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On January 07 2011 09:08 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:04 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I'm so glad people are finally figuring out what I have been screaming for months, these maps are bullshit. I've said the same thing but simply changing the maps won't magically increase attendance or overall popularity. I think most Koreans have chosen to not support Blizzard and Gom regardless of how good or attractive SC2 is because of the whole CR issue (and other, smaller events) that killed their popularity and overall reputation.
No one in Korea, a few netizens aside, cares about the copyright issue at all
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I don't agree with you who says that SC2 needs more time. The world is diffrent from now and 10 years ago. Back then there wasn't any esport or any team leagues. 10 years ago it took longer for new things to sell and get popular. Today it´s much easier to reach out to customers and audience. Sc2 hade everything ready for success in Korea but it hasnt made it and if they dont in 2011 i think it will be over for the esports of sc2 to get as big as BW. It would have been diffrent if Blizzard and MBC/OGN could have agreed about the next generation.. but now all of them will be to stubborn to admit defeat. I really hope Im wrong thou.
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The thing is, SC2 is way to fast. Like, if there's a battle and you have one less unit than you should, you lose the game.
In most SC2 games, you can know who's gonna win with like 95% after like 8 minutes.
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I think the game will grow in popularity when the quality of games is higher. Right now it's a bunch of 1-2 base all-ins or cheeses, and if it's not that it's the most boring macro games where they just sit back the entire game and build up a force. Whether thats a good tactic or not it's hella boring to watch game after game.
GSL Fruitdealer vs. IMMvP Spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +What a joke this game was. I literally was waiting in such anticipation about this game thinking from the moment I saw it was going to happen "wow, they might as well call this match the finals since the two best players are going to be playing." But then it's just a 2 rax that completely kills fruitdealer off. So a game I waited a week or so for ended in less that 10 minutes. What a joke, and games like this continue to pop up and it's starting to get frustrating as a viewer to see this happen over and over again.
I'm sure alot of these will be remedied as the game grows, but for now the GSL in general isn't as fun to watch.
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On January 07 2011 09:09 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:08 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:55 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:46 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:33 Fa1nT wrote:
SC2 will get more popular as SC1 gets less popular
SC2 will also get more popular when the games and maps are more balanced
SC2 is not even a full year old yet and already has large scale tourneys with hundreds of thousands of online viewers, how far into SC1's lifetime did it take for that to happen? At least a few years. ah i love it :D SC1 had no god damn esports background when it came out. and yet it made it this big? do u think SCII could make this?. SCII has 10+ years of esports background and they are on a level where BW was dunno... like 9 8 7 years ago? now tell me if that is good or bad  and i love what has 2 happen so SCII becomes "good". Need good maps and balance (:D balance wont happen. BW was lucky) and because this wont happen SCII will never be more popular. Wow you know it almost SOUNDS like YOU want it to fail.. You do realize why SC was never popular but BW was right? Balance I'd wait at least till HotS before you start claiming SC2 could never reach BW popularity. IMO Balance is what makes a competitive seen viable and honestly that's what's will make or break SC2. If SCII failing means i still have BW yes i want it 2 fail. like HotS will change something if the maps are still crap. and peopel still can allin into a final. and again SC/SC:BW had what back then? nothing. and it became big. SCII had all this stuff that was built up and still failed big time... SC was nothing till BW; balance was horrendous at best. I don't think you realize HotS can Change EVERYTHING. Just because a game has money thrown at it and fails doesn't mean that, it later can't succeed. People never watched BW cause of the prize pools, but because of the competitive nature. (that was highly balanced) Basically if blizzard can just get more players thee spectators will follow; which is why balance is so important. but why would players play sc2, an unbalanced game according to you, when bw is already perfectly balanced and enjoyable to watch?
Because thats where the money is nowadys  , and players want money.
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The game itself is the problem. You can't just pour money and even high production value into a game and have it become a successful spectator sport. The game itself has to function as a spectator sport, and honestly, I don't think Starcraft 2 fulfills that role. For example, Tetris is a great game, has a decent pro scene, and tons of casual players around the world, and has no imbalances, no all-ins. But Tetris will never become an extremely popular spectator sport, because most people just don't enjoy watching it.
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As has been pointed out repeatedly, the quality of the games just aren't close to BW level, be it because of the maps or flaws in the design of the game itself or whatever else.
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On January 07 2011 09:06 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 08:58 heishe wrote:
It's really weird, and I hate to say it since the SC2 beta has brought me to teamliquid.net (and I will stay here forever <3) , but SC2 simply is not fun.
14 out of 15 games are the same. All-in vs defensive play. Literally.
When you win against an all-in, it isn't actually fun. You don't have that *fist pump* feeling where you feel like you've actually accomplished something. Your opponent just allin-ed and he failed.
The very next game though your opponent all-ins again, but this time he wins. And it makes you angry, because it's so retarded.
When you win with an all-in, it isn't fun either. Basically all of the all-in strategies don't require a lot of skill. They require a lot of training to be perfected, yes, but not a lot of the things about skill that makes you stand apart from a non-skilled player (understanding of the game, smart adaption, etc.).
Games are decided at short moments in the game. You defend the all-in push or you don't. You lose a lot of workers to those banshees or you don't. Most of these things, over the course of the game, completely decide the game. No way to turn it around with better decision making or anything like that. I've played both BW (not a lot, but I did), and WC3 (a lot), and in neither of those games did it feel like it does now in SC2. In those two games, it was always a long ongoing struggle where little mistakes and small good moves decided the outcome, (and usually) not some kind of 6-minute-mark push.
The maps all suck. Literally, there is no decent map. Even Metalopolis has it's extreme downsides on closed positions, and Shakuras was a lame Protoss-favoured map.
I'm not even talking about imbalances here, since those don't matter at all when a game simply isn't fun.
To sum this all up: It simply isn't fun. Unless you're at the very top and win tournaments, playing Starcraft 2 simply isn't fun. It isn't rewarding. It isn't especially mind-challenging. And that transfers to observing, at least for me. I strongly feel this is the case too. SC2 doesn't punish a mistake, it fucking destroys you for it. There is no fighting back. If you scout something 20 seconds too late it's over game is done. If you miss the all in for a fraction it's over game is done. If you prepare for an all in but he goes macro it's over game is done. Everything is just too dam fast. I mean in BW you don't become max off 2 bases 12 minutes into the game. There's build up time, there's fightings across the map. Removing the macro mechanics and making better maps would make this game so much better. There's so much potential, it annoys me so much.
Exactly this. If you make any mistakes in the first 10 minutes you lose the game. period. It doesn't matter what it was, you've lost.
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On January 07 2011 09:11 debasers wrote:
The thing is, SC2 is way to fast. Like, if there's a battle and you have one less unit than you should, you lose the game.
In most SC2 games, you can know who's gonna win with like 95% after like 8 minutes.
Exactly, SC2 needs to be slowed down man. I remember quotes from BW coaches now in SC2 saying how much faster they thought SC2 was and it's so true.
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On January 07 2011 09:11 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:09 etheovermind wrote:On January 07 2011 09:08 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:55 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:46 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:33 Fa1nT wrote:
SC2 will get more popular as SC1 gets less popular
SC2 will also get more popular when the games and maps are more balanced
SC2 is not even a full year old yet and already has large scale tourneys with hundreds of thousands of online viewers, how far into SC1's lifetime did it take for that to happen? At least a few years. ah i love it :D SC1 had no god damn esports background when it came out. and yet it made it this big? do u think SCII could make this?. SCII has 10+ years of esports background and they are on a level where BW was dunno... like 9 8 7 years ago? now tell me if that is good or bad and i love what has 2 happen so SCII becomes "good". Need good maps and balance (:D balance wont happen. BW was lucky) and because this wont happen SCII will never be more popular. Wow you know it almost SOUNDS like YOU want it to fail.. You do realize why SC was never popular but BW was right? Balance I'd wait at least till HotS before you start claiming SC2 could never reach BW popularity. IMO Balance is what makes a competitive seen viable and honestly that's what's will make or break SC2. If SCII failing means i still have BW yes i want it 2 fail. like HotS will change something if the maps are still crap. and peopel still can allin into a final. and again SC/SC:BW had what back then? nothing. and it became big. SCII had all this stuff that was built up and still failed big time... SC was nothing till BW; balance was horrendous at best. I don't think you realize HotS can Change EVERYTHING. Just because a game has money thrown at it and fails doesn't mean that, it later can't succeed. People never watched BW cause of the prize pools, but because of the competitive nature. (that was highly balanced) Basically if blizzard can just get more players thee spectators will follow; which is why balance is so important. but why would players play sc2, an unbalanced game according to you, when bw is already perfectly balanced and enjoyable to watch? Because thats where the money is nowadys , and players want money.
but the money will run dry 1 day..
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On January 07 2011 09:08 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 08:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:55 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:46 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:33 Fa1nT wrote:
SC2 will get more popular as SC1 gets less popular
SC2 will also get more popular when the games and maps are more balanced
SC2 is not even a full year old yet and already has large scale tourneys with hundreds of thousands of online viewers, how far into SC1's lifetime did it take for that to happen? At least a few years. ah i love it :D SC1 had no god damn esports background when it came out. and yet it made it this big? do u think SCII could make this?. SCII has 10+ years of esports background and they are on a level where BW was dunno... like 9 8 7 years ago? now tell me if that is good or bad and i love what has 2 happen so SCII becomes "good". Need good maps and balance (:D balance wont happen. BW was lucky) and because this wont happen SCII will never be more popular. Wow you know it almost SOUNDS like YOU want it to fail.. You do realize why SC was never popular but BW was right? Balance I'd wait at least till HotS before you start claiming SC2 could never reach BW popularity. IMO Balance is what makes a competitive seen viable and honestly that's what's will make or break SC2. If SCII failing means i still have BW yes i want it 2 fail. like HotS will change something if the maps are still crap. and peopel still can allin into a final. and again SC/SC:BW had what back then? nothing. and it became big. SCII had all this stuff that was built up and still failed big time... SC was nothing till BW; balance was horrendous at best. I don't think you realize HotS can Change EVERYTHING. Just because a game has money thrown at it and fails doesn't mean that, it later can't succeed. People never watched BW cause of the prize pools, but because of the competitive nature. (that was highly balanced) Basically if blizzard can just get more players then the spectators will follow; which is why balance is so important.
I realize that blizzard was fucking lucky with SC:BW and it wont happen with SCII yes. and for the fact that SCII has this background EVERYTHIGN is terrible its on the level of vanilla SC which is fucking pathetic. it shouldnt be perfect balanced but god damn not that terrible...
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1 - bigger maps are more forgiving on mistakes
2 - reduce starting worker count back to 4?
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The real problem is the maps and since GSL won't use maps that aren't on the ladder and Blizz wont put good maps on the ladder because they say there too 'complicated'. It creates a circular system that will never be broken until blizz does something about it.
I said it during the beta that my main concern is that SC2 will have the same problem with WC3 when it comes to maps. It seems to me that my worst fear is in the process of becoming true.
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On January 07 2011 09:09 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:08 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:55 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:46 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:33 Fa1nT wrote:
SC2 will get more popular as SC1 gets less popular
SC2 will also get more popular when the games and maps are more balanced
SC2 is not even a full year old yet and already has large scale tourneys with hundreds of thousands of online viewers, how far into SC1's lifetime did it take for that to happen? At least a few years. ah i love it :D SC1 had no god damn esports background when it came out. and yet it made it this big? do u think SCII could make this?. SCII has 10+ years of esports background and they are on a level where BW was dunno... like 9 8 7 years ago? now tell me if that is good or bad and i love what has 2 happen so SCII becomes "good". Need good maps and balance (:D balance wont happen. BW was lucky) and because this wont happen SCII will never be more popular. Wow you know it almost SOUNDS like YOU want it to fail.. You do realize why SC was never popular but BW was right? Balance I'd wait at least till HotS before you start claiming SC2 could never reach BW popularity. IMO Balance is what makes a competitive seen viable and honestly that's what's will make or break SC2. If SCII failing means i still have BW yes i want it 2 fail. like HotS will change something if the maps are still crap. and peopel still can allin into a final. and again SC/SC:BW had what back then? nothing. and it became big. SCII had all this stuff that was built up and still failed big time... SC was nothing till BW; balance was horrendous at best. I don't think you realize HotS can Change EVERYTHING. Just because a game has money thrown at it and fails doesn't mean that, it later can't succeed. People never watched BW cause of the prize pools, but because of the competitive nature. (that was highly balanced) Basically if blizzard can just get more players thee spectators will follow; which is why balance is so important. but why would players play sc2, an unbalanced game according to you, when bw is already perfectly balanced and enjoyable to watch?
i transitioned because i want to become a successful progamer. obviously ppl play the newer game as its most likely going to replace the old one.
sc1 was near perfect for me as a game and perfect as a spectator sport.
i think most are just new and didnt play sc1. the ones who played sc1 and switched probably had and still has high hopes of this game to become a very good one and live up to its expectations
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On January 07 2011 09:12 Enervate wrote:
The game itself is the problem. You can't just pour money and even high production value into a game and have it become a successful spectator sport. The game itself has to function as a spectator sport, and honestly, I don't think Starcraft 2 fulfills that role. For example, Tetris is a great game, has a decent pro scene, and tons of casual players around the world, and has no imbalances, no all-ins. But Tetris will never become an extremely popular spectator sport, because most people just don't enjoy watching it.
hm, I actually think that you are completely wrong. For me RTS in general are the best spectator esports, just because you can see the most important stuff that's happening at any time.
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On January 07 2011 09:01 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:01 XsebT wrote:On January 07 2011 08:56 Milkis wrote:On January 07 2011 08:13 jalstar wrote:
GSL ceasing to exist would not be the end of SC2 in Korea, just the end of Blizzard/Gretech's monopoly. OGN had plans for an OS2L before Blizzard stepped in. OGN had no such plans. It's just an Artosis/Chinese rumor Yeah it was Hwanni who said that shit with nothing to back it up... I really feel stupid, as I remember getting all excited through Artosis' videos back then. Hwanni just implied at the possibility, and Artosis just snatched that up and went like "YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST! SC2 OSL" Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:01 d_so wrote:
they (GOM) will learn from their mistakes. as long as blizzard is willing to prop them up with $$$, they'll get better over time. Gom didn't really improve with the BW leagues either, so...
Gom BW leagues never overtook Kespa leagues but they did well as a niche league. Mass players, internet audience plus a strong foreign presence: these were the strong points of the Gom leagues, and they improved upon each as the seasons progressed.
I never was a big GOM fan but I'm curious how big GOM could have gotten if Kespa hadn't exercised it's (deserved) monopoly rights. One thing though I hated about GOM was that woman announcer. Holy crap she was annoying
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On January 07 2011 09:01 ProbeEtPylon wrote:
I don't know the development of SC at all. But as it seems toda there are way less all-ins/cheese etc.
How does it come? Did Blizzard have to patch the game in the "right direction" or were just the players becoming better at defending all-ins/cheese?
In my opinion, the only difference is maps. The maps in the BW tournaments lend themselves toward both the inability to recover from cheese most of the time as well as more macro-oriented play. Look at games on something like Shakuras and count the number of failed all-ins/cheese on that map versus, say, Blistering Sands, Delta Quadrant, or close position Metal. In BW, defending a cheese you could safely econ because there was just no way they could get a 2nd round of units to your doorstep fast enough to punish you. On, for example, Steppes of War that's absolutely not the case. Look at CatZ's 7 pool build on Steppes - that should absolutely result in a loss if you don't do an insane amount of damage, but it most definitely doesn't. If your opponent tries to boom after you attack doing even a slight amount of damage, you can follow up with enough roaches fast enough to break him. That's why you see all-in all-day. On the flip side, try the same 7-pool strategy on Shakuras or Iccup.MatchPoint - just like most maps in BW.
The major problem is that Blizzard wants GOMtv et. al. to come up with map pools oriented toward tournament play. While their stance on this is legitimately interesting, the way Blizzcon and the ladder is formatted kind of make this really challenging to pull off. Basically, Pros would have to practice on two separate map pools: Blizzards and Gomtvs. BW isn't designed like that at all.
It's a problem that's not nearly as easy to solve as a lot of people seem to think it is, but it definitely needs to be solved sooner rather than later because it's a major issue with Starcraft 2 being a legit e-sport.
As someone who played on iccup, I don't really see any major difference in the amount of cheese or all-ins between the ladders. Granted, I never played BW anywhere nearly as regularly as SC2, so it could be sample bias, but based on discussions with other people who were in the D/C range, it seems like a reasonably consistent viewpoint. The difference was mainly that all-ins required more thought and strategy to execute because there was basically rarely a legitimate exit strategy if you didn't win right then and there.
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You guys really think an expansion will save the tournament scene for SC2?
Blizzard has had a decade of knowledge and experience of the kinks and knots of e-sports and StarCraft balance, yet SC2 is horrible and they didn't even try to follow the simple guidelines of what made SC1's scene great, including the long macro maps. I guess they thought the average WoW or Halo fan would switch over ready to be excited over impulsive 5 minute games that end in an all-in rush?
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Nobody shows up for MSL survivor tourneys either or for ACE v. Sparkyz.
It was retarded to book a huge venue for such an early match.
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Actually, i dont watch a lot of games anymore. I watched ALL games of GSL1, less of GSL2 and 3 because of my schedule, but this week i had the time to watch everything of GSL4. But guess what? I stopped caring after FD vs MVP. Everytime i see a TvZ i minimize the window and just hear the sound while doing something different, everytime i see a other matchup on a map that is not Metal, Xel or Shakuras i do that.
You can't watch the games with fun anymore because of the reasons which were already mentioned. I think there are many Koreans who just think the same way, especially why should they come to a playe only to watch 10 minuts of commercials and 5 minutes of actual games?
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EPT
