|
On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else.
It's not just Idra and Artosis though, it's most of his peers who regard him as a very good player(such as fruitdealer).
Tester is still better than some of the other protosses who made it in, I'm sure. He may not be the best anymore, though. It's hard to say who is....
Tester is going to be S-class though right? since he was top 8 season1?
|
On November 17 2010 04:01 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
Is it just me, or is Korean Protoss more one-dimensional than western players'? It may be that I haven't seen enough of them, but other than a few games by Tester, very few stick out in my mind as particularly impressive or memorable, whereas I can think of a several Korean Terrans and Zergs that I've found memorable.
Western players it's almost the reverse. There's a fair amount of variety in Toss (well, Terran too), but less with Zerg. Think of the varying styles of TT1, Huk, Socke, Nightend, White-Ra, Kiwikaki, InControl...
And all of that group with all of their varying styles who tried to qualify this time...failed.
|
I think the balance complaints come from seeing the best Protosses lost to worse players. You can belittle the skill of players like Tester and Huk and Inca all you want, but don't forget that 3 months ago these forums were full of posts saying "wait out a few GSLs before you whine about balance."
Well, the final 4 race representation has been the exact same, and since GSL1 (not coincidentally since the patches began) only the good Protosses seem to have a problem qualifying. Are they worse? Maybe.
But as someone posted before, it's very simple to beat Protoss when all you need to do is know how to defend a) 2 gate robo b) 4gate c) 1gate FE d) 5gate blink stalker. Suddenly, any standard build is beatable. Weird, wonky builds get you knocked out early.
12/64 players in GSL3 are Protoss? Yeah, there's no imbalance at all.
|
On November 17 2010 04:02 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:55 CruelZeratul wrote:On November 17 2010 03:43 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else. But he still is the best with Protoss race. Who is clearly better than him? I see nobody out there who is doing better than him. NEXGenius seems a bit more consistent, but really, his game is not sensational either, I guess it's subjective in that debate. oGsMC is a lot of hope, but nothing to show for so far. So who is better than Tester? AFAIK, Tester won a lot of tournaments in Korea during beta. By many, he was considered the best SC2 player for quite long. Before GSL1, Koreans were seeing him as the number 1 or so favorite. So it wasn't just Artosis and Idra hyping him. I don't want to argue against that, I was just curious if you were able to see games of him lately. Because he didn't manage to get to Ro64 GSL2 I haven't seen games from him since GSL 1 and I'd like to see some. During the week leading up to GSL 2 Finals , there was an inhouse clan matches in which TSL played so naturally the whole team was there. Tester played 3 games. He beat cool in the semi and offraced with Terran to win the final. So yea we just saw him recently and he was looking fine.
Oh shizz, is it possible to watch the VODs anyhow for these?
As a side note, while people are suspecting Tester to be overhyped and rather mediocre, he is called for All Stars games. I guess, there aren't many better Toss players, that's why.
|
Now that Tester once again failed to qualify and Huk, who many people in this very thread were stating is perhaps the best NA Protoss also failed to qualify, perhaps it's time to admit that there might be something up with Protoss atm. It's not like Huk has the same playstyle as the Korean Protoss so it's probably not a strategy/mentality issue either.
|
On November 17 2010 04:04 Durp wrote:
I think the balance complaints come from seeing the best Protosses lost to worse players. You can belittle the skill of players like Tester and Huk and Inca all you want, but don't forget that 3 months ago these forums were full of posts saying "wait out a few GSLs before you whine about balance."
Well, the final 4 race representation has been the exact same, and since GSL1 only the good Protosses seem to have a problem qualifying. Are they worse? Maybe.
But as someone posted before, it's very simple to beat Protoss when all you need to do is know how to defend a) 2 gate robo b) 4gate c) 1gate FE d) 5gate blink stalker. Suddenly, any standard build is beatable. Weird, wonky builds get you knocked out early.
12/64 players in GSL3 are Protoss? Yeah, there's no imbalance at all.
Huk hasn't proven himself vs the top Korean players so I don't have a problem with him loosing. Jinro who just won MLG dallas failed to qualify in GSL 1 and 2 and finally made it so it shows how difficult it is to qualify. Tester on the other hand, I am surprised at since I was so impressed with him in GSL 1. Did he loose to a zerg or terran? To bad they don't show qualifiers 
|
Can someone please tell me who Tester lost to? Was it a terran or a zerg and is the player well known?
|
On November 17 2010 04:01 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
Is it just me, or is Korean Protoss more one-dimensional than western players'? It may be that I haven't seen enough of them, but other than a few games by Tester, very few stick out in my mind as particularly impressive or memorable, whereas I can think of a several Korean Terrans and Zergs that I've found memorable.
Western players it's almost the reverse. There's a fair amount of variety in Toss (well, Terran too), but less with Zerg. Think of the varying styles of TT1, Huk, Socke, Nightend, White-Ra, Kiwikaki, InControl...
Koreans play to win, Westerners play more to have fun. Watching TT1 and Huk, etc is great, but it's not the best strategy to win a tournament. Short games or really long games are better for toss since the mid-game is the problem, therefore in order to win, koreans play for huge early pressure -> expand and defend -> late game giant death ball pushes, whereas the americans tend to do a lot of early/mid game timing pushes and constantly play agressive throughout the whole game.
|
mols0n btw sorry i called u a liar like that
even though, personally, i put no faith in blizzard's "adjusted win percentages" as meaning anything really (which btw they don't explain how they come by those figures)
I also never put any faith in the non-adjusted figures as being useful statistics for balance issues either, though.
for me the primary issue is im interested in balance at the top levels, which doesn't pertain to like 80% of diamond players
|
On November 17 2010 04:10 travis wrote:
mols0n btw sorry i called u a liar like that
even though, personally, i put no faith in blizzard's "adjusted win percentages" as meaning anything really (which btw they don't explain how they come by those figures)
I also never put any faith in the non-adjusted figures as being useful statistics for balance issues either, though.
for me the primary issue is im interested in balance at the top levels, which doesn't pertain to like 80% of diamond players
Wasn't it said in one of the stat threads that Blizzard uses the Bayesian adjustment to mess with their percentages?
Still, I'm with you in that stats aren't everything. But the results of this qual and the last one speak a lot imo.
|
On November 17 2010 03:14 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:57 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:54 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:50 Xxavi wrote:On November 17 2010 02:48 Seide wrote:On November 17 2010 02:37 Cloak wrote:
I can't believe Tester got knocked out again. There's barely anything to look forward to in the GSL3. You guys can enjoy your TZs, TTs and ZZs. I'm going to find something else to watch. He was a fringe player on the worst proleague team in Starcraft 1, and on top of that he played 2v2s. I don't think its that unbelievable for someone like that to have trouble keeping up once people start getting better. Who was NesTea? Who was FruitDealer? Who was Foxer aka OptimusPrime? Who was Idra? Let's not find such inconsistent reasons to downplay players. Mediocre SC:BW players using Zerg and Terran are just fine, why it shouldn't be the case for Protoss? Who knows, hard to say about him, especially when it can come down to the personal level. Also all those players mentioned have actually had better results in SC1 than tester, despite still being unknowns. Are you sure? Better as in what? I am 100% sure that before the start of GSL1, he was THE ABSOLUTE FAVORITE to win, bar none. Yes, that's right. It's funny how his rating has fallen so fast. Idra was saying in interviews that he is afraid of him. Now, suddenly, it was all mistake, all the beta period, all those months. It was a fluke. The last 2 months put everything into perspective, it turns out, Tester is a mediocre player, who was rather average in BW as well, unlike those who are doing fine... The hype about tester came exactly from what artosis and idra, both known for extremely biased commentary and liberal use of hyperbole, had been saying about him. People buy into that crap, now when the guy fails to keep up with the level of his peers, a shit storm ensues. The dude was overhyped, plain and simple. Ps: I'm not saying that protoss is fine and all of their players are magically less skilled than everyone else.
you could be more wrong. people respect tester because of his results in the beta. he was largely feared because of his mechanics and winrate in tournies. even his GSL1 performance was solid. he may not have evolved his play as well as others for the other GSLs, or he's in a slump.
nice name, btw.
*oh, clide was hyped in part because of his association with tester and fruitdealer.
|
On November 17 2010 04:10 travis wrote:
mols0n btw sorry i called u a liar like that
even though, personally, i put no faith in blizzard's "adjusted win percentages" as meaning anything really (which btw they don't explain how they come by those figures)
I also never put any faith in the non-adjusted figures as being useful statistics for balance issues either, though.
for me the primary issue is im interested in balance at the top levels, which doesn't pertain to like 80% of diamond players
Its cool bro. The thing is if they balance it for just the top lets say 200 players, thats SUCH a small minority. Like .1% of all players playing maybe? Just a guess. They have to think the big picture as well. Imo I think toss is too strong late game vs T and too weak early. The easy solution is to just say nerf HT and Collosi and buff warpgate units. But then the question becomes will that make 4 gate rushes too strong? And what about zerg. Zerg has late game advantage over toss so wouldn't that just make toss lategame worse? So its a tricky issue
|
On November 17 2010 03:55 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:50 mols0n wrote:
Wait, why is PvT balance even an issue? If you look at the latest numbers in Bnet on the diamond servers Protoss wins everywhere(and by a decent margin) except for EU. In korea diamond protoss win like 58% of the games. If anything people should talk about PvZ balance. I feel like because a few patches ago, when terran was considered "imba", and grack and all those guys were complaining everyone jumped on the bandwagon and still hasn't gotten off even though its clear that if PvT is unbalanced in any way, its protoss favored. i love how this isn't even true. AT ALL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167042rofl seriously. great post man. what a terrific post.
Korea – Diamond – 11/11
PvT: 58.0%
PvZ: 43.0%
It almost feels like there's a typo there and PvT should be 48.0%. If it's true that PvT is 58% and PvZ 43% then something is seriously screwed up in the game balance.
Also an important distinction to make is lower diamond and top (pro lvl) diamond. I think at Blizzcon they showed the numbers and at the top diamond the PvT numbers were the reverse (in favor of terran) of the overall diamond stats. This, along with the apparently bad PvZ % would explain why Protoss is doing so bad in the GSLs. It's not the bronze->mid diamond where the problem is, it's at the tip top pro level.
|
On November 17 2010 04:10 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 04:01 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
Is it just me, or is Korean Protoss more one-dimensional than western players'? It may be that I haven't seen enough of them, but other than a few games by Tester, very few stick out in my mind as particularly impressive or memorable, whereas I can think of a several Korean Terrans and Zergs that I've found memorable.
Western players it's almost the reverse. There's a fair amount of variety in Toss (well, Terran too), but less with Zerg. Think of the varying styles of TT1, Huk, Socke, Nightend, White-Ra, Kiwikaki, InControl... Koreans play to win, Westerners play more to have fun. Watching TT1 and Huk, etc is great, but it's not the best strategy to win a tournament. Short games or really long games are better for toss since the mid-game is the problem, therefore in order to win, koreans play for huge early pressure -> expand and defend -> late game giant death ball pushes, whereas the americans tend to do a lot of early/mid game timing pushes and constantly play agressive throughout the whole game.
No. All of the best players play to win. HuK does make more risky moves sometimes, but that's part of his style and often gives him advantages (and disadvantages). TT1 plays pretty straightforward.
The problem with westerners is there just aren't enough of them up to par with Korean mechanics. When there are a lot of players good mechanically(like in Korea), the more the game stabalizes to set strategies. It's adantageous for players like HuK to have his style in NA but wont help in Korea.
|
Considering only three notable foreigner Protoss tried (and failed) to qualify for GSL 3, it's hard to say they did that much worse than the Koreans, who also performed dismally. Heck, Huk and inControl both got damn close and were arguably screwed by the map pool.
Watching TT1 and Huk, etc is great, but it's not the best strategy to win a tournament.
Huk has put up his fair share of solid tournament performances, and TT1 got second at MLG with an impressively solid, good-on-the-fundamentals style. OK, the Huk's mothership rush is stupid, but that's one game.
I forgot Tyler/Nony in my original list, who also impressed at MLG.
|
On November 17 2010 03:04 CanucksJC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 02:57 slam wrote:
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but here are the results from GSL Season 3 qualifiers:
Zerg:
27
Terran:
24
Protoss:
12
Random:
1
Looks like we're gonna have another season without much protoss representation... but hey, we'll see what happens. The worst thing about that 12 toss number is it's missing the likes of InCa and Tester... Really, the only toss I think that has a chance to go far is MC and Genius... and they're known to be rather fragile (MC aka suicide toss, Genius DAVIT'ed)
Does anyone have the number of protoss to actually play? like is it 12 out of 30? 12 out of 40?
|
I would love to see a change in the Warpgate research.
Instead of beeing able to instantely warp in units after morphing them, give them first a cycle of cooldown.
Right now you can basically skip one production cycle which makes 4-gating for instance so unbeliavable strong, so that gateway units cant be that awsome, otherway you would mow down everything.
With this change, and maybe some higher gateway cooldowns, you could maybe buff some gateway units (zealot / stalker) while nerfing the warpgate pushes.
Along those there has of course to be adjustments to colossus / amulett to shift protoss
strength from weak early / mid - strong / late to a balanced shift through the stages.
Maybe also some changes to some gateway units researches (citadel cost, leg speed f.e etc.)
|
On November 17 2010 04:18 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 04:10 darmousseh wrote:On November 17 2010 04:01 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
Is it just me, or is Korean Protoss more one-dimensional than western players'? It may be that I haven't seen enough of them, but other than a few games by Tester, very few stick out in my mind as particularly impressive or memorable, whereas I can think of a several Korean Terrans and Zergs that I've found memorable.
Western players it's almost the reverse. There's a fair amount of variety in Toss (well, Terran too), but less with Zerg. Think of the varying styles of TT1, Huk, Socke, Nightend, White-Ra, Kiwikaki, InControl... Koreans play to win, Westerners play more to have fun. Watching TT1 and Huk, etc is great, but it's not the best strategy to win a tournament. Short games or really long games are better for toss since the mid-game is the problem, therefore in order to win, koreans play for huge early pressure -> expand and defend -> late game giant death ball pushes, whereas the americans tend to do a lot of early/mid game timing pushes and constantly play agressive throughout the whole game. No. All of the best players play to win. HuK does make more risky moves sometimes, but that's part of his style and often gives him advantages (and disadvantages). TT1 plays pretty straightforward. The problem with westerners is there just aren't enough of them up to par with Korean mechanics. When there are a lot of players good mechanically(like in Korea), the more the game stabalizes to set strategies. It's adantageous for players like HuK to have his style in NA but wont help in Korea.
The same thing happens in chess. In the west people play a lot of the Ruy-Lopez or silicon, but in europe it might be more common to see gambit play. Personally i use Queen's gambit most of the time even though it is considered "strategically inferior". If koreans played chess like they do starcraft, they would almost exclusively use hyper agressive strategies and win in small tactical battles instead of long positional games.
|
On November 17 2010 04:22 mols0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2010 03:04 CanucksJC wrote:On November 17 2010 02:57 slam wrote:
Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but here are the results from GSL Season 3 qualifiers:
Zerg:
27
Terran:
24
Protoss:
12
Random:
1
Looks like we're gonna have another season without much protoss representation... but hey, we'll see what happens. The worst thing about that 12 toss number is it's missing the likes of InCa and Tester... Really, the only toss I think that has a chance to go far is MC and Genius... and they're known to be rather fragile (MC aka suicide toss, Genius DAVIT'ed) Does anyone have the number of protoss to actually play? like is it 12 out of 30? 12 out of 40?
Its a gigantic number, there are over 1000 people who try and qualify I believe, but they are vying for 64 spots so 12 out of 64.
|
On November 17 2010 04:23 Elefanto wrote:
I would love to see a change in the Warpgate research.
Instead of beeing able to instantely warp in units after morphing them, give them first a cycle of cooldown.
How long would you make it? Different units have different cool-downs. You'd get the same effect by increasing the morph-time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
