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[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 97

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DNA61289
Profile Joined August 2010
United States665 Posts
November 16 2010 17:23 GMT
#1921
Protoss's entire tech tree is flawed, you are forced to play a certain way depending on which ever route you go.
But yeah being a Korean gamer is very imba. If you're a non-korean gamer you have to balance your game playing with earning money and your real life. If you're Korean you just sit around playing games all day eating 2 cent ramyun and becoming gosu.
Jacobs Ladder
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1705 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-16 17:25:50
November 16 2010 17:25 GMT
#1922
Oh wow, I just don't agree with you on anything. XD

On November 17 2010 01:44 Severus_ wrote:
I think tosses are doing bad in GSL because there is no one good compere to other guys.Zerg has Idra,FD,Dimaga,Ret some other epic Koreans.Terran has Optimus,BoxeR,NaDa,SeleCT,Jinro,Loner and what does protoss has? NEXGenius,WhiteRa and some #14~60 ladder players who ether are
1.cheesy - Kiwikaki,Nazgul,Tyler
2.standard playing - Socke and the other euro guys
I'm not saying this guys are bad overall just not good as the other pros.The other reason i think toss is failing because toss is the easiest race to be good at and no one is thinking outside the box.For tosses there is no one to make the builds to make the highlights and make people say "oh i want to be like that guy" and encourage people to think of new builds and new strats...anyway that is only my opinion and i hope more tosses to qualify for the next GSL.

1. I maintain that Tyler has been playing with a lot of all-ins because he sees that as the best chance of winning. His macro was amazing in BW, and I'm sure he could easily macro as well as almost anyone in SCII. He does hard two base all ins because they work.

You say no one is thinking outside the box, what do you suggest? Its not like T or Z are doing anything too amazingly different from beta even. Sure, they've refined, but they haven't really CHANGED that much.

The problem in my eyes is the fragility of protoss. This isn't necissarily a balance issue, but rather something that P players must be very aware of. If they lose a lot of workers, there is likely no recovery. If they miss key force fields, same thing. If they mess up positioning on one fight, same thing. When everything goes right, toss is terrifying, its when little things go wrong that they seem to fold like a wet napkin.
ZerOfy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom405 Posts
November 16 2010 17:25 GMT
#1923
I think gateway units need to be buffed. Perhaps warpgates should take longer to research to compensate, but SOMETHING needs to be done with them. Toss is far to reliant on big expensive units which can be easily countered.
My life for Aiur!
Aarth
Profile Joined October 2010
United States8 Posts
November 16 2010 17:25 GMT
#1924
On November 17 2010 00:44 Cade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote:
On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:
On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:
On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:
On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:
On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote:
On November 16 2010 23:39 dtz wrote:
On November 16 2010 22:42 Cade wrote:
There is also just a lower number of good Protoss players. Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon.


I don't know why you think Inca , Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing.

Sure in diamond they do that, but GSL people? who are sponsored and have teams + coaches ??



Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing."


Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond.

I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000).

If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion.


Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read?

I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about.


I quote you:

Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon.


So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about.


Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway)


The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win.

There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here)

Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about.

So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct.


Wow I actually pissed you off enough for you to post a coherent, reasonable post! Go me!

I am a P user myself btw.

I understand what you are saying and I think that is the problem that many people have, is that they are trapped into that kind of thinking. Protoss is a race of finesse, with brute strength to finish the game. But the real power of Protoss comes from slowly chipping an advantage, and being able to apply pressure (be it real or just a ruse) with relatively few units.


What are these units?
Collosus/immortals need plenty of army support to apply pressure.

Prisms drops need allot of tech to be actually be threatening with small numbers.
+ Show Spoiler +
For early game warp prism drops.

Immortals have 5 range and are slower then marines/zeals they don't "kite". You can do some pickup drop micro vs melee/ground units but all traditional AA units(marines especially w/ stim, hydra on creep, and stalkers[prisms are armored]) do exceeding well vs the low health warp prism which only has 40 shields so regen abuse is minimal. Immortals have long been known as a decent drop unit but only vs structures not workers. Immortals need +2 ups before a pair can one shot Terran workers. As a result immortal drops tend to very little dmg to worker lines as they have low dps vs light units and are to slow to give chase if the workers are moved.

This is the same issue with stalkers, although they are able to give chase to running workers, they have very low dps vs light units and they lack the high dps vs armored that immortals have(i.e. stalkers aren't much of a structural threat).

Zealots have another issue for they actually do decent dps, but since they move slower then workers they effectiveness can be quite easily compromised by the opponent just running the workers around. Zealot drop are quite good if you can manage to "distract" an opponent enough so you hope he doesn't notice. As players get better this becomes far less useful. Including sentries in the drop can make it far more threatening but its also makes the drop far costlier. Any units you warp or bring in beyond the initial 4 will be scuicided, so the risk goes way up on the drop being actually successful(you have to inflict that much more dmg since you have guaranteed yourself losses on your side).

Note to get blink/charge and warp prism drop will push its availability significantly later in the game. Unfortunately the timing works out so that Terrans will have access vikings and/or stimmed marines, Zerg mutas or hydras, and Protoss likely will have collosus while you don't meaning that you trying hard not to die. In typical games, this pretty much means your warp prism drop will be a scuicide run. In order to remedy this you need the warp prism speed upgrade, the time it takes to get this tends to make this a late game drop. Of course late game drop options have been always quite good for Protoss. The problem is precisely that, they are late game so the overall economic and pressure benefits of harass tend to become allot more muted.


Phoenix need a pack of at least 4-5 to apply any real pressure(overall a significant investment and is especially very risky early on to counter pushes).

Void Rays require greater numbers to be threatening after the patch 1.1.2 basically doubling the number needed to pressure the enemy to stay put. Note that VRs threat came from the ability to kill buildings quickly, they preform relatively poorly versus workers even now after the changes.

I hope you don't consider mothership/carrier to be the pressure units, both tend to require extensive army support.

Blink stalker need mass to actually do any pressure as frankly there damage with out significant numbers to just to low to be scary.

That leaves HTs and DTs. DTs do fit the bill, but very situational and can be shut down rather quickly as a pressure threat. This risk of this tech is that it tends to be a dead end costing you just about a much as it cost the opponent to counter it.

HTs can be quite good for a pressure contain with forward pylons, but again high tech investment and very later game.

For sentry FF on ramp it generally is done with your entire army pushing early in the game not just a few units.

Generally I have found that you need to really bring your Protoss army ball to make you opponent move back. For zerg a handful of mutas and lings offer this threat quite well, Terran have drops and hellions that can keep you pinned down very effectvely and stim/concussion makes small poking forces very retreatable.
VenerableSpace
Profile Joined May 2010
United States463 Posts
November 16 2010 17:26 GMT
#1925
On November 17 2010 02:20 Jacobs Ladder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2010 02:15 Severus_ wrote:
Definition of cheese: attack that wins the game or loses the game or an attack that has no follow up.
like 6pool,4warpgate,3gate blink,2port banshee

That's an All-In, not cheese. Also, 4 gate, 3 gate, Banshee and Blink CAN all have follow through. There's a difference between a 4 gate All-In and a 4 gate expo, for example.

Cheese is something that, if scouted, isn't good. Such as 6 pool, proxy buildings, and cannon rushes.



I agree, and I think alot of people dont understand this. Any early game aggression gets deemed cheese.

I think this is a concept Day9 and other prominent members in the community should clarify so people have a better understanding.

CaptainFwiffo
Profile Joined August 2010
United States576 Posts
November 16 2010 17:35 GMT
#1926
Cheese == whatever I lost to in the last game
"Even though they don't drink milk, milk comes out of their nose, disturbingly." - Tasteless
MichaelZon
Profile Joined October 2010
Finland21 Posts
November 16 2010 17:35 GMT
#1927
On November 17 2010 02:15 Severus_ wrote:
Definition of cheese: attack that wins the game or loses the game or an attack that has no follow up.
like 6pool,4warpgate,3gate blink,2port banshee
You guys say that Zerg was UP before some patches it because people back then didn't know how to safe expand and after that players like Idra,FD thought "oh htf i am gonna keep my expo from dying guess i have to change my build" and nowadays every Z fast expands and know how to defend because ppl copy their builds and that is why other races are QQing about that.The game now pretty balanced imo there are only some small issues that need fixing but most of the time THE BETTER player wins the game.Remember when Zerg was bling busting or 1 basing and stuff and terran was like "oh crap how i am gonna beat that" then TLO comes and makes the 1/1/1 build and everything is in a whole new level after that zergs like Sen "invented" the magic box and so on....You see the evolving I don't see that in the toss players.That is what i am saying my English is kinda poor so maybe i didn't explain it correct.

Well the thing is, innovation isnt really possible with the current state of toss tech tree. Wanna go pure gateway units, templars etc? Cloak banshees and roaches with burrow will kill you. Stargates? Yeah, you get a crappy AA unit, gimmicky "harass" (read: autowin if not prepared, otherwise useless) and a pretty mediocre support unit. Oh and again, you get no detection.

Every game toss are forced to go fast robos to get detection. And after that, you need to make some use of that building... warp prisms are terrible compared to other "dropships", immortals are pretty good but with big armies they suck, so that leaves colossi. And thats pretty much why robo-colossi builds are actually the only safe builds toss can do. Other paths just are autolose to specific builds.
dala
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden477 Posts
November 16 2010 17:36 GMT
#1928
It's toss' ability to early cheese (e.g. cannon rush, proxy pylon rush, dt rush) that inflates their win ratio on Battle.net (PvT have 60% win!!).

Blizzard should neft protoss cheese builds and and give them a small buff to keep their win ratio from dropping far below ~50%. This would probably not hurt P in GSL, as cannon rushes etc. won't win you games against top players. But a buff might bring them up to level with T and Z.
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
November 16 2010 17:37 GMT
#1929
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch.
The more you know, the less you understand.
Xxavi
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1248 Posts
November 16 2010 17:46 GMT
#1930
Really, I felt sick in the stomach when I saw that Tester is knocked out again. Say whatever about Genius, he didn't show a single game at the best standards Tester showed yet. Even against Loner, he had moments where it was back and forth, and things like hidden gold base won him the game. It wasn't that he was showing very creative play or sick micro etc. And Loner isn't even a top 10 terran in the game, IMO.

So we are at the mercy of NEXGenius and oGsMC. oGsMC is apparently too good in his in-house games, that's why Protoss is fine (isn't this amusing?). Hopefully, these can pull a Fruitdealer and still put a good show despite the race imbalances. But I am yet to see any Protoss show a game at the level of Tester. Freaking a sad day...
Seide
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States831 Posts
November 16 2010 17:48 GMT
#1931
On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch.

He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s.

I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better.
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
Xxavi
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1248 Posts
November 16 2010 17:50 GMT
#1932
On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch.

He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s.

I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better.

Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss?
Seide
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States831 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-16 17:56:38
November 16 2010 17:54 GMT
#1933
On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:
On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch.

He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s.

I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better.

Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss?

Who knows, hard to say about Tester, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also a lot of those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns.
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
bokeevboke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Singapore1674 Posts
November 16 2010 17:55 GMT
#1934
So far I am very satisfied with how game is being balanced. Although I think Z is slightly stronger than T, we can actually see how tiny +1 range changes everything. I dunno about PvT or PvZ, seems to be there are some problems. And I believe it can be fixed by minor changes. For now, we need to focus on what we have and trust Blizs whatever they do. Just enjoy the games, put aside your balance opinions.
Its grack
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
November 16 2010 17:56 GMT
#1935
I wrote a long post about PvT, but decided to not post it because I'm pretty sure almost everything has been discussed already and blizzard knows whats going down.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Xxavi
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1248 Posts
November 16 2010 17:57 GMT
#1936
On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:
On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:
On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch.

He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s.

I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better.

Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss?

Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns.

Are you sure? Better as in what?

I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him.

Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine...
slam
Profile Joined May 2010
United States923 Posts
November 16 2010 17:57 GMT
#1937
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but here are the results from GSL Season 3 qualifiers:
Zerg:
27

Terran:
24

Protoss:
12

Random:
1

Looks like we're gonna have another season without much protoss representation... but hey, we'll see what happens.
I get it.
ZerOfy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom405 Posts
November 16 2010 17:59 GMT
#1938
I suppose that list reflects the Starcraft universe, with 'toss having the fewest numbers. :p
My life for Aiur!
Promises
Profile Joined February 2004
Netherlands1821 Posts
November 16 2010 18:02 GMT
#1939
I'm just not a big fan of NEXGenius, nor Inca. As was said above me, I never saw Genius play games with the wow-factor that Tester displayed, I never thought wow that was some sick play. If he wins he just plays a bit better then his opponent, but I don't really see great micro, great innovation or great builds. Unless a new Protoss emerges I wouldn't be surprised to see a Protoss-less Ro16.
I'm a man of my word, and that word is "unreliable".
CanucksJC
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada1241 Posts
November 16 2010 18:04 GMT
#1940
On November 17 2010 02:57 slam wrote:
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but here are the results from GSL Season 3 qualifiers:
Zerg:
27

Terran:
24

Protoss:
12

Random:
1

Looks like we're gonna have another season without much protoss representation... but hey, we'll see what happens.


The worst thing about that 12 toss number is it's missing the likes of InCa and Tester...

Really, the only toss I think that has a chance to go far is MC and Genius... and they're known to be rather fragile (MC aka suicide toss, Genius DAVIT'ed)
UBC StarCraft Club is official @ UBC Vancouver campus! Your first eSport community on campus. Welcomes players of all levels at UBC. Follow us on facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/group.php?gid=155630424470014 or IRC @ irc.rizon.net #ubcsc
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