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Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-07 00:00:04
January 06 2011 23:57 GMT
#101
--- Nuked ---
heishe
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany2284 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-06 23:59:38
January 06 2011 23:58 GMT
#102
It's really weird, and I hate to say it since the SC2 beta has brought me to teamliquid.net (and I will stay here forever <3) , but SC2 simply is not fun.

14 out of 15 games are the same. All-in vs defensive play. Literally.

When you win against an all-in, it isn't actually fun. You don't have that *fist pump* feeling where you feel like you've actually accomplished something. Your opponent just allin-ed and he failed.

The very next game though your opponent all-ins again, but this time he wins. And it makes you angry, because it's so retarded.

When you win with an all-in, it isn't fun either. Basically all of the all-in strategies don't require a lot of skill. They require a lot of training to be perfected, yes, but not a lot of the things about skill that makes you stand apart from a non-skilled player (understanding of the game, smart adaption, etc.).

Games are decided at short moments in the game. You defend the all-in push or you don't. You lose a lot of workers to those banshees or you don't. Most of these things, over the course of the game, completely decide the game. No way to turn it around with better decision making or anything like that. I've played both BW (not a lot, but I did), and WC3 (a lot), and in neither of those games did it feel like it does now in SC2. In those two games, it was always a long ongoing struggle where little mistakes and small good moves decided the outcome, (and usually) not some kind of 6-minute-mark push.

The maps all suck. Literally, there is no decent map. Even Metalopolis has it's extreme downsides on closed positions, and Shakuras was a lame Protoss-favoured map.

I'm not even talking about imbalances here, since those don't matter at all when a game simply isn't fun.

To sum this all up: It simply isn't fun. Unless you're at the very top and win tournaments, playing Starcraft 2 simply isn't fun. It isn't rewarding. It isn't especially mind-challenging. And that transfers to observing, at least for me.
If you value your soul, never look into the eye of a horse. Your soul will forever be lost in the void of the horse.
Ludwigvan
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany2371 Posts
January 06 2011 23:58 GMT
#103
One reason could be that the viewers are just nerds who sit in front of the computer all day. Why should they go somewhere else to see things they can see from home? Who do they expect to show up every day to see first round matches? This is a big time investement for the viewer. Gom obviously miscalculated here. Maybe because of the viewercount of sc2streams. But those viewers watch from all over the world and not only from Seoul. The future will show, if the everyday GSL is going to stay that big, or if short tournaments like MLG will have the edge. For a weekend you can mobilize a lot more studio viewers.
Btw, watching GSL and other SC2 stuff eats a lot of my time too. Maybe i should watch Bundesliga like many others here and only spent the weekend watching.
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-06 23:58:58
January 06 2011 23:58 GMT
#104
Honestly, I think many of the games haven't been very exciting. A LOT of all ins, resulting in dull play and loss of interest. That and there schedule leaves something to be desired. So much advertising and so few matches. Maybe they should try having more matches per day, less days per week, and shorter breaks between matches. Also, using some new maps would be very interesting. The whole ranking system they are using is very confusing to me. Having a normal bracket style tournament would be more interesting.
BTW, just got done playing a BO7 in sc2 on fighting spirit and it was sooo much fun. So many strategies can work on a map like that. No 2 games were even similar. Huge armies trying to out position each other, motherships, reaper harass, banshee ownage, and both of us walking a thin line of production and taking expos that are defendable. Much more exciting and fun to play than most games of sc2 I've played. Just my opinion.
:)
Xadar
Profile Joined October 2010
497 Posts
January 06 2011 23:58 GMT
#105
Just forbid the marine/scv allins on gsl.
rasers
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden691 Posts
January 06 2011 23:59 GMT
#106
On January 07 2011 08:55 DonKey_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 08:46 rasers wrote:
On January 07 2011 08:33 Fa1nT wrote:
SC2 will get more popular as SC1 gets less popular

SC2 will also get more popular when the games and maps are more balanced

SC2 is not even a full year old yet and already has large scale tourneys with hundreds of thousands of online viewers, how far into SC1's lifetime did it take for that to happen? At least a few years.

ah i love it :D
SC1 had no god damn esports background when it came out. and yet it made it this big? do u think SCII could make this?.
SCII has 10+ years of esports background and they are on a level where BW was dunno... like 9 8 7 years ago? now tell me if that is good or bad

and i love what has 2 happen so SCII becomes "good". Need good maps and balance (:D balance wont happen. BW was lucky) and because this wont happen SCII will never be more popular.


Wow you know it almost SOUNDS like YOU want it to fail..

You do realize why SC was never popular but BW was right? Balance

I'd wait at least till HotS before you start claiming SC2 could never reach BW popularity.

IMO Balance is what makes a competitive seen viable and honestly that's what's will make or break SC2.

If SCII failing means i still have BW yes i want it 2 fail.

like HotS will change something if the maps are still crap. and peopel still can allin into a final.
and again SC/SC:BW had what back then? nothing. and it became big.
SCII had all this stuff that was built up and still failed big time...
shinogi
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom45 Posts
January 06 2011 23:59 GMT
#107
think its doing fine, the game is new.

small audiences are probably due to times of the shows and the fact that they have a dedicated high quality stream which works for most people. couple that with south Korea having stupidly amazing internet connections in their cities probably results in people just staying in and watching the stream, that way you can chat to your friends online who are also watching it and do something else in the down time between games/boring matches.
TributeBoxer
Profile Joined November 2010
United States163 Posts
January 06 2011 23:59 GMT
#108
On January 07 2011 08:53 Sandermatt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 08:50 TributeBoxer wrote:
How about putting all matches during the day. Koreans can watch at work and Americans can watch in Prime Time.


Than the time is just very bad for the europeans. As the number of starcraft players in the european region and the north american region are similar there wouldn't be an improvement. And the popularity in korea would go down, because it wouldn't be on prime time anymore.


I watched world cup during the day on the internet. Maybe they should move it to those hours.
"Violence and corruption, seldom strangers to the human scene, appear to be increasing today."
LittLeD
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden7973 Posts
January 06 2011 23:59 GMT
#109
Not promising at all...
quite worrying actually
☆Grubby ☆| Tod|DeMusliM|ThorZaiN|SaSe|Moon|Mana| ☆HerO ☆
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
January 07 2011 00:00 GMT
#110
1- Better maps - Blizzard, I blame you for slacking on this. This will fail as an e-sport if you give it the WC3 treatment. 10 minute games with Marauder all-ins are getting old after a few months.

2 - more free stuff at the studio
Mereel
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany895 Posts
January 07 2011 00:00 GMT
#111
seeing it from my standpoint...i have less interest for gsl too because
1. i dont understand the system and i dont want to understand it
2. the maps are bullshit
3. im not interested in the players besides the foreigners
TPW Mapmaking Team
XsebT
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Denmark2980 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-07 00:01:58
January 07 2011 00:01 GMT
#112
On January 07 2011 08:56 Milkis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 08:13 jalstar wrote:
GSL ceasing to exist would not be the end of SC2 in Korea, just the end of Blizzard/Gretech's monopoly. OGN had plans for an OS2L before Blizzard stepped in.


OGN had no such plans. It's just an Artosis/Chinese rumor

Yeah it was Hwanni who said that shit with nothing to back it up... I really feel stupid, as I remember getting all excited through Artosis' videos back then.
Edit, that was when I was still optimistic about sc2 btw.
화이팅
Deadlyhazard
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1177 Posts
January 07 2011 00:01 GMT
#113
On January 07 2011 08:53 Ighox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 08:43 Deadlyhazard wrote:

But I haven't liked a Blizzard product since TBC in WoW, and even then I felt the original game had more magic. Bah.

It's kinda always like that though with every game, sequels never live up to the "magic" of the originals.
Even stuff like Super Mario back on SNES, just because of the good old memories I'll always think no super mario game lived up to the magic of the game back then even though many of the sequels has probably been a lot better and anyone today who tried out the old one would call it a piece of shit after 5 minutes.

Not always true, I think WC3 was better than WC2 by a huge margin and I grew up playing WC2 all day. I even think WC3 is better than SC except for in melee...I think melee SC:BW kicks every other competitive RTS in the ass.
Hark!
adeezy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1428 Posts
January 07 2011 00:01 GMT
#114
If you aren't worried about starcraft 2s popularity, you should be. It's hard to pinpoint what exactly is causing this... but there definitely needs to be something done otherwise Starcraft 2 as an eSport might die. Also, regardless of wehther you liked it or not, you should be concerned because a lot of people's professional lives are banking on it.
I asked my friend how the ratio at a party was, he replied. "Let's just say for every guy there was two dudes."
ProbeEtPylon
Profile Joined October 2010
168 Posts
January 07 2011 00:01 GMT
#115
I don't know the development of SC at all. But as it seems toda there are way less all-ins/cheese etc.
How does it come? Did Blizzard have to patch the game in the "right direction" or were just the players becoming better at defending all-ins/cheese?
beer
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
January 07 2011 00:01 GMT
#116
they (GOM) will learn from their mistakes. as long as blizzard is willing to prop them up with $$$, they'll get better over time.
manner
Milkis
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-07 00:02:17
January 07 2011 00:01 GMT
#117
On January 07 2011 09:01 XsebT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 08:56 Milkis wrote:
On January 07 2011 08:13 jalstar wrote:
GSL ceasing to exist would not be the end of SC2 in Korea, just the end of Blizzard/Gretech's monopoly. OGN had plans for an OS2L before Blizzard stepped in.


OGN had no such plans. It's just an Artosis/Chinese rumor

Yeah it was Hwanni who said that shit with nothing to back it up... I really feel stupid, as I remember getting all excited through Artosis' videos back then.


Hwanni just implied at the possibility, and Artosis just snatched that up and went like "YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST! SC2 OSL"


On January 07 2011 09:01 d_so wrote:
they (GOM) will learn from their mistakes. as long as blizzard is willing to prop them up with $$$, they'll get better over time.


Gom didn't really improve with the BW leagues either, so...
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
January 07 2011 00:02 GMT
#118
On January 07 2011 08:45 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 08:32 tree.hugger wrote:
ESPORTS as a whole works fine, even in the West. MLG seems to really have something going, Dreamhack has something going, ect. But if we want Sc2 to work along the Korean model of ESPORTS, which parallels somewhat the model of major sports in the US and Europe, then I can't see any way that can be achieved without Korea itself being a participant.


There was a time that it was thought that MMA could never capture a western audience and without 100% support from Japan that MMA would fail. Now MMA in Japan is failing and flying in the rest of the world. Same scenario.

The ground that SCII has gained in the west is unreal. I went over to a friends house the other day and this girl that lives there was talking about SCII and how cool it is, and wanted to know if I knew people played it for a living (I was playing ignorant before that). This girl has never even heard of Esports until SCII.

I got to be honest, every single sign I see points towards SCII becoming a Western ESport.

This.

I'm not really scared for SC2 in Korea, since KeSPA has made clear that they will completely ostracize any player that switches over, so the current SC2 scene is trying its hardest to get off the ground with this in mind. If SC2 fizzles and dies off soon, that leaves people like BoxeR, NaDa, JulyZerg, and others without a game to play. Fortunately, I don't see anything horrible like that to happen, especially considering that there still is plenty of time for the level of play to improve and for the balance and maps to change.

IMO, what happens in Korea stays in Korea. As awesome as the Korean scene has the potential to be, its success will mean nothing if the Western scene misses the opportunity to explode into something that rivals or even surpasses the Korean BW scene.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Tanstaafl
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom123 Posts
January 07 2011 00:03 GMT
#119
There are just too many games. It's "regular season" syndrome, and it happens in the big leagues too. There's no sense that a lot of these televised games "count" because they're so frequent, and there's nothing consequential about them in the long run. I'm sure the plummet in live audiences is reflected in the stream/VOD numbers, too. I used to watch every single game of the GSL live, but now it's become impractical to keep up. (Think about it: that's several hours of StarCraft a day - just spectating, not even playing.)

I guarantee you that the interest in the between-GSL events, like the team leagues, will be even less.

They need to take the current format and stretch it out over three months or so. Unfortunately, it looks like GOM has its schedule already laid out for the year.

The constant early-game rushing in GSL 3 certainly didn't help. Even in the 2010 prelims, it was hard to get the sense that the Ro64 was worth watching, because it took forever and the chance of a series like Clide/Leenock coming up was slim. Once Code S has stabilized in terms of who's in and who's out, it might get better, but not if revenues plummet or sponsorship gets pulled first.

I know we're all into specifics on TL like the map pool and the balancing of particular units, but when it comes to spectator numbers I'm pretty sure it's a managerial problem first and a game design problem second.
Johnranger-123
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United Kingdom341 Posts
January 07 2011 00:03 GMT
#120
SC2 is boring to watch when obviously good players lose to obviously bad players just because of the maps, more unit diversity is way more interesting to watch and you only get that past 2 bases really.
The sooner blizz realises this the better, they wanna see lots of diverse games but yet they still have retarded maps :/ like what has been said time and time and time and time and time....
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