|
On January 07 2011 09:14 Crabman123 wrote:
The real problem is the maps and since GSL won't use maps that aren't on the ladder and Blizz wont put good maps on the ladder because they say there too 'complicated'. It creates a circular system that will never be broken until blizz does something about it.
I said it during the beta that my main concern is that SC2 will have the same problem with WC3 when it comes to maps. It seems to me that my worst fear is in the process of becoming true.
That's really interesting, that is definitely circular logic. Blizzard keeps saying we have to make the maps, but if GSL only runs ladder maps then that's exactly where the problem lies...
Edit: Exactly Johnny I feel like I'm getting a better idea of what's going on now, this seems like a big disconnect between Blizzard and GOM.
|
On January 07 2011 09:11 SolidusR wrote:
It has nothing to do with a blue post, David Kim said that it's the community's and not Blizzard's responsibility to create maps balanced for tournament play.
And then tournaments use the ladder maps because people cant always practice with a team. Its a never ending cycle. If blizz truely cared about e-sports they would atleast try or GOM.
GSL is the big tournament that every player old new pr0 or newby looks to, its the core with the support of blizzard, its in their best interest to do something then just leave it up to the community(where its hard/time consuming with no real benifit as they get largely ignored(iccup))
|
On January 07 2011 09:09 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:08 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:59 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:55 DonKey_ wrote:On January 07 2011 08:46 rasers wrote:On January 07 2011 08:33 Fa1nT wrote:
SC2 will get more popular as SC1 gets less popular
SC2 will also get more popular when the games and maps are more balanced
SC2 is not even a full year old yet and already has large scale tourneys with hundreds of thousands of online viewers, how far into SC1's lifetime did it take for that to happen? At least a few years. ah i love it :D SC1 had no god damn esports background when it came out. and yet it made it this big? do u think SCII could make this?. SCII has 10+ years of esports background and they are on a level where BW was dunno... like 9 8 7 years ago? now tell me if that is good or bad  and i love what has 2 happen so SCII becomes "good". Need good maps and balance (:D balance wont happen. BW was lucky) and because this wont happen SCII will never be more popular. Wow you know it almost SOUNDS like YOU want it to fail.. You do realize why SC was never popular but BW was right? Balance I'd wait at least till HotS before you start claiming SC2 could never reach BW popularity. IMO Balance is what makes a competitive seen viable and honestly that's what's will make or break SC2. If SCII failing means i still have BW yes i want it 2 fail. like HotS will change something if the maps are still crap. and peopel still can allin into a final. and again SC/SC:BW had what back then? nothing. and it became big. SCII had all this stuff that was built up and still failed big time... SC was nothing till BW; balance was horrendous at best. I don't think you realize HotS can Change EVERYTHING. Just because a game has money thrown at it and fails doesn't mean that, it later can't succeed. People never watched BW cause of the prize pools, but because of the competitive nature. (that was highly balanced) Basically if blizzard can just get more players thee spectators will follow; which is why balance is so important. but why would players play sc2, an unbalanced game according to you, when bw is already perfectly balanced and enjoyable to watch?
Because it has a better engine; and before you shoot me down, just try and tell me that's not why SC2 has seen much greater success outside of Korea. (prettier for spectators too)
And then most importantly touching on the popularity outside of Korea again, we would finally be able to have a global competitive scene. (which at this point is safe to say will NEVER happen with BW.)
|
If only they just made SC2 proleague and OSL/MSL2 from the start, and Blizzard didn't interrupt at all then this could have been averted so so easily. all the teams would have an SC2 division already and the ENTIRE INFRASTRUCTURE IS ALREADY IN PLACE!!! Like a lot of us were saying at the time, why alienate the people who are running the BW scene fro the sake of money when the free marketing from it simply running is priceless?
Then there's the actual games and immediately you can see the difference. Jangbi storms will never be jangbi storms if literally anybody can do them.
|
Last 3 seasons i watched all the matches but not this time.
After the introduction of Code A and Code S, i only tune in for Code S if i am still in the mood.
I feel that the timing of Code S could have impacted the viewership.
|
On January 07 2011 09:16 SolidusR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:14 Crabman123 wrote:
The real problem is the maps and since GSL won't use maps that aren't on the ladder and Blizz wont put good maps on the ladder because they say there too 'complicated'. It creates a circular system that will never be broken until blizz does something about it.
I said it during the beta that my main concern is that SC2 will have the same problem with WC3 when it comes to maps. It seems to me that my worst fear is in the process of becoming true. That's really interesting, that is definitely circular logic. Blizzard keeps saying we have to make the maps, but if GSL only runs ladder maps then that's exactly where the problem lies...
The worst part is that Blizzard already said that they don't give a fuck. They said that the community would figure it out, lol. Such a big joke...
The ladder should have some popularity based stuff, much like the custom map system.
|
On January 07 2011 09:11 SolidusR wrote:
It has nothing to do with a blue post, David Kim said that it's the community's and not Blizzard's responsibility to create maps balanced for tournament play.
it's just a really flawed thought until they acutally ease access to playing the maps or add something good to ladder.
Allowing private ladders - set up on bnet?, would allow decent maps/ have a rotation... gsl makes their ladder with their maps, ppl practice there
c h a t c h a n n e l s - but like in beta not half a year after release (+ they're apparently really shitty ones, not that i'd know with my eu acc)
or at least a
decent custom game system - which they don't have by a long shot, you can't search/filter for d*ck only way is to make a game and hope someone wades through 10 pages of tower defence and gold remakes of all the maps to find your game.
|
On January 07 2011 09:14 0neder wrote:
1 - bigger maps are more forgiving on mistakes
2 - reduce starting worker count back to 4?
Point 1 is valid but on Point 2 I strongly feel the problem is how fast you build an economy in SC2. You have Spawn larvae/Mule/Chrono all skipping the majority of the build up you had in BW that slowed it down and allowed for an early game.
Starting workers and saturation/minerals per main might help but I think tweaking macro mechanics is the only real way to slow things down. Obviously other things would have to change but if things stay as they are it's going to be tough.
Also a quick note. Big maps might result in more BO loses because of warpgate mechanic. In theory you have to blindly prepare for both a FE and a early warpgate attack. I'm not sure if it's fine in practice though.
|
I think attendance actually went down because of the new format and rules. It's just complicated. I understand it, but a lot of my friends are like "uh, what ?!".
That alone drew away a lot of people who enjoyed Seasons 1, 2 and 3. Another thing is that some of these progamers keep changing their nicknames and all of a sudden, you don't know who's playing who and what the fuck are they doing in Code S if this is the first time you see their nickname in the GSL.Tester, sSKS, Trickster ... What's gonna be next year ?
Maps - yeah, I kinda agree. We need ICCup maps if GomTV ain't making their own map designers squadron (of death ... and destruction ... and horror ... ops, went too far there.). And I don't mean the old BW maps remade for SC2, but the new ones, created by them, with all the "shitty" destructible rocks, golden expos and Xel'Naga towers.
My other guess is that with the stream being improved, and with the lowered fee, a lot of koreans just can't be bothered to go to an event in the winter, when they can just sit home, with some hot chocolate and watch some AWESOME games.
The quality of the games have really risen, so I'm optimistic to be honest. Yeah, I look forward to many more GSLs.
|
too much greediness. Requiring fees for BW broadcasting made the eSports TV channels abandon any SC2 broadcasting plans in advance. Online TV is not mainstream yet, so this is not a replacement.
GomTV streams should be for free, they can make money out of it once it is really popular. They cripple growth by beeing too greedy.
Making the eSports TV channels and KESPA an enemy by "intelectual property fees" was really dumb, and lots of people predicted this will hurt SC2 popularity massively.
Fail strat by blizzard+gom: going early mass-fee and +1 lawyers is countered by korean mass ignorance 
|
On January 07 2011 09:18 debasers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:16 SolidusR wrote:On January 07 2011 09:14 Crabman123 wrote:
The real problem is the maps and since GSL won't use maps that aren't on the ladder and Blizz wont put good maps on the ladder because they say there too 'complicated'. It creates a circular system that will never be broken until blizz does something about it.
I said it during the beta that my main concern is that SC2 will have the same problem with WC3 when it comes to maps. It seems to me that my worst fear is in the process of becoming true. That's really interesting, that is definitely circular logic. Blizzard keeps saying we have to make the maps, but if GSL only runs ladder maps then that's exactly where the problem lies... The worst part is that Blizzard already said that they don't give a fuck. They said that the community would figure it out, lol. Such a big joke... The ladder should have some popularity based stuff, much like the custom map system.
This is what is said. They need to realize THEY have to foster their game to make the community do the same. Not many games can be left alone to the community and thrive (only singleplayer games can do this well, like Morrowind and its mods).
|
On January 07 2011 09:15 ShadowWolf wrote: In BW, defending a cheese you could safely econ because there was just no way they could get a 2nd round of units to your doorstep fast enough to punish you.
The game mechanics themselves lend to all-ins. Wargates - distance irrelevant, mules - can pull SCVs and still sustain constant marine production.
|
On January 07 2011 09:16 Deadlyhazard wrote:
You guys really think an expansion will save the tournament scene for SC2?
Blizzard has had a decade of knowledge and experience of the kinks and knots of e-sports and StarCraft balance, yet SC2 is horrible and they didn't even try to follow the simple guidelines of what made SC1's scene great, including the long macro maps.
maps in bw were not made by blizzard. and it took time for community to come up with new maps. eventually custom melee maps will take over. look, today we got justin.tv invitational, 400$ tournament with a lot of top players, and finals first map is iCCup Valhalla. yet you seem to think sc2 has already fallen.
just give this game more time, guys.
|
I find Starcraft 2 very fun to play. Yes, the game DESTROYS you for having the focus in wrong place for 1 second.
If there is one thing that can improve the gameplay it's better scouting options. Better scouting means less "randomness" from player point of view, means better games.
I find SC2 fun, but then again I never played SC:BW. If anything, I feel I'm not skilled ENOUGH to control everything I need to do. Spam the buttons on the keyboard and see what APM you get. This is the potential APM for you when you have learned to do everything without a thought. Game is fun, because I have still so much to learn.
I gladly pay for GSL tickets.
+ Show Spoiler +I claim people just lack the skill to play this game to it's fullest potential, if things being decided in less than a seconds time is too much then perhaps the game should be made easier.
|
On January 07 2011 09:11 SolidusR wrote:
It has nothing to do with a blue post, David Kim said that it's the community's and not Blizzard's responsibility to create maps balanced for tournament play.
its so fucking responsible for david kim to say this while adding numerous restrictions on the community to promote their game for free. and they dun even bother to cooperate.
|
Should we close up on why pros are cheesing ? Because pros are fragile to cheese, and if they are so fragile to cheese... then it goes down to the game design, especially these horrible maps.
|
On January 07 2011 09:17 infinity2k9 wrote:
If only they just made SC2 proleague and OSL/MSL2 from the start, and Blizzard didn't interrupt at all then this could have been averted so so easily. all the teams would have an SC2 division already and the ENTIRE INFRASTRUCTURE IS ALREADY IN PLACE!!! Like a lot of us were saying at the time, why alienate the people who are running the BW scene fro the sake of money when the free marketing from it simply running is priceless?
Then there's the actual games and immediately you can see the difference. Jangbi storms will never be jangbi storms if literally anybody can do them.
Except this wasn't going to happen at all. KeSPA was just going to completely ignore SC2 and we'd have 0 leagues for SC2.
|
On January 07 2011 09:19 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:too much greediness. Requiring fees for BW broadcasting made the eSports TV channels abandon any SC2 broadcasting plans in advance. Online TV is not mainstream yet, so this is not a replacement. GomTV streams should be for free, they can make money out of it once it is really popular. They cripple growth by beeing too greedy. Making the eSports TV channels and KESPA an enemy by "intelectual property fees" was really dumb, and lots of people predicted this will hurt SC2 popularity massively. Fail strat by blizzard+gom: going early mass-fee and +1 lawyers is countered by korean mass ignorance
it is free. I watch the GSL for free every season.
|
On January 07 2011 09:18 debasers wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:16 SolidusR wrote:On January 07 2011 09:14 Crabman123 wrote:
The real problem is the maps and since GSL won't use maps that aren't on the ladder and Blizz wont put good maps on the ladder because they say there too 'complicated'. It creates a circular system that will never be broken until blizz does something about it.
I said it during the beta that my main concern is that SC2 will have the same problem with WC3 when it comes to maps. It seems to me that my worst fear is in the process of becoming true. That's really interesting, that is definitely circular logic. Blizzard keeps saying we have to make the maps, but if GSL only runs ladder maps then that's exactly where the problem lies... The worst part is that Blizzard already said that they don't give a fuck. They said that the community would figure it out, lol. Such a big joke... The ladder should have some popularity based stuff, much like the custom map system.
That system is quite flawed. GOM needs to man up and take the initiative. It wasn't Blizzard who supplied maps for all of BW's existence, and we have already seen what a great job they did in WC3 (lol). Somewhere along the line GOM needs to say enough is enough and create its own structure to produce balanced, but fun maps. Waiting for Blizzard to change anything is a mistake.
|
On January 07 2011 09:15 ShadowWolf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:01 ProbeEtPylon wrote:
I don't know the development of SC at all. But as it seems toda there are way less all-ins/cheese etc.
How does it come? Did Blizzard have to patch the game in the "right direction" or were just the players becoming better at defending all-ins/cheese? In my opinion, the only difference is maps. The maps in the BW tournaments lend themselves toward both the inability to recover from cheese most of the time as well as more macro-oriented play. Look at games on something like Shakuras and count the number of failed all-ins/cheese on that map versus, say, Blistering Sands, Delta Quadrant, or close position Metal. In BW, defending a cheese you could safely econ because there was just no way they could get a 2nd round of units to your doorstep fast enough to punish you. On, for example, Steppes of War that's absolutely not the case. Look at CatZ's 7 pool build on Steppes - that should absolutely result in a loss if you don't do an insane amount of damage, but it most definitely doesn't. If your opponent tries to boom after you attack doing even a slight amount of damage, you can follow up with enough roaches fast enough to break him. That's why you see all-in all-day. On the flip side, try the same 7-pool strategy on Shakuras or Iccup.MatchPoint - just like most maps in BW. The major problem is that Blizzard wants GOMtv et. al. to come up with map pools oriented toward tournament play. While their stance on this is legitimately interesting, the way Blizzcon and the ladder is formatted kind of make this really challenging to pull off. Basically, Pros would have to practice on two separate map pools: Blizzards and Gomtvs. BW isn't designed like that at all. It's a problem that's not nearly as easy to solve as a lot of people seem to think it is, but it definitely needs to be solved sooner rather than later because it's a major issue with Starcraft 2 being a legit e-sport. As someone who played on iccup, I don't really see any major difference in the amount of cheese or all-ins between the ladders. Granted, I never played BW anywhere nearly as regularly as SC2, so it could be sample bias, but based on discussions with other people who were in the D/C range, it seems like a reasonably consistent viewpoint. The difference was mainly that all-ins required more thought and strategy to execute because there was basically rarely a legitimate exit strategy if you didn't win right then and there.
Very interesting. If good (bigger) maps matter so much, why the hell Blizzard does not change the map pool? As I know, even in the ladder the bigger maps are more popular...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
