EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 96
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DCat
United States39 Posts
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Severus_
759 Posts
1.cheesy - Kiwikaki,Nazgul,Tyler 2.standard playing - Socke and the other euro guys I'm not saying this guys are bad overall just not good as the other pros.The other reason i think toss is failing because toss is the easiest race to be good at and no one is thinking outside the box.For tosses there is no one to make the builds to make the highlights and make people say "oh i want to be like that guy" and encourage people to think of new builds and new strats...anyway that is only my opinion and i hope more tosses to qualify for the next GSL. | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
Protoss is too easy to play. As said before, that's main problem. If they buff protoss a lot, the lower leagues will be totally unplayable due to protoss domination, while the top will be balanced. But if they leave it where it is at currently, then they can just start GSL tournaments with 2 races as well. The third one is going to be an imaginary contender. | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:44 Severus_ wrote: I think tosses are doing bad in GSL because there is no one good compere to other guys.Zerg has Idra,FD,Dimaga,Ret some other epic Koreans.Terran has Optimus,BoxeR,NaDa,SeleCT,Jinro,Loner and what does protoss has? NEXGenius,WhiteRa and some #14~60 ladder players who ether are 1.cheesy - Kiwikaki,Nazgul,Tyler 2.standard playing - Socke and the other euro guys I'm not saying this guys are bad overall just not good as the other pros.The other reason i think toss is failing because toss is the easiest race to be good at and no one is thinking outside the box.For tosses there is no one to make the builds to make the highlights and make people say "oh i want to be like that guy" and encourage people to think of new builds and new strats...anyway that is only my opinion and i hope more tosses to qualify for the next GSL. This post is just... so wrong.. You call SeleCT a good player and yet NonY is better than him in a macro game. You call people cheesy. Define cheese. I can guess ur definition: anything that doesn't involve robo. There is absolutely no base by saying that there is no good protoss player. It is like when zergs were bad. Everybody says the EXACT same thing until FD wins GSL1. If ur theory doesn't apply back then, do u think it applies right now? Try to think before you post. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:44 Severus_ wrote: I think tosses are doing bad in GSL because there is no one good compere to other guys.Zerg has Idra,FD,Dimaga,Ret some other epic Koreans.Terran has Optimus,BoxeR,NaDa,SeleCT,Jinro,Loner and what does protoss has? NEXGenius,WhiteRa and some #14~60 ladder players who ether are 1.cheesy - Kiwikaki,Nazgul,Tyler 2.standard playing - Socke and the other euro guys I'm not saying this guys are bad overall just not good as the other pros.The other reason i think toss is failing because toss is the easiest race to be good at and no one is thinking outside the box.For tosses there is no one to make the builds to make the highlights and make people say "oh i want to be like that guy" and encourage people to think of new builds and new strats...anyway that is only my opinion and i hope more tosses to qualify for the next GSL. Those 10 people you listed can eliminate 10 protoss at the most. Again before you use the "Protoss doesn't do well because it doesn't have good players", please think about "why isn't the Protoss race attracting good players to it" Protoss is too easy to play. As said before, that's main problem. If they buff protoss a lot, the lower leagues will be totally unplayable due to protoss domination, while the top will be balanced. But if they leave it where it is at currently, then they can just start GSL tournaments with 2 races as well. The third one is going to be an imaginary contender. Which is why I think Warpgate needs fundamental change because this is the choke we're having at the moment: 4 Warpgate being too effective against people that don't know how to stop it effectively, and Blizzard needing to keep tier 1 Gateway units bad relatively to compensate for that. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34498 Posts
- 1 observer - sometimes a shuttle + a few reavers - pump out observers This meant it was easier for Protoss to have map control while they tech'd to templar. What about now? - 1 observer - none/a few immortals - pump out collosi for the rest of the game, as teching to HT's is too risky Voila, you've lost your 'standard' means of map control. | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:44 Severus_ wrote: I think tosses are doing bad in GSL because there is no one good compere to other guys.Zerg has Idra,FD,Dimaga,Ret some other epic Koreans.Terran has Optimus,BoxeR,NaDa,SeleCT,Jinro,Loner and what does protoss has? NEXGenius,WhiteRa and some #14~60 ladder players who ether are 1.cheesy - Kiwikaki,Nazgul,Tyler 2.standard playing - Socke and the other euro guys I'm not saying this guys are bad overall just not good as the other pros.The other reason i think toss is failing because toss is the easiest race to be good at and no one is thinking outside the box.For tosses there is no one to make the builds to make the highlights and make people say "oh i want to be like that guy" and encourage people to think of new builds and new strats...anyway that is only my opinion and i hope more tosses to qualify for the next GSL. Oh please, you can't be serious? The most played race in the entire world can only contribute 18-19% to GSL3? It's not about even top 3-4 at the moment, it's just protoss are having hard time to qualify at the moment, let alone make a go at winning the tournament. And those players you mentioned, Loner, Jinro, SeleCT etc... No offense, but if Protoss was strong, we would be able to count as many good players. You cannot seriously say these guys are any better than Tester, Sangho and Inca, can you? The zergs you mentioned are the similar line up. There's no Jaedong among them to say "oh it's not race, it's the player". All good players, nothing close to bonjwa. Protoss has plenty of those. But these good players will not overcome race imbalances when the skills are equivalent. FD did, but he had lady luck and some huge mistakes on his opponents parts. I don't think FD will win any tournament any more, BTW. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:44 Severus_ wrote: I think tosses are doing bad in GSL because there is no one good compere to other guys.Zerg has Idra,FD,Dimaga,Ret some other epic Koreans.Terran has Optimus,BoxeR,NaDa,SeleCT,Jinro,Loner and what does protoss has? NEXGenius,WhiteRa and some #14~60 ladder players who ether are 1.cheesy - Kiwikaki,Nazgul,Tyler 2.standard playing - Socke and the other euro guys I'm not saying this guys are bad overall just not good as the other pros.The other reason i think toss is failing because toss is the easiest race to be good at and no one is thinking outside the box.For tosses there is no one to make the builds to make the highlights and make people say "oh i want to be like that guy" and encourage people to think of new builds and new strats...anyway that is only my opinion and i hope more tosses to qualify for the next GSL. I ask you then, what makes a good player good? Is it what they win? What makes Foxer or Nestea good players? Surely they weren't that known before. If that would be the case, buff Protoss and Zerg and you'd see a lot more good players appear. Then i'd say "you see, Terran has no good players, they all lose to Protoss and Zerg pros." | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:51 Firebolt145 wrote: In BW, you use your Robotics Facility to get the following: - 1 observer - sometimes a shuttle + a few reavers - pump out observers This meant it was easier for Protoss to have map control while they tech'd to templar. What about now? - 1 observer - none/a few immortals - pump out collosi for the rest of the game, as teching to HT's is too risky Voila, you've lost your 'standard' means of map control. Because gateway units were viable in BW. They no longer are. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:51 Firebolt145 wrote: In BW, you use your Robotics Facility to get the following: - 1 observer - sometimes a shuttle + a few reavers - pump out observers This meant it was easier for Protoss to have map control while they tech'd to templar. What about now? - 1 observer - none/a few immortals - pump out collosi for the rest of the game, as teching to HT's is too risky Voila, you've lost your 'standard' means of map control. And guess who was the dominant race in the early game in BW. Yes right, Dragoons made you save. This is SC2, there are Marauders (and no Dragoons  ) which don't let you controle the map so easily | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:55 CruelZeratul wrote: And guess who was the dominant race in the early game in BW. Yes right, Dragoons made you save. This is SC2, there are Marauders (and no Dragoons ) which don't let you controle the map so easilyOh and also, on top of the dragoon-like damage, they also manage to get stim and concussive shell! | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:53 Apolo wrote: I ask you then, what makes a good player good? Is it what they win? What makes Foxer or Nestea good players? Surely they weren't that known before. If that would be the case, buff Protoss and Zerg and you'd see a lot more good players appear. Then i'd say "you see, Terran has no good players, they all lose to Protoss and Zerg pros." it's especially funny because socke, nazgul, tyler, are all known as very awesome sc1 players | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:43 david0925 wrote: KDCC's FE against Terran has been out there since what, August? And many, many Protoss players have been using it to great success. Forge Fast Expand and 15 Nexus has also existed for a decent amount of time against Zerg, but both became risky if the Zerg decide to put pressure (note: not all-in to kill you) on you with Roaches because you can no longer effectively wall in on most maps with cannons against the buffed range of Roaches. Fast expansions have been valid tactics for a really long time (in relation to this game) and have not been "new creative" tactics. It's just that 4gate is so much easier to play with and can beat people that aren't good at balancing between making enough units to defend while expanding (like myself) Yes forge fast expands go back deep into Beta but as you say are much more risky now due to the forge build time changes/nerf to forge health done in Beta because koreans were using them to cannon rush and now recently Roach range buff/zealot nerf. | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:44 Severus_ wrote: I think tosses are doing bad in GSL because there is no one good compere to other guys.Zerg has Idra,FD,Dimaga,Ret some other epic Koreans.Terran has Optimus,BoxeR,NaDa,SeleCT,Jinro,Loner and what does protoss has? NEXGenius,WhiteRa and some #14~60 ladder players who ether are 1.cheesy - Kiwikaki,Nazgul,Tyler 2.standard playing - Socke and the other euro guys I'm not saying this guys are bad overall just not good as the other pros.The other reason i think toss is failing because toss is the easiest race to be good at and no one is thinking outside the box.For tosses there is no one to make the builds to make the highlights and make people say "oh i want to be like that guy" and encourage people to think of new builds and new strats...anyway that is only my opinion and i hope more tosses to qualify for the next GSL. 1. NaDa, Select, and Loner couldnt qualify this time round either so are they bad now too? 2. Pretty much every build protoss does and unit produced is described as cheese nowadays. I blame Tastosis party for this. If you think the an entire planet of people playing protoss arent working on builds as much as the other 2 races then you are wrong. Its because the race has been slowly nerfed away from other strategies that used to be used. Edit also Jinro was put into the oGs/TL B team prior to MLG Dallas it certainly seems to have made a big difference in him. | ||
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Jcuervo
United States52 Posts
Anyways, Pikachu won and she plays Protoss. So let's summon our inner kiwikaki and come up with creative builds. | ||
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blind eagle
1 Post
I reckon a big issue is the limited options a toss players has, particularly when facing terran. I keep hearing people say the gateway units are poor in low numbers and that bio is good in low numbers. What i think may be happening hear is people are misunderstanding people like day9. I've often heard day9 say terran should trade armies with protoss because protoss armys work best when they reach a critical mass. By which he means having enough core units to support the power units effectivly, when you have very few gateway units and collosus or ht its very easy to just move up and take them out before they can deal significant dmg. Try engaging a bioball even without medivacs with stalker zealot sentry, core units vs core units. What happens is the terran stims and moves away from your zealots picking them off before any damage can be done by them. Then its stalkers vs marine marauder with stim. So in large numbers gateway units do not do so well, they need to be supporting power units, perfect ffs can win you these engagements if there are no medivacs but there usually are and so the terran doesn't have to be shy with stim, meaning avoiding ffs and wasteing sentry energy is pretty easy. Throw in a ghost or two for emp and you don't have to worry about ffs at all. The zealots just start becoming ineffective in large numbers as they just trip over one another failing to land good hits, if the zealots could get in amonst the bio more effectivly and actually deal some damage it'd be fine but its so hard to get the bio into a postion where it can't just scoot and shoot. This basically forces toss to tech either templar or collosus fairly early because even upgraded gateway units just can't stand up to bio with stim. Forcing toss to tech to survive into mid game prevents us from playing a macro game. Not to mention that with gateway units as weak as they are drops are very hard to deal with. As splitting too much of your force away is not an option. Making 2 base play even more essential so you can easily defend. I have tried being aggressive and constantly tradeing armies with the terran to keep his force small while i macro, which keeps the zealot stalker sentry mix effective as i expand and macro up, but the terran can just bunker up and make this impossible. The biggest problem here is i feel gateway units are balanced vs terran before stim and also balanced vs zerg. This means buffing the gateway units by giving them more dmg or something like that would not work. I think a change to the charge ability of the zealot could be a possible way to help this problem. Make it so that the zealot busts through the bio and gets in amongst it rather than just running around uslessly infront of it, the thing i think is great about this change is you have to be careful with it. Your zealots could end up charging into a ling surround instead fighting them like they would now or charge into a bio blob to find themselves unable to retreat and get slaughtered. The only other suggestion i've seen that might help is to make teching easier for toss but i feel this would be overpowered. Towards zerg i feel the only problem is roaches, they just seem to be too effective for their cost. The great thing about zerg is how unpredicable they can be with army composition. You can barely hold off 20 mutas and be all geared up for combating that and suddenly find something completely differant. This in itself is fine but it just seems to me when the guy has been going ling muta for 10 minutes and then out of nowhere comes a ridiculus amount of roaches at your front its a bit much to deal with. I reckon increasing the roach cost is gonna help balance all matchups including z v z(which might sound odd, but the matchup really does seem unstable. I mean more so than it was before the roach changes) I think the charge change is such a small thing that would make so much differance. Making gateway units more effective in the mid game will allow protoss to do so much more, without making warp gate pushes or zealot pushes any more powerful in the early game. One more thing i think would be good, the void prism should just come with the speed you have to upgrade it for, this unit is paper thin and slow, makes moving anything in it a huge risk possibly counter its speed by making it take a longer amount of time to switch between transport and power mode possibly having reducing this as an upgrade. However i don't see anything wrong with protoss being a big brute force race that exeles at frontal assaults with limited ability for harassment. Races having differant strengths and weaknesses is a good thing that makes them suited to differant play styles. Anyway you asked for specifics so don't be complaining about the essay. | ||
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Severus_
759 Posts
like 6pool,4warpgate,3gate blink,2port banshee You guys say that Zerg was UP before some patches it because people back then didn't know how to safe expand and after that players like Idra,FD thought "oh htf i am gonna keep my expo from dying guess i have to change my build" and nowadays every Z fast expands and know how to defend because ppl copy their builds and that is why other races are QQing about that.The game now pretty balanced imo there are only some small issues that need fixing but most of the time THE BETTER player wins the game.Remember when Zerg was bling busting or 1 basing and stuff and terran was like "oh crap how i am gonna beat that" then TLO comes and makes the 1/1/1 build and everything is in a whole new level after that zergs like Sen "invented" the magic box and so on....You see the evolving I don't see that in the toss players.That is what i am saying my English is kinda poor so maybe i didn't explain it correct. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34498 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:54 H0i wrote: Because gateway units were viable in BW. They no longer are. Perhaps, I'm not insinuating anything except about how Protoss have lost their main 'maphacklol' ability. | ||
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Jacobs Ladder
United States1705 Posts
On November 17 2010 02:15 Severus_ wrote: Definition of cheese: attack that wins the game or loses the game or an attack that has no follow up. like 6pool,4warpgate,3gate blink,2port banshee That's an All-In, not cheese. Also, 4 gate, 3 gate, Banshee and Blink CAN all have follow through. There's a difference between a 4 gate All-In and a 4 gate expo, for example. Cheese is something that, if scouted, isn't good. Such as 6 pool, proxy buildings, and cannon rushes. | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:53 Apolo wrote: I ask you then, what makes a good player good? Is it what they win? What makes Foxer or Nestea good players? Surely they weren't that known before. If that would be the case, buff Protoss and Zerg and you'd see a lot more good players appear. Then i'd say "you see, Terran has no good players, they all lose to Protoss and Zerg pros." I think this is also a big indicator of imbalance. When Zerg was doing worse you only had a few Zerg players and everyone was saying there were just less good Z players. Despite a large % (35 or so?) of Protoss players there aren't many "good" players. Either all the good players have chosen T or Z because P is weak, or the top P players are just good and the good players are mediocre due to imbalance. I think you see a similar thing in the opposite direction with Zerg now having a bunch of good players we didn't know before the buffs. | ||
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