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TicketoHELL
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada368 Posts
January 07 2011 02:46 GMT
#341
if only kespa just give it and let mbcgame and ogn to broadcast gsl it wont be like this for gsl *sigh*
(づ.ㅡ) 부비적 (ㅡ.ど) 부비적 (づ.ど) 부비부비
Sqq
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway2023 Posts
January 07 2011 02:47 GMT
#342
I can't help but feel its the maps. In BW most games last beyond 10 minutes. That is not the case with sc2.
Dead girls don't say no.
IamBach
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1059 Posts
January 07 2011 02:47 GMT
#343
On January 07 2011 11:42 Garrl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 11:40 AJMcSpiffy wrote:
BW's hold on the Korean scene will loosen with time as SC2 is out for longer and longer. It would be foolish to assume that a new game could unseat the biggest esport in the world on its home turf overnight. I think that once GSL/Blizzard starts incorporating new maps, and truly star players emerge, SC2 will really begin to take off. This game definitely has the potential to be as big as BW, but it's still going to take time. The GSL organizers seemed to think that they could just start off as big as BW on opening night, which was definitely not the case.


Nope, on the contrary: SC2's hold on the Korean scene will likely loosen, as BW is considered by most Koreans to be the better spectator sport.

nice we have the same signature
Just listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lCZeePG48
Garrl
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Scotland1975 Posts
January 07 2011 02:47 GMT
#344
I love watching SC2, I never watched BW and trying to watch it now after becoming a fan of SC2 makes me cringe.
It's all weird, confusing and crappy-looking.


I'll bet you're watching low-quality VODs, try playing some or watching hq VODs on moktira's channel
Garrl
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Scotland1975 Posts
January 07 2011 02:48 GMT
#345
On January 07 2011 11:46 TicketoHELL wrote:
if only kespa just give it and let mbcgame and ogn to broadcast gsl it wont be like this for gsl *sigh*


Er, but MBC and OGN don't *WANT* to broadcast GSL; Blizzard are trying to sue them, and Gretech tried to move BW from prime time slot for sc2.
aru
Profile Joined April 2010
183 Posts
January 07 2011 02:50 GMT
#346
On January 07 2011 11:44 Supamang wrote:
I see countless posts like "I dont play SC2, but I found its so boring to watch compared to BW." Well no shit youre gonna find it boring to watch because you dont even play the game and thus dont relate to it whatsoever.


Isn't that the point? SC2 isn't interesting unless you play it. It doesn't work well as a spectator sport for people who do not play it. I bet you most of the BW watchers here don't play BW either.
maliceee
Profile Joined August 2010
United States634 Posts
January 07 2011 02:51 GMT
#347
wait till the first expansion comes out. it will explode.
Austere
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3 Posts
January 07 2011 02:52 GMT
#348
I want to add a +1 or whatever it is to those that criticize the SC2 map pool. I never played a lot of 1:1 Brood War, but I've watched quite a few VODs and replays over the years. In general, the larger maps make the games so much more interesting. Things are constantly going on all over the map because to grab that economic edge the players have to spread their "area of influence" pretty widely, and maneuvers like drops and small groups of units attacking undefended places become quite effective. These tactics are exciting, it creates an atmosphere of constant action instead of one of mass mass mass BIG FIGHT mass mass mass (1 base or main+natural only games tend to fall into this category).

It's a shame that the maps don't support this style of gameplay because SC2's simplified macro mechanics would allow for truly dynamic big map macro-style games. We have seen a few games of this type in SC2 and they really are quite exciting...

Another reason BW is more exciting than SC2 right now:
+ Show Spoiler +

Let’s begin with the matchup that deviates the most from the norm when played on Pathfinder. For Zerg, short air distances means there is little reason to stray from the standard two or three hatch mutalisks strategy, but Terran players can be tempted into a variety of one-base options.

By now any professional Terran player can pull off a pretty decent two starport wraith build. So well, in fact, that it temporarily became the standard Pathfinder build after its debut. It led to an amusing TvZ metagame which was very similar to the old “Fantasy build” metagame where Zerg would try to go to three hatch mutas while building the bare minimum number of hydralisks required to defend.

From there, Terrans have mixed it up with even more one base builds that try to exploit Zerg’s tendency to pump as many drones as possible before mutalisks. Both Hiya and Suny went for clever one base dropship builds timed to hit before mutalisks; Hiya succeeded and Suny would have if not for his mistakes. There was some creative defense on display as well, when Fantasy dusted off his old “Fantasy-build” which rushes for goliaths and valkyries in order to counter mutalisks (though in that particular game, his opponent read the move and went for a three hatch hydralisk all-in).

Standard 1 rax FE has been decent on the map as well, which is not surprising since you can’t really go wrong with mass M&M into vessels against Zerg. Though it hasn’t been the dominant strat on Pathfinder, it is certainly viable. I did find it amusing though, that Mind, a very safe player who prefers rax FE in almost any scenario, has used 2 port wraith exclusively on this map.

Even with 11 games played, I don’t think we can come to many conclusions on this map. Terran players are still experimenting with different strategies, while Zerg players have yet to utilize many counter-counter builds as of yet. This matchup should continue to be unpredictable and entertaining.

This is a long quotation, but my point is not exactly this particular excerpt but more specifically the depth of it. This is an incredibly specific and developed write-up. I think that, in general, it would be hard to emulate this for SC2 as it is now. I believe this is because of the relative newness of SC2, it hasn't been able to develop this intricate a metagame yet.


It would seem as if the availability of replays and VODs would accelerate SC2's development process (as well as the sophisticated understanding inherited from BW) and in some ways it probably does. However in others it actually retards development because people quickly latch onto accepted strategies they watch others doing and feel it unnecessary to explore the possibilities further.

TL;DR: More macro focused maps would probably be a step in the right direction, but also SC2 is young and has a lot of room left for discoveries.
Supamang
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2298 Posts
January 07 2011 02:55 GMT
#349
On January 07 2011 11:50 aru wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 11:44 Supamang wrote:
I see countless posts like "I dont play SC2, but I found its so boring to watch compared to BW." Well no shit youre gonna find it boring to watch because you dont even play the game and thus dont relate to it whatsoever.


Isn't that the point? SC2 isn't interesting unless you play it. It doesn't work well as a spectator sport for people who do not play it. I bet you most of the BW watchers here don't play BW either.

really. i dont watch BW anymore. I played BW a long ass time ago and i watched it for a little longer after i stopped playing too, but i stopped ever since SC2 came out. Needless to say, I had to play both games before I found either interesting to watch. I can bet that 95% or more of my friends do not watch BW or SC2 and would find neither of them interesting if I showed either to them. They all play basketball and football and watch sport center though.
Meteora.GB
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2479 Posts
January 07 2011 03:01 GMT
#350
I'm not going to bother reading through the entire thread but; like I say for many games, give it some time. The game is like what, less than half a year old? BW didn't exactly take off rapidly since its incarnation.

User was temp banned for this post.
numLoCK
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada1416 Posts
January 07 2011 03:07 GMT
#351
On January 07 2011 12:01 Meteora.GB wrote:
I'm not going to bother reading through the entire thread but; like I say for many games, give it some time. The game is like what, less than half a year old? BW didn't exactly take off rapidly since its incarnation.

BW didn't have a plethora of "pro" gamers ready to take it up and oodles of cash and sponsors thrown at it, though.
I do hope that popularity picks up, though, and I think having new maps would help quite a bit. I mean, people always say BW is super balanced but over the years there have been many differences in common map layouts that result from different "imbalances", and proper map making plays a huge part in the balance and flow of the game.
blue001
Profile Joined January 2009
106 Posts
January 07 2011 03:07 GMT
#352
I will be honest. I played SCBW and SC2. For me I play SC2 because it's very easy to beat people and beating people makes me feel good. I stopped playing 1v1 because it's not fun having to one base - two base every game. I also play a lot of UMS because they're a lot of fun too. I never watched GSL, and only watched a few matches because people told me too. I will never watch GSL because SC2 is boring to watch, i only play to beat people not because it's strategic and I want to improve. Even when I watch SC2 videos on husky to pass the time i find myself often skipping parts because its damn boring. However even though I don't play SCBW anymore I follow the progamers OSL MSL PL because its very entertaining. When you can understand the high level of play that requires a lot of practice to pull off due to the difficulty it makes every game fun to observe. There are players that are on the scene for a long time which generates an attachment to the players such as Flash, Jaedong, FBH, Stork etc. whereas in SC2 there are no consistent S-class level players. Then the entertainment value is derived outside of the game matches itself, but from the players. This makes it more than the GSL currently is and probably more than it will ever be. I hate to say this but SC2 is just too easy to do 1A after putting your army into a decent formation, and there's no cool micro to do. But if you guys try playing SCBW then you will see that 12 control group means you have to put a lot of effort into everything. I hope to see GSL popularity die because it's a poor tournament. Spectate = BW . Play = Whichever is more fun (I would play BW still but I just hate finding games too much effort and I'm lazy)
IamBach
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1059 Posts
January 07 2011 03:08 GMT
#353
On January 07 2011 11:44 Supamang wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 11:24 Greentellon wrote:
Football, skating, baseball and others are not "spectator sports" either, they are incredibly boring especially when compared to things like GSL.

ehhh...wait what? football is boring to watch? football to me and many millions of americans is one of the greatest sports to watch. I dont like watching baseball, but i do know a lot of people who do like it.

I think this kinda emphasizes a key point. if you dont like something, you aren't going to find watching it interesting. yea, seems pretty hurr durr obvious, but a lot of people seem to ignore that when they post. I see countless posts like "I dont play SC2, but I found its so boring to watch compared to BW." Well no shit youre gonna find it boring to watch because you dont even play the game and thus dont relate to it whatsoever. I find halo boring to watch, I find curling boring to watch, I find the winter olympics in general boring to watch. And yet all of those have healthy sized audiences.

Who cares what you think? Just because you think that SC2 is "boring to watch" doesnt make it actually boring to watch in general. Im willing to bet that the audience of those people who find BW boring to watch compared to football is several thousand times larger than the opposite crowd, and yet if they say "I dont play BW, but I find it boring compared to football", I can bet that most of TL.net would argue differently.

Until someone gets some kinda poll data showing a large majority of e-sports followers saying SC2 is boring to watch compared to BW, its stupid to claim that SC2 is more boring to watch than BW.

well basically any1 that can understand a game of bw and knows ANYThing about sc2, can understand a game of sc2 and so if they say its boring to watch they probably actually mean it.
Just listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lCZeePG48
prototype.
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada4215 Posts
January 07 2011 03:10 GMT
#354
On January 07 2011 11:50 aru wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2011 11:44 Supamang wrote:
I see countless posts like "I dont play SC2, but I found its so boring to watch compared to BW." Well no shit youre gonna find it boring to watch because you dont even play the game and thus dont relate to it whatsoever.


Isn't that the point? SC2 isn't interesting unless you play it. It doesn't work well as a spectator sport for people who do not play it. I bet you most of the BW watchers here don't play BW either.

This man speaks the truth. I watch BW but i don't play much of it. I tried to play 1v1 BW but it's so frustratingly difficult. I want to practice with ppl i know like my friends but none of them play.
( ・´ー・`)
noD
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
January 07 2011 03:10 GMT
#355
On January 07 2011 12:01 Meteora.GB wrote:
I'm not going to bother reading through the entire thread but; like I say for many games, give it some time. The game is like what, less than half a year old? BW didn't exactly take off rapidly since its incarnation.


But the game didnt start with 50k prizes monthly and big sponsors also
they created the situation where it MUST skyrocket and not fall....
goldenwitch
Profile Joined August 2010
United States338 Posts
January 07 2011 03:12 GMT
#356
lol, surprise, people aren't showing up in the middle of the work week to watch all ins.

Really, when we have empty studios on the weekends then we should panic.
Swissm
Profile Joined June 2010
United States207 Posts
January 07 2011 03:14 GMT
#357
I used to go to bed at 8pm every day so I could get up at 2am to watch GSL1-3. During the intermission for some TvZ (I think it was Rain vs Nestea?) I turned on some Proleague just to check it out (I have never watched pro BW before) and found it so much more fun to watch than SC2. I truly think the root cause for SC2 not reaching its current potential is because of how quickly warp gates come out and how they are the ONE thing Blizzard HAS to balance around. You HAVE to balance the whole game (PvT, PvZ, TvZ, and maps) around what Protoss can hit you with in the first 7 mins of the game. Warpgates negate map size, so you essentially have to balance the game around surviving that proxy. If warpgates were moved later down the tech tree (obviously you'd change gateway build times) so they became more of a late game expansion defense or reinforcement that would open up loads of opportunity for changing the pace of the early game and making macro games more appealing (by extension this would also bring back that OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO factor when someone takes that huge gamble and goes for some cheese in a game).
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
January 07 2011 03:14 GMT
#358
On the subject of "give it time", I'm not sure if this is possible, short of Blizzard deciding to just throw money at it continously to support it. We live in an instant-gratification society, filled with entertainment choices to fill our time. This isn't the "there are only several channels on TV to watch every night" era. BW may have gotten a lot of time to develop, but I don't see the same with SC2, especially when Blizzard isn't dependent on it, unlike KESPA whose revenue source is intricately linked to esport success.

Also, great point by the guy who mentioned the lack of defender's advantage. Definitely would promote more macro play and therefore more high-level tech units and more strategies.
Meh
Conversion
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3308 Posts
January 07 2011 03:15 GMT
#359
On January 07 2011 12:01 Meteora.GB wrote:
I'm not going to bother reading through the entire thread but; like I say for many games, give it some time. The game is like what, less than half a year old? BW didn't exactly take off rapidly since its incarnation.


if you're not going to read the thread, don't bother posting, really. not only is your opinion less credible, you're blatantly stating, "I'm too lazy to read a constructive discussion but I like to throw my opinion out there."

and yes, bw wasn't the greatest game when it came out. I remember the first time I watched the OSL with my dad and and some rookie protoss used a proxy stargate carrier rush. I was confused as hell since strategy wasn't developed, but it was fun to watch.

Compare that to SC2. Blizzard announced it when, 2007? They had time to look at what made BW a huge success for 7-9 years while they were developing it. If you had that much time with BW as a near perfect example, why are half, if not the majority, of the SC2 fans here complaining about it? If you read the past posts, they don't care that it's been out six months. They're not seeing much development past the 1-2 base allin/hanbang armies. Three tournaments and you're STILL seeing all-ins and cheeses. I don't care how long the game was out, but if three damn GSLs took place and you still have cheeses and all-ins dominating, the game is going to remain stagnant. Time will only improve SC2 is effort from Blizzard and the community, so no, giving it time will not improve SC2 at this rate.

Gudeldar
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1200 Posts
January 07 2011 03:15 GMT
#360
Jesus christ people, the game hasn't even been out a year yet and people are already predicting its demise as an e-sport. Even if GSL disappears (which I doubt) there is always MLG, IEM, TSL and whole bunch of other foreign leagues. Sure they might not have as big a prize pool but the entertainment value is just as good if not better than GSL.
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