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On November 17 2010 01:16 DCat wrote:
to many people make big giant robots. Day9 has said this is a problem for Protoss because they rush for the GIant robot and then can't make other core units because of minerals. Fast expanding every 4 to 5 minutes works with Protoss yet nobody takes advantage of it. day9 showed how it could be done last night.
are you the same DCat troll from battle.net forums?
Protoss do expand against Terran relatively quickly and hold it alright.
Against Zerg it is suicide because Roaches will rape your fast expansion.
Trust me, not all Protoss players like 4-gating or 2 base all-in, let alone do them.
In fact I just realize how cute this entire thread is. So many newb posters in here it's like a nursery full of chubby toddlers! I just want to pinch those cheeks!!
Sorry that not all of us have been touching Starcraft more competitively for as long as you have. While you may be a very good player, I find it slightly annoying that you are not offering any counter arguments to our doubts while effectively just implying that "all of you are noobs".
We may very well be and our viewpoints might be biased or just flat out wrong, but so far I'm really not seeing any counter arguments from you.
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On November 17 2010 01:16 DCat wrote:
to many people make big giant robots. Day9 has said this is a problem for Protoss because they rush for the GIant robot and then can't make other core units because of minerals. Fast expanding every 4 to 5 minutes works with Protoss yet nobody takes advantage of it. day9 showed how it could be done last night.
So why are you not playing in the gsl 
Also I note people saying " if toss does this bad the next (2/3) GSL then I will belive the imbalance "
Fun fact. Those are the same people who said " toss will do better in GSL 3 qualifiers!"
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Here's my hypothesis, but I am not high level, so take it with a grain of salt.
Protoss is losing at the highest levels because they are severely disadvantaged when it comes to map control. This explains why people have trouble putting their finger on exactly what the problem is (map control is an abstract, nebulous concept), why the fix doesn't seem obvious, and also why the balance problem seems to mostly be happening at the highest levels of play.
Protoss is the slowest, least mobile race, so moving out is always risky. And because Protoss has no good harassing units, it's harder to pin your Terran or Zerg opponent in their base (other than very temporary, cheesy, early-game techniques like cannon contains.)
Yes, there are void rays, but all void ray builds are risky and easy to scout. For example, Terran can easily counter with stim marines, which is something they're going to want in their main army anyway. Because voids are so expensive, the sacrifices made to the main army will make Protoss very vulnerable. And because voids are slow and fragile, they don't pin Terran or Zerg in their base the way banshees and mutalisks do. Mutalisks are so fast that they're not so risky to build. They can be where-ever Zerg needs them very quickly. And the Protoss "counters" for mutalisk (blink stalker or storm) are only ho-hum because mutas are so fast. Likewise, banshees are effective if they join back up with the main army, so Terran isn't risking much.
The same is true of the races' dropships. Warp prisms are fragile, gimmicky and purely single-purpose. Medivacs are obviously more useful. If your opponent somehow counters your medivac drops, you can still use them in your main army for healing. You'd never use warp prisms energy field as part of your normal army! Likewise with overlords. You need to get them anyway, and you have other good reasons to get overlord speed, so ventral sacs are not going too far out of your way.
Finally, observers, while they do provide detection, don't provide as much map control as creep and overlords, or orbital command and sensor towers.
Yes, Protoss has certain strengths that other races don't have, but since all the weaknesses affect map control, it leaves a big gaping hole.
Possible fixes:
Improve observers - make them faster, cheaper, faster to build, larger vision radius, something...
Big buff to warp prisms - Since they're the most single-purpose drop-ship in the game, they should be the best at that job. Make them faster and more durable.
Make other units faster - Perhaps make zealot legs cheaper (compared to stim, zergling speed, concussive, etc. it's slow/expensive to get and is a greater tech commitment)
Improve stargate tech - Phoenixes are the "cheap" Protoss air unit, but it's still going down a risky and expensive tech path. And it's a dead-end because carriers suck so hard. If Protoss could plan on profitably transitioning to carriers in the late game, then it'd be a lot more worthwhile to get Phoenixes early on.
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On November 17 2010 01:16 DCat wrote:
to many people make big giant robots. Day9 has said this is a problem for Protoss because they rush for the GIant robot and then can't make other core units because of minerals. Fast expanding every 4 to 5 minutes works with Protoss yet nobody takes advantage of it. day9 showed how it could be done last night.
To be just reading this right...you are suggesting pro-gamers should play like people play on day9 funday monday?
Brb just gonna bang my head against the wall really hard, several times.
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On November 17 2010 01:04 Cade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:00 Treehead wrote:On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote:On November 16 2010 23:39 dtz wrote:On November 16 2010 22:42 Cade wrote:
There is also just a lower number of good Protoss players. Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. I don't know why you think Inca , Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing. Sure in diamond they do that, but GSL people? who are sponsored and have teams + coaches ?? Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct. Actually, I think use of the words "cheesy 2base strategies" here is ridiculous. It is a growing trend amongst players to call any attack which occurs before they are ready to defend it a "cheese" or "all-in". A cheese is a strategy that has no viable transition afterwards which is counterable if scouted. From liquipedia: "A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack. A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage. " A 2-base build sitting on ~50 probes is clearly fits neither aspect of that description. Perhaps I should have used a different word then, such as 2-base all-in. Whatever you want to call it, a lot of P's fast expand then sit on 2 base and mass up for one big attack, go for it, kill their opponent a high percentage of the time, and lose the rest of the time.
The reason for these pushes changes from race to race - in general though, when you have a 2-base economy to fall back on (with the opportunity to take a third behind said "big attack"), you aren't really "all in" unless you decide not to retreat and sac your army when your opponent is too entrenched (which is a rather large mistake that you should lose to regardless of build order, "cheese" factor, etc.). Just in general though, if an opponent is macroing up a big army, and you aren't in a position to do that - how is this different than you being outplayed? Why do you feel you cannot match the Protoss's economy? Have you tried?
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On November 17 2010 01:16 DCat wrote:
to many people make big giant robots. Day9 has said this is a problem for Protoss because they rush for the GIant robot and then can't make other core units because of minerals. Fast expanding every 4 to 5 minutes works with Protoss yet nobody takes advantage of it. day9 showed how it could be done last night.
This in fact works with all races when your enemy doesn't attack you at all. But all those korean guys are attacking junkies. They don't feel good if they don't attack.
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On November 17 2010 01:16 DCat wrote:
to many people make big giant robots. Day9 has said this is a problem for Protoss because they rush for the GIant robot and then can't make other core units because of minerals. Fast expanding every 4 to 5 minutes works with Protoss yet nobody takes advantage of it. day9 showed how it could be done last night.
Aow comon.. seriously?
This is NOT the problem. The reason for people rushing to colossi is just because gateway units is just less costeffective than zerg untis. Gateway units are indeed TRASH and their only good purpose is defending the colossi. Gateway units without colossi are a pile of crap unless you place perfect forcefields. But in the end of the day, you need that colossi.
And yes, to the majority of people mr 9 probably have the point. But the very high-end protosses, the ones that got SMASHED in the qualifiers, most likley have learned not to rush for colossi without making enough supportive units.
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On November 17 2010 01:24 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:16 DCat wrote:
to many people make big giant robots. Day9 has said this is a problem for Protoss because they rush for the GIant robot and then can't make other core units because of minerals. Fast expanding every 4 to 5 minutes works with Protoss yet nobody takes advantage of it. day9 showed how it could be done last night. This in fact works with all races when your enemy doesn't attack you at all. But all those korean guys are attacking junkies. They don't feel good if they don't attack.
to be fair. If both players are fast expanding then the relative advantage of fast expanding is lost. Obviously if you can fast expand while putting pressure on your opponent to discourage him from fast expanding your economy will be better than his as long as you micro properly and not lose a whole bunch units and prompt an all-in counter attack.
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If you'd read the qualifier interviews for the few protoss that DID make it, the problems they discussed were:
1. Marauders
2. Tech Paths/Costs
3. Roaches
That's just off what I remember from the interviews.
PLEASE BLIZZARD - LOOK at the gsl 3. Look at what happened to all the protoss who tried to qualify.. and who died. And WHY.
..And stop nerfing OUR FRIGGIN UNITS!!
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And if Day 9's strategies are the 'right way' protoss should be doing it..
.. why didn't he make it into GSL?
oh snap.
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On November 17 2010 00:36 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 00:29 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:26 dtz wrote:
Clearly there are a lot of people here who interpreted your original statement the way that I did so I dunno if its our fault or yours.
But yea even the Protosses you think are good are struggling to even qualify. Might or might not be balance problems but certainly worth having a second look at. Like I said, one important thing to remember is the fact that the map pool sucked for Protoss. Big Time. The map pool has been the same for all 3 gsl qualifiers. ( metal, xelnaga, scrap) So the decrease in Protoss can't be due to only map pools. Patches maybe. Or that people's understanding of the game has increased. Or just a freakish sets of results.
Pretty sure thats not true as xelnaga wasnt in the map pool for the first GSL was it?
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On November 17 2010 01:27 andrewwiggin wrote:
And if Day 9's strategies are the 'right way' protoss should be doing it..
.. why didn't he make it into GSL?
oh snap.
Well to be fair to Day9 his strategies are for people trying to improve their ladder games not as an instruction manual to win the GSL. As to his own abilities he is quite rightly putting his education first at the moment.
Edit unbelievable that someone would quote a funday monday game as a strategy to get into the GSL.
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People should stop referring to Day9 strategies on here at once. Day9 is giving these advices for low level players, not GSL players, who he himself barely understands and tries to learn from them. It is a source of new strategies and information for him, not the other way around, i.e. GSL players aren't and won't watch Day9 to get ideas how to deal with situations.
Day9 won't beat NA players, let alone GSL players with his own strategies. So while watching and learning is good, understand that he is not making the show for GSL players.
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Control map is a real issue. Protoss has some units for that but they are all really hard to pull off :
-phoenix (best unit in the game for control map imo), expensive tech/unit and risky against rush/all in builds
-blink stalker, need some tech and maybe comme too late, also easy to counter
-dt, expensive tech/unit, come too late
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On November 17 2010 01:33 Xxavi wrote:
People should stop referring to Day9 strategies on here at once. Day9 is giving these advices for low level players, not GSL players, who he himself barely understands and tries to learn from them. It is a source of new strategies and information for him, not the other way around, i.e. GSL players aren't and won't watch Day9 to get ideas how to deal with situations.
Day9 won't beat NA players, let alone GSL players with his own strategies. So while watching and learning is good, understand that he is not making the show for GSL players.
"Barely understands", well at least HuK seems to think his feedback is very welcome. 
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On November 17 2010 01:18 david0925 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:16 DCat wrote:
to many people make big giant robots. Day9 has said this is a problem for Protoss because they rush for the GIant robot and then can't make other core units because of minerals. Fast expanding every 4 to 5 minutes works with Protoss yet nobody takes advantage of it. day9 showed how it could be done last night. are you the same DCat troll from battle.net forums? Protoss do expand against Terran relatively quickly and hold it alright. Against Zerg it is suicide because Roaches will rape your fast expansion. Trust me, not all Protoss players like 4-gating or 2 base all-in, let alone do them. Show nested quote +In fact I just realize how cute this entire thread is. So many newb posters in here it's like a nursery full of chubby toddlers! I just want to pinch those cheeks!! Sorry that not all of us have been touching Starcraft more competitively for as long as you have. While you may be a very good player, I find it slightly annoying that you are not offering any counter arguments to our doubts while effectively just implying that "all of you are noobs". We may very well be and our viewpoints might be biased or just flat out wrong, but so far I'm really not seeing any counter arguments from you.
I"m not a troll and never was, but I think there is a way to evolve protoss play. Protoss has some great units and are struggling like zerg was, but that means there are ways to work up different build orders. The key right now is players and pros trying to be creative with the game. I am currently excited about the fast expand idea because it is interesting. I never thought protoss would do well with a fast expand so it changed my views. Now it is just working out builds as far as I can see.
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Once again, we have to re-iterate, it seems Protoss is forced into 1-2 very limited strategies every game. Currently, the game is evolving mostly around little details, not different strategies. With Terran and Zerg, especially the former, you can see all sorts of units being used in armies and different strategies.
Blizzard has to stop nerfing/buffing BS. They need some fundamental changes to some units, so that it is at least mystery for a little moment what Protoss will and can do. At the moment, Zerg and Terran know what Protoss is going to do without even scouting.
Make Archons, DTs, carriers, mothership really playable. Make it viable strategy to go to HTs and then use bunch of Archons as powerful units. Make warp-prisms, which are solely dedicated dropship in the game, better than overlords and freaking mediavac. It's ridiculous that warp-prism is worse than these double purpose units.
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On November 17 2010 01:27 andrewwiggin wrote:
And if Day 9's strategies are the 'right way' protoss should be doing it..
.. why didn't he make it into GSL?
oh snap.
The daily just came out last night so it still takes time to evolve a build order around it. Day9 showed a unique fast expand on Gold vs diamond. For protoss it worked. It could be just one video, but how do we know it can't be evolved into a valuable play till we as players try adapting a method that makes it work. I think we players are the key here on figuring out a new and exciting way to make protoss work.
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KDCC's FE against Terran has been out there since what, August? And many, many Protoss players have been using it to great success.
Forge Fast Expand and 15 Nexus has also existed for a decent amount of time against Zerg, but both became risky if the Zerg decide to put pressure (note: not all-in to kill you) on you with Roaches because you can no longer effectively wall in on most maps with cannons against the buffed range of Roaches.
Fast expansions have been valid tactics for a really long time (in relation to this game) and have not been "new creative" tactics. It's just that 4gate is so much easier to play with and can beat people that aren't good at balancing between making enough units to defend while expanding (like myself)
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EPT
