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On January 07 2011 09:15 ShadowWolf wrote:
It's a problem that's not nearly as easy to solve as a lot of people seem to think it is, but it definitely needs to be solved sooner rather than later because it's a major issue with Starcraft 2 being a legit e-sport.
They should just come up with a new system really, leagues Bronze-Diamond should use the normal terrible ladder maps we are using now.
Masters - Grand Masters league should have a different map pool than the lower leagues, consisting of more "complicated" pro-maps.
Wouldn't that solve the issue of Blizzard not wanting to "overly complicate" the maps for the majority?
Would there really be any obvious problems with a system like that? I'm not a programmer or anything but it doesn't really seem that crazy that the matchmaking would take care of making sure the map pools were seperate?
(Majority being the players in Bronze/Silver/Gold/Plat/Diamond.)
@People saying BW became successful because it was really balanced;
While that might be true, games does not have to be balanced to be a decent e-sport game, the number one reason BW got popular was because it was fun to watch and at least in the early days of BW that wasn't as a direct result of the balance, it got lucky and hit a nice balance but the balance could have been a lot worse and the game would still have been just as popular.
The balance (and mostly the way kespa mapmakers made the maps) definitely made the game last a lot longer than it would have with shit balance though.
But when you see stuff like WoW arena, console stuff like Halo, Tekken, Brawl, Fifa being extremely popular spectator-wise then you see how big stuff can be simply because people find it fun to watch and not because of the balance (within reason obviously, any really major imbalances would obviously break everything).
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On January 07 2011 09:27 bmml wrote:
Although I still watch both SC2 and BW when watching SC2 I much prefer watching foreigner tournaments and find them to be overall far more engaging and exciting even if they are less "skilled" perhaps this is just some form of mild racism or something but I just find the foreign "pro" scene to be far more interesting.
I agree with this (in sc2, not BW), the foreigner scene is much more entertaining, due to a wider variety of strategies and interaction with the fans and all.
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Frankly even if this is an accurate assessment of the state of SC2 in Korea, I don't particularly care if the foreign can stay alive and slowly get better.
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On January 07 2011 09:28 Aegeis wrote:
I don't see SC2 becoming much bigger in Korea but if some major changes are made for Heart of the Swarm It's totally possible. The way I see it we have 1 more shot with HotS, hopefully by then Kespa OGN/MBC trials are done with.
This is my thoughts exactly, I'll wait till HotS before I call SC2 a failure.
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Fortunally for us blizzard is a company that listens to their community. They might be slow, but they do listen. Just keep the rage going 
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On January 07 2011 09:21 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:17 infinity2k9 wrote:
If only they just made SC2 proleague and OSL/MSL2 from the start, and Blizzard didn't interrupt at all then this could have been averted so so easily. all the teams would have an SC2 division already and the ENTIRE INFRASTRUCTURE IS ALREADY IN PLACE!!! Like a lot of us were saying at the time, why alienate the people who are running the BW scene fro the sake of money when the free marketing from it simply running is priceless?
Then there's the actual games and immediately you can see the difference. Jangbi storms will never be jangbi storms if literally anybody can do them. Except this wasn't going to happen at all. KeSPA was just going to completely ignore SC2 and we'd have 0 leagues for SC2.
What? What gives you that idea at all. Of course they would do leagues for it if it was even possible, why wouldn't they? They didn't reject WC3 because they already had BW. But it doesn't even have LAN...
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It's like you guys are trying to deny the rise of Rock n' Roll. Yes, there are flaws in GOM's approach and in Blizz's approach, but the slow, laborious nature of Blizzard's implementation just means that everyone needs to be patient. I could really care less about the Korean scene and if Broodwar becomes the standard there, because the Western world absolutely has no signs of turning back to BW. Broodwar has lost the potential for new fans, it just simply looks and acts too archaic. Starcraft II is the future... so for all of you singing doomsday a) Don't be negative and stereotypical pompous nerds..no one enjoys that and b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls. So instead of whining about bad maps, support map makers. Instead of screaming about all-ins, learn to combat them so effectively that they die out in popularity. Purist, fundamentalists resistent to change have never thrived in any time during history, I doubt they will now.
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On January 07 2011 09:30 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:28 Aegeis wrote:
I don't see SC2 becoming much bigger in Korea but if some major changes are made for Heart of the Swarm It's totally possible. The way I see it we have 1 more shot with HotS, hopefully by then Kespa OGN/MBC trials are done with. This is my thoughts exactly, I'll wait till HotS before I call SC2 a failure.
I think this sums it up good. Blizzard has their destiny in their own hands.
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You know, while I agree larger map in the ladder pools and tournament play similar to those in BW would allow both more dynamic all in risks as well as larger macro based games, and wish to see them creep up to try to fix some of the problems we're seeing, another poster kind of mentioned it and I think it needs to be hammered home.
Larger maps, while extending the game for say, terrans, or zerg early game, do absolutely nothing to hinder protoss from being able to all in as soon as warpgate tech is done. I'd like to see how the meta game shifts if we were in fact given large maps, and given millions of gamers to play them out and hash out strategies, but i can't see a way around fixing warpgates. 1 pylon somewhere and the entirety of a protoss army can bypass a large map that is supposed to "promote macro play". Zerg likewise can do the same once they get nydus because now nydus doesn't require creep the way it did in BW. The ability to place units basically anywhere, at anytime with little to no drawback will just shift the meta game to abusing warpgate and worm games, while terran will be forced to play an endless fuckfest game of covering every possible entrance into their base while expanding unsafely, and relying on dropship play which is inferior in almost everyway to warpgate or nydus.
Lose a pylon? build another one, no units lost, pylon down? instant units at location, and in heavy macro games, you better believe insane 8-12 warpgate pushes are going to exist, meanwhile terran need to have 12-15 raxes to keep up with that kind of unit production, that requires build time not instant warp in, and HAS to come out of their main/natural instead of at the enemy base or at their newest expo where the only place they're getting minerals out of is coming from.
Likewise lose a a nydus worm? oh wells, all of the units in the tunnel are still there, just try to set up another one elsewhere, or wait till they push out and send an overlord over and crush their out of place army, while you can both be on offense, AND retreat back to defense in event of counter attack.
I just don't see how this can be resolved, while I'd like to see more macro based games due to larger maps that we're all hoping for, the core mechanics of the 3 different races, leave races at huge disadvantages once certain tech paths are reached that can't be made up for with just different BOs or skill.
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On January 07 2011 09:31 Armsved wrote:Fortunally for us blizzard is a company that listens to their community. They might be slow, but they do listen. Just keep the rage going
first of all they listen to $$$. and many changes that might make the game way better to watch/for competive play might scare their casual newbie customerbase which is nothing they will do.
On January 07 2011 09:32 DyEnasTy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:30 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 09:28 Aegeis wrote:
I don't see SC2 becoming much bigger in Korea but if some major changes are made for Heart of the Swarm It's totally possible. The way I see it we have 1 more shot with HotS, hopefully by then Kespa OGN/MBC trials are done with. This is my thoughts exactly, I'll wait till HotS before I call SC2 a failure. I think this sums it up good. Blizzard has their destiny in their own hands.
yeah the good thing is that they have 2 tries to make sc2 what it needs to be. at this point and with their history since beta i doubt it. but we can hope eh
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On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls.
no. thats the last thing it would really happen.
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The quality of most games at the GSL are incredibly low, if any Koreans are getting their first taste of high-level SC2 by tuning in on any random day they're likely to see a sub-10minute game where some sort of simple rush completely decimates their opponent. And this is due to the flawed design of SC2. Its way too easy to punish even slight deviation to higher teching or macro. The game is high-level tic-tac-toe.
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On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
Broodwar has lost the potential for new fans, it just simply looks and acts too archaic. Starcraft II is the future...
so you say
i wonder how many people watched GSL for ret and then switched over when MSL matches started. i know i did.
frankly watching sc2 is boring for me. the new units lack any flavor or interesting aspects. watching 2 people build a base and then death ball into each others death ball and then gg pops up... bleh.
Kespa would of/might have picked up sc2 leagues had the game been popular and without this ridiculous pressure from blizzard. who knows it's too late now.
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i dont want to hate on sc2 too much because I've made it clear in previous posts I'm not a fan of the game (right now) and I don't want to make this thread into a BW vs SC2 thread. But I will say one thing: I finally tuned into the GSL to watch Jinro vs whoever in the GSL Season 3 Ro4. And yeah I guess it's unfair of me to judge a game based on one viewing experience... but that one viewing experience was fucking HORRIBLE. I felt I was watching a BW terran die to 1.) a zealot poke , 2.) a reaver drop, 3.) 2 gate dragoon range. And then there's other things, aesthetic things... like the lighting. So dark and blue. And the announcers: they look/sound like chumps, especially the woman!!!!
Contrast that with the viewing experience I recently had with BW. I finally convinced my gf to come watch a game with me at Yongsan. We go on christmas, thinking we'll watch KT vs SK but it was STX vs ACE. No biggie. We arrived 2 hours early (cuz of a HORRIBLE viewing experience from the christmas a year prior, where literally 600 people were forced to wait outside in the cold yelling at each other to watch Flash vs Jaedong) and write our names on the list. THen we go shopping.
We come back an hour later, they read off our names and we get in line. We sit in the stands in pretty good seats. Because it's christmas, we got free pizza hut pizza. We also got Proleague day planners which were pretty cool. Announcers are great per usual. ACE is just an awesome team to root for and its existence shouldn't be discounted as a huge selling point for BW. When Xellos hides his 2 fac from Shuttle the audience goes woooo. Game 2, Ruby beats Turn? with a clever clever cheese. You can feel the excitement coursing through the stands when he built his barracks in Turn's base. Game 4 is a macro beatdown by FBH. FBH finishes the game with this cocky ass look on his face, and the crowd anticipates some sort of subtle-yet-awesome ceremony. THis is cuz the longevity of the system and the players has created a personal attachment for the player; contrast that with a GSL, where a player's longevity is relatively short lived, making it that much more difficult to create compelling storylines.
My gf left the game saying "let's watch ACE again someday". How does Kespa do it? I don't know. But they create a viewing experience that's fun for the hardcore and softcore fans alike. There's some subtle marketing genius in play here, not just through blatant advertising but in creating a movie-like experience, a compelling hybrid of theater and sports, coupled with good looking/accessible stars, great aesthetics/ambiance and great announcers. I'm not saying it's impossible for GOM to replicate this. But I don't think the problem is simply that the game is less interesting to watch right now, and the presentation of the show needs to more highly regarded as a competitive feature.
PS: Please stop with the metal suits for the male announcers! Dress them up in something classy plzzzz
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On January 07 2011 09:34 lofung wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls. no. thats the last thing it would really happen.
BW isn't going to grow, though if we are lucky it will stay alive
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On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
It's like you guys are trying to deny the rise of Rock n' Roll. Yes, there are flaws in GOM's approach and in Blizz's approach, but the slow, laborious nature of Blizzard's implementation just means that everyone needs to be patient. I could really care less about the Korean scene and if Broodwar becomes the standard there, because the Western world absolutely has no signs of turning back to BW. Broodwar has lost the potential for new fans, it just simply looks and acts too archaic. Starcraft II is the future... so for all of you singing doomsday a) Don't be negative and stereotypical pompous nerds..no one enjoys that and b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls. So instead of whining about bad maps, support map makers. Instead of screaming about all-ins, learn to combat them so effectively that they die out in popularity. Purist, fundamentalists resistent to change have never thrived in any time during history, I doubt they will now.
I don't think you even read the thread or understand opinions properly. It's not BW vs SC2 they can easily both exist and have proscenes, just one is clearly done right and one is clearly done wrong and has been run amateurishly. It's obviously better to build on one scene that deliberately force a split like Blizzard has. Then there's also the game itself being a problem because it has less spectator friendly moments.
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On January 07 2011 09:30 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:27 bmml wrote:
Although I still watch both SC2 and BW when watching SC2 I much prefer watching foreigner tournaments and find them to be overall far more engaging and exciting even if they are less "skilled" perhaps this is just some form of mild racism or something but I just find the foreign "pro" scene to be far more interesting. I agree with this (in sc2, not BW), the foreigner scene is much more entertaining, due to a wider variety of strategies and interaction with the fans and all.
Exactly MLG, Dreamhack and ESL are all events GSL just doesn't feel like a event to me.
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On January 07 2011 09:34 Elwar wrote:
The quality of most games at the GSL are incredibly low, if any Koreans are getting their first taste of high-level SC2 by tuning in on any random day they're likely to see a sub-10minute game where some sort of simple rush completely decimates their opponent. And this is due to the flawed design of SC2. Its way too easy to punish even slight deviation to higher teching or macro. The game is high-level tic-tac-toe.
had a friend who was into one of those c&c games some time ago. after watching 2 games of sc2 he said it looks just as shitty as that c&c game became with one or two early builds dominating evrything with a simple move command.
made me sad. even sadder when i noticed that most of gsl3 looked exactly like that.
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A things to make the games more interesting.
1. Lower cost of nexus/hatch/command center by 100 minerals
2. Lower Minerals on each base to 6.
3. remove 1 gas, increase gas rate by 50% on each base
4. Remove all small maps like steppes and blistering.
Basically slow the game down a little. The majority of the excitement from the game comes from attacks with a handful of units. 2 giant balls attacking each other is not fun to watch.
The other idea is to lower the attack animation on a lot of units so they can be microed like marines. Stalkers, hydras, immortals, hellions, etc would all be a lot more fun if they had little to no delay before firing. It would also allow players to come back from a disadvantage. Imagine if hellions had no firing delay!!! It would look a lot cooler. Also this would allow lan events to be played at a different level since latency would be an issue. Finally remove some of the hard counters. They make the game too much about coin flipping.
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On January 07 2011 09:33 Kazeyonoma wrote:
You know, while I agree larger map in the ladder pools and tournament play similar to those in BW would allow both more dynamic all in risks as well as larger macro based games, and wish to see them creep up to try to fix some of the problems we're seeing, another poster kind of mentioned it and I think it needs to be hammered home.
Larger maps, while extending the game for say, terrans, or zerg early game, do absolutely nothing to hinder protoss from being able to all in as soon as warpgate tech is done. I'd like to see how the meta game shifts if we were in fact given large maps, and given millions of gamers to play them out and hash out strategies, but i can't see a way around fixing warpgates. 1 pylon somewhere and the entirety of a protoss army can bypass a large map that is supposed to "promote macro play". Zerg likewise can do the same once they get nydus because now nydus doesn't require creep the way it did in BW. The ability to place units basically anywhere, at anytime with little to no drawback will just shift the meta game to abusing warpgate and worm games, while terran will be forced to play an endless fuckfest game of covering every possible entrance into their base while expanding unsafely, and relying on dropship play which is inferior in almost everyway to warpgate or nydus.
Lose a pylon? build another one, no units lost, pylon down? instant units at location, and in heavy macro games, you better believe insane 8-12 warpgate pushes are going to exist, meanwhile terran need to have 12-15 raxes to keep up with that kind of unit production, that requires build time not instant warp in, and HAS to come out of their main/natural instead of at the enemy base or at their newest expo where the only place they're getting minerals out of is coming from.
Likewise lose a a nydus worm? oh wells, all of the units in the tunnel are still there, just try to set up another one elsewhere, or wait till they push out and send an overlord over and crush their out of place army, while you can both be on offense, AND retreat back to defense in event of counter attack.
I just don't see how this can be resolved, while I'd like to see more macro based games due to larger maps that we're all hoping for, the core mechanics of the 3 different races, leave races at huge disadvantages once certain tech paths are reached that can't be made up for with just different BOs or skill.
Many of these issues were solved in BW (though it was only nydus and arbiters) by the fact that tanks weren't kinda shitty, terrans could dominate sides of the map with a strong tank line, and toss / zerg needed the higher tech units to counter such beastly tank lines. That said I didn't watch early BW so have no idea how this started out.
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EPT
