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I think a buff to carriers would actually help phoenix by providing a useful transition from them to the late game.
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Viking DPS isn't the problem for phoenix vs viking, it's marine DPS.
Carriers currently do the same damage as equal resource stalkers WITH the carriers having +3 attack upgrades and the stalkers not. Yeah I'd say a buff is needed.
When I watch the Protoss tournament games I feel they not only do bad when they lose, they also do bad when they win.
The reason for this is because they need variety on their builds, and there is no way to play safe with them, they have to go all in and risk everything.
If it doesn't work they just get rolled and look like noobs.
If it does work its only because the other player didn't react properly.
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On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else.
But he still is the best with Protoss race. Who is clearly better than him? I see nobody out there who is doing better than him. NEXGenius seems a bit more consistent, but really, his game is not sensational either, I guess it's subjective in that debate. oGsMC is a lot of hope, but nothing to show for so far. So who is better than Tester?
AFAIK, Tester won a lot of tournaments in Korea during beta. By many, he was considered the best SC2 player for quite long. Before GSL1, Koreans were seeing him as the number 1 or so favorite. So it wasn't just Artosis and Idra hyping him.
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On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else.
Did you watch any of his games in the GSL1? He was beating off cheese left and right in a brilliant way and did the best FF split I've seen to date where he demolished a Terran who way outnumbered him with hardly any losses. His games against ITR were lackluster there but he made the Ro8 atleast. HuK shows some promising games as well but for me it's nothing like what Tester has shown. I just hope he gets his shit together when the real GSL season starts.
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Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored.
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On November 17 2010 03:50 mols0n wrote:
Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored.
Below the top 10% protoss can still win easily against terrans, but above that it it is pretty even, except Protoss is limited in choices for safe builds. Protoss needs a buff early game to their non-robo techs, and a slight nerf to their robo techs late game.
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On November 17 2010 03:43 Xxavi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else. But he still is the best with Protoss race. Who is clearly better than him? I see nobody out there who is doing better than him. NEXGenius seems a bit more consistent, but really, his game is not sensational either, I guess it's subjective in that debate. oGsMC is a lot of hope, but nothing to show for so far. So who is better than Tester? AFAIK, Tester won a lot of tournaments in Korea during beta. By many, he was considered the best SC2 player for quite long. Before GSL1, Koreans were seeing him as the number 1 or so favorite. So it wasn't just Artosis and Idra hyping him.
I don't want to argue against that, I was just curious if you were able to see games of him lately. Because he didn't manage to get to Ro64 GSL2 I haven't seen games from him since GSL 1 and I'd like to see some.
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On November 17 2010 03:50 mols0n wrote:
Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored.
But ladder is ladder, right. It's not the GSL standard, is it?
If you look at the players who were knocked out and who qualified, it shows that even the top of the ladder is having trouble to qualify. Because people might be playing not so seriously, experimenting etc.
Also, I think current Protoss strategies aren't too terrible to give some screwed stats like 70% loss. It is good enough to keep it around 49-51%, but these limited strategies are well known. Their counters are well known, the unit balance is well known, so all very top level Zs and Ts are giving interviews "I am confident with my vP". Well, duh, of course you are!
Most Zs fear a Z. Most Ts fear a Z. Nobody particularly fears a P.
So if Blizzard is to continue balancing 2v2s and gold and platinum leagues, they should nerf protoss some more and just start a tournament with two races already.
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On November 17 2010 03:50 mols0n wrote:
Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored.
i love how this isn't even true. AT ALL
Korea – Diamond
* PvT - 48.3%
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167042
rofl
seriously. great post man. what a terrific post.
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As has been stated before, that's Diamond as whole--all the way fro the ~500 point (relative) noobs to Fruitdealer and such. Point being: even *if* there's an imbalance in diamond league with PvT, saying it's P favored for instance, that doesn't actually show that that match up is P favored. The most it can "say" is that, overall, diamond level P users beat T users.
The same would hold if the races were different, also. With P, I think people are more concerned with their performance at major tournaments and things like that rather than whether or not low/mid level diamond P can defend well against T until getting to T3.\and then, finally, being able to attack reasonably well).
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On November 17 2010 03:55 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:50 mols0n wrote:
Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored. i love how this isn't even true. AT ALL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167042rofl seriously. great post man. what a terrific post.
ummm check the date on those stats, then look at this kthx
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1136961#blog
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On November 17 2010 03:50 mols0n wrote:
Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored.
haha i like how you made up facts to support your argument.
You are wrong. Or maybe you typed diamond when in fact you meant bronze league or something.
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On November 17 2010 03:55 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:43 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else. But he still is the best with Protoss race. Who is clearly better than him? I see nobody out there who is doing better than him. NEXGenius seems a bit more consistent, but really, his game is not sensational either, I guess it's subjective in that debate. oGsMC is a lot of hope, but nothing to show for so far. So who is better than Tester? AFAIK, Tester won a lot of tournaments in Korea during beta. By many, he was considered the best SC2 player for quite long. Before GSL1, Koreans were seeing him as the number 1 or so favorite. So it wasn't just Artosis and Idra hyping him. I don't want to argue against that, I was just curious if you were able to see games of him lately. Because he didn't manage to get to Ro64 GSL2 I haven't seen games from him since GSL 1 and I'd like to see some.
No. I just watch NA protoss usually. Or EU ones.
The Korean casts are very rare these days.
What I watch from those protoss, and it is most likely not their fault, does not make me go "oh, this guy would do the job in GSL". They are mostly along the NEXGenius lines, doing the same builds with little variance, and they are all inferior to NEXGenius, who I think has to be very lucky, more lucky than FD in GSL1, to win the whole thing.
I have more hope for oGsMC, who can come up with some crazy stuff may be. Equally, he can suicide himself too early.
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On November 17 2010 03:58 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:50 mols0n wrote:
Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored. haha i like how you made up facts to support your argument. You are wrong. Or maybe you typed diamond when in fact you meant bronze league or something.
Seriously check the above posts I posted my source. Can we please get a ban on these clowns?
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GSL Season 1: 27 protoss qualify, 3 quarterfinalists, 0 semifinalists.
GSL Season 2: 20 protoss qualify, 1 quarterfinalist, 0 semifinalists.
GSL Season 3: 12 protoss qualify...0 quarterfinalists?
Its like watching the dinosaurs go extinct!
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On November 17 2010 03:57 mols0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:55 travis wrote:On November 17 2010 03:50 mols0n wrote:
Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored. i love how this isn't even true. AT ALL
Korea – Diamond
* PvT - 48.3%
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167042rofl seriously. great post man. what a terrific post. ummm check the date on those stats, then look at this kthx http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1136961#blog
ok.. i guess i stand corrected... maybe?
im not really sure what the post u linked to is saying though. i searched for more recent tl posts on win percentages.
what is the blog post u linked to saying? why is there such a huge discrepancy between the win percentages in that post and the one from 4 days prior that i linked to?
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Is it just me, or is Korean Protoss more one-dimensional than western players'? It may be that I haven't seen enough of them, but other than a few games by Tester, very few stick out in my mind as particularly impressive or memorable, whereas I can think of a several Korean Terrans and Zergs that I've found memorable.
Western players it's almost the reverse. There's a fair amount of variety in Toss (well, Terran too), but less with Zerg. Think of the varying styles of TT1, Huk, Socke, Nightend, White-Ra, Kiwikaki, InControl...
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On November 17 2010 04:00 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:57 mols0n wrote:On November 17 2010 03:55 travis wrote:On November 17 2010 03:50 mols0n wrote:
Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored. i love how this isn't even true. AT ALL
Korea – Diamond
* PvT - 48.3%
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167042rofl seriously. great post man. what a terrific post. ummm check the date on those stats, then look at this kthx http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1136961#blog ok.. i guess i stand corrected... maybe? im not really sure what the post u linked to is saying though. i searched for more recent tl posts on win percentages. what is the blog post u linked to saying? why is there such a huge discrepancy between the win percentages in that post and the one from 4 days prior that i linked to?
Here is the post on TL
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169358
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ok, so basically those are "adjusted" win percentages, which is basically admitting that the matchmaking system sucks as a statistical basis for balance in the first place.
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On November 17 2010 03:55 CruelZeratul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:43 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else. But he still is the best with Protoss race. Who is clearly better than him? I see nobody out there who is doing better than him. NEXGenius seems a bit more consistent, but really, his game is not sensational either, I guess it's subjective in that debate. oGsMC is a lot of hope, but nothing to show for so far. So who is better than Tester? AFAIK, Tester won a lot of tournaments in Korea during beta. By many, he was considered the best SC2 player for quite long. Before GSL1, Koreans were seeing him as the number 1 or so favorite. So it wasn't just Artosis and Idra hyping him. I don't want to argue against that, I was just curious if you were able to see games of him lately. Because he didn't manage to get to Ro64 GSL2 I haven't seen games from him since GSL 1 and I'd like to see some.
During the week leading up to GSL 2 Finals , there was an inhouse clan matches in which TSL played so naturally the whole team was there.
Tester played 3 games. He beat cool in the semi and offraced with Terran to win the final. So yea we just saw him recently and he was looking fine.
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EPT
