EPTThat's probably why they have to make other protoss units garbage/too expensive to keep it close?
[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 101
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
That's probably why they have to make other protoss units garbage/too expensive to keep it close? | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
On November 17 2010 04:22 mols0n wrote: Does anyone have the number of protoss to actually play? like is it 12 out of 30? 12 out of 40? 12 out of 64. | ||
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
On November 17 2010 04:25 CaptainFwiffo wrote: How long would you make it? Different units have different cool-downs. You'd get the same effect by increasing the morph-time. Pretty sure all units have the same warpgate cooldown. | ||
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dekuschrub
United States2069 Posts
the race is so gay to fight against but they have these periods when they are really weak and people just exploit them really well I actually think its not a balance issue, and soon protoss will be back up there. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On November 17 2010 04:39 Firebolt145 wrote: Pretty sure all units have the same warpgate cooldown. No, plane wrong. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
Wow when you look at it like that it truly is even sadder. 18% :/ | ||
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Moragon
United States355 Posts
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
A Warp Gate can warp in only one unit at a time within 5. The warp in for a certain unit has a cooldown of 10 lesser than the Gateway's build time for the unit. Never knew that. :o | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On November 17 2010 04:25 CaptainFwiffo wrote: How long would you make it? Different units have different cool-downs. You'd get the same effect by increasing the morph-time. Would be the better solution, didn't think of it. | ||
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robertdinh
803 Posts
Random player - "OMG this protoss beat me in this specific scenario they must be strong" The reality of it is protoss should never get to that scenario where they can consistently beat you, because there are certain flaws within the race that are easily exploitable, and you can dictate how a toss plays. Toss are getting the wow-dk treatment where blizzard keeps nerfing them even after they are in steady decline. Part of that is because blizzard doesn't just balance for high caliber 1on1. Tbh I don't know exactly what changes would be perfect for toss, but I personally feel blizzard needs to change the focus away from forcefield. It comes from a gas heavy unit and it is almost expected for us to use it to cover up our early game army weaknesses. I never feel comfortable fighting a larger and stronger terran army and having the outcome of the battle so dependent on forcefields alone. If I get good funnels and traps I run him over despite having a weaker army, if I don't, he can eradicate my army almost instantly.... I also think zealots, as our strict mineral dump, need to be buffed some way but I am not sure how. I think they are extremely conditional before charge upgrade. They shouldn't be as weak as they are vs marine/marauder and ling/roach. I don't know how you would buff them properly though because adding more dmg or hp is just a bandaid fix and they are still going to get screwed over by the fact that they are melee and move slowly. | ||
zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
It might even encourage some builds that skip warp gate for a while in favor of other tech, maybe even some hallucinate first builds which would allow Protoss to scout before banshee timing against terrans in time to get a robo+observer reactively. Currently the extra production cycle that comes when warp gate finishes provides too big of a benefit to early warp gate rushes and is also too essential for holding off a ton of allins. | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
On November 17 2010 04:50 robertdinh wrote: I saw this coming a mile away, because blizzard and a lot of players in general don't fully understand balance. Random player - "OMG this protoss beat me in this specific scenario they must be strong" The reality of it is protoss should never get to that scenario where they can consistently beat you, because there are certain flaws within the race that are easily exploitable, and you can dictate how a toss plays. Toss are getting the wow-dk treatment where blizzard keeps nerfing them even after they are in steady decline. Part of that is because blizzard doesn't just balance for high caliber 1on1. Tbh I don't know exactly what changes would be perfect for toss, but I personally feel blizzard needs to change the focus away from forcefield. It comes from a gas heavy unit and it is almost expected for us to use it to cover up our early game army weaknesses. I never feel comfortable fighting a larger and stronger terran army and having the outcome of the battle so dependent on forcefields alone. If I get good funnels and traps I run him over despite having a weaker army, if I don't, he can eradicate my army almost instantly.... I also think zealots, as our strict mineral dump, need to be buffed some way but I am not sure how. I think they are extremely conditional before charge upgrade. They shouldn't be as weak as they are vs marine/marauder and ling/roach. I don't know how you would buff them properly though because adding more dmg or hp is just a bandaid fix and they are still going to get screwed over by the fact that they are melee and move slowly. totally agree with a lot you said. zealots early vs marauders are only good if the other guy 1a's. a couple concussive shells and they are completely passive in a small army fight. charge lots are pretty awesome, but twilight + charge is an expensive upgrade early in the map. i fast expand a lot, and like you said i depend on good FF's pretty much every single time i try an FE against Terran. no matter how much i would like to try mass gateway or stargates i then scout the Terran ramp and see 2 marines and forced to insta robo>obs. this could be just frustration and not constructive thinking, but i would really like to have some more variance in how i can open as toss and not lose to a single bio bush or a banshee. could throw some zerg situations in too, but i don't feel like typing and FE with some gates is a lot more viable against zerg i feel. | ||
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McMonty
Canada379 Posts
On November 17 2010 04:41 Moragon wrote: Update: In NA top 200 last week I reported 51 protoss, this week the new number is 45. Thats 22.5% folks. What?? Dropped 6 P in just one week? Whats happening to Protoss? They are getting crushed... Its like a wave of failure all across the board. 22% Top200 18% GSL participation all of that despite 34% of diamond being Protoss! There seems to be a huge divide between high level diamond balance and mid to low level diamond balance. I wonder what causes that? | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
Yes I understand there are reasons for not using them, but it's arrogant to say,"I can NEVER use those units." Wait for new strategies, or make your own. As for dependency on FF early game, I do think that is a problem. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:48 david0925 wrote: Which is why I think Warpgate needs fundamental change because this is the choke we're having at the moment: 4 Warpgate being too effective against people that don't know how to stop it effectively, and Blizzard needing to keep tier 1 Gateway units bad relatively to compensate for that. ding ding ding ding. we have a winner. two of the three gateway units have the lowest DPS in the game. Let that sink in. Because you need to build both of them (one is protoss' equivalent of life support, other one prevents kiting), protoss early game armies are just not up to snuff in the dps department unless you crank out units from 4 gateways. Even then, it is not a very strong strategy if the other player knows how to stop it. | ||
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
On November 17 2010 05:05 ibreakurface wrote: There is only one, kind of two, tech paths for toss because no one has tried anything else. People only use void rays in small numbers earlyish game, carriers are never used, phoenix's are used only when one needs to counter air, and DTs are hardly used. Yes I understand there are reasons for not using them, but it's arrogant to say,"I can NEVER use those units." Wait for new strategies, or make your own. As for dependency on FF early game, I do think that is a problem. totally see your point, and i've been trying different stuff with variable success. my favorite build is 1 or 3 gate expands as you can really go into any tech path after your second base is up and with the 3 gates you can hold off most early pressure unless some crazy all ins. you can just chrono the 3 gates basicly making it a 4 gate, obviously delaying your expo but you can still get it down or vs a FE zerg expand around 30 good and use the 3 gates to pressure the zerg. it's nice cause you can just throw another 2 gates + twilight and go templar tech (high or dark) in the midgame which opens up some harass options and i don't have to auto colossi. this build really struggles vs banshees however. trying really hard to make warp prisms a big part of my gameplay (qxc style!) but the speed even with the upgrade is nowhere near a medivac. it is def viable just not as agressive as i would like, and if you get the robo bay for warp prism speed you might aswell go colossi haha. | ||
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