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On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
It's like you guys are trying to deny the rise of Rock n' Roll. Yes, there are flaws in GOM's approach and in Blizz's approach, but the slow, laborious nature of Blizzard's implementation just means that everyone needs to be patient. I could really care less about the Korean scene and if Broodwar becomes the standard there, because the Western world absolutely has no signs of turning back to BW. Broodwar has lost the potential for new fans, it just simply looks and acts too archaic. Starcraft II is the future... so for all of you singing doomsday a) Don't be negative and stereotypical pompous nerds..no one enjoys that and b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls. So instead of whining about bad maps, support map makers. Instead of screaming about all-ins, learn to combat them so effectively that they die out in popularity. Purist, fundamentalists resistent to change have never thrived in any time during history, I doubt they will now.
There are so many wrong things about this post, I'm not sure you understand that TL was born for the love of BW and nobody who came here for BW wants it to die. And frankly if BW died, there'd be serious consequences for eSports. SC2? Not so much.
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i do enjoy the gsl quite alot more than other tourneys but i still have to say that watching broodwar, although i never really played it, is so much more fun to watch..
but its not like bw started like this...give it some time and it will develop 
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On January 07 2011 09:09 resilve wrote:
The VOD's of Boxer's group has 65k views on GOM.tv 1 day after it happened - not counting live views (afaik) which must at least be equal (although I would hazard a guess at significantly more), as most Koreans and Europeans can watch it live.
S1 Finals has 450,000 views.
The numbers still aren't all that impressive, realistically. I mean, I can go to youtube and search "kittens" and find a dozen videos on the first page with several million views.
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I must confess that I never watched a BW game before (get hooked on a couple of HDStarcraft videos)... Can somebody post me the link of a really great BW game? (in English, please; I want to compare both games myself)
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On January 07 2011 09:39 bmml wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:33 Kazeyonoma wrote:
You know, while I agree larger map in the ladder pools and tournament play similar to those in BW would allow both more dynamic all in risks as well as larger macro based games, and wish to see them creep up to try to fix some of the problems we're seeing, another poster kind of mentioned it and I think it needs to be hammered home.
Larger maps, while extending the game for say, terrans, or zerg early game, do absolutely nothing to hinder protoss from being able to all in as soon as warpgate tech is done. I'd like to see how the meta game shifts if we were in fact given large maps, and given millions of gamers to play them out and hash out strategies, but i can't see a way around fixing warpgates. 1 pylon somewhere and the entirety of a protoss army can bypass a large map that is supposed to "promote macro play". Zerg likewise can do the same once they get nydus because now nydus doesn't require creep the way it did in BW. The ability to place units basically anywhere, at anytime with little to no drawback will just shift the meta game to abusing warpgate and worm games, while terran will be forced to play an endless fuckfest game of covering every possible entrance into their base while expanding unsafely, and relying on dropship play which is inferior in almost everyway to warpgate or nydus.
Lose a pylon? build another one, no units lost, pylon down? instant units at location, and in heavy macro games, you better believe insane 8-12 warpgate pushes are going to exist, meanwhile terran need to have 12-15 raxes to keep up with that kind of unit production, that requires build time not instant warp in, and HAS to come out of their main/natural instead of at the enemy base or at their newest expo where the only place they're getting minerals out of is coming from.
Likewise lose a a nydus worm? oh wells, all of the units in the tunnel are still there, just try to set up another one elsewhere, or wait till they push out and send an overlord over and crush their out of place army, while you can both be on offense, AND retreat back to defense in event of counter attack.
I just don't see how this can be resolved, while I'd like to see more macro based games due to larger maps that we're all hoping for, the core mechanics of the 3 different races, leave races at huge disadvantages once certain tech paths are reached that can't be made up for with just different BOs or skill. Many of these issues were solved in BW (though it was only nydus and arbiters) by the fact that tanks weren't kinda shitty, terrans could dominate sides of the map with a strong tank line, and toss / zerg needed the higher tech units to counter such beastly tank lines. That said I didn't watch early BW so have no idea how this started out.
Unfortunately tanks do little against protoss now, it seems every unit in their arsenal is designed specifically to take tanks out of the game, from blink to charge, to dts, voidrays and phoenixes. I wonder if we'll have to go through a period of the game like scbw did, where protoss simply dominated the game with some zerg here or there, and then someone like BoxeR comes along and shows everyone that you can win with weird builds and amazing micro. I dunno, as a terran fan that'd make me sad, but hey, 3 gsl season and 2 zerg 1 toss winner so far right?
It'd be interesting to see though, it just seems that while toss was dominating terran early because they had advantages, none of it was as blatant as warpgates are right now.
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On January 07 2011 09:43 ProbeEtPylon wrote:
really great BW game? (in English)
Good luck with that!
http://www.youtube.com/user/klazartsc?blend=1&ob=4
Try some of them, not all will be amazing but a lot of them are good. Nal_ra vs Boxer (the most viewed) is bound to be worth a watch, nevermind its not that amazing as a first BW game as it happens in like EVERY sc2 game lol.
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On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
It's like you guys are trying to deny the rise of Rock n' Roll. Yes, there are flaws in GOM's approach and in Blizz's approach, but the slow, laborious nature of Blizzard's implementation just means that everyone needs to be patient. I could really care less about the Korean scene and if Broodwar becomes the standard there, because the Western world absolutely has no signs of turning back to BW. Broodwar has lost the potential for new fans, it just simply looks and acts too archaic. Starcraft II is the future... so for all of you singing doomsday a) Don't be negative and stereotypical pompous nerds..no one enjoys that and b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls. So instead of whining about bad maps, support map makers. Instead of screaming about all-ins, learn to combat them so effectively that they die out in popularity. Purist, fundamentalists resistent to change have never thrived in any time during history, I doubt they will now.
is chess archaic? How do you know that the current interest in SC2 is longstanding, and it's not just the novelty effect coupled with pent up anticipation and the allure of impossibly high prize winnings? BW, on the other hand, can make the argument that it has transcended normal videogaming and has reached the status where it's not hampered by graphical limitations but instead is accepted for what it is.
I guess this is what I'm trying to say: Starcraft2 is the future for RTS videogaming, sure. But it's starting to become arguable that professional BW is not a videogame anymore, but a flat out Sport. So no doubt SC2 will prosper during the normal lifecycle of a video game. But slowly, surely, I'm envisioning professional BW not only existing for the next year, but the next decade, with the same assurance I have that the NBA or NFL will exist in 2020.
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Another big lacking think in sc2 is that omg factor. Like when a reaver gets dropped in BW and every scarab fired creates a ton of tension. Will it dud, will it kill 20 scvs? No one knows. Or when a big battle occurs between a mech army vs a protoss army. Will the spider mines, and tanks rape the push, or will the protoss break the push. Usually, you can't tell prior to the engagement. How many times in sc2 have we seen the commentators say "He can't hold this" as the enemies army leaves his base and they are spot on. Or games that are simply decided by the build order and not much else. Also, things like the zealot nerf which was done because the poor silver players couldn't stop a zlot rush. BTW how many of them do you think will ever watch a GSL. Can't tell you how many times I've giving a lower player advice and said something like "yea, just like day9 says" only to hear them say "who is day9?" Or "you should watch the gsl today there will be games of the matchup your struggling in" and they say "what is the gsl?" Many have never even heard of Team liquid. But they are making balance patches for these people?
Blizzard wanted to run SC2 esports, have complete control over the ladder, and direct the game towards a larger audience. It's all on them. They say that it's up to the community to make tourney maps. Guess what, the community has produced tons of maps that are better than the Blizzard maps. But they will never see play in tourneys if Blizzard refuses to put them into ladder.
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That we are seing cheese and all ins is not the problem it self. THe problem is the direction of the amount of cheese. While GSL 1 and 2 were having cheese at a moderate level, GSL season 3 was just awful. THe argument that one just need to learn to defend all ins does not seem to apply, at least not in the medium-long run. In the long run (say 2+years) all top players might know exactly how to defend each possible cheese, and have the skill to defend it as well, which means that games will turn into macro games. However it seems unlikely that the meta game will change within the next month, and it is not enough for SC2 to be entertaining to view in 2+ years. It needs to be it asap, or it will just fade away. Sure sc1 was not balanced when it was released, but times were different back then, and the comptetion is stronger now. If blizzard wanted the esports scene to be more succesful they would have:
1) Implemented chat channels since release ( I believe many players feel lonely, and have stopped playing sc2 and hence followed the scene).
2) Created better condition for macro games (LIke bigger macro maps).
I understand that they want small maps for some players, but perhaps they should make larger maps for the master league divisions or higher. However I would expect terran to be underpowered given the current balance on larger maps, so they would need to change some unit stats to make map sizes a less important factor on the balance. THis should have been done in the beta or blizzard should have experimented with this on the test server. As they have not been doing this it seems to be me, that they are not very motivated to create good conditions for the esport scene.
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If I was a Korean I would not bother coming to studio for Bo1 all-in 5 min games.
Sc2 at the moment is a crap spectator game and these maps and tournament system is not helping anyone!!
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On January 07 2011 09:45 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
It's like you guys are trying to deny the rise of Rock n' Roll. Yes, there are flaws in GOM's approach and in Blizz's approach, but the slow, laborious nature of Blizzard's implementation just means that everyone needs to be patient. I could really care less about the Korean scene and if Broodwar becomes the standard there, because the Western world absolutely has no signs of turning back to BW. Broodwar has lost the potential for new fans, it just simply looks and acts too archaic. Starcraft II is the future... so for all of you singing doomsday a) Don't be negative and stereotypical pompous nerds..no one enjoys that and b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls. So instead of whining about bad maps, support map makers. Instead of screaming about all-ins, learn to combat them so effectively that they die out in popularity. Purist, fundamentalists resistent to change have never thrived in any time during history, I doubt they will now. is chess archaic? How do you know that the current interest in SC2 is longstanding, and it's not just the novelty effect coupled with pent up anticipation and the allure of impossibly high prize winnings? BW, on the other hand, can make the argument that it has transcended normal videogaming and has reached the status where it's not hampered by graphical limitations but instead is accepted for what it is. I guess this is what I'm trying to say: Starcraft2 is the future for RTS videogaming, sure. But it's starting to become arguable that professional BW is not a videogame anymore, but a flat out Sport. So no doubt SC2 will prosper during the normal lifecycle of a video game. But slowly, surely, I'm envisioning professional BW not only existing for the next year, but the next decade, with the same assurance I have that the NBA or NFL will exist in 2020.
beautifully put.
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People go to the studio for the OSL ro16 group stages which use the same format, so that point is kinda moot.
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The NBA, chess, the NFL etc. all have new generations of fans every year. They are pastimes that are not relient on any form of technology (say what you will about new fangled Nike shoes). Because of Broodwar's technological requirements, the lack of evolution in areas outside of the near perfect balance that makes the game amazing will never progress and help reach out to new fanbases. People are caddy, they are attracted to the newer, nicer looking things. In the West, at the very least, people need to learn to support SCII. Instead of declaring things as black and white, good and bad, sack up instead and work to shape this new, well funded, huge-american-conglomerate backed game into the sport that we all want it to be.
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Trying to cater to casuals and pros SIMULTANEOUSLY is just an impossible task. You end of not satisfying anyone. It was a nice attempt, Blizzard, I commend you for trying. If you do still manage to pull this off in the next few years I dare say it would be epicly groundbreaking.
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honestly, i think most foreigner tournaments have been way more exciting so far than GSL
Dreamhack finals were pretty good and MLG has overall been pretty good. I don't think we need to depend on Korea for SC2 and if it fails in korea, theres no reason it still cant flourish elsewhere.
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On January 07 2011 09:52 YerknYass wrote:
The NBA, chess, the NFL etc. all have new generations of fans every year. They are pastimes that are not relient on any form of technology (say what you will about new fangled Nike shoes). Because of Broodwar's technological requirements, the lack of evolution in areas outside of the near perfect balance that makes the game amazing will never progress and help reach out to new fanbases. People are caddy, they are attracted to the newer, nicer looking things. In the West, at the very least, people need to learn to support SCII. Instead of declaring things as black and white, good and bad, sack up instead and work to shape this new, well funded, huge-american-conglomerate backed game into the sport that we all want it to be.
But what happens when scii graphics become outdated? we just give up on that esport as well? imo, inorder for esports to last like bw did, it needs to transgress the traditional 2 year lifespan of a game and go beyond graphics and interface.
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On January 07 2011 09:51 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 09:45 d_so wrote:On January 07 2011 09:31 YerknYass wrote:
It's like you guys are trying to deny the rise of Rock n' Roll. Yes, there are flaws in GOM's approach and in Blizz's approach, but the slow, laborious nature of Blizzard's implementation just means that everyone needs to be patient. I could really care less about the Korean scene and if Broodwar becomes the standard there, because the Western world absolutely has no signs of turning back to BW. Broodwar has lost the potential for new fans, it just simply looks and acts too archaic. Starcraft II is the future... so for all of you singing doomsday a) Don't be negative and stereotypical pompous nerds..no one enjoys that and b) know that if Starcraft II falls, eSports falls. So instead of whining about bad maps, support map makers. Instead of screaming about all-ins, learn to combat them so effectively that they die out in popularity. Purist, fundamentalists resistent to change have never thrived in any time during history, I doubt they will now. is chess archaic? How do you know that the current interest in SC2 is longstanding, and it's not just the novelty effect coupled with pent up anticipation and the allure of impossibly high prize winnings? BW, on the other hand, can make the argument that it has transcended normal videogaming and has reached the status where it's not hampered by graphical limitations but instead is accepted for what it is. I guess this is what I'm trying to say: Starcraft2 is the future for RTS videogaming, sure. But it's starting to become arguable that professional BW is not a videogame anymore, but a flat out Sport. So no doubt SC2 will prosper during the normal lifecycle of a video game. But slowly, surely, I'm envisioning professional BW not only existing for the next year, but the next decade, with the same assurance I have that the NBA or NFL will exist in 2020. beautifully put.
yes I almost had tears.....
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Guys the truth is that... People don't go to watch SC2 because it's rather annoying... you can deny it, negate it... but it's the harsh reality.
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EPT
