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On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better.
Seriously? he was a decent BW player with over 100 1v1 Games played with about 40 percent winning ratio.
That might not sound impressive to you but i can assure you that is a record to be proud of in an extremely competitive korean bw scene.
It's funny that you say 2v2 because NesTea was the 2v2 specialist. He had a long career but only about 30 1v1 games played with about 30 percent winning ratio.
Your argument is extremely extremely invalid.
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On November 17 2010 03:04 CanucksJC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:57 slam wrote:
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but here are the results from GSL Season 3 qualifiers:
Zerg:
27
Terran:
24
Protoss:
12
Random:
1
Looks like we're gonna have another season without much protoss representation... but hey, we'll see what happens. The worst thing about that 12 toss number is it's missing the likes of InCa and Tester... Really, the only toss I think that has a chance to go far is MC and Genius... and they're known to be rather fragile (MC aka suicide toss, Genius DAVIT'ed)
I know. QQ
And I think Huk was the only TL not to make it in. I wasn't really expecting him to go that far but still, the only TL protoss hero to try to qualify.
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On November 17 2010 02:59 ZerOfy wrote:
I suppose that list reflects the Starcraft universe, with 'toss having the fewest numbers. :p
Lol i was thinking the same thing. if you see from the blizzard protoss overview video, it is said they are small in numbers but boy do they pack a punch.
But yet i got the same feeling as Canucks that the ones left are not the Colossi and Carriers ( Inca,Tester, Sangho) but the zealots and stalkers.
Here is hoping a DT can prove me wrong and sneak victories against all odds.
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Or a mothership should come and mass recall back the time before the roach buff.
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On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine...
The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple.
Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else.
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On November 17 2010 03:10 slam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:04 CanucksJC wrote:On November 17 2010 02:57 slam wrote:
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but here are the results from GSL Season 3 qualifiers:
Zerg:
27
Terran:
24
Protoss:
12
Random:
1
Looks like we're gonna have another season without much protoss representation... but hey, we'll see what happens. The worst thing about that 12 toss number is it's missing the likes of InCa and Tester... Really, the only toss I think that has a chance to go far is MC and Genius... and they're known to be rather fragile (MC aka suicide toss, Genius DAVIT'ed) I know. QQ And I think Huk was the only TL not to make it in. I wasn't really expecting him to go that far but still, the only TL protoss hero to try to qualify.
It sounds like it was close. I do question the usefullness of collosus on scrap station though. That choke point is a death trap for collosus. Maybe making air units that counter vikings would be a good idea. What protoss air unit is good against vikings?
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Pheonix v Viking is a pretty even battle I think.
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On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else.
I actually am sure the hype comes from watching play in King of The Beta where he went undefeated in his group beating (idra,tlo,huk if i'm not wrong) as well as his play in the TL Altitude. He was an absolute beast and he is certainly not Clide of whom we knew nothing of and was overhyped by Tastosis.
I am not saying he can't have a bad day two times and got knocked out because no one is too good to be guaranteed a qualification. I am saying that i disagree that he was only hype
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On November 17 2010 03:16 ZerOfy wrote:
Pheonix v Viking is a pretty even battle I think.
Phoenix is pretty even with vikings if you just attack move them against each other, but in an actual game the range vikings has makes them the superior unit by far imo since they can kill shit while hovering above their marine ball while the phoenix's has to fly up to them and die to marines.
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On November 17 2010 03:12 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:59 ZerOfy wrote:
I suppose that list reflects the Starcraft universe, with 'toss having the fewest numbers. :p Lol i was thinking the same thing. if you see from the blizzard protoss overview video, it is said they are small in numbers but boy do they pack a punch. But yet i got the same feeling as Canucks that the ones left are not the Colossi and Carriers ( Inca,Tester, Sangho) but the zealots and stalkers. Here is hoping a DT can prove me wrong and sneak victories against all odds.
Love the analogy there =)
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On November 17 2010 03:22 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:16 ZerOfy wrote:
Pheonix v Viking is a pretty even battle I think. Phoenix is pretty even with vikings if you just attack move them against each other, but in an actual game the range vikings has makes them the superior unit by far imo since they can kill shit while hovering above their marine ball while the phoenix's has to fly up to them and die to marines.
Yeah, I was thinking in terms of 1v1. But as you say vikings are much more useful overall and counter collosus so effectively.
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On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about Tester, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also a lot of those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns.
There are some older zerg players who couldnt get a pro licence who qualified so thats not a very good argument. This is a different game and the qualifiers are a bit of a lottery as to who you are drawn with and as said before its more to do with scrap station being the decider map than anything. Top level players of all races have failed to qualify in the 3 GSLs. Sangho was an A teamer, Julyzerg failed to qualify for GSL 2 and NaDa has failed for GSL 3.
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I feel like protoss just lacks options. They are sort of in the position zerg was, but just a bit less so. They seem to have a lot of potential in carriers and warp prisms, but no one can seem to find a viable way to use them outside of cheese builds. I think if the build time on those two units was lowered by a smidge, like 20% that might be enough to gradually tip the balance back in the protoss's favor. I say this as a zerg who is only afraid of collosus and surprise DT's. They need more ways to come at me.
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On November 17 2010 03:16 ZerOfy wrote:
Pheonix v Viking is a pretty even battle I think.
Ok so, let's pretend we make a robo bay to pretend like we are going mass collosus. Say the terran makes a starport (with reactor) and 4 vikings. That is
150/100 + 4 x (150/75) = 750/400.
For protoss, let's say we go double stargate to match production output.
300/300 + 4 x (150/100) = 900/700.
Which is too expensive so how bout 1 stargate + 4 chrono boosts
150/150 + 4 x (150/100) = 750/550.
Why do phoenix cost so much gas?
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Well let's start with what we know. There's only 2 variables which could affect the stats that much.
1) Not as many good players playing Protoss.
2) Protoss is slightly underpowered.
Looking at the matchups I can always see opportunities for Protoss to win. Whenever a Protoss loses you can point to mistakes and see where he went wrong. But does Protoss have to slightly outplay his opponent to win?
Let's look at TvP.
Because SCVs do so well against Stalkers/Sentries a Terran can hold off a Protoss with a better army and even if you lose SCVs Mules can help Terran catch-up. This means Terran can be less exact with his expansion timings, he can expand earlier and not worry so much about dieing because Protoss needs a significantly larger army to be able to kill him.
Whilst if Protoss expands at the wrong time he dies very easily. Once probes are pulled even against a small injured group of T units it's GG.
Add in the additional Terran utility; easily accesable drops, planetary fortress and you could see it being slightly more difficult for Protoss (but still very winnable).
And then in PvZ the Protoss must be the aggressor (the same as TvZ). The defensive style is often easier to play. For protoss players to do damage they have to be extremely good with their timing attacks and this is very tricky.
But also it is possibly true that Protoss doesn't attract as many top tier players.
This is a throwback to BW in many ways. All the Bonjwas are T or Z.
TvZ has always been the "flagship" matchup in Starcraft.
Solutions? Well I think the best way would be to introduce more interesting things to try to improve Protoss utility somewhat.
Warp Prisms aren't seeing enough use, for example. They could use a buff of somekind. Perhaps even another spell? The ability to heal shields or recharge energy perhaps.
I could invent a whole bunch of cool stuff but I'll leave that to Blizzard xD
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On November 17 2010 03:25 darmousseh wrote:
Why do phoenix cost so much gas?
Ask David Kim? 
I didn't balance the game.
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On November 17 2010 02:57 slam wrote:
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but here are the results from GSL Season 3 qualifiers:
Zerg:
27
Terran:
24
Protoss:
12
Random:
1
Looks like we're gonna have another season without much protoss representation... but hey, we'll see what happens.
well, the best part about this showing is that blizzard will take notice of it...
it's very different to say "only 12/64 qualified for GSL" as opposed to "QQ protoss isn't in RO4 again"
because this isn't seeded, there can be games played at as high a level as Finals matches in the RO64 or RO32-- ie. fruitdealer vs. foxer (did anyone else notice that if NesTea had fought Foxer in RO64, 32, or 16, he would have been knocked out 0-2?)
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I wrote a lot of stuff but after checking the name of important players that didnt qualify I found just 3 that would do great in gsl3 actually ...
So i guess protoss does need a reboot and more players playing it too ... maybe with a full reboot they will conquer more followers
On November 17 2010 03:30 jaeds wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:57 slam wrote:
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but here are the results from GSL Season 3 qualifiers:
Zerg:
27
Terran:
24
Protoss:
12
Random:
1
Looks like we're gonna have another season without much protoss representation... but hey, we'll see what happens. well, the best part about this showing is that blizzard will take notice of it... it's very different to say "only 12/64 qualified for GSL" as opposed to "QQ protoss isn't in RO4 again" because this isn't seeded, there can be games played at as high a level as Finals matches in the RO64 or RO32-- ie. fruitdealer vs. foxer (did anyone else notice that if NesTea had fought Foxer in RO64, 32, or 16, he would have been knocked out 0-2?)
I do agree, if nestea hadnt trained against foxer style, he would be pretty much dead. He even thanked mvp for the training ...
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I guess Vikings in patch 1 back in the beta had the following change.
The damage done in Fighter Mode was changed from 6 (+8 armored) to 10 (+4 armored)
Imagine if this was reverted. Suddenly phoenix would do great against vikings while still being able to hard counter void rays and carriers.
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On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else.
Naw, the hype from Tester came from watching the man play.
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EPT
