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On January 07 2011 09:55 mcleod wrote:
honestly, i think most foreigner tournaments have been way more exciting so far than GSL
Dreamhack finals were pretty good and MLG has overall been pretty good. I don't think we need to depend on Korea for SC2 and if it fails in korea, theres no reason it still cant flourish elsewhere.
as a gamer i would get very depressed to think the top gamers in the world are playing 1-4 hours a day while studying. it doesnt even need to be called sport if there is so little competition or interest. foreigner starcraft scene itself will not do well without korea and their actual progamers and dedication, televised games and big crowds who understand the game
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On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
It's like you guys are trying to deny the rise of Rock n' Roll. Yes, there are flaws in GOM's approach and in Blizz's approach, but the slow, laborious nature of Blizzard's implementation just means that everyone needs to be patient. I could really care less about the Korean scene and if Broodwar becomes the standard there, because the Western world absolutely has no signs of turning back to BW. Broodwar has lost the potential for new fans, it just simply looks and acts too archaic. Starcraft II is the future... so for all of you singing doomsday a) Don't be negative and stereotypical pompous nerds..no one enjoys that and b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls. So instead of whining about bad maps, support map makers. Instead of screaming about all-ins, learn to combat them so effectively that they die out in popularity. Purist, fundamentalists resistent to change have never thrived in any time during history, I doubt they will now.
Blizzards slow, laborious implementation? What exactly is this approach?
Blizzard have done mostly jack shit to support foreign tournaments outside of the couple invitationals they have hosted, and its unclear to just what degree they're involved in the GSL. Not having LAN means every major SC2 live event is a gamble for tournament organisers, the quality of matches lower than they would otherwise be.
SC2 is succeeding in the west on the back of the community who go out and seek sponsors and argue the case for the game. Blizzard don't deserve a single shred of credit.
And guess what, if SC2 fails esports don't fail. SC2 failing will just be SC2 failing. Its not even currently the biggest esport anywhere.
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Cheese on the ladder and cheese in tournaments. And someone will want to play and watch that?
I am glad I didn't pay anything for watching GSL until now (only maybe 1st season was really fun to watch when cheese matches were still a novelty in GSL).
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The sky is not falling. The game has been released less than 6 months. E-sports DOES NOT need Korea to succeed. DreamHack, MLG, and the many many smaller tournaments that are handing out $1k prizes show this growth. If SC2 matches were broadcast on regular TV as BW matches are I would venture to bet you would see increased interest in Korea. Also, do you measure the success of a game in how many people physically show up? In this age of technology I don't.
I love the GSL matches from Korea and agree with a previous poster that they should be time delayed or cast at a reasonable time. What would be better is if they were broadcast by a major station!
E-sports and the SC2 scene are growing by leaps and bounds all over the world, we're not waiting for Korea to tell us what to do with SC2. If they want to join the fun then that's fine, if not, then enjoy watching 40 year old banging it out in BW in 10 years? . The younger generation is playing SC2. Sorry to break it to you, Face it guys, BW will die.
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I wonder how SC2 would be doing in Korea if Blizzard actually gave a shit about what we wanted from the start, namely:
LAN
None of this trilogy cashcow bullshit
Decent maps
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Matches are getting boring. I was a huge bw fan, watching all the greats play. SC2 came and i switched over immediately. I love SC2 but there are so many things lost from bw. Like everyone always states, the removal of amazing units being replaced with boring ones was a horrible move. But the biggest problem right now, are the maps. The maps simply are not the right size. The game feels clumped up. Cheese and BO wins are also horribly disappointing to watch. Again with bigger ICCUP type maps, these things would be fixed. Another problem is that it simply isn't as spectator friendly as bw. Having a battle with marines so tightly packed, while a collosus stands on top of everything blocking view, while medivacs block the view, just clutter. On top of that, the health bars, while they can be informative, they BLOCK THE VIEW! Sure it can be useful to see, but seriously, thats like looking at stat numbers that update instead of watching the battle. BW did fine with out those annoying bars. And of course, ball armies that just A move, retreat, and repeat.
All that being said though, I think SC2 has HUGE potential. Patches will be coming, along with new units in expansions. Things are going to change, the game is no where near done. I believe in SC2 and problems wont be fixed at once, but I know what the first step is. Change the maps! With the incoming patch that will bring chat channels, that should bring people together to play ICCUP maps. When they then fix the way custom maps are played(allow us to make games and name them like in bw, have the match not just start automatically, remove the popularity system, ect.) That should help even more. And when big tournaments such as GSL incorporate ICCUP type maps, then we will be one huge step in the right direction. There is still more to do, but this will greatly enhance the game. At least, that is what I believe.
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None of those are in English, except maybe the WCG ones.
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On January 07 2011 09:52 YerknYass wrote:
The NBA, chess, the NFL etc. all have new generations of fans every year. They are pastimes that are not relient on any form of technology (say what you will about new fangled Nike shoes). Because of Broodwar's technological requirements, the lack of evolution in areas outside of the near perfect balance that makes the game amazing will never progress and help reach out to new fanbases. People are caddy, they are attracted to the newer, nicer looking things. In the West, at the very least, people need to learn to support SCII. Instead of declaring things as black and white, good and bad, sack up instead and work to shape this new, well funded, huge-american-conglomerate backed game into the sport that we all want it to be.
i'd actually say that the technological requirements for BW is so low that it's pretty much universal. This actually helps bring new generations of fans, simply because it's much more accessible.
I recently hosted a BW tournament at the middle school I teach at. Had an 8 team, single elimination tourney where each match consisted of 4 simultaneous games, 2 1v1's, 1 2v2 and 1 1v1 Ace worth 2 points. We played in the school computer lab which had absolutely shit computers. And for the week and a half we did this, we literally had 100 kids stuffed in a 36 capacity room climbing all over each other to watch this. And these kids were not dedicated professionals or even close. They were D- level players. And for the Championship game, the head of the English department ordered me to have it broadcast on school television and to announce it. Her idea, not mine. This was a logistical nightmare, but eventually me and two kids I recruited to be announcers broadcast these games (in English, the only saving educational value), and the whole school watched. For two hours. ANd it was shitty, shitty play... but the kids loved it. Not just those who played, but the 15 year old girls who don't give a shit about games still got behind their classmates and cheered for them.
This type of accessibility is not available for SC2 right now. IN fact, SC2 has gone out of its way to make it ridiculously difficult to have these kinds of events. So don't be surprised if professional BW continues to propagate new generations of fans every year: the excellence of the gameplay + its accessibility will outweigh, in the long run, any sort of shiny new graphics.
If SC2 wants what BW has, they need to make sure their game is up to the exacting standards of a competitive BW match... and they need to try to be more inclusive. Not everyone has top notch graphic cards and computers these days, especially outside the US
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Wow reading this made me sad, I thought Starcraft 2 was going well in Korea
This really motivated me to support GomTV.
Even if Starcraft 2 does fine without the "support of Korea" in Europe and America it is just not the same. As mentioned before it is the mecca of e-sports and having that "highlight" and goal to aim for is so epic. No country will ever be like Korea when it comes to games, no other country will take it as seriously, yes there will be online tournaments and decent prize pools but if you are in it for the money then I feel so sorry for you. We need GSL, or anything similar to it.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but last i heard RTS in general in korea has been declining (yes, this includes BW) severely over the past 5 years or so.
It seems like most koreans these days are only interested in whatever free to play MMO the korean grind factory is coming out with.
Thats not to say these numbers arent dissappointing, But even watching random OSL/MSL games you can tell the stadiums are filled to just a fraction of their former capacity.
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This sort of thing is expected for GSL I think. Given the current situation with e-sports in korea, there's a lot of tension going on. If it wasn't for the conflict with gomTV/KeSPA, I believe Starcraft 2 would have been more successful. I don't think its because gomTV has bad advertising problems at all.
But I still think GSL will gain more popularity as more players get recognized. Once players are more established, more fans will come and support it of course.
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On January 07 2011 09:59 KeepYaCoolBro wrote:
The sky is not falling. The game has been released less than 6 months. E-sports DOES NOT need Korea to succeed. DreamHack, MLG, and the many many smaller tournaments that are handing out $1k prizes show this growth. If SC2 matches were broadcast on regular TV as BW matches are I would venture to bet you would see increased interest in Korea. Also, do you measure the success of a game in how many people physically show up? In this age of technology I don't.
I love the GSL matches from Korea and agree with a previous poster that they should be time delayed or cast at a reasonable time. What would be better is if they were broadcast by a major station!
E-sports and the SC2 scene are growing by leaps and bounds all over the world, we're not waiting for Korea to tell us what to do with SC2. If they want to join the fun then that's fine, if not, then enjoy watching 40 year old banging it out in BW in 10 years? . The younger generation is playing SC2. Sorry to break it to you, Face it guys, BW will die.
Nope. I am 15. I am "the younger generation". I play bw. There are many like me as well.
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4 GSLs on Blistering Sands is enough. When I see that map come up I make a coffee. I'm starting to get the caffeine urge for Delta, Steppes, and more and more Xel' Naga, close positions Metal. I don't need to watch games to know what's going to happen anymore, it's pathetic. The other day we had two games on Shakuras in a row and I watched them with baited breath. Not because boxer unveiled an amazing macro strategy, but because I had no idea what would happen next.
A new set of macro maps, and a week between games and we might actually have a tournament that isn't dryer than sandpaper, that makes you go wow I wonder what will happen. After 6 months 4 gates shouldn't be the build to beat, but they are.
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I did not read through the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been mentioned.
I think one of the reasons it may be losing popularity is because of the system. When it's a single elimination tournament it adds much more excitement, people can fill out brackets or make bets on certain outcomes etc. The system now is very hard to understand and does not cater to the casual viewer, a single elimination tournament is very easy to understand.
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SC2 is still pretty young. I think more foreigners watched the gsl live then the gomtv classic. Even if it doesnt really catch on in korea it will still be pretty big, but it will catch on. I remember playing clan games in sc1 even before bw came out, and zerg would rush with zerglings and drones. SC2 needs better maps, and really should bring back older units from BW like the lurker or the firebat. I sucked pretty bad at using lurkers, but watching hero zerg use lurker effectively was pretty sick. Watching a firebat kill a shit load of zerglings was amazing. Muta micro in bw was alot more useful. I think allowing inf. group sizes really dumbed down the micro level of the game. Im a pretty bad BW terran player, but I felt like a badass having my marine medics on 1 2 3 and my tanks on 4. In BW you could tell a good player from a great one. Like there is a big huge fucking difference from a C level player, and a B level player. There is pretty much no difference from a gold league player and a platinum. In bw a good player could work with shitty unit pathing, and make it look smooth. A bad player you would see dragoons bumping into each other units, units getting stuck, and doing random shit. SC2 has like perfect pathing ai. you can just box like 100 zerglings and they work fine, and dont freak out. Imagine trying to move 100 zerglings with BW shitty path finding.
SC2 does more right then wrong, and just needs to mature. SC2 is the RTS of the next decade at least in the west.
holy fuck alot of words
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On January 07 2011 09:59 KeepYaCoolBro wrote:
E-sports and the SC2 scene are growing by leaps and bounds all over the world, we're not waiting for Korea to tell us what to do with SC2. If they want to join the fun then that's fine, if not, then enjoy watching 40 year old banging it out in BW in 10 years? . The younger generation is playing SC2. Sorry to break it to you, Face it guys, BW will die.
I for one would not enjoy the SC2 scene nearly as much without Korea. Knowing that I won't be seeing the best players in the world play would just be depressing and cheapen the other global tournament winners who were proclaimed to be top dog.
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On January 07 2011 10:04 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:52 YerknYass wrote:
The NBA, chess, the NFL etc. all have new generations of fans every year. They are pastimes that are not relient on any form of technology (say what you will about new fangled Nike shoes). Because of Broodwar's technological requirements, the lack of evolution in areas outside of the near perfect balance that makes the game amazing will never progress and help reach out to new fanbases. People are caddy, they are attracted to the newer, nicer looking things. In the West, at the very least, people need to learn to support SCII. Instead of declaring things as black and white, good and bad, sack up instead and work to shape this new, well funded, huge-american-conglomerate backed game into the sport that we all want it to be. i'd actually say that the technological requirements for BW is so low that it's pretty much universal. This actually helps bring new generations of fans, simply because it's much more accessible. I recently hosted a BW tournament at the middle school I teach at. Had an 8 team, single elimination tourney where each match consisted of 4 simultaneous games, 2 1v1's, 1 2v2 and 1 1v1 Ace worth 2 points. We played in the school computer lab which had absolutely shit computers. And for the week and a half we did this, we literally had 100 kids stuffed in a 36 capacity room climbing all over each other to watch this. And these kids were not dedicated professionals or even close. They were D- level players. And for the Championship game, the head of the English department ordered me to have it broadcast on school television and to announce it. Her idea, not mine. This was a logistical nightmare, but eventually me and two kids I recruited to be announcers broadcast these games (in English, the only saving educational value), and the whole school watched. For two hours. ANd it was shitty, shitty play... but the kids loved it. Not just those who played, but the 15 year old girls who don't give a shit about games still got behind their classmates and cheered for them. This type of accessibility is not available for SC2 right now. IN fact, SC2 has gone out of its way to make it ridiculously difficult to have these kinds of events. So don't be surprised if professional BW continues to propagate new generations of fans every year: the excellence of the gameplay + its accessibility will outweigh, in the long run, any sort of shiny new graphics. If SC2 wants what BW has, they need to make sure their game is up to the exacting standards of a competitive BW match... and they need to try to be more inclusive. Not everyone has top notch graphic cards and computers these days, especially outside the US
This is a great post. I support it completely.
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On January 07 2011 09:39 dcberkeley wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
It's like you guys are trying to deny the rise of Rock n' Roll. Yes, there are flaws in GOM's approach and in Blizz's approach, but the slow, laborious nature of Blizzard's implementation just means that everyone needs to be patient. I could really care less about the Korean scene and if Broodwar becomes the standard there, because the Western world absolutely has no signs of turning back to BW. Broodwar has lost the potential for new fans, it just simply looks and acts too archaic. Starcraft II is the future... so for all of you singing doomsday a) Don't be negative and stereotypical pompous nerds..no one enjoys that and b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls. So instead of whining about bad maps, support map makers. Instead of screaming about all-ins, learn to combat them so effectively that they die out in popularity. Purist, fundamentalists resistent to change have never thrived in any time during history, I doubt they will now. There are so many wrong things about this post, I'm not sure you understand that TL was born for the love of BW and nobody who came here for BW wants it to die. And frankly if BW died, there'd be serious consequences for eSports. SC2? Not so much.
lol "Serious consequences" like what?
if bw die it could affect korea esport but it wont move a thing outside of korea.
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I think if a new map pool was created, with each base having 5 mineral clusters and 1 gas, closed-in nats, and larger map sizes, SCII would suddenly become a much more interesting game to watch.
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EPT
