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99% of people who watch, dont want to watch 5 minute games. It's simply not exciting. The people who say oh well you do whatever you have too to win. That's true, but this is a spectator sport, people dont want to watch you build 5 marines, and pull your scv's and all-in. That is such a simple stupid tactic 100% of watchers think, well I could do that, what am I watching this crap for. If I wanted to see a cannon rush, or a marine all in, I would just play ladder, so I could watch it live in 1080p on my computer. Pro's need to make a conscious decision and say hey, we need to make this interesting if we want thousands of people to watch, and for big cash prizes to be handed out.
No exciting games = no viewers = no big cash prizes = no more tourneys = no more pro circuit.
There needs to be a negative stigma attached to these players that are just all-in all-in all-in all-in, they ruin the meta game, and they ruin the game in general. Everyone who has ever watched sc1, would say their favorite matches are 30minutes+
edit: this could also be fixed by BETTER FRICKEN MAPS as mentioned by the iccup fans.
anyone who watched gsl1, those fruitdealer games were awesome, changed my whole mindset about sc2. Beautiful play long games, exciting huge 200/200 battles momentum shifts etc etc. That type of excitement just doesn't happen in a 5 minute all-in rush game.
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why would people mention about money money and money again? why would money make a difference? for instance would you drive 1 hour to watch a 1,000,000,000,,000,0,0,0,0,00,00,0 grand prize tournament on Bingo? no?
its a necessary condition rather than a sufficient one.
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Personally I think they just overcomplicated the format. It's hard to get your audience hyped for something really convoluted. Attendance will probably jump up for later rounds between top players, though
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I'm so glad people are finally figuring out what I have been screaming for months, these maps are bullshit.
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On January 07 2011 09:01 ProbeEtPylon wrote:
I don't know the development of SC at all. But as it seems toda there are way less all-ins/cheese etc.
How does it come? Did Blizzard have to patch the game in the "right direction" or were just the players becoming better at defending all-ins/cheese?
first of all, it was broodwar that really rook of in korea. vanilla sc was kinda shit. remember, sc2 will have 2 expansions.
let's just hope these expansion will take sc2 in the right direction.
just calm the fuck down, sc2 is going to be huge 
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I feel like the GSL has been too much too early. The game is still being patched, the maps don't really encourage the type of play most of us want to see and there are so many games. Seasons 2 and 3 I was coming into work early every day to watch the games before my office opened. I subscribed to season 4 and haven't watched a game yet, just don't feel like it is must see right now.
I wish they had made the tournament every other month and doubled up on the prize money. Could have given players more time to improve, strats more time to develop and maybe attracted some more of the BW A teamers a lot of us were hoping for.
Blizzard could help out a lot too if they'd step up with some transparency (or actually make a plan at all) on ladder seasons and map rotations. The game need to be kept fresh like BW was iccup + kespa map style.
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Problem is the quality of games has decreased, if anything. Also since the skill level is far lower and a player's skill is much less apparent in games, it becomes simply boring to watch after a time because every protoss, zerg, and terran player seems to be playing about the same (in skill level) as the previous one. Instead of watching 32 players compete in gsl3, its like I'm watching 3 of them. I've watched less games of gsl3 than any other season, I don't pay a subscription so I can only watch game 1, and almost no game 1 of a series has been recommended this season.
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On January 07 2011 08:59 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 08:55 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:46 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:33 Fa1nT wrote:
SC2 will get more popular as SC1 gets less popular
SC2 will also get more popular when the games and maps are more balanced
SC2 is not even a full year old yet and already has large scale tourneys with hundreds of thousands of online viewers, how far into SC1's lifetime did it take for that to happen? At least a few years. ah i love it :D SC1 had no god damn esports background when it came out. and yet it made it this big? do u think SCII could make this?. SCII has 10+ years of esports background and they are on a level where BW was dunno... like 9 8 7 years ago? now tell me if that is good or bad  and i love what has 2 happen so SCII becomes "good". Need good maps and balance (:D balance wont happen. BW was lucky) and because this wont happen SCII will never be more popular. Wow you know it almost SOUNDS like YOU want it to fail.. You do realize why SC was never popular but BW was right? Balance I'd wait at least till HotS before you start claiming SC2 could never reach BW popularity. IMO Balance is what makes a competitive seen viable and honestly that's what's will make or break SC2. If SCII failing means i still have BW yes i want it 2 fail. like HotS will change something if the maps are still crap. and peopel still can allin into a final. and again SC/SC:BW had what back then? nothing. and it became big. SCII had all this stuff that was built up and still failed big time...
Congratulations on being part of the problem.
As a lot of posts in this thread (and every other BW vs SC2 thread out there) show, you can't expect SC2 to be able to build on all of the SC fanbase, so you can't say it should start where BW was before. On top of that, to grow esports, new interest has to be generated (ie not you people). Fortunately Blizzard actually has a history of being good at this, but both of these take time.
Again though, this whole thread is based on a comment by a guy on a website, so really has no validity outside of mental masturbation. Also the thread was about the GSL specifically, as I wouldn't call things like MLG or Dreamhack failures.
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Well, guess what happens when you slap a 6-digit prize pool on a game less than an year old, while severing all ties with its predecessor. It will disappoint. The amateurish production of Gom doesn't help much, what's up with the random titles/ranks, awful maps and tournament structure?
Seriously I'd find easier for TL to become the anchor of e-sports. TSL is already out with 5-digit prize pool, get Sony Ericsson onboard and we would have a Global Starcraft League worth of such name.
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On January 07 2011 08:58 heishe wrote:
It's really weird, and I hate to say it since the SC2 beta has brought me to teamliquid.net (and I will stay here forever <3) , but SC2 simply is not fun.
14 out of 15 games are the same. All-in vs defensive play. Literally.
When you win against an all-in, it isn't actually fun. You don't have that *fist pump* feeling where you feel like you've actually accomplished something. Your opponent just allin-ed and he failed.
The very next game though your opponent all-ins again, but this time he wins. And it makes you angry, because it's so retarded.
When you win with an all-in, it isn't fun either. Basically all of the all-in strategies don't require a lot of skill. They require a lot of training to be perfected, yes, but not a lot of the things about skill that makes you stand apart from a non-skilled player (understanding of the game, smart adaption, etc.).
Games are decided at short moments in the game. You defend the all-in push or you don't. You lose a lot of workers to those banshees or you don't. Most of these things, over the course of the game, completely decide the game. No way to turn it around with better decision making or anything like that. I've played both BW (not a lot, but I did), and WC3 (a lot), and in neither of those games did it feel like it does now in SC2. In those two games, it was always a long ongoing struggle where little mistakes and small good moves decided the outcome, (and usually) not some kind of 6-minute-mark push.
The maps all suck. Literally, there is no decent map. Even Metalopolis has it's extreme downsides on closed positions, and Shakuras was a lame Protoss-favoured map.
I'm not even talking about imbalances here, since those don't matter at all when a game simply isn't fun.
To sum this all up: It simply isn't fun. Unless you're at the very top and win tournaments, playing Starcraft 2 simply isn't fun. It isn't rewarding. It isn't especially mind-challenging. And that transfers to observing, at least for me.
I strongly feel this is the case too. SC2 doesn't punish a mistake, it fucking destroys you for it. There is no fighting back. If you scout something 20 seconds too late it's over game is done. If you miss the all in for a fraction it's over game is done. If you prepare for an all in but he goes macro it's over game is done.
Everything is just too dam fast. I mean in BW you don't become max off 2 bases 12 minutes into the game. There's build up time, there's fightings across the map. Removing the macro mechanics and making better maps would make this game so much better. There's so much potential, it annoys me so much.
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I just find sc2 units to be pretty boring. I want to use tanks, not mmm all game long with tanks as a shitty sidekick and a bunch of other gimmicky crap.
sc2 killed so many fun bw units, i'd be playing zerg in this game if they didn't cut all the fun units aside from muta and ling... yes banelings are ok, lurkers 10x > that, roaches...
There's just so much stuff that kind of ruins the game, warpgates... sure are cool... until you figure out they obviously make pvp the dullest matchup possible and basically negate distances for half of protoss' early pushes. Macro mechanics strengthening races at different points in time (scv all-ins vs late game larvaspam = translates to early game T late game Z, who would've thought).
And game quality is just so much worse than bw atm, sure some of the longer games are fun but they are few and far between and blizzards focus on balancing for sillymaps kind of makes the future look bleak (yes decent tanks are obviously going to be stupid when you can basically siege them right outside your nat choke and start sniping your opponents gas, you should fix the maps not the units).
This kind of feels like watching a collection of the dryest games from bw dream league (which isn't even televised).
the game is "fine" though i guess and will probably do fine, live numbers are ususally not that hot for anything aside from very late tourney matches or other important stuff.
Just hope they bring back some of the fun with the expos/patches instead of adding neo inciniration zone or something with additionla destructible rocks...
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On January 07 2011 09:04 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I'm so glad people are finally figuring out what I have been screaming for months, these maps are bullshit.
I've said the same thing but simply changing the maps won't magically increase attendance or overall popularity. I think most Koreans have chosen to not support Blizzard and Gom regardless of how good or attractive SC2 is because of the whole CR issue (and other, smaller events) that killed their popularity and overall reputation.
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On January 07 2011 08:59 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 08:55 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:46 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:33 Fa1nT wrote:
SC2 will get more popular as SC1 gets less popular
SC2 will also get more popular when the games and maps are more balanced
SC2 is not even a full year old yet and already has large scale tourneys with hundreds of thousands of online viewers, how far into SC1's lifetime did it take for that to happen? At least a few years. ah i love it :D SC1 had no god damn esports background when it came out. and yet it made it this big? do u think SCII could make this?. SCII has 10+ years of esports background and they are on a level where BW was dunno... like 9 8 7 years ago? now tell me if that is good or bad and i love what has 2 happen so SCII becomes "good". Need good maps and balance (:D balance wont happen. BW was lucky) and because this wont happen SCII will never be more popular. Wow you know it almost SOUNDS like YOU want it to fail.. You do realize why SC was never popular but BW was right? Balance I'd wait at least till HotS before you start claiming SC2 could never reach BW popularity. IMO Balance is what makes a competitive seen viable and honestly that's what's will make or break SC2. If SCII failing means i still have BW yes i want it 2 fail. like HotS will change something if the maps are still crap. and peopel still can allin into a final. and again SC/SC:BW had what back then? nothing. and it became big. SCII had all this stuff that was built up and still failed big time...
SC was nothing till BW; balance was horrendous at best. I don't think you realize HotS can Change EVERYTHING.
Just because a game has money thrown at it and fails doesn't mean that, it later can't succeed. People never watched BW cause of the prize pools, but because of the competitive nature. (that was highly balanced)
Basically if blizzard can just get more players then the spectators will follow; which is why balance is so important.
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I'm sad i love sc2 scene and tournaments  I hope sc2 lives for too long...
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The VOD's of Boxer's group has 65k views on GOM.tv 1 day after it happened - not counting live views (afaik) which must at least be equal (although I would hazard a guess at significantly more), as most Koreans and Europeans can watch it live.
S1 Finals has 450,000 views.
I would guess those watching it live, on standard stream (let alone the 100k+ who payed for premium) raises the numbers up a lot.
Its obvious that the people prefer to watch it broadcast than live, looking at the studio via the stream it seems that live experience isn't all that great - they only have 1 small-ish tv for the seated people.
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GSL has merely to survive until the first expansion pack, if it can last that long, heart of the swarm and later legacy of the void will provide more than enough opportunities to revitalize the game and hopefully also raise the skill ceiling. In the mean time GSL popularity compared to broodwar is not relevant. All that is relevant is if GSL is sustainable.
I am not at this point too concerned, I feel GSL viewership and sustainability is sufficient to survive for quite some time.
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On January 07 2011 09:08 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 08:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:55 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:46 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:33 Fa1nT wrote:
SC2 will get more popular as SC1 gets less popular
SC2 will also get more popular when the games and maps are more balanced
SC2 is not even a full year old yet and already has large scale tourneys with hundreds of thousands of online viewers, how far into SC1's lifetime did it take for that to happen? At least a few years. ah i love it :D SC1 had no god damn esports background when it came out. and yet it made it this big? do u think SCII could make this?. SCII has 10+ years of esports background and they are on a level where BW was dunno... like 9 8 7 years ago? now tell me if that is good or bad and i love what has 2 happen so SCII becomes "good". Need good maps and balance (:D balance wont happen. BW was lucky) and because this wont happen SCII will never be more popular. Wow you know it almost SOUNDS like YOU want it to fail.. You do realize why SC was never popular but BW was right? Balance I'd wait at least till HotS before you start claiming SC2 could never reach BW popularity. IMO Balance is what makes a competitive seen viable and honestly that's what's will make or break SC2. If SCII failing means i still have BW yes i want it 2 fail. like HotS will change something if the maps are still crap. and peopel still can allin into a final. and again SC/SC:BW had what back then? nothing. and it became big. SCII had all this stuff that was built up and still failed big time... SC was nothing till BW; balance was horrendous at best. I don't think you realize HotS can Change EVERYTHING. Just because a game has money thrown at it and fails doesn't mean that, it later can't succeed. People never watched BW cause of the prize pools, but because of the competitive nature. (that was highly balanced) Basically if blizzard can just get more players thee spectators will follow; which is why balance is so important.
but why would players play sc2, an unbalanced game according to you, when bw is already perfectly balanced and enjoyable to watch?
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On January 07 2011 09:04 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I'm so glad people are finally figuring out what I have been screaming for months, these maps are bullshit.
People knew this, this just proves the fact that everyone has been thinking the same really.
I just wish there was a blue post about more on their thoughts rather then this one quote I know of they want to see game diversity(lol?)
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It has nothing to do with a blue post, David Kim said that it's the community's and not Blizzard's responsibility to create maps balanced for tournament play.
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EPT
