EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 92
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Punkstar
Slovakia522 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
Even when on its knees, a Terran can easily come back thanks to those mules, and the ability to lift his command centers and move them to another expand on the map. Zergs have cheap hatcheries, and can drone up in an instant. In comparison, if a Protoss loses too many probes, there's no way to quickly come back. Probes have to be rebuilt one at a time ( unlike zergs ). IMO harassing Protoss eco is far too easy for Terrans ( who can easily drop or banshee harass ) and for Zergs ( speedlings, mutas ). Cannons won't do the trick unless in enormous amounts, which means you're contained in your bases since you'll have a smaller army; and an army without cannons won't do the trick since as soon as you try to move out, you get harassed again. Phoenix are the only units that are semi-effective for harassing, but only if you take your opponent by surprise. Once turrets / spores are up, you can't harass anymore. DTs are pretty good for harassing too, but they rely on surprise AND require so much teching/costs that if you don't do major damage with them, it's gg. And again, Terrans can scan or place turrets, while Zergs will usually have a lair and morph an overseer by the time you can have DTs. In other words, I believe the real problem is that the Protoss economy can so easily be harassed by other races, while the Protoss has no easy way to retaliate. | ||
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McMonty
Canada379 Posts
"Toss isnt underpowered. Look at the sc2ranks statistics:http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all. More diamond tosses than anything else." Here is the thing though. Most players who play starcraft suck at it. When it comes down to differentiating players at mid and low skill levels, balance often times has nothing to do with it. Its all about who is more skilled. The fact that there are so many Protoss at the diamond level simply means that there are more skilled people using protoss(if you want to call diamond skilled). I think there are so many "skilled" Toss players because of the low skill requirement. I am a P player myself, but I consistently play Toss with 5apm lower than Terran, and 10-15 apm lower than zerg. So its easier for people to get "good" with protoss due to fewer mechanics. So there are more diamond Protoss because its easier to pick up. But what happens to all of these people once they get to diamond? Ultimately, your skill level takes you as far as you can, but the best place to look for balance issues is the place where people play the game near optimally(at the pro level). In the first GSL, the game was still new so players were not playing the game "optimally" A lot of protoss qualified probably because they picked up protoss well, and despite being near the skill cap, most T and Z players were not. But these protoss didnt go too far(none into the semis), probably beacuse the best Z and T players had passed the P skill cap level. In the second GSL, fewer toss made it through, and those that did didnt advance as far because more T anz Z players were pas the P cap (only one in the RO8 i think). As more players are hitting the skill cap with Protoss, and the Terran and Zerg players are still improving due to more difficult mechanics, the balance issues are becoming more obvious. Now at the GSL3, when lots of players have hit the skill cap for protoss, and zerg and terran have further improved, we have less than half the P players compared to T and Z(12 vs 24 and 27). Just look at the evolution of Protoss play at high level compared with T and Z. There are almost no new Protoss builds. Blink stalkers? that was used in the beta. Terran and Zerg have evolved a lot more in the metagame than Protoss has because protoss has nowhere to evolve to. They need to buff protoss at high level play, but only do so through a difficult mechanic(similar to marines for example), and at the same time nerf some of the "easy to use" but potentially devastating options for Protoss like collosos (any noob can get collosus and win. but pros can consistently counter them now) TL;DR Protoss has a low skill cap which makes it easier to learn so many people are "good". But at high level when the game is played near optimally, protoss in underpowered. Fix it by making it harder to play but more powerful if you play it well. | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 16 2010 23:39 dtz wrote: I don't know why you think Inca , Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing. Sure in diamond they do that, but GSL people? who are sponsored and have teams + coaches ?? Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." | ||
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote: Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. | ||
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote: Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. This^^ btw the only matchup where 4gateing ever game will get you consistent wins, you guessed it PvP, you wont get nearly as far 4gateing vs Z and T. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
Generally, most Terran players say they feel the least confident in TvZ. Generally, most Protoss players say they feel the least confident in PvZ. Generally, most Zerg players say they feel the least confident in ZvZ. Anyone seeing a trend here? Zergs say ZvZ is "A flip of a coin" - IE a 50% (Balanced) chance to win. | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:07 HuHEN wrote: This^^ btw the only matchup where 4gateing ever game will get you consistent wins, you guessed it PvP, you wont get nearly as far 4gateing vs Z and T. Well they dropped the nerf hammer on warpgates too. | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:05 H0i wrote: Your 4 gate argument is extremely weak. It is so not true that all protoss do a 4 gate to make it to diamond. I play at 2000+ diamond, either random or protoss. If I am zerg/terran I get 4-gated maybe 10% of the time. (same for the road from 1000-2000). If I get zerg/terran and have to face a toss I am HAPPY. Why? Because I know I can easily win it. So why do I play toss too? I like playing all the races, but I like the whole concept of protoss the most. Warp in, high technology. Unfortunately the race is designed really badly and I think that for protoss to be a fun race, that is balanced, we have to wait for the next expansion or maybe even the 2nd expansion. Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
If it's that terrible to balance you might as well remove it. I'd take balanced play over flavor/impossible-to-balance-around-advantage anyday | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
On November 16 2010 23:57 Cade wrote: Please don't distort my argument to fit your ends. I obviously never said that "Tester, Sangho, and all pro korean protosses spend 10 hours a day 4-gating of void ray cheesing." Didn't you say the good Protosses just got where they are doing cheesy stuff? That is why they can't make it into the GSL because they are not truly good in the first place? Inca,Tester,Sangho, Legalmind , and a lot of other Protosses are these people who do not make it this GSL and thus by your argument they are not really good because they got where they were doing cheesy stuff. Btw about the lower number of good protoss players Statistically : 33 percent of GSL 3 qualifiers were P ( compared to T : 39 and Z : 25) only 19 percent of GSL RO 64 players are P ( T : 38 Z : 42) Figures rounded for simplicity. Granted we won't know who are actually good since it's an open tournament. Anyway we can just drop this argument. I'm just trying to say i did not try to distort your argument because it was what you said in the first place ( or at least how i understand it anyway) | ||
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
Lots of forums are taking notice of this, here and overseas (south america!) - but also the battlenet forums. I think Protoss qualifying in so few numbers from such a big pool of so many talented protoss players was a GOOD THING. Because now, at least, it's harder for people to ignore the issue that protoss are facing - and that is inherently bad game design. Also, just my 2cents, but I think GSL 3 is going to be more relevant than GSL 2 or GSL 1, because now we're getting participation at a higher level than in previous GSLs. What I mean is that, in GSL 1, not all Korean pros or foreigner pros participated. So we didn't know really how well the highest level of player around the world and between races, scaled globally. But now, the best of the best everywhere are competing. So other races can't say 'OH no, that's not imbalance, they're just bad players!!'. To say that is a disservice to every top protoss who failed to qualify. Interesting question though. I wonder if Huk, Kiwikaki, Tester, and all those other top protoss would have maybe qualified had they been a different race... Ah well. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:13 Cade wrote: Are you trolling me or do you just not know how to read? I have no 4 gate argument for you to believe is weak. So I don't have any idea what you are going on about. I quote you: Most of the high ranked ladder players got there doing cheesy/very typical stuff that is easy to use. So I just hope that we will start to see some more decent P players soon. So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
But looking at protoss I don't see any room to improve their strategies in any stage of the game. Air is totally crap, colossis are countered easily. HT is the only option, but once people get used to Ghosts they are done. Gateway units are the most cost-ineffective units in the game. | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:15 dtz wrote: Didn't you say the good Protosses just got where they are doing cheesy stuff? That is why they can't make it into the GSL because they are not truly good in the first place? Inca,Tester,Sangho, Legalmind , and a lot of other Protosses are these people who do not make it this GSL and thus by your argument they are not really good because they got where they were doing cheesy stuff. Statistically : 33 percent of GSL 3 qualifiers were P ( compared to T : 39 and Z : 25) only 19 percent of GSL RO 64 players are P ( T : 38 Z : 42) Figures rounded for simplicity. Obviously even after being corrected you still cannot understand what I was saying. Your logic is so severely flawed I have no idea how to help you. You extrapolated my statement to mean what you wanted it to mean so that you could have a counter argument to it. But your counter argument has absolutely nothing to do with my original argument. Also, there are a lot more factors going into the GSL Prelims than simple race balance. There is bracket balance and most importantly MAP balance. In regards to my original argument, I was referring to the fact that there are only a small percentage of high ranked Protoss players that are actually good. Most of them do cheesy 2 base plays. And just so you don't hurt your brain, in the category of Protoss that are good, I include: InCa, Genius, Tester, oGsMC, Sangho, and others that don't come to mind right now. Please actually think about what I'm saying before you post in reply to me again. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
In regards to my original argument, I was referring to the fact that there are only a small percentage of high ranked Protoss players that are actually good. Most of them do cheesy 2 base plays. And just so you don't hurt your brain, in the category of Protoss that are good, I include: InCa, Genius, Tester, oGsMC, Sangho, and others that don't come to mind right now. And can you please elaborate on why, in general, Protoss players are subpar? Clearly by season 3 people should know that 4-gating/cheese does not work anymore and are working on innovative new ideas. Clearly, that has not worked out well. Is that a player problem, or is that a race problem? | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:16 H0i wrote: I quote you: So, yeah... If you don't mean 4 gate with that, then you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) | ||
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