use computers or phones etc. The mining of the materials is killing apes / monkies in Africa. So no more technology please. After all we don't want to contradict ourselves do we? This is the worst kind of argument. If you can't change the world all at once, don't do anything. Is that your point? | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
On February 09 2011 13:15 FrostyTreats wrote: I'm glad we live in a society where you can make such lifestyle choices. And it wouldn't be American if you didn't force it on other people. 90% of vegans treat me like shit when I tell them I have no gripes with eating meat and love it. Apparently the butcher who I've known for most of my life tortures all of his animals, even though I've seen the living conditions and process and it's absolutely completely humane. They're treated better than most pets I've seen. It's not EATING meat that's the issue, it's corporations playing into consumerism and then trying to get everything out the door for the cheapest dollar. I agree what corporations do is fucking sick, something should be done about it =\ I hate seeing, even thinking about cows getting tortured. | ||
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Kirameki
96 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:47 GreEny K wrote: You sound like a true vegan, and you are repulsed by the thought or meat, so you are ok in my book. But there are people who just do it because, and that pisses me off for some reason. Wait, my bad arguments you respect. But my good arguments piss you off? Well, I guess that goes to show the logic of the anti-vegan/vegetarians here. BTW, I am not vegan. Anyway, all your meat eaters should be happy you are born this generation and not 50 years into the future. It won't take long until we frown upon the time where animals didn't have their universal basic rights protected. | ||
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