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Sorry but Zerg hit 80.3% once - Protoss even fails at producing the most QQ
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if all the protoss want a constructive debate, they have to identify clearly what is going wrong with the race atm in the 2 match up. So i think the real problem is in the mid game and how to get there safely and maybe some map design pool (natural expo in xelnaga cavern is hard to secure without losing an edge against a zerg for example, lost temple is fine with the choke,etc.).
And i wonder why high lvl protoss don't talk about balance issues and don't write articles, we need them to exactly know if there is a problem about the race atm.
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Now, I don't know if this would be OP or not, but I think some of these changes could really fix protoss: (Not all, that would be OP as fuck. Like, one or two.):
-Hallucinate observers to let us go down other tech paths.
-Revert void-ray nerf, or at least change them to fight armored air better. {So PvP isnt war of the worlds}
-Get rid of the pheonixes' shoot-while-flying and give them a straight damage buff?
-Re-adjust archons to be more useful
-Perhaps have DTs/HTs on the same structure, although this sounds a bit drastic. Perhaps reduce Shrine build time, or have discounted Templar buildings if you already have one up. (IE: If you have HTs up, the Dark Shrine is cheaper.)
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On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote:On November 16 2010 23:39 dtz wrote:On November 16 2010 22:42 Cade wrote:
There is also just a lower number of good Protoss players. Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. I don't know why you think Inca , Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing. Sure in diamond they do that, but GSL people? who are sponsored and have teams + coaches ?? Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway)
Its a problem of immobility in combiantion with units that tend to be weak in low numbers, imo. Until Templar are available its hard to cover a lot of space.
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On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote:On November 16 2010 23:39 dtz wrote:On November 16 2010 22:42 Cade wrote:
There is also just a lower number of good Protoss players. Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. I don't know why you think Inca , Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing. Sure in diamond they do that, but GSL people? who are sponsored and have teams + coaches ?? Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct.
Actually, I think use of the words "cheesy 2base strategies" here is ridiculous. It is a growing trend amongst players to call any attack which occurs before they are ready to defend it a "cheese" or "all-in". A cheese is a strategy that has no viable transition afterwards which is counterable if scouted. From liquipedia:
"A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack. A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage. "
A 2-base build sitting on ~50 probes is clearly fits neither aspect of that description.
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Increase Zealot movement speed to 2.5, make legs give 3.0. This at least let them have a chance against 3.4 stimmed Terran Infantry and 3.0 Roaches without getting demolished. Stalkers need to do more damage against armored with upgrades. Scaling +1 per upgrade with 1.44 speed is pitiful.
Decrease immortal build time and cost, lower armor damage bonus to maybe 35, and either make them move faster OR have range of 6 to match stalkers. At the moment they are probably one of the stupidest (AI wise) unit in the game except for maybe Thors.
Major tweak on Warpgate so we can make Tier 1 Gateway more useful without making 4 Warpgate/cheese ridiculous. Maybe give Pylons a secondary attribute (red power zone) so that it must stand for a certain amount of time (say 30 seconds after building completion) or within the proximity of another building (say 30 range to the nearest building that also must be 30 range to the nearest eventually working its way to a single nexus) before you can warp units into it.
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On November 17 2010 01:00 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote:On November 16 2010 23:39 dtz wrote:On November 16 2010 22:42 Cade wrote:
There is also just a lower number of good Protoss players. Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. I don't know why you think Inca , Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing. Sure in diamond they do that, but GSL people? who are sponsored and have teams + coaches ?? Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct. Actually, I think use of the words "cheesy 2base strategies" here is ridiculous. It is a growing trend amongst players to call any attack which occurs before they are ready to defend it a "cheese" or "all-in". A cheese is a strategy that has no viable transition afterwards which is counterable if scouted. From liquipedia: "A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack. A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage. " A 2-base build sitting on ~50 probes is clearly fits neither aspect of that description.
Perhaps I should have used a different word then, such as 2-base all-in. Whatever you want to call it, a lot of P's fast expand then sit on 2 base and mass up for one big attack, go for it, kill their opponent a high percentage of the time, and lose the rest of the time.
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P has no choice but to do all-in attacks, because every P attack is all-in.
You can't retreat with 2.25 speed units. Your units are cost-ineffective and only good when combined together, so you can't easily remacro if you lose your attack. The push has to either work, or not really engage - lose an army as P and it's game over.
Unless you have ht, then just warp some more and keep partying.
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Sorry, double post. (other post below)
(delete...)
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And plz don't take your games to talk about balance, pick pro games. If something is wrong with the balance, high lvl play is way better to back up your words.
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On November 17 2010 01:04 Cade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:00 Treehead wrote:On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote:On November 16 2010 23:39 dtz wrote:On November 16 2010 22:42 Cade wrote:
There is also just a lower number of good Protoss players. Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. I don't know why you think Inca , Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing. Sure in diamond they do that, but GSL people? who are sponsored and have teams + coaches ?? Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct. Actually, I think use of the words "cheesy 2base strategies" here is ridiculous. It is a growing trend amongst players to call any attack which occurs before they are ready to defend it a "cheese" or "all-in". A cheese is a strategy that has no viable transition afterwards which is counterable if scouted. From liquipedia: "A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack. A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage. " A 2-base build sitting on ~50 probes is clearly fits neither aspect of that description. Perhaps I should have used a different word then, such as 2-base all-in. Whatever you want to call it, a lot of P's fast expand then sit on 2 base and mass up for one big attack, go for it, kill their opponent a high percentage of the time, and lose the rest of the time.
Are.....are you serious? This leaves a HUGE window for a timing attack that you probably don't see down in silver.
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On November 17 2010 01:04 Cade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:00 Treehead wrote:On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote:On November 16 2010 23:39 dtz wrote:On November 16 2010 22:42 Cade wrote:
There is also just a lower number of good Protoss players. Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. I don't know why you think Inca , Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing. Sure in diamond they do that, but GSL people? who are sponsored and have teams + coaches ?? Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct. Actually, I think use of the words "cheesy 2base strategies" here is ridiculous. It is a growing trend amongst players to call any attack which occurs before they are ready to defend it a "cheese" or "all-in". A cheese is a strategy that has no viable transition afterwards which is counterable if scouted. From liquipedia: "A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack. A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage. " A 2-base build sitting on ~50 probes is clearly fits neither aspect of that description. Perhaps I should have used a different word then, such as 2-base all-in. Whatever you want to call it, a lot of P's fast expand then sit on 2 base and mass up for one big attack, go for it, kill their opponent a high percentage of the time, and lose the rest of the time.
Because they have no choice. There is no other 'normal' way to win. - Doing something like that gives you the biggest chance. 1 or 2 base all in.
That and, you can't retreat without losing a ridiculous amount of units.
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On November 17 2010 00:51 LostDevil wrote:
I played protoss in broodwar for many many years but in SC2 i chose zerg. Sometimes I fool around with protoss (my first love) and can beat the same level diamond zergs that I am at. I'm not saying that to mean the game is balanced, just to say im not borderline retarded with them.
That being said, the biggest issue with protoss is the lack of harass in my opinion. Gate -> Robo play is just blah every game. In broodwar there were quick reaver drops, templar drops, dt drops, speed shuttles flying around every which way and zealot / dt bombs exploding terrans tank lines. Just look at Bisu's style of play in broodwar that is so harassment heavy. That would not be possible in SC2. Protoss desperately need a few new units in the expansion to complete the feel of the race and give players more tools at their disposal.
As zerg I usually have 180+ apm in long games (apm not adjusted for sc2 time). With protoss I average around 140 in longer games simply because I feel like there is not enough to do. One poster mentioned how protoss needs to be made harder to play and encourage a higher skill cap. I agree with this. This, along with the need for a couple more creative units should allow protoss players to play that ridiculously cool looking race to a higher overall potential and bring much more entertaining games.
YES, this si exactly why, we have literally no real viable harassment unit and going into warp prism/HT drop or warp prism/DT drop is just TOO much commitment that makes it not viable, not to mention the speed upgrade costs a ton and is almost required for the prism. Give us reavers and i'll stop crying.
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On November 17 2010 01:07 Demarini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:04 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 01:00 Treehead wrote:On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote:On November 16 2010 23:39 dtz wrote:
[quote]
I don't know why you think Inca , Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing.
Sure in diamond they do that, but GSL people? who are sponsored and have teams + coaches ??
Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct. Actually, I think use of the words "cheesy 2base strategies" here is ridiculous. It is a growing trend amongst players to call any attack which occurs before they are ready to defend it a "cheese" or "all-in". A cheese is a strategy that has no viable transition afterwards which is counterable if scouted. From liquipedia: "A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack. A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage. " A 2-base build sitting on ~50 probes is clearly fits neither aspect of that description. Perhaps I should have used a different word then, such as 2-base all-in. Whatever you want to call it, a lot of P's fast expand then sit on 2 base and mass up for one big attack, go for it, kill their opponent a high percentage of the time, and lose the rest of the time. Are.....are you serious? This leaves a HUGE window for a timing attack that you probably don't see down in silver.
I LOL'd!! You are so adorable!
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If protoss does this poorly in the next 2-3 GSL I might begin to believe some of this imbalance talk.
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On November 17 2010 01:11 Cade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:07 Demarini wrote:On November 17 2010 01:04 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 01:00 Treehead wrote:On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote:
[quote]
Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct. Actually, I think use of the words "cheesy 2base strategies" here is ridiculous. It is a growing trend amongst players to call any attack which occurs before they are ready to defend it a "cheese" or "all-in". A cheese is a strategy that has no viable transition afterwards which is counterable if scouted. From liquipedia: "A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack. A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage. " A 2-base build sitting on ~50 probes is clearly fits neither aspect of that description. Perhaps I should have used a different word then, such as 2-base all-in. Whatever you want to call it, a lot of P's fast expand then sit on 2 base and mass up for one big attack, go for it, kill their opponent a high percentage of the time, and lose the rest of the time. Are.....are you serious? This leaves a HUGE window for a timing attack that you probably don't see down in silver. I LOL'd!! You are so adorable!
And he resorts to sarcasm. Addaboy.
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On November 17 2010 00:56 Samhax wrote:
if all the protoss want a constructive debate, they have to identify clearly what is going wrong with the race atm in the 2 match up. So i think the real problem is in the mid game and how to get there safely and maybe some map design pool (natural expo in xelnaga cavern is hard to secure without losing an edge against a zerg for example, lost temple is fine with the choke,etc.).
And i wonder why high lvl protoss don't talk about balance issues and don't write articles, we need them to exactly know if there is a problem about the race atm.
This seems like what a lot of people have done.
It's been brought up several times that protoss' problems are:
1. The need for detection (everyone needs an early robo).
2. That gateway units cease to be effective in the midgame (against large MM forces and midgame hydra/roach or muta play).
The second point is definitely not set in stone (it can be argued, of course, that chargelots and blink stalkers are *quite* effective, given the right style of play), but I think most at this point agree that #1 is the main problem.
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On November 17 2010 01:13 Demarini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 01:11 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 01:07 Demarini wrote:On November 17 2010 01:04 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 01:00 Treehead wrote:On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote:On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote:On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote:
[quote]
Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond.
I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000).
If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct. Actually, I think use of the words "cheesy 2base strategies" here is ridiculous. It is a growing trend amongst players to call any attack which occurs before they are ready to defend it a "cheese" or "all-in". A cheese is a strategy that has no viable transition afterwards which is counterable if scouted. From liquipedia: "A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack. A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage. " A 2-base build sitting on ~50 probes is clearly fits neither aspect of that description. Perhaps I should have used a different word then, such as 2-base all-in. Whatever you want to call it, a lot of P's fast expand then sit on 2 base and mass up for one big attack, go for it, kill their opponent a high percentage of the time, and lose the rest of the time. Are.....are you serious? This leaves a HUGE window for a timing attack that you probably don't see down in silver. I LOL'd!! You are so adorable! And he resorts to sarcasm. Addaboy.
Sarcasm? No I was completely serious, He is cute as a button =D
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to many people make big giant robots. Day9 has said this is a problem for Protoss because they rush for the GIant robot and then can't make other core units because of minerals. Fast expanding every 4 to 5 minutes works with Protoss yet nobody takes advantage of it. day9 showed how it could be done last night.
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In fact I just realize how cute this entire thread is. So many newb posters in here it's like a nursery full of chubby toddlers! I just want to pinch those cheeks!!
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EPT
