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On February 09 2011 22:44 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 22:34 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:26 Supamang wrote:On February 09 2011 22:03 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:00 Sm3agol wrote:
If humans weren't supposed to eat meat, then our bodies wouldn't be able to handle eating meat.
Meat is tasty.
There is nothing morally wrong with eating meat that I see. They are lower than us on the food chain, and their animal contemporaries certainly have no problem with ripping them to shreds and eating them alive. Why aren't you people crying out for the murder of all predators to keep all these poor animals from being mangled by lions and wolves and such?
It is good for you.
I eat meat, and don't ever intend to stop. Because those other animals don't share human level of awareness and reasoning capability. Animals have little choice to act on anything but instincts. Humans do have that choice and if you do not make use of those capabilities but choose to ignore them then you are degrading yourself back to animal level, in fact placing yourself below the level of animals, because animals do not have such a choice. Yup, I agree. Forgoing free choice would be putting yourself down. But most of us in this thread arent ignoring that choice. We are actively choosing to put our own desires to eat meat in front of our sympathy for suffering animals. Yea, animal cruelty sucks, I wish those farms that are being cruel would treat their animals better (before slaughtering them for consumption lol). But I like to eat meat, those few instances of excessive cruelty won't stop me from eating it. Just like how blood diamonds wont stop a loving couple from buying an engagement ring, how environmental hazards wont stop people from driving cars or using electricity, how animal testing wont stop people from using pretty much any critical medical innovation in our modern day, etc. Oh, and you should really choose another argument. All youre trying to do is shame us meat eaters into thinking that we are somehow "sub-human". Theres no logical reasoning behind your argument. By putting yourself on a high horse and judging us to be "below the level of animals", you really make an ass of yourself. I bolded the part where you expressly favour instinct over reasoning. Thanks, but thats not favouring instinct over reasoning. Thats weighing how much I care about either choice, and choosing my own satisfaction over another animal's well being. You can call me an asshole but you cant call me stupid.
That's what I wanted to hear. Honest people are more likeable than stupid people, so my hat seriously goes off to you (I think). It is consistent in its own way, even if you admit to ignoring to address why you deserve more "rights" than an animal. On the other hand doing that is exactly what animals do and might makes right is also what they do, so I'm not sure whether to welcome you or not. Hum. Anyways, just wanted to acknowledge your reply.
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On February 09 2011 22:48 BrogMeister wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 22:42 Mitchlew wrote:
I really hope all of you ethical vegetarians never wear a leather belt or sit on a leather seat, thats unethical!
Oh by the way, don't use computers or phones etc. The mining of the materials is killing apes / monkies in Africa. So no more technology please. After all we don't want to contradict ourselves do we? This is the worst kind of argument. If you can't change the world all at once, don't do anything. Is that your point?
No my point is how much these "ethical" vegetarians think they are all high and mighty and above those who enjoy eating meat because "Meat is murderer" Yet they constantly contradict themselves with the points I made.
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On February 09 2011 22:44 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 22:34 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:26 Supamang wrote:On February 09 2011 22:03 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:00 Sm3agol wrote:
If humans weren't supposed to eat meat, then our bodies wouldn't be able to handle eating meat.
Meat is tasty.
There is nothing morally wrong with eating meat that I see. They are lower than us on the food chain, and their animal contemporaries certainly have no problem with ripping them to shreds and eating them alive. Why aren't you people crying out for the murder of all predators to keep all these poor animals from being mangled by lions and wolves and such?
It is good for you.
I eat meat, and don't ever intend to stop. Because those other animals don't share human level of awareness and reasoning capability. Animals have little choice to act on anything but instincts. Humans do have that choice and if you do not make use of those capabilities but choose to ignore them then you are degrading yourself back to animal level, in fact placing yourself below the level of animals, because animals do not have such a choice. Yup, I agree. Forgoing free choice would be putting yourself down. But most of us in this thread arent ignoring that choice. We are actively choosing to put our own desires to eat meat in front of our sympathy for suffering animals. Yea, animal cruelty sucks, I wish those farms that are being cruel would treat their animals better (before slaughtering them for consumption lol). But I like to eat meat, those few instances of excessive cruelty won't stop me from eating it. Just like how blood diamonds wont stop a loving couple from buying an engagement ring, how environmental hazards wont stop people from driving cars or using electricity, how animal testing wont stop people from using pretty much any critical medical innovation in our modern day, etc. Oh, and you should really choose another argument. All youre trying to do is shame us meat eaters into thinking that we are somehow "sub-human". Theres no logical reasoning behind your argument. By putting yourself on a high horse and judging us to be "below the level of animals", you really make an ass of yourself. I bolded the part where you expressly favour instinct over reasoning. Thanks, but thats not favouring instinct over reasoning. Thats weighing how much I care about either choice, and choosing my own satisfaction over another animal's well being. You can call me an asshole but you cant call me stupid.
my thoughts exactly, i do not emphasize with animals, it is food, we breed cattle for this single reason... i mean i would not eat species near extinction, but i sure as hell do not shed a tear when i order meat, that would mean that i would have to cry a river each time i watch the news and OMG some people somewhere died... again!
To the point of global warming, someone uses a car... GUILTY
you eat certain fruit or vegetables during winter... GUILTY
you sit on the interwebz wasting energy... GUILTY
you shower once a day... GUILTY
simple as that, luxury equals pollution, yet why do we live in such a way, because we were born into this society? or because we want a comfortable life? my answer is yes to both, you may choose your answers and i wont stop you if you want to live secluded in a forest with no electrics, but when your berry and cropharvest fails, i bet those squirrels and rabbits look delicious xD
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On February 09 2011 22:42 Mitchlew wrote:
I really hope all of you ethical vegetarians never wear a leather belt or sit on a leather seat, thats unethical!
Oh by the way, don't use computers or phones etc. The mining of the materials is killing apes / monkies in Africa. So no more technology please. After all we don't want to contradict ourselves do we?
I don't what point you're making other than the fact that it's hard to avoid using products which animals had to die for. This doesn't mean you shouldn't try to minimize the number of such products you use, the most obvious way to do so being to stop eating meat.
Really it's also hard to avoid using products which don't involve sweat shop labour. Does this mean you shouldn't try to give preference to companies that don't rely on sweat shops?
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On February 09 2011 22:53 Mitchlew wrote:
No my point is how much these "ethical" vegetarians think they are all high and mighty and above those who enjoy eating meat because "Meat is murderer" Yet they constantly contradict themselves with the points I made.
So in your mind there's only two kinds of people. Those who are ethical and those who are not? And those that are ethical can't exist, so no need for ethics?
This is just stupid. Anyone can see that calling caring for your ecological footprint as long as it is zero 'contradictory', is stupid. Yet you can't.
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On February 09 2011 22:56 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 22:44 Supamang wrote:On February 09 2011 22:34 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:26 Supamang wrote:On February 09 2011 22:03 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:00 Sm3agol wrote:
If humans weren't supposed to eat meat, then our bodies wouldn't be able to handle eating meat.
Meat is tasty.
There is nothing morally wrong with eating meat that I see. They are lower than us on the food chain, and their animal contemporaries certainly have no problem with ripping them to shreds and eating them alive. Why aren't you people crying out for the murder of all predators to keep all these poor animals from being mangled by lions and wolves and such?
It is good for you.
I eat meat, and don't ever intend to stop. Because those other animals don't share human level of awareness and reasoning capability. Animals have little choice to act on anything but instincts. Humans do have that choice and if you do not make use of those capabilities but choose to ignore them then you are degrading yourself back to animal level, in fact placing yourself below the level of animals, because animals do not have such a choice. Yup, I agree. Forgoing free choice would be putting yourself down. But most of us in this thread arent ignoring that choice. We are actively choosing to put our own desires to eat meat in front of our sympathy for suffering animals. Yea, animal cruelty sucks, I wish those farms that are being cruel would treat their animals better (before slaughtering them for consumption lol). But I like to eat meat, those few instances of excessive cruelty won't stop me from eating it. Just like how blood diamonds wont stop a loving couple from buying an engagement ring, how environmental hazards wont stop people from driving cars or using electricity, how animal testing wont stop people from using pretty much any critical medical innovation in our modern day, etc. Oh, and you should really choose another argument. All youre trying to do is shame us meat eaters into thinking that we are somehow "sub-human". Theres no logical reasoning behind your argument. By putting yourself on a high horse and judging us to be "below the level of animals", you really make an ass of yourself. I bolded the part where you expressly favour instinct over reasoning. Thanks, but thats not favouring instinct over reasoning. Thats weighing how much I care about either choice, and choosing my own satisfaction over another animal's well being. You can call me an asshole but you cant call me stupid. my thoughts exactly, i do not emphasize with animals, it is food, we breed cattle for this single reason... i mean i would not eat species near extinction, but i sure as hell do not shed a tear when i order meat, that would mean that i would have to cry a river each time i watch the news and OMG some people somewhere died... again! To the point of global warming, someone uses a car... GUILTY you eat certain fruit or vegetables during winter... GUILTY you sit on the interwebz wasting energy... GUILTY you shower once a day... GUILTY simple as that, luxury equals pollution, yet why do we live in such a way, because we were born into this society? or because we want a comfortable life? my answer is yes to both, you may choose your answers and i wont stop you if you want to live secluded in a forest with no electrics, but when your berry and cropharvest fails, i bet those squirrels and rabbits look delicious xD
I hope you realize that you made a broad generalization. While most of transportation certainly does accelerate the emission of CO2, energy can be generated without the use of fossil fuels and sustainable energy sources such as wind/solar are growing. So as far as global warming goes, transport: guilty, car: probably guilty as well for the vast majority of cases. The other two are not nearly as absolute. But this is off topic.
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I'm a vegetarian and I have no health problems despite "common" belief that it's unhealthy to eat meat. Anyone ponder how much antibiotics, growth hormones, or whatever else is injected into the animal? I don't believe Humans MUST be vegetarian. And IMO going Vegan just for the animal cruelty stuff doesn't last. I don't believe it shows the whole picture. I don't tell my meat-eating friends to ditch off their habit. What I believe is how the current food industry system is completely broken and unsustainable.
THE REASON why this animal factory farm exists is because we made that choice. We wanted cheap meat. and the costs don't reflect on the price. Not only is it cruel, but a big waste of resources and disastrous to the environment. If you look into all the resources thrown into raising a animal to be slaughtered, how can you expect the price to be so low? No wonder Farmers raise the animals this way! IT's CHEAPER AND MORE EFFICIENT.
We choose our lifestyles. We can be aware of the environment around us, or just stay ignorent and believe that this lifestyle can last forever. We've been trashing the earth for this long, anybody can argue their beliefs, everybody has the right. that's the beauty of free will. But perhaps you can ask yourself. When I choose this lifestyle/or habit, What am I saying yes to? Yes to animal cruelty? Yes to destroying the earth? Yes to what? We're all part of it. Everybody is responsible
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This debate tends to only bring up the extremes, it might be comfortable to divide the world into two camps but reality is more complex than that. You don't have to be a vegan to think that the food industry are using cruel methods, nor do you have to support cruel methods to eat meat.
Personally I think that eating meat can be a good thing, but everyone should know how their food was produced so the choice they make is an informed one. I support those who kill their own food, but I don't support those who buy a burger and feel quesy after seeing pictures of how it was manufactured. I don't support food industry that isn't open and honest about its methods and neither should you, but I'm ok with it as long as you're informed and feel good about your choice.
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On February 09 2011 22:57 Robstickle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 22:42 Mitchlew wrote:
I really hope all of you ethical vegetarians never wear a leather belt or sit on a leather seat, thats unethical!
Oh by the way, don't use computers or phones etc. The mining of the materials is killing apes / monkies in Africa. So no more technology please. After all we don't want to contradict ourselves do we? I don't what point you're making other than the fact that it's hard to avoid using products which animals had to die for. This doesn't mean you shouldn't try to minimize the number of such products you use, the most obvious way to do so being to stop eating meat. Really it's also hard to avoid using products which don't involve sweat shop labour. Does this mean you shouldn't try to give preference to companies that don't rely on sweat shops?
Sweat shops are good for a lesser developed countries economy. Worked wonders for Taiwan, once as poor as some African nations now is a pretty big player in computers.
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My argument is: Meat is tasty and if you don't eat it, something else will. (Yes... animals also eat animals)
I generally have nothing against vegans or vegetarians, but trying to force your beliefs on others is just stupid. I'm not saying every vegan/vegetarian is like that, but most of the vocal ones I have met are.
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On February 09 2011 22:59 Kirameki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 22:53 Mitchlew wrote:
No my point is how much these "ethical" vegetarians think they are all high and mighty and above those who enjoy eating meat because "Meat is murderer" Yet they constantly contradict themselves with the points I made. So in your mind there's only two kinds of people. Those who are ethical and those who are not? And those that are ethical can't exist, so no need for ethics? This is just stupid. Anyone can see that calling caring for your ecological footprint as long as it is zero 'contradictory', is stupid. Yet you can't.
Wow how did you come to that conclusion? You guys just think you are more ethical and caring than those of us who eat meat. When in reality everyone has their own faults. Isn't it possible for someone who eats meat to emit less green house gases into the atmosphere by riding to work rather than some vegan hippy who drives around in his vb combi?
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Kira people like you piss me off. Not only have you attempted to backseat mod, but you have:
a) used as many strawmans/ad homimens as those against you
b) tried to force your values on other people
0 respect; 0 credibility. As long as meat is still around, people will still eat it. You don't like it. That's fine, but as long as you keep this tirade up, you won't make many friends here.
I'm not going to nitpick against your values or religion ever. Just don't force it on others. At least be tactful.
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On February 09 2011 22:53 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 22:44 Supamang wrote:On February 09 2011 22:34 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:26 Supamang wrote:On February 09 2011 22:03 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:00 Sm3agol wrote:
If humans weren't supposed to eat meat, then our bodies wouldn't be able to handle eating meat.
Meat is tasty.
There is nothing morally wrong with eating meat that I see. They are lower than us on the food chain, and their animal contemporaries certainly have no problem with ripping them to shreds and eating them alive. Why aren't you people crying out for the murder of all predators to keep all these poor animals from being mangled by lions and wolves and such?
It is good for you.
I eat meat, and don't ever intend to stop. Because those other animals don't share human level of awareness and reasoning capability. Animals have little choice to act on anything but instincts. Humans do have that choice and if you do not make use of those capabilities but choose to ignore them then you are degrading yourself back to animal level, in fact placing yourself below the level of animals, because animals do not have such a choice. Yup, I agree. Forgoing free choice would be putting yourself down. But most of us in this thread arent ignoring that choice. We are actively choosing to put our own desires to eat meat in front of our sympathy for suffering animals. Yea, animal cruelty sucks, I wish those farms that are being cruel would treat their animals better (before slaughtering them for consumption lol). But I like to eat meat, those few instances of excessive cruelty won't stop me from eating it. Just like how blood diamonds wont stop a loving couple from buying an engagement ring, how environmental hazards wont stop people from driving cars or using electricity, how animal testing wont stop people from using pretty much any critical medical innovation in our modern day, etc. Oh, and you should really choose another argument. All youre trying to do is shame us meat eaters into thinking that we are somehow "sub-human". Theres no logical reasoning behind your argument. By putting yourself on a high horse and judging us to be "below the level of animals", you really make an ass of yourself. I bolded the part where you expressly favour instinct over reasoning. Thanks, but thats not favouring instinct over reasoning. Thats weighing how much I care about either choice, and choosing my own satisfaction over another animal's well being. You can call me an asshole but you cant call me stupid. That's what I wanted to hear. Honest people are more likeable than stupid people, so my hat seriously goes off to you (I think). It is consistent in its own way, even if you admit to ignoring to address why you deserve more "rights" than an animal. On the other hand doing that is exactly what animals do and might makes right is also what they do, so I'm not sure whether to welcome you or not. Hum. Anyways, just wanted to acknowledge your reply.
I dont know. I honestly can't answer the question as to why we humans deserve more rights in a way that I can be happy with. I would say that its because we are far smarter and far more powerful that we get to dictate who gets rights and who doesnt, but that seems pretty heartless. It is a little barbaric, but thats how things have always been done through our current day, both for the animal kingdom and for human to human interaction.
Instead, Id rather answer your question with question of my own (yeah, I hate it when people do that, but I couldnt resist this time). Why do animals deserve more rights than us humans? You suggest that humans endorsing meat consumption need to justify why they have more rights than the animals they eat. But animals are allowed to consume meat without being judged harshly by vegans like yourself. Why do animals have that right while humans do not?
Im sure your first answer will be "They can't help themselves. We can, so we should do something about it," but isnt that a bit degrading to a being you see as having equal rights as us? Plants, who try just as hard to live as any thinking living being, get eaten all the time with no complaints. Im guessing this is because they have far less thinking ability than any of us (namely zero thinking ablity). So is the criteria for eating something dependent on cognitive ability? If thats the case, why don't we have the right to eat animals since we clearly have much higher intelligence?
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This OP is really really bad. It's obvious that this kind of debate that has been going on for 29 pages would occur, since the op is what? A scary video (I have not watched the video in the op, not do I intend to) and some personal feelings about it/veganism?
Most discussion in this thread is completely retarded, but still the only thing one could imagine comming from an op like that.
Close thread please?
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I think it's pretty obvious why humans deserve more rights than animals, and if you fail to see this, then maybe you're right about yourself and you don't.
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On February 09 2011 23:11 Supamang wrote:
Instead, Id rather answer your question with question of my own (yeah, I hate it when people do that, but I couldnt resist this time). Why do animals deserve more rights than us humans? You suggest that humans endorsing meat consumption need to justify why they have more rights than the animals they eat. But animals are allowed to consume meat without being judged harshly by vegans like yourself. Why do animals have that right while humans do not?
Because animals (unlike us) don't exactly have concepts of morality and ethics, they're incapable of understanding that they inflict suffering when they kill other animals. Essentially it's the lack of mental faculty that does it.
Also a lot of animals need to eat other animals to exist, if a human finds himself in that position then I don't think many vegetarians or vegans would tell him to just lie down and die instead of eating meat.
Oh you edited:
Im sure your first answer will be "They can't help themselves. We can, so we should do something about it," but isnt that a bit degrading to a being you see as having equal rights as us? Plants, who try just as hard to live as any thinking living being, get eaten all the time with no complaints. Im guessing this is because they have far less thinking ability than any of us (namely zero thinking ablity). So is the criteria for eating something dependent on cognitive ability? If thats the case, why don't we have the right to eat animals since we clearly have much higher intelligence?
Firstly I don't see animals as having equal rights to us, largely because of the cognitive ability. I just don't think the rights difference is big enough to justify eating them when it's not necessary.
By the way as a total aside one thing that does annoy me is vegetarians giving disingenuous reasons to be vegetarian. "Oh you should be vegetarian because it's healthier." No if you want to be healthier go get advice from someone who is actually qualified.
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There's sick things everywhere, the largeness of the world just makes them more common.
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I like that Stealthblue is temp banning/ warning anyone expressing the opinion that the video made them hungry.
I for one will continue to eat meat because I require it to continue physically exerting myself.
And nothing tastes like it.
Nothing.
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On February 09 2011 23:11 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 22:53 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:44 Supamang wrote:On February 09 2011 22:34 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:26 Supamang wrote:On February 09 2011 22:03 enzym wrote:On February 09 2011 22:00 Sm3agol wrote:
If humans weren't supposed to eat meat, then our bodies wouldn't be able to handle eating meat.
Meat is tasty.
There is nothing morally wrong with eating meat that I see. They are lower than us on the food chain, and their animal contemporaries certainly have no problem with ripping them to shreds and eating them alive. Why aren't you people crying out for the murder of all predators to keep all these poor animals from being mangled by lions and wolves and such?
It is good for you.
I eat meat, and don't ever intend to stop. Because those other animals don't share human level of awareness and reasoning capability. Animals have little choice to act on anything but instincts. Humans do have that choice and if you do not make use of those capabilities but choose to ignore them then you are degrading yourself back to animal level, in fact placing yourself below the level of animals, because animals do not have such a choice. Yup, I agree. Forgoing free choice would be putting yourself down. But most of us in this thread arent ignoring that choice. We are actively choosing to put our own desires to eat meat in front of our sympathy for suffering animals. Yea, animal cruelty sucks, I wish those farms that are being cruel would treat their animals better (before slaughtering them for consumption lol). But I like to eat meat, those few instances of excessive cruelty won't stop me from eating it. Just like how blood diamonds wont stop a loving couple from buying an engagement ring, how environmental hazards wont stop people from driving cars or using electricity, how animal testing wont stop people from using pretty much any critical medical innovation in our modern day, etc. Oh, and you should really choose another argument. All youre trying to do is shame us meat eaters into thinking that we are somehow "sub-human". Theres no logical reasoning behind your argument. By putting yourself on a high horse and judging us to be "below the level of animals", you really make an ass of yourself. I bolded the part where you expressly favour instinct over reasoning. Thanks, but thats not favouring instinct over reasoning. Thats weighing how much I care about either choice, and choosing my own satisfaction over another animal's well being. You can call me an asshole but you cant call me stupid. That's what I wanted to hear. Honest people are more likeable than stupid people, so my hat seriously goes off to you (I think). It is consistent in its own way, even if you admit to ignoring to address why you deserve more "rights" than an animal. On the other hand doing that is exactly what animals do and might makes right is also what they do, so I'm not sure whether to welcome you or not. Hum. Anyways, just wanted to acknowledge your reply. I dont know. I honestly can't answer the question as to why we humans deserve more rights in a way that I can be happy with. I would say that its because we are far smarter and far more powerful that we get to dictate who gets rights and who doesnt, but that seems pretty heartless. It is a little barbaric, but thats how things have always been done through our current day, both for the animal kingdom and for human to human interaction. Instead, Id rather answer your question with question of my own (yeah, I hate it when people do that, but I couldnt resist this time). Why do animals deserve more rights than us humans? You suggest that humans endorsing meat consumption need to justify why they have more rights than the animals they eat. But animals are allowed to consume meat without being judged harshly by vegans like yourself. Why do animals have that right while humans do not? Im sure your first answer will be "They can't help themselves. We can, so we should do something about it," but isnt that a bit degrading to a being you see as having equal rights as us? Plants, who try just as hard to live as any thinking living being, get eaten all the time with no complaints. Im guessing this is because they have far less thinking ability than any of us (namely zero thinking ablity). So is the criteria for eating something dependent on cognitive ability? If thats the case, why don't we have the right to eat animals since we clearly have much higher intelligence?
I'll try to answer, but I'm far from having understood that problem entirely myself.
First of all rights and morals (values) don't exist in nature, that is to say that it requires an intellect to come up with such concepts and define what is valuable and what rights are. But that also means that once you have that intellect, you must acknowledge that beings other than you can have rights as well.
To the main question. Why do humans have more rights than animals?
I don't think they do. But I still eat meat and don't think that it is wrong per se to kill in order to harvest meat (so long as you do not inflict unnecessary amounts of suffering, do not waste ressources, etc).
Obviously the main difference between humans and other animals lies with the cognitive ability of both sides. I'd say that it is more wrong to kill a human than to kill another animal, because humans are incredibly aware of their surroundings to the point of making plans about their own future. If you kill a human then those plans are lost. You deny them that future. Animals with less awareness, "shorter plans", lose less by their death, so it is less wrong to kill those animals. You deny them less than you would deny a human.
Best I could come up with so far. Hope that holds a candle somewhere. 
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People that can argue to keep on eating meat and adress the problem in other ways or who simply dissagree with the OP and who do so in a reasonable way I have no qualms with in fact I respect that opinion. Mine is that you need to aproach this problem from another perspective.
I know the US is one of the worst places in the western world for animal rights becaue your right wing politicians put such reverence in the process of uninhibited capitalism and anything that can hurt a market is considered socialist propaganda by them. The problem in all western countries though is the lingering farmer culture and their sense of entitlement to their fading lifestyle, even if that lifestyle includes torturing animals to death.
In Sweden we have a pretty good ammount of "eco" food or food that is marked with a quality mark ensuring that no cruel treatments took place of the animals. Unfortunately that food is considerably more expensive but often also of better quality. I think the focus should be on trying to get a working buisness model for this eco marking stuff and that will take the inhumane farmers out of buisness completely.
And for all you little cunts that actually enjoy that video. I hope you die a horrible death some day, rather sooner than later. Just be aware that you would in fact be murderers and rapists if you weren't well adjusted to society. Because you seemingly have no shred of empathy in your bodies.
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EPT
