EPTOn November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote:
cheesy 2base strategies
cheesy 2base strategies
risky earlygame -> expanding -> beating your enemy with economy = Cheese?
... realy?
[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 93
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
risky earlygame -> expanding -> beating your enemy with economy = Cheese? ... realy? | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
But yea even the Protosses you think are good are struggling to even qualify. Might or might not be balance problems but certainly worth having a second look at. | ||
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
WHY would protoss collect all the bad players, and lack the good ones, if not for some charactersistic of protoss race itself? I admit protoss players may have to learn/adapt more, but that is a whole different thing than players "just being bad". If protoss players are just...bad, then the question is WHY are the other races so good for "pros"? | ||
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grapz
Canada20 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
At least, in the mid game that is. Their early game timing pushes are too devastating to be buffed even more, and protoss has the most ridiculous ball-effect of all of the three races. If the Toss gets above 170 supply with a Collossus/Stalker/Sentry Ball, you can almost always type out GG and leave the game, cause Zerg literally can't counter that, aside from theoretical but never occuring things like a 200/200 ultra/corruptor/broodlord army. In my opinion the Protoss design is "fucked up". You can't buff anything because it would immediately make them super OP, but clearly there is something wrong with the race. I can only speak for PvZ (or ZvP), but most games you see and play are completely one sided, even amongst the pross. Either the Zerg crushes the Protoss, or the Protoss crushes the Zerg. Rarely if ever are there games where you can't tell the winner before the first >100 supply army battle. I think the problem is the collossus. It does too much damage after critical mass, and pure zealot/sentry/stalker/immortal doesn't do enough damage without collosi. Problem is, if you buff one of these, timing pushes will immediately become super OP. | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:26 dtz wrote: Clearly there are a lot of people here who interpreted your original statement the way that I did so I dunno if its our fault or yours. But yea even the Protosses you think are good are struggling to even qualify. Might or might not be balance problems but certainly worth having a second look at. Like I said, one important thing to remember is the fact that the map pool sucked for Protoss. Big Time. | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
There are a fair number of comments about balance in there and a number of Zergs qualifying for the first time scrapped through in their last game. Its also interesting the number of players that have switched to Zerg or previous random players choosing Zerg now (one even right at the last minute changing from Protoss, I wonder if that was after seeing the map pool as he originally registered as Protoss). Its not just a case of saying Protoss dont have any good players, some pro gamers are quite rightly picking the strongest race for them at this moment in time and at the moment that appears to be Zerg. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169153 I dont know who decided that Scrap Station would be a fair final map for this season but I think they listen too much to Artosis if his interview with iNcontroL on youtube is anything to go by. | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:29 heishe wrote: I'm Zerg, my worst matchup is PvZ, but I'm still gonna say it: Protoss is underpowered. At least, in the mid game that is. Their early game timing pushes are too devastating to be buffed even more, and protoss has the most ridiculous ball-effect of all of the three races. If the Toss gets above 170 supply with a Collossus/Stalker/Sentry Ball, you can almost always type out GG and leave the game, cause Zerg literally can't counter that, aside from theoretical but never occuring things like a 200/200 ultra/corruptor/broodlord army. In my opinion the Protoss design is "fucked up". You can't buff anything because it would immediately make them super OP, but clearly there is something wrong with the race. I can only speak for PvZ (or ZvP), but most games you see and play are completely one sided, even amongst the pross. Either the Zerg crushes the Protoss, or the Protoss crushes the Zerg. Rarely if ever are there games where you can't tell the winner before the first >100 supply army battle. I think the problem is the collossus. It does too much damage after critical mass, and pure zealot/sentry/stalker/immortal doesn't do enough damage without collosi. Problem is, if you buff one of these, timing pushes will immediately become super OP. That bold statement is a joke. Should NEVER get to that point. Colossi are easy to scout, easy to beat. You should not have a trouble with Colossi. | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:29 Cade wrote: Like I said, one important thing to remember is the fact that the map pool sucked for Protoss. Big Time. The map pool has been the same for all 3 gsl qualifiers. ( metal, xelnaga, scrap) So the decrease in Protoss can't be due to only map pools. Patches maybe. Or that people's understanding of the game has increased. Or just a freakish sets of results. | ||
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Protoss_Carrier
414 Posts
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:23 Cade wrote: Actually, what I meant by that is cheesy 2base strategies and 3gate blink stalker, and many other builds. There are a ton of builds that can all-in and get lots of wins besides 4 gate, believe it or not. I would think that you would know this being that you are a "2000+ Protoss player" (which really means nothing because 2000 rating is not good anyway) The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct. | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:36 dtz wrote: The map pool has been the same for all 3 gsl qualifiers. ( metal, xelnaga, scrap) So the decrease in Protoss can't be due to only map pools. Patches maybe. Or that people's understanding of the game has increased. Or just a freakish sets of results. Scrap has only recently become a Zerg favored and P unfavored (in both MU's) map though. Before there were lot's of timing pushes that P could do to take the game because defenses were still weak. Defenses of timing pushes are a lot better now and P has really lost a lot of footing on that map because of it. So I would say you are right in that peoples understanding of the game has increased. As well as other factors of course. General Metagame etc. | ||
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JJEOS
United States127 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:26 dtz wrote: Clearly there are a lot of people here who interpreted your original statement the way that I did so I dunno if its our fault or yours. But yea even the Protosses you think are good are struggling to even qualify. Might or might not be balance problems but certainly worth having a second look at. Worth having a look at? No it's not balance problems in quals. They are just getting beat. Three of the best Protoss in the world just happen to lose in the quals it could be a number of issues but at that stage it's not balance. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:10 Silidons wrote: What I find funny is: Generally, most Terran players say they feel the least confident in TvZ. Generally, most Protoss players say they feel the least confident in PvZ. Generally, most Zerg players say they feel the least confident in ZvZ. Anyone seeing a trend here? Zergs say ZvZ is "A flip of a coin" - IE a 50% (Balanced) chance to win. On November 17 2010 00:10 Silidons wrote: What I find funny is: Generally, most Terran players say they feel the least confident in TvZ. Generally, most Protoss players say they feel the least confident in PvZ. Generally, most Zerg players say they feel the least confident in ZvZ. Anyone seeing a trend here? Zergs say ZvZ is "A flip of a coin" - IE a 50% (Balanced) chance to win. Zerg is able to devote all of their resources to either economy or units at any point in time, and is able to instantly transition from drone production once every ~7 seconds to having the unit producing power of a 5-gate or 6 rax. This flexibility is their main racial feature. Because of this, it's difficult to know what units you can expect to have to deal with until they're on your doorstep. This uncertainty makes me feel uncomfortable (I also feel least confident in PvZ) - but that doesn't necessarily mean that makes it the most difficult style of play for me to fight against. Every form of flexibility, though scary for an opponent to play against, has tradeoffs. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
Protoss hits absolute record 80.1% on QQ-chart. | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:40 JJEOS wrote: Worth having a look at? No it's not balance problems in quals. They are just getting beat. Three of the best Protoss in the world just happen to lose in the quals it could be a number of issues but at that stage it's not balance. This just straight up makes no sense. If the three best Protoss in the world are losing to like, the 15th best Zerg or Terran or something, then something is broken within the race. If you say it's lack of good players, there is that possibility, but thenyou have to ask why is that. Well Protoss isn't as appealing to high level players because they are weaker than the other two races. | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:39 H0i wrote: The reason you think protoss always does a cheese is because the only way for them to win is to win with 1 big attack. If a toss does not win his push he loses. We have to do pushes like that because it's the only way to win. There is a reason for 1 base allins or 2 base colossi all in pushes. It is nearly impossible to win in a different way. There is no room for innovation, because the race is so weak. The only hope for a protoss to win a game, is to defeat the opponent with fancy things like 9 range colossi before there are too many vikings, or really, REALLY good force fields. (a huge luck required here) Also stop joking about my rating. It's not that bad at all and enough for me to know what I'm talking about. So, mr pro protoss. If you think we should play different, if you think there are tons of other ways to win, then prove it? Come with replays? Just play toss one day and you'll see that you are not correct. Wow I actually pissed you off enough for you to post a coherent, reasonable post! Go me! I am a P user myself btw. I understand what you are saying and I think that is the problem that many people have, is that they are trapped into that kind of thinking. Protoss is a race of finesse, with brute strength to finish the game. But the real power of Protoss comes from slowly chipping an advantage, and being able to apply pressure (be it real or just a ruse) with relatively few units. | ||
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Cade
Canada1420 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:44 bokeevboke wrote: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/jingjing/ Protoss hits absolute record 80.1% on QQ-chart. This is just Awesome! Gogo Koreans, OK now I retract everything I said, P is incredibly UP! | ||
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LostDevil
Fiji283 Posts
That being said, the biggest issue with protoss is the lack of harass in my opinion. Gate -> Robo play is just blah every game. In broodwar there were quick reaver drops, templar drops, dt drops, speed shuttles flying around every which way and zealot / dt bombs exploding terrans tank lines. Just look at Bisu's style of play in broodwar that is so harassment heavy. That would not be possible in SC2. Protoss desperately need a few new units in the expansion to complete the feel of the race and give players more tools at their disposal. As zerg I usually have 180+ apm in long games (apm not adjusted for sc2 time). With protoss I average around 140 in longer games simply because I feel like there is not enough to do. One poster mentioned how protoss needs to be made harder to play and encourage a higher skill cap. I agree with this. This, along with the need for a couple more creative units should allow protoss players to play that ridiculously cool looking race to a higher overall potential and bring much more entertaining games. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:29 heishe wrote: I'm Zerg, my worst matchup is PvZ, but I'm still gonna say it: Protoss is underpowered. At least, in the mid game that is. Their early game timing pushes are too devastating to be buffed even more, and protoss has the most ridiculous ball-effect of all of the three races. If the Toss gets above 170 supply with a Collossus/Stalker/Sentry Ball, you can almost always type out GG and leave the game, cause Zerg literally can't counter that, aside from theoretical but never occuring things like a 200/200 ultra/corruptor/broodlord army. In my opinion the Protoss design is "fucked up". You can't buff anything because it would immediately make them super OP, but clearly there is something wrong with the race. I can only speak for PvZ (or ZvP), but most games you see and play are completely one sided, even amongst the pross. Either the Zerg crushes the Protoss, or the Protoss crushes the Zerg. Rarely if ever are there games where you can't tell the winner before the first >100 supply army battle. I think the problem is the collossus. It does too much damage after critical mass, and pure zealot/sentry/stalker/immortal doesn't do enough damage without collosi. Problem is, if you buff one of these, timing pushes will immediately become super OP. that's not even true. 170 supply with a colossus/stalker/sentry is beatable with the standard roach/hydra/corruptor, and that army will never even exist against muta-ling, because mutas are so sick. Also, ultras beat that comp also (you don't need broodlords with them,) broodlord-roach also beats it. the biggest problem in PvZ is how strong muta-ling is. It's a garbage strategy which relies on harass, and yet takes no real skill to execute, and as a result it will always be either too strong, or too weak. It's just really dumb. | ||
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