|
On January 07 2011 10:26 sqrt wrote:
Guys, guys, guys, guys...
The real test for SC2 will come somewhere around the middle of this year. The game is too young for it to lose it's audience. If it can retain the same crowd, or almost the same, 'till the middle of next year - great. If we lose 50% viewrship - than the ship has sunken and no amount of expansions will help it. This will be the real test, was the game good or was the scene artificially inflated?
Of course I am talking about the West, I have too little information to talk about Korea...
the game will be fine in the west since there is just no alternative. Like 90% of the viewers come from either bw or wc3 and both games are practically dead outside korea(bw)/china(wc3).
|
i stopped watching GSL after they went to this bad style of code s code a crap
|
On January 07 2011 10:31 HeaveNTiMe wrote:
i stopped watching GSL after they went to this bad style of code s code a crap
Yeah pretty much, though I rarely watched the GSL at all.
The foreign tournaments are just more fun to watch in all honesty.
|
On January 07 2011 10:23 floor exercise wrote:
One day the rest of you will realize Promod is our only salvation, but by then I fear it will be too late
no i think promod for sc2 would fail just as bad as promod did for cs:source
|
wasnt there a thread that boxer first game in sc2 had 0.5kk viewers online /
|
It all really comes down to the fact that the matches aren't interesting in the GSL. Foreigner games, on the other hand, are much more enjoyable - so you can't completely blame the shitty maps or balance.
I think a big issue is that Koreans are playing SC2 like it's SC1. You could become a decent SC1 pro just by having good mechanics and memorizing some strict build orders - even if you don't know why the build orders you do are good. In SC1, where certain people really understood the game, you didn't need to understand the game to be good, you just had to copy the ppl who do.
In SC2, the koreans all do the same cheesy flavor of the month build. They don't try to learn the game, they just try to learn builds. Which is why we see little innovation out of most of the Korean players, which makes watching Korean games boring.
What I noticed in a few games during the GSL is that strategically sound players (fruitdealer, Ret) got beat because their opponents responded the *wrong* way to what they saw while fruitdeal/Ret planned ahead to counter the *right* response.
I remember a story about how Roger Clemens hated rehabbing in the minor leagues, because the small mind games with pitch selection and location that gave Clemens an advantage over experienced major league players didn't work on minor leaguers who just swung at everything.
I feel the same thing is happening in SC2 right now. Truly strong, awe-inspiring play and strategy cannot emerge until all the players have an advanced understanding of the game. And right now, we are nowhere close to that. You cannot play a strategy game if even one of the sides doesn't understand the strategy of the game.
|
now we see the real reason for blizzard going after OGN/MBC
taking out the competition, smart move. I'm not trying to create debate or anything, if I was blizzard I'd do the same thing if my new baby wasn't growing at the pace I thought it should.. but IMO they should really team up with kespa, MBC, and OGN for great success
but besides all that, I'm there are several reasons that sc2 hasn't gained popularity as much. I can't claim to know what they are since I haven't touched the game, but Blizzard sure as fuck should have some idea..
|
what will happen after GSL go bust? I mean IF..
|
I think the real stress-test of the SC2 scene in Korea will be the upcoming Blizzard Cup.
And if GOM would actually make an effort to delay their streams until reasonable hours for Westerners, they'd probably have an exponentially larger consistent online audience.
|
On January 07 2011 10:46 namedplayer wrote:
what will happen after GSL go bust? I mean IF..
seriously speaking i would love to see this and give blizzard a lesson if they are trying to suck money out of esports outrageiously. its no loss to us. who fucking cares about the cheesy scv all-ins?
|
As the GSL seasons have gone on, i have become less motivated to purchase the ticket for VODs. GSL 2 i was watching everyday when i got home, but GSL 3 left a bad taste in my mouth with how many all in games we saw including the finals.
I understand that one base play is part of the game and was part of BW, but their is seemingly less and less play on the opposite end. When macro games do happen they sometimes aren't all that great either, A moving into each other with only two or three types of units, and absolutely melting each others death ball in a few seconds.
I will probably buy the team league ticket because thats has been something i have wanted to watch for awhile now, its always great to be able to root for your favorite team and all, but unless that is amazing or this current season turns around i just cant see myself buying justifying another ticket.
|
i think its not simply a map issue. the game decides too fast. once a player has a slight army advantage, he can win from it much quicker than in BW, because:
* mobility is too high (small maps, warp in, nydus, cheap drop tec, cliff hopping units [blink, reapers, ..])
* fights are too fast (harder to delay a winning push)
* less defender advantage (high ground mechanics changed, cliffs can be overcome easier)
* micro is not that important compared to BW, you hardly can turn around a game by perfect micro.
I think blizzard would have been better off with just polishing SC1 graphics and UI. Maybe add one or 2 units to each race ..
Anyway i like viewing SC2. Macro games can be boring at times, when 2 player keep pumping drones for 5+ minutes .. a well executed cheese can be entertaining :-). Dunno why everybody is so all-in about macro games. It's not that a challenge to sim city perfectly, its always the same .. where is the point.
|
Only reason I watch gsl is because of tastosis lol
and sc2 just isnt as exciting as broodwar because broodwar has a long history and a lot of drama
|
I may be rewording lots of things said previously by others, but since I'm too lazy to read them all, I might as well restate them if it has alrdy been restated.
Most koreans feel that GSL is weakening because:
1.) shitload of cheese. If all games are going to end in 5 mins, why watch it? it isn't fun, it only just kinda seems pointless. It doesnt have the intensity and it's nt as entertaining as macro games. Yes it's fine to have cheese games but only ONCE IN A WHILE. If you see a terran cheesing almost every game against a fast expanding zerg... well... you know what I mean. And some people say that after the cheese fest was when GSL started to decline fast.
2.) Maps. Having same map pool every single time. Of course, pros can see the slight difference in a strategy and be curious and intrigued by it. But amateur viewers like us? Seeing same exact unit composition with similar building placements with similar timing pushes because of the rush dist and spawning positions. The strategies, whatever those may be, are bound to get repetitive that evantually bores the audience.
3.) No TV channel+not enough advertisement. Of course, this goes to KeSPA and all the OGN and Blizzard court cases stuff. I will be honest and say that I do not know much about it. But GomTV cannot air their games on TV because of the conflict with Blizzard and KeSPA. Because of this, it is really hard to get the GSL out to the public. Yes they have internet stream, but it is not enough. Not many people would be that dedicated to spend an hr or two to just specifically watch the games on the livestream. Only game manias would be willing and those numbers are few. Look at BW, one of the reasons that it attracted so many audiences is because of the cable channel that it had casting matches. Even the people who are not really up to date with the esports news can easily have access to the games because of the TV. They wouldn't have to look for games specifically, but may just stumble upon that channel and thus become an audience.
Also, with the opening ceremony for Code S, one of the reason it attracted so few people was because of the lack of the advertisement. The TV and advertisement ties close to each other in that they both are the way of reaching to the public about GSL. It was so bad of an advetising on GomTV's side that many that didn't show up later said that they couldn't show up because they didn't know where it was held.
For now, this is all I can think of. Of course there is the whole BW scene still existing and the famous BW players like Flash overshadowing the whole SC2 scene. Being one of the GSL fans, I really don't want it to go down like this. I even wake up 5am every morning to watch every single matches. If I'm missing any points, please expand on it. I might've been missing few crucial parts, but I hope I covered some basic points about the current problems in GSL. I'm a bad writer, but I hope I got my point across. :D
|
Im not so much onto korean culture
if blizz kill bw and then sc2 dies what will be the hype ?
cs? dota? wc3 ? tekken 6? none of the above ?
|
On January 07 2011 10:41 Thetan wrote:
It all really comes down to the fact that the matches aren't interesting in the GSL. Foreigner games, on the other hand, are much more enjoyable - so you can't completely blame the shitty maps or balance.
I think a big issue is that Koreans are playing SC2 like it's SC1. You could become a decent SC1 pro just by having good mechanics and memorizing some strict build orders - even if you don't know why the build orders you do are good. In SC1, where certain people really understood the game, you didn't need to understand the game to be good, you just had to copy the ppl who do.
In SC2, the koreans all do the same cheesy flavor of the month build. They don't try to learn the game, they just try to learn builds. Which is why we see little innovation out of most of the Korean players, which makes watching Korean games boring.
What I noticed in a few games during the GSL is that strategically sound players (fruitdealer, Ret) got beat because their opponents responded the *wrong* way to what they saw while fruitdeal/Ret planned ahead to counter the *right* response.
I remember a story about how Roger Clemens hated rehabbing in the minor leagues, because the small mind games with pitch selection and location that gave Clemens an advantage over experienced major league players didn't work on minor leaguers who just swung at everything.
I feel the same thing is happening in SC2 right now. Truly strong, awe-inspiring play and strategy cannot emerge until all the players have an advanced understanding of the game. And right now, we are nowhere close to that. You cannot play a strategy game if even one of the sides doesn't understand the strategy of the game.
GSL needs more foreigners.
|
Yeah for me GSL has gotten a lot more dry recently. It was cool in GSL1, I was hooked and watched every game, but that was only because everything was new. Now in s4 the games are so dull and I can't even be bothered to watch half of them, the only ones I do watch are ones with people I like (FD, IdrA, Jinro etc). Something needs to happen to fix this shit.
|
On January 07 2011 10:55 hjkim1304 wrote:
3.) No TV channel+not enough advertisement. Of course, this goes to KeSPA and all the OGN and Blizzard court cases stuff. I will be honest and say that I do not know much about it. But GomTV cannot air their games on TV because of the conflict with Blizzard and KeSPA. Because of this, it is really hard to get the GSL out to the public. Yes they have internet stream, but it is not enough. Not many people would be that dedicated to spend an hr or two to just specifically watch the games on the livestream. Only game manias would be willing and those numbers are few. Look at BW, one of the reasons that it attracted so many audiences is because of the cable channel that it had casting matches. Even the people who are not really up to date with the esports news can easily have access to the games because of the TV. They wouldn't have to look for games specifically, but may just stumble upon that channel and thus become an audience.
I'm surprised at this, especially given the demographic of the audience for esports. Given the awesomeness that is the SK internet, I'm surprised their younger people still channel-surf.
|
This game will die when the money drys up just like every game except broodwar. Thats my feeling. Theres obviously a lot of reasons and discussion around that statement. I just would rather leave the statement
|
On January 07 2011 10:41 Thetan wrote:
It all really comes down to the fact that the matches aren't interesting in the GSL. Foreigner games, on the other hand, are much more enjoyable - so you can't completely blame the shitty maps or balance.
I think a big issue is that Koreans are playing SC2 like it's SC1. You could become a decent SC1 pro just by having good mechanics and memorizing some strict build orders - even if you don't know why the build orders you do are good. In SC1, where certain people really understood the game, you didn't need to understand the game to be good, you just had to copy the ppl who do.
In SC2, the koreans all do the same cheesy flavor of the month build. They don't try to learn the game, they just try to learn builds. Which is why we see little innovation out of most of the Korean players, which makes watching Korean games boring.
What I noticed in a few games during the GSL is that strategically sound players (fruitdealer, Ret) got beat because their opponents responded the *wrong* way to what they saw while fruitdeal/Ret planned ahead to counter the *right* response.
I remember a story about how Roger Clemens hated rehabbing in the minor leagues, because the small mind games with pitch selection and location that gave Clemens an advantage over experienced major league players didn't work on minor leaguers who just swung at everything.
I feel the same thing is happening in SC2 right now. Truly strong, awe-inspiring play and strategy cannot emerge until all the players have an advanced understanding of the game. And right now, we are nowhere close to that. You cannot play a strategy game if even one of the sides doesn't understand the strategy of the game. I personally think you are completely off on this one, considering a lot of the trends on the foreign ladder emerge from strategies everyone saw on the GSL IE foxer marines. A build is strategy fine tuned towards doing it the very best way possible, it just so happens that the stronger builds are based off 1 or 2 basing then going all in or a big death push. To say some of these players don't understand the game is ridiculous , they made these really punishing builds and they did it by understanding the match ups.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
