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On January 07 2011 14:35 HunterStarcraft wrote:
I don't understand why people speak so poorly of the GSL 2011 format. I find it way more entertaining to watch 4 players play everyone in the group compared to watching 2 distinct 1v1s. I suppose my preference is for match diversity.
Also, there's a lot more content overall with Code S + Code A matches on every day. I wonder how the total match count will compare between GSL 2011 and GSL 1-3. :\
The GSL is the best SC2 tournament. It's pretty obvious that these Korean players are the best in the world. Why would I want to watch foreigners who would get absolutely rofflestomped at this Korean tournament??
actually genius there a alot of foreigners in the gsl, and some of them even in the tip top finalists.
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On January 07 2011 14:28 udgnim wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think Blizzard is doing a crappy job with the map pool, but the news reporting is blatantly trying to rile up controversy. here is a game with Bisu vs Calm which looks like it has pretty full seating here is the GSL group stage for Boxer's match. it has decent saturation of seating http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors1/vod/58864here is a game with Stork vs keke. omg so many empty seats. BW must be dieing
I'm pretty sure gomtv BW leagues were much less popular then OSL/MSL.
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On January 07 2011 14:41 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 14:31 cozzE wrote:
wow at overreacting completely to all of this. Look at where brood war was 6 months after its release also :/.
It definitely has huge appeal in Korea, just look at its population in comparison to the NA server currently (even with the US having a huge population advantage over it also). KR: ~430,000 players and NA at ~900,000. Shows the Koreans will just have to warm to it over time.
These posts are just really childish and frustrating =\. SC2 has a huge leg-up in it's evolution though because of BW. It's unfair to compare the two games along similar linear timelines.
Yes, but I think most of us are greatly overestimating how advanced SC2's timeline is.
Is it more balanced already? Probably.
Is the game understood well enough to where macro games are common? No, but maps are mainly to blame for that.
Have we had glimpses of SC2 that in every way felt as exciting as BW? I have! Mana vs Naama, TLO vs Nazgul or whatever that famous beta game was, Boxer a few days ago working on his 'true max' strategy, and many many more.
The balance may be further along, but until players really have a year to secure their reputation and create more anticipation/drama/styles, then I don't think we can fairly assess SC2's SoTG.
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Well SC2 just got started and still new, BW has been here for 10 years?
I would think that SC2 -> BW will happen
From a fan who watched BW and SC2 point of view, I must say that it's a lot exciting watching BW than SC2. And i think everyone will agree with me?
SC2 need better maps, games is still in progress so balance is not there yet
SC2 still growing, don't we have team games now? SC2 is more popular in NA and EU tho
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I want to echo the statement that there have just been too many GSLs. It's like Activision churning out Guitar Hero games, eventually it just gets to be too much. One GSL per month is just kinda ridiculous.
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On January 07 2011 14:50 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 14:35 HunterStarcraft wrote:
I don't understand why people speak so poorly of the GSL 2011 format. I find it way more entertaining to watch 4 players play everyone in the group compared to watching 2 distinct 1v1s. I suppose my preference is for match diversity.
Also, there's a lot more content overall with Code S + Code A matches on every day. I wonder how the total match count will compare between GSL 2011 and GSL 1-3. :\
The GSL is the best SC2 tournament. It's pretty obvious that these Korean players are the best in the world. Why would I want to watch foreigners who would get absolutely rofflestomped at this Korean tournament?? actually genius there a alot of foreigners in the gsl, and some of them even in the tip top finalists.
How many foriegners are S class? Idra, Jinro, Loner, Sen (??), Ret just lost in A class, is Haypro even A class?? Who were you thinking of?
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On January 07 2011 14:55 HunterStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 14:50 charlie420247 wrote:On January 07 2011 14:35 HunterStarcraft wrote:
I don't understand why people speak so poorly of the GSL 2011 format. I find it way more entertaining to watch 4 players play everyone in the group compared to watching 2 distinct 1v1s. I suppose my preference is for match diversity.
Also, there's a lot more content overall with Code S + Code A matches on every day. I wonder how the total match count will compare between GSL 2011 and GSL 1-3. :\
The GSL is the best SC2 tournament. It's pretty obvious that these Korean players are the best in the world. Why would I want to watch foreigners who would get absolutely rofflestomped at this Korean tournament?? actually genius there a alot of foreigners in the gsl, and some of them even in the tip top finalists. How many foriegners are S class? Idra, Jinro, Loner, Sen (??), Ret just lost in A class, is Haypro even A class?? Who were you thinking of?
Hes prob saying foreigners that participate in the GSL
more and more foreigners are attending the GSL not to mention EG house in Korea soon
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On January 07 2011 14:55 Jtn wrote:
I want to echo the statement that there have just been too many GSLs. It's like Activision churning out Guitar Hero games, eventually it just gets to be too much. One GSL per month is just kinda ridiculous.
This. The viewership can't be expected to attend every single match on every single day, especially if they are just early group stages.
Despite the worries, the Korean SC2 scene is still growing. I think GOM just overestimated its growth and thus fit in too much GSL for the average viewer to digest.
I wouldn't be worried about the audience switching between BW and SC2. I would be more worried if SC2 pros switched back into BW or outright quit, which I have yet to see.
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On January 07 2011 14:09 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:44 TrainSamurai wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why sc2 players are obsessed with Esports? Seriously it looks like an unhealthy obsession. umm, TL isnt a starcraft 2 site. Its a site dedicated to starcraft pro gaming. The site is built around following professional starcraft. And you wonder why we might stress it a bit?
The site was built around BW, sc2 came later and we shouldn't just say SC when we mean SC2 and BW because "they're two different games"  .
But yes I get your point but i was pointing to the unhealthy cases, like paying money for stuff you don't like :/ . Look I'm not saying you must not do these things because it is your business what you do with your money but I'm just pointing out that a lot of people might be manipulated by Blizzard.
And I would also like to point out that some of the sc2 critics aren't just people blinded by hate, we bought the game SO OBVIOUSLY WE WANT TO LOVE IT.
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There has been a ton of very good points in this thread and I have to agree that
1) Maps
2)All ins
3)Too many games(5 nights in a row is to much)
4) Lack of Sex(yes this is true, booth girls ftw)
5) and some other random points
Fixing the maps could possibly fix the first three.
Cmon if your an entertainment company #4 should be a no brainer.
I know this game has a bright future and it will succeed, where just going through a bit of a dry spell.
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Look at the bisu game on destination. That is a 1v1 map done right. Id love to see Iccup remake that and then try and do a marine all in on that map. Its a 1v1 map but its fucking huge.
If GOMTV could just release one good "macro" map I would bet so much money that you would so many people tune into that map when it was played due to the quality of games it would have.
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On January 07 2011 14:28 kwkwookw wrote:
much of the stuff pros do in sc2 is something normal players like us can't do. there is no oooh-ahhh factor. REMEMBER the marine control against lurker during the boxer/nada era? jd's mutalisk control? kal or stork's reaver control? flash's "maphacks"? LOL more importantly, it blurs the line that distinguishes pro and non-pro level. how could pro basketball exist if any of us with some training could perform as well as an NBA player?
If you think anyone with "some training" could perform like a pro SC2 player, I don't think you're playing the same game the rest of us are.
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On January 07 2011 14:49 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 14:45 DongWang wrote:
The game has only been out a few months.. It took broodwar a few years to get to where it is now. Give it some time. The pros are still learning the game.. the units, the strategies, the builds etc. For an essentially brand new game, starcraft 2 is doing well. Comparing it to broodwar in terms of popularity at this point in time is just unfair and a tad ridiculous. god in hell. broodwar had no god damn background. SCII has background of 10+ years of esports and not only SC:BW so how on earth can u compare them? u see what i did there?! and for that fact SCII is doing terrible right now.
Why does having a predecessor run for 10+ years help create an essentially new game? Yes this would be very helpful if... you know... they wanted to clone BW. They are trying to steer away from some of the BW stuff. I hope you know that with RTS (such as SC), even a small change can have drastic differences. So for all intensive, it is not comparable.
Really, think about this from a developer point of view. Blizzard never made maps for pro play. Why? Because KESPA had the monopoly over the scene and they had that point covered. So this is new for them. Also, the only similarity between the races are the ideology (gas, minerals, command centre, food). A lot of units changed/removed/added. A lot of mechanics changed/removed/added. Its ludicrous to think that because they had game A do well, then their experience should automatically allow them to make a masterpiece right after release.
If you don't remember, BW was terrible and unplayable until they decided to add 50 mineral cost to a certain building. 50 minerals. Nevermind totally overhalling everything about the game...
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gotta love how many foriegners are all of a sudden experts in korean culture. lets see how this plays out. if this is like anything else, sc2 will pick up soon.
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To me personally it just seems there are far too many games, people have commitments and such and can't go there 5 days a week just to watch Starcraft all the time
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If this is a serious concern, Blizzard can fix it with a few steps:
1) Let OSL/MSL into SC2. Take a cut in the cost of royalties/licenses, but compensate by inviting new partners.
2) Get a way around the requiring a Korean ID number to play bit. Start giving the game out for free over there. Hell, let foreigners onto the Korean server if they need some n00bs to be cannon fodder.
3) Maps, maps, maps. Bigger macro-oriented maps. The problem is Protoss armies are relatively slow moving balls of death. Zerg can expand like a mother@#$%er and Terran forces can be quite mobile.
Whatever stands in the way of BW-like maps, fix that in patches or Heart of the Swarm, which they should push out earlier than intended. It was meant for late 2011 or early 2012. Well, add some kickass new units and mechanics for Protoss and Zerg (and a few trinkets for Terran whose mechanics are mostly balanced between flexibility and fun) and get that damn expansion out early.
Advertise the new HotS expansion as like the next chapter of a saga (not the single player, but the multiplayer). Advertise the winners from WoL and be like 'how will they fare against the new Zerg?' or kind of like a 'Zerg Strikes Back' thing. Play up drama. Advertise (on TV) the shit out of Boxer, Nada, July, and others.
Give OSL/MSL incentives to start shifting towards SC2.
4) Get SC2 onto TV. Expand international coverage. Focus on making profits from the international streams from advertising (it has to be done). Have staggered delayed streams for each region.
Blizzard needs to get into other countries and promote SC2, try to duplicate what happened with Brood War in SK. One example? India. Another? China. With regards to India, the country is wired out the wazoo but their internet sucks. But guess what? SC2 is playable even with bad latency. I ping like 400ms to North America but it's still playable and still fun. Giving the Indian subcontinent (or China and India together) their own regional servers (while allowing India to get a free pass to EU because I think India has a better connection to Europe than to the East).
RTS is the only type of multiplayer game that can catch on in India right now. It's the most latency-friendly game genre. People there are struggling with WoW or setting up their own Quake servers and the like.
As computers that can run SC2 get cheap and the popularity of cybercafes explode, money of the sort they offer in Korea would be insane in India. Have the international leagues be feeder leagues for Korea.
Ditch the Russian server or start giving out EU licenses to people in Russia.
Blizzard needs to start testing the waters around the world to find "the next South Korea". Koreans are likely tired of RTS and going for MMOs now. In some regions though, MMOs suffer because of latency. RTS won't.
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Okay, so while there are some interesting points about why the game itself and GOM are flawed, I don't really feel like jumping into that fray is useful given the volume of conversation already happening. However, I think there may also me some external factors at work here not being discussed.
1. The location of the tournament. Is it possible that the Incheon location is just too far out of the way for this to be something a regular fan could go to easily? I recall hearing that the train ride is quite epic and that could be enough to keep away casual fans. Other factors like weather could figure in, as it is wintertime. Location really does matter, it cannot be said enough. I know the diehard fans will always go where the games are...but that is only what fills out the first few rows. Casual fans will consider travel time and external factors before making the trip.
2. E-sports underdog status was undermined by piles of cash. Perhaps people are less likely to fall in love with the SC II scene as it was given everything to succeed. I have to admit that part of me loves e-sports in the way that O love a band before 'the mainstream' knows about it. SC II is not an underdog, players did not have to fight and scratch and claw the way they did in BW days -- and there is a very respectable quality to that history. Perhaps though their own effort to boost the community and esports in general, Blizzards involvement has accidentally killed off the loveable 'little engine that could vibe that BW has.
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People also need to factor in that the economy sucks post-2008 all over the world. Koreans probably have better things to do than watch StarCraft. A better gauge of interest would be viewership of Code S finals.
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The lack of audience in the early stages of the Code S GSL says nothing, it was the same during the round of 64 in the previous GSLs. The round of 8 will be where audience numbers should be taken into account.
But yes, SC2 will have to fight it's struggles in order to survive. These struggles are different struggles from BW so comparing the nature of both games is unreasonable.
To put it simple, SC2's biggest struggle and biggest mountain to overcome is BW. Nobody had expectations for BW, but it established itself as an esport in Korea and through Korea the world. Now SC2's challenge is to do a similar thing and expectations were to do it bigger and better.
I read nearly every post on this thread, skimmed through some and came to the conclusion that every single disappointment in SC2 stems out of the legacy BW has created. The Macro play, the skill level, the league system, the broadcasting, the entertainment charm etc ... SC2 has a lot to live up to as it's predecessor, BW, that has done something no other RTS game has done on the same level : it created a huge huge community.
We are in a bumpy transition from BW to SC2. In fact, there isn't a transition at all, it's more like a rivalry. SC2 was supposed to win over the pre-existing BW scene and grow even bigger .. but what actually happened was it took a portion of it and created this tension between the 2 games and it's community. Blizzard confronting the BW giants in the Starcraft Mecca Korea didn't help at all.
Even within the BW community I feel it is split, there are those who genuninely would transition to SC2 if it gave them a better or even equal feeling of entertainment. Then there are those who really don't care about SC2 and in fact expect and wish it to die.
Same within the SC2 community where there are exBW fans/players who have made the transition but are getting disappointed by the current state of the game in terms of entertainment value. Then there are those who are new and came from other gaming realms who actually love the game and can't really understand all these BW comparisons.
The GSL is currently in a country where BW dominates and given the politics behind, I have a feeling even if SC2 were genuinely a better game ( clearly not yet ) it would still have big big problems in winning the BW scene over and thus the whole emphasis now is not to win the exisiting BW scene but to create a new scene altogether. And this will take time obviously. There's a different struggle between creating a big scene where there was no scene at all versus creating one where there is a rival predominant one. A lot of tweaks, patches & expansions are needed to make the game better and better. The players need time to get better and better. In fact, these cheesy builds are the evolution of the game which will evolve further. I could give tons of examples about how fast SC2 is evolving. The game will be geared towards economy based play with more bases as 1 base aggression becomes less and less viable with the help of maps, patches and creative ideas from the players themselves. And greater games than what we have seen will emerge.
People jump to conclusions so easily, but the fact that there is a community that actually discusses these things and worries about the game itself just proves that there's so much room for optimism rather than this pessimism just because Big Dong studios didn't have a big audience even on a SlayerS_BoxR game.
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5003 Posts
funny how you both show GOMTV league games to try and prove your point when GomTV leagues always sucked LOL
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EPT
