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I'm so glad people are finally figuring out what I have been screaming for months, these maps are bullshit.
Well I agree with you that changing the maps would undoubtedly help the scene I think you may be overemphasizing their importance, I mean we have seen marine/scv stuff and cannon play on even the big maps in the pool like shakuras not to mention on the ICC events (although it is far less frequent there than GSL for instance). I think at its core the macro mechanics if used aggressively allow for very powerful early attacks that are very hard to scout and are in essence an attacker's advantage. That is kind of getting off topic but I just wanted to point out that at least in my opinion changing the map pool doesn't seem like an instant fix to the low quality games issue.
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Ive been following bw for a while, but never watched wc3. What happened on wc3 with the maps and all?
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starcraft 2 just simply needs more time. players need to fine-tune their skills. people playing bw have been doing so for 12+ years. once we get 2 or 3 years into the game then progamers will have perfect micro/spread/positioning just like in bw and in return will produce better games.
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GSL should manage their money more wisely.
even if they inreased 1st place money to $200,000 ppl would not suddenly drop their university
degree and come join GSL and risk it all.
People in korea are well aware of progammers playing 24/7 and its almost impossible for typical gamers to start competing againts them.
GSL should find better way to allocate their prize money, this is really getting out of hand.
The next thing you know is, if they are not pleased with their profit, they will shut things down fast.
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On January 07 2011 09:20 Lipski wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:16 Deadlyhazard wrote:
You guys really think an expansion will save the tournament scene for SC2?
Blizzard has had a decade of knowledge and experience of the kinks and knots of e-sports and StarCraft balance, yet SC2 is horrible and they didn't even try to follow the simple guidelines of what made SC1's scene great, including the long macro maps. maps in bw were not made by blizzard. and it took time for community to come up with new maps. eventually custom melee maps will take over. look, today we got justin.tv invitational, 400$ tournament with a lot of top players, and finals first map is iCCup Valhalla. yet you seem to think sc2 has already fallen. just give this game more time, guys.
People keep saying this but things aren't changing, blizzard being so slow, ok it hasnt been realsed for a year yet but I doubt that anything needs this much time too flourish, especially a computer game :/
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On January 07 2011 09:23 Megaliskuu wrote:
Ive been following bw for a while, but never watched wc3. What happened on wc3 with the maps and all?
The map pool NEVER changes. It's always god damn turtle rock.
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On January 07 2011 09:23 Megaliskuu wrote:
Ive been following bw for a while, but never watched wc3. What happened on wc3 with the maps and all?
They never changed them. Over its entire life span I think there were 2 new maps added to the ladder
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On January 07 2011 09:03 TheGiftedApe wrote:
99% of people who watch, dont want to watch 5 minute games. It's simply not exciting. The people who say oh well you do whatever you have too to win. That's true, but this is a spectator sport, people dont want to watch you build 5 marines, and pull your scv's and all-in. That is such a simple stupid tactic 100% of watchers think, well I could do that, what am I watching this crap for. If I wanted to see a cannon rush, or a marine all in, I would just play ladder, ...
this is very true and imho applies to way too much in sc2.
bw always has this magic where there always was ton of pro micro ,multitasking or pure genius in evry game.
in sc2 you will have that "wooaah that was cool. i could never do that!" feeling maybe once evry15 games. scenes like mvps recent nice split vs zenio that entertain and amaze people are so freakin rare but in broodwar stuff like that is pretty much standart and happens multiple times in evry game.
even the most basic strategies and moves in bw are impressive. look at pvt the toss flanking from 3 sides the big terran push. it just looks amazing and evryone can appreciate the setupd,multitasking,micro and tactics like zealot bombing. in sc2 the battle looks boring and evryone thinks "keke 1a -_-".
i realize that we have a problem here cause much of that amazement in bw is cause evrything is hard to do with 12units/group, no smartcasting etc. but blizzard replacing cool micro units that create "WHOAH!" effects like vultures and reavers with stupid boring aclick units doesnt help either.
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On January 07 2011 09:24 Johnranger-123 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:20 Lipski wrote:On January 07 2011 09:16 Deadlyhazard wrote:
You guys really think an expansion will save the tournament scene for SC2?
Blizzard has had a decade of knowledge and experience of the kinks and knots of e-sports and StarCraft balance, yet SC2 is horrible and they didn't even try to follow the simple guidelines of what made SC1's scene great, including the long macro maps. maps in bw were not made by blizzard. and it took time for community to come up with new maps. eventually custom melee maps will take over. look, today we got justin.tv invitational, 400$ tournament with a lot of top players, and finals first map is iCCup Valhalla. yet you seem to think sc2 has already fallen. just give this game more time, guys. People keep saying this but things aren't changing, blizzard being so slow, ok it hasnt been realsed for a year yet but I doubt that anything needs this much time too flourish, especially a computer game :/
I think Blizzard should really be punished for the laziness on this one. They shouldn't depend on the community alone to grow their game like BW did.
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I wanna take the idea from the first page, to delay the stream for different timezones. That would get me to buy a ticket maybe, because I know I get sth for my ticket, but when its like now I must be lucky that "my games" are on the days, where my schedule allows me to watch them.
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On January 07 2011 08:21 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 08:11 pfods wrote:
I think korea needs to look outwards if it wants to survive as the mecca of starcraft and esports. They can only live on broodwar for so long, especially with so many of the pros switching over to starcraft 2. For one, a revision of how GOM presents the GSL to the west would be great. I know a lot of people that would watch if it weren't on at 4 in the morning. It's nice to have a livestream and all, but perhaps a delayed stream per each timezone would be better. Guaranteed to attract more viewers, and if they put ads in the stream, they would acquire revenue to promote themselves and the game more than they do now.
That said, I know blizzard wants starcraft 2 to succeed in esports(at least I hope they do). If korea fails to deliver, I can easily see blizzard stepping up and hosting a GSL like tournament. Korea has the interest, infrastructure, and legacy; they're nowhere near getting supplanted as the worldwide mecca of ESPORTS. If Sc2 fails as an ESPORT in Korea, then it will have failed as an ESPORT period. Success at the occasional big lan and WCG is nowhere near the kind of exposure or success that the Korean BW model has achieved. Plenty of games fit into the Western model, but the goal all along has been for Sc2 to aspire to something higher than that. And I'm less convinced than you are that Blizzard cares about the future of ESPORTS. I'm pretty positive that they're either completely incompetent, or they don't care in the slightest. Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 08:20 Dont Panic wrote:
I think it's more of Blizzard's fault than GOMs. The units aren't as interesting and the maps are terrible. I'd expect GOM to have some say in the maps, but perhaps they don't. I think enough Sc2 units are interesting to make it decent watching. I think the fault lies with Blizzard's anti-competitive attitude towards the scene. Giving exclusive rights of a fledgling game to a company that consistently demonstrates the business acumen of a group of five year olds was not a smart move. OGN and MBC should've gotten the first crack at Sc2.
Im glad you said it first. I feel very strongly (IMO) that Blizzards primary focus is profit over Esports. And this has shown true in how they've handled SC2 overall. Alot of their choices dumbfound top players, and blizzard has even stated they they take lower levels and team play into consideration when making decisions. That to me is very very bad and shows that as long as the "masses" are happy, than more people will play and thats what seems to be driving these poor decisions involving esports (maps, balance choices ect)
Now think about decisions involving B.net. Things that set BW apart. Things like chat channels, LAN, cross region play. These things were/are so important, and again, it seems Blizzard is turning a blind eye and instead focusing on stupid shit like this
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1316152#blog
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1829963#blog
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1734667#blog
These are just the most recent. It also appears that koreans might enjoy knowing the actual skill that goes into BW, over the amount it takes to be in GSL.
SC2 has the huge potential I will admit. But Blizzard isnt the same Blizzard. So if Blizzard doesnt fix the huge hole in their ship, people will start losing interest in SC2 as an esport. Sorry for the rant.
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War3 was a bit different though. It had random elements that always had either big impacts or subtle impacts on how games went. I don't think it is/was as map Dependant as SC is. I could be wrong though.
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I'm,as many other, a huge Sc2 fan. However we have to be honest here: as a spectacle Sc2 (right now, with current balance and map pool) is totally bellow Sc bw. Bw games have more micro-spell-skilled battles, quality and quantity wise. Sc2 games are usually determined by a 5-8 sec battle (even at higher levels) or cheese.
The biggest issue of the game as a show is the speed/damage of the units, battles are at lightspeed, but the procduction of the units can't keep it up with that speed.
The other issue is the lack of skill-rewarding units. Key units are so stupidly easy to use (collosi), specially terran units (stim MMM,banshees, marauder drops, thor usage, scv all-ins, and so) that's why we see mostly terrans in top 200 ladders (design complain, not balance). If Blizz don't make some "reversal" patches, Sc2 will definitely, and sadly, fail as an e-sport.
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I think its fairly obvious after 4~ months of GSL's that Blizzard should have just burried the hatchet with Kespa and let them do their own thing with SC2, at the moment SC2 goes head to head with Broodwar's time slot, has pitiful sponsors and isn't on TV. I'd imagine Kespa would have tried to blur the two scenes together rather than holding one in stark contrast to another, though perhaps this would have just further highlighted the fact that top BW is more technically demanding (and thus often more exciting) than SC2.
The only people to blame for SC2's failure in the Korean Esports scene is Blizzard.
Although I still watch both SC2 and BW when watching SC2 I much prefer watching foreigner tournaments and find them to be overall far more engaging and exciting even if they are less "skilled" perhaps this is just some form of mild racism or something but I just find the foreign "pro" scene to be far more interesting.
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On January 07 2011 09:23 Megaliskuu wrote:
Ive been following bw for a while, but never watched wc3. What happened on wc3 with the maps and all? Maps never changed, but thankfully map pool was pretty good. Unlike in sc2...
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On January 07 2011 09:23 Megaliskuu wrote:
Ive been following bw for a while, but never watched wc3. What happened on wc3 with the maps and all?
Blizzard made a custom map contest back in 2003 (?) put 2-3 maps from their + 5-6 of their own in the mappool and kept those maps until 2010 with 3 (?) new maps (also custom) in between.(Road to Stratholme, secet valley and melting valley i believe)
Most of the maps were quite OK, but they just never changed
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I don't see SC2 becoming much bigger in Korea but if some major changes are made for Heart of the Swarm It's totally possible. The way I see it we have 1 more shot with HotS, hopefully by then Kespa OGN/MBC trials are done with.
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To be honest I think player skill is a larger factor than people are giving it credit for. A lot of people complain about all-in's and 1 base play, but why do you think that happens? It's a hell of a lot easier to do than play off multiple bases. Jinro gained so many fans because he actually showed us a macro terran for a few games which is just shocking and unusual lately. Nada's game against leenock on Shakuras was freaking crazy because that was the first real macro TvZ that people had seen in a long time. People LOVE that shit, but no one knows how to pull it off consistently. Boxer looked damn fantastic in his GSL code S matches, and we actually saw a micro based player play macro games and it was gloriously entertaining.
I don't mean to only pick Terran's, I know there are some macro toss like Genius and Tester too, and we all know Zerg's want every game to be a macro game(Except for maybe FD...the original macro Zerg :||||||).
I totally just want to say that it's the one dimensional bitbybit's that are killing the entertainment value of SC2. On some maps like steppes and delta these short games are unavoidable even as a macro player, but even on bigger maps too many GSL players of A/S class caliber are only comfortable taking their nat and then doing big attacks off 2 base, and only take their 3rd as a last resort. There is still a lot of improvement to be had for SC2 pros, and when they get better the games will as well(with the help of some non-retarded maps).
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On January 07 2011 09:26 Numy wrote:
War3 was a bit different though. It had random elements that always had either big impacts or subtle impacts on how games went. I don't think it is/was as map Dependant as SC is. I could be wrong though.
wc3 map differences were more related to creeps & items favoring certain races or tactics. way less the actual terrain layout.
starcraft totally relies on maps and good terrain. it totally changes the game in evry aspect including balance.
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On January 07 2011 09:11 Blurzz wrote:I think the game will grow in popularity when the quality of games is higher. Right now it's a bunch of 1-2 base all-ins or cheeses, and if it's not that it's the most boring macro games where they just sit back the entire game and build up a force. Whether thats a good tactic or not it's hella boring to watch game after game. GSL Fruitdealer vs. IMMvP Spoilers + Show Spoiler +What a joke this game was. I literally was waiting in such anticipation about this game thinking from the moment I saw it was going to happen "wow, they might as well call this match the finals since the two best players are going to be playing." But then it's just a 2 rax that completely kills fruitdealer off. So a game I waited a week or so for ended in less that 10 minutes. What a joke, and games like this continue to pop up and it's starting to get frustrating as a viewer to see this happen over and over again. I'm sure alot of these will be remedied as the game grows, but for now the GSL in general isn't as fun to watch.
+ Show Spoiler +Well 2 rax isn't all that BS. In iloveoov's era he commonly used 2 rax expand like people are doing today. The diffrence is is that Zerg learned they can actually come out ahead if they build Frikkin Spine Crwlers rather then being Greedy bastards and thinking 2 spines will put you behind. Whats 2 spine crawlers if they manage to keep you in the game. Literally i've sarted to see alot of zergs defending 2 raxes with this mentality. Specifically IMMVP's other games against Zenio and Jook if i believe, where the built Spines for Defence. Even Idra's doing it. 2 rax isnt broken, just people are starting to solve it.
This should be the transition. Zerg 14 hatches, terran attacks and expands, Zerg Defends, Zerg takes a third.
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EPT
