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On January 07 2011 11:09 DrBoo wrote:
As it has been brought up a couple times in the thread already IF Blizzard were to increase the size of the maps then would protoss be WAY too strong due to warp in mechanics allowing them to simply warp units in all the way across the map completely dismissing the entire idea of expanding the maps to prevent quick games.
I need someone to explain the thinking behind why larger maps result in Protoss imbalance due to warp in mechanic because stuff like 4 gate timings are going to be slower on larger maps.
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On January 07 2011 11:09 DrBoo wrote:
As it has been brought up a couple times in the thread already IF Blizzard were to increase the size of the maps then would protoss be WAY too strong due to warp in mechanics allowing them to simply warp units in all the way across the map completely dismissing the entire idea of expanding the maps to prevent quick games.
This doesnt really make sense, the only situation where the size of the map does not matter (much) to toss is when they are 4 gateing, so yes, 4gate would still be quite strong, but at any point in the game after that, the size of the map still hurts toss aggression quite a bit (though not as much as the other races).
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This tells how many people showed up at the venue but that doesn't indicate popularity that much. How many watched the stream or paid for the VODs?
It's not surprising that people aren't going to drive/walk all the way in the freezing cold to watch Ro32 games live.
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On January 07 2011 08:26 [wh]_ForAlways wrote:
I really don't want to derail this thread, but I feel like a lot of this is because the vast majority of the GSL games have been awful. Players either make huge blunders or incredibly low econ play. The few games where both players do secure a third base tend to be pretty awesome. GOMTV really needs to hire their own mapmaker now that Code S and Code A have been established; blizzard maps are horrendous for promoting macro games.
I agree, there have really not been that many great games so far this January and these guys are all supposed to be the elite. Most of them look like ass. Rainbow's overextending himself versus Genius is a great example of poor game sense.
The Boxer game versus dub, on the other hand, was really great to watch. MVP's games were also very impressive as a spectator.
All in all I think the problem lies in the maps and the players, most of the players simply aren't that impressive to watch and the maps are growing stale after three seasons and encourage too little macro oriented play. Shakuras Plateau and Metalopolis without close spawns are the exceptions to this, but I've seen so many games on Metalopolis it's starting to grow old.
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Sc2 is fine and will be around for a long time. We're only the first 6 months into sc2 We have too many amazing people promoting it not to be awesome. Even if gom fails. MLG is getting riots about more seating for SC2. This game is going to be amazing.
Idk why so many people are obsessed with wanting kespa to get into sc2. I'm not a fan boy of gom, but I don't like how kespa treats people. As for blizzard. Blizzard doesn't need to care about E-sports The balance team has many E-sport fans which will help the game stay well balanced. They just need to keep up the good work with making the games/expansions I have faith that sc2 is a good enough game to grow for years.
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SC2 just needs some really really good players and players that dominate. So far, we haven't really seen that. Also,there are 2 more expansions. Hopefully Blizzard adds some units that people will get anxious about when they enter battle (reavers, zealot drops, mines). I'm pretty sure blizzard can make the game more interesting yet keep it balanced. I would love to see a bunch of stalkers turn to blueberry pie after stepping on mines with sc2 graphics.
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i think a number of things need to happen before we can clarify if SC2 is a failure as an Esport. there way too much crap being flung around to really see whats the problem, and i think thats the problem within itself, there is so many people going off about balance, comparing it to brood war, poor maps, gom\blizz - kespa grudges, uninteresting players, crappy short games. there is alot of stuff to take in. i mean we can't depend on Heart of the swarm to "save" Sc2 from failing, if it even is either. the game obviously isnt as mechanically taxing as SC1 because blizzard didn't want the same archaic game form for a new generation game. people would just call it Sc1 with pretty colors.
I really think esports is present right now, it just has to grow now, and we as a community have to help its growth through and through. if we start blaming something then that just gives us a simple reason to walk away. yeah it sucks, but it is was it is. blizzard is trying, you can say its not, but it is a small team of developers and i think they should be cut some slack, Starcraft 2 is a HUGE thing. we can't judge it over this small amount of time, its going to take time, and we really need to have faith in it. but people are impatient, and they want things now. and thats how life works i guess.
I'm never going to count out Starcraft 2, this is always going to be a thing of enjoyment for me. if the GSL fails then that sucks, thats not the end of starcraft 2 as an E-sport though.
Brood War is going to be that thing that people look back on and go "yeah that shit was awesome, i don't think ill ever have that much fun again" and that happens all the time with anything that has a life-span. We really have to stop comparing the two. Yes starcraft 2 is riding on the wings of Brood War, but they are different games and they need to be looked at with different perspectives.
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Day9 said in a recent daily that "great games" are born from players' mistakes. Foreigner games are more interesting because frankly, on average they make more of them.
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On January 07 2011 11:06 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 10:41 Thetan wrote:
It all really comes down to the fact that the matches aren't interesting in the GSL. Foreigner games, on the other hand, are much more enjoyable - so you can't completely blame the shitty maps or balance.
I think a big issue is that Koreans are playing SC2 like it's SC1. You could become a decent SC1 pro just by having good mechanics and memorizing some strict build orders - even if you don't know why the build orders you do are good. In SC1, where certain people really understood the game, you didn't need to understand the game to be good, you just had to copy the ppl who do.
In SC2, the koreans all do the same cheesy flavor of the month build. They don't try to learn the game, they just try to learn builds. Which is why we see little innovation out of most of the Korean players, which makes watching Korean games boring.
What I noticed in a few games during the GSL is that strategically sound players (fruitdealer, Ret) got beat because their opponents responded the *wrong* way to what they saw while fruitdeal/Ret planned ahead to counter the *right* response.
I remember a story about how Roger Clemens hated rehabbing in the minor leagues, because the small mind games with pitch selection and location that gave Clemens an advantage over experienced major league players didn't work on minor leaguers who just swung at everything.
I feel the same thing is happening in SC2 right now. Truly strong, awe-inspiring play and strategy cannot emerge until all the players have an advanced understanding of the game. And right now, we are nowhere close to that. Youe cannot play a strategy game if even one of the sides doesn't understand the strategy of the game. I personally think you are completely off on this one, considering a lot of the trends on the foreign ladder emerge from strategies everyone saw on the GSL IE foxer marines. A build is strategy fine tuned towards doing it the very best way possible, it just so happens that the stronger builds are based off 1 or 2 basing then going all in or a big death push. To say some of thes players don't understand the game is ridiculous , they made these really punishing builds and they did it by understanding the match ups.
I would call the current, universal build orders being used low level strategy at best. There's no baiting, no switching, no forcing, no reacting, no nothing - completely unreactionary builds. I hate calling a linear build order a "strategy". A strategy is "an elaborate and systematic plan of action" - which is most definitely not a four gate rush, roach all-ins, scv all-ins, or just making marines all game long. You get an "oh, he executed that well" feeling, but true strategy should give a "wow, that was really smart" feeling. There's a huge difference in strategical brillance between "i'm gonna use this push to kill him" and "if he opens with that, i'm going to use this to force him to do this, so I can do this which will put me slightly ahead and in a better position to take the game 5 minutes afterward".
I dunno, but I don't see much true strategy right now - mostly just people trying to force linear, pre-determined builds.
On January 07 2011 11:07 shadesofkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 10:41 Thetan wrote:
I think a big issue is that Koreans are playing SC2 like it's SC1. You could become a decent SC1 pro just by having good mechanics and memorizing some strict build orders - even if you don't know why the build orders you do are good. In SC1, where certain people really understood the game, you didn't need to understand the game to be good, you just had to copy the ppl who do. Please please please tell me you are trolling.
I'm not saying that people like Flash or Jaedong don't understand the game, I'm saying that you can be an average low level A-teamer or B-teamer if you have good mechanics and your coach told you to memorize this flowchart of scouting timings and how you should react to what you see.
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My opinion is that SC2 will become firmly rooted in Western community while Korean scene might revert to SC1 (or fail, I guess). And I have no problem with that, looking at the current situation and players honestly. Games stabilizing in to such niches would actually be perfectly satisfying to both side of the fans.
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Simple question.
Does Liquid have a BW team? What new BW teams have been announced? I LOVE BW but it just feels old and cheesy compared to SC2. I read a poster above comment about his experience at a BW tournament. He commented on one match where the "cheese" was electrifying the audience. Funny how every other BW diehard complains about the modern cheese.
I still say six months is not enough to define a "scene". SC2 is already catching on everywhere else around the world. In the US they have a College level SC2 competition which is going nuts. Korea may have helped bring about E-sports and been the Meca, but Sweden's DreamHack was fucking awesome, with great games and lots of friendly people. MLG was a BLAST! Can't wait for bigger and better tournaments!
I also just paid for GOMTv membership. Like I said in my earlier post. Can't measure an "E" sport by judging physical attendance, reallly. The Sky is not falling. I played Warcraft I, Starcraft I, BW and every other RTS and FPS under the sun. Starcraft 2 is the real deal and is only going to get better.
And yes, I think bigger maps which encourage more strategy should be produced. I also think they should raise the supply count to 300 to encourage bigger and better engagements. But at the end of the day if I can win 60,000 US for a cheese play, i'm doing it. You can be mad at me while I go to a steak house. 
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I'm not saying that people like Flash or Jaedong don't understand the game, I'm saying that you can be an average low level A-teamer or B-teamer if you have good mechanics and your coach told you to memorize this flowchart of scouting timings and how you should react to what you see.
Uh, no, you DEFINATELY cannot skate through purely on mechanics; mechanics alone will take you to, ehh, about C- iccup? Definately not to the level where you're considered "good" by any means.
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BW's hold on the Korean scene will loosen with time as SC2 is out for longer and longer. It would be foolish to assume that a new game could unseat the biggest esport in the world on its home turf overnight. I think that once GSL/Blizzard starts incorporating new maps, and truly star players emerge, SC2 will really begin to take off. This game definitely has the potential to be as big as BW, but it's still going to take time. The GSL organizers seemed to think that they could just start off as big as BW on opening night, which was definitely not the case.
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On January 07 2011 11:38 KeepYaCoolBro wrote:Simple question. Does Liquid have a BW team? What new BW teams have been announced? I LOVE BW but it just feels old and cheesy compared to SC2. I read a poster above comment about his experience at a BW tournament. He commented on one match where the "cheese" was electrifying the audience. Funny how every other BW diehard complains about the modern cheese. I still say six months is not enough to define a "scene". SC2 is already catching on everywhere else around the world. In the US they have a College level SC2 competition which is going nuts. Korea may have helped bring about E-sports and been the Meca, but Sweden's DreamHack was fucking awesome, with great games and lots of friendly people. MLG was a BLAST! Can't wait for bigger and better tournaments! I also just paid for GOMTv membership. Like I said in my earlier post. Can't measure an "E" sport by judging physical attendance, reallly. The Sky is not falling. I played Warcraft I, Starcraft I, BW and every other RTS and FPS under the sun. Starcraft 2 is the real deal and is only going to get better. And yes, I think bigger maps which encourage more strategy should be produced. I also think they should raise the supply count to 300 to encourage bigger and better engagements. But at the end of the day if I can win 60,000 US for a cheese play, i'm doing it. You can be mad at me while I go to a steak house.
Cheesy? But... cheese very rarely happens in BW as compared to SC2.
Old? I don't consider it to be old; BW has aged incredibly well, the graphics are still crisp, and you can see exactly what's going on, as opposed to the billions of particle effects going on.
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Shouldn't online viewership be the determinant of popularity?..
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On January 07 2011 09:37 d_so wrote:
i dont want to hate on sc2 too much because I've made it clear in previous posts I'm not a fan of the game (right now) and I don't want to make this thread into a BW vs SC2 thread. But I will say one thing: I finally tuned into the GSL to watch Jinro vs whoever in the GSL Season 3 Ro4. And yeah I guess it's unfair of me to judge a game based on one viewing experience... but that one viewing experience was fucking HORRIBLE. I felt I was watching a BW terran die to 1.) a zealot poke , 2.) a reaver drop, 3.) 2 gate dragoon range. And then there's other things, aesthetic things... like the lighting. So dark and blue. And the announcers: they look/sound like chumps, especially the woman!!!!
Contrast that with the viewing experience I recently had with BW. I finally convinced my gf to come watch a game with me at Yongsan. We go on christmas, thinking we'll watch KT vs SK but it was STX vs ACE. No biggie. We arrived 2 hours early (cuz of a HORRIBLE viewing experience from the christmas a year prior, where literally 600 people were forced to wait outside in the cold yelling at each other to watch Flash vs Jaedong) and write our names on the list. THen we go shopping.
We come back an hour later, they read off our names and we get in line. We sit in the stands in pretty good seats. Because it's christmas, we got free pizza hut pizza. We also got Proleague day planners which were pretty cool. Announcers are great per usual. ACE is just an awesome team to root for and its existence shouldn't be discounted as a huge selling point for BW. When Xellos hides his 2 fac from Shuttle the audience goes woooo. Game 2, Ruby beats Turn? with a clever clever cheese. You can feel the excitement coursing through the stands when he built his barracks in Turn's base. Game 4 is a macro beatdown by FBH. FBH finishes the game with this cocky ass look on his face, and the crowd anticipates some sort of subtle-yet-awesome ceremony. THis is cuz the longevity of the system and the players has created a personal attachment for the player; contrast that with a GSL, where a player's longevity is relatively short lived, making it that much more difficult to create compelling storylines.
My gf left the game saying "let's watch ACE again someday". How does Kespa do it? I don't know. But they create a viewing experience that's fun for the hardcore and softcore fans alike. There's some subtle marketing genius in play here, not just through blatant advertising but in creating a movie-like experience, a compelling hybrid of theater and sports, coupled with good looking/accessible stars, great aesthetics/ambiance and great announcers. I'm not saying it's impossible for GOM to replicate this. But I don't think the problem is simply that the game is less interesting to watch right now, and the presentation of the show needs to more highly regarded as a competitive feature.
PS: Please stop with the metal suits for the male announcers! Dress them up in something classy plzzzz
You are so lucky! Free pizza on a live Proleague viewing... I wish I were living in South Korea right now. =) Either way, you said it perfectly; I am quoting to bump up your post for all to see! Not hating on SC2 either, but I agree too that it is not a pleasant spectacle to watch at times. ^^
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On January 07 2011 11:40 AJMcSpiffy wrote:
BW's hold on the Korean scene will loosen with time as SC2 is out for longer and longer. It would be foolish to assume that a new game could unseat the biggest esport in the world on its home turf overnight. I think that once GSL/Blizzard starts incorporating new maps, and truly star players emerge, SC2 will really begin to take off. This game definitely has the potential to be as big as BW, but it's still going to take time. The GSL organizers seemed to think that they could just start off as big as BW on opening night, which was definitely not the case.
Nope, on the contrary: SC2's hold on the Korean scene will likely loosen, as BW is considered by most Koreans to be the better spectator sport.
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I think its the league format, the last 3 touranments I cared so much, suddenly I dont, its like FootBall world cup finals, nobody really cares for the country games until the round of 32..
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While I agree that maps aren't great, there is still plenty of cheesing and silliness going on in a good map like Xel'Naga Caverns. It's not so obvious that maps are the clear problem.
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On January 07 2011 11:24 Greentellon wrote:
Football, skating, baseball and others are not "spectator sports" either, they are incredibly boring especially when compared to things like GSL.
ehhh...wait what? football is boring to watch? football to me and many millions of americans is one of the greatest sports to watch. I dont like watching baseball, but i do know a lot of people who do like it.
I think this kinda emphasizes a key point. if you dont like something, you aren't going to find watching it interesting. yea, seems pretty hurr durr obvious, but a lot of people seem to ignore that when they post. I see countless posts like "I dont play SC2, but I found its so boring to watch compared to BW." Well no shit youre gonna find it boring to watch because you dont even play the game and thus dont relate to it whatsoever. I find halo boring to watch, I find curling boring to watch, I find the winter olympics in general boring to watch. And yet all of those have healthy sized audiences.
Who cares what you think? Just because you think that SC2 is "boring to watch" doesnt make it actually boring to watch in general. Im willing to bet that the audience of those people who find BW boring to watch compared to football is several thousand times larger than the opposite crowd, and yet if they say "I dont play BW, but I find it boring compared to football", I can bet that most of TL.net would argue differently.
Until someone gets some kinda poll data showing a large majority of e-sports followers saying SC2 is boring to watch compared to BW, its stupid to claim that SC2 is more boring to watch than BW.
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EPT
