EPTWhy it is too early to make severe balance changes - Page 5
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 07 2010 22:03 JamieDukes wrote: battlecruiser buff? what exactly counters battlecruisers so easily? seeing a starport with a techlab, protoss have to get a robo incase of cloaked banshees. no units from the robo help at all against battlecruisers protoss simply dont have the gas to get a starport and robotics early so unless you scout the fusion core early its difficult to defend. terran can also use the spare minerals to mass a bio army which would beat pure stalker. Welcome to the world of Zerg... I think Terran and especially Protoss-Users are extremely spoilt because they have such an easy time scouting and have pretty strong standard-builds that have a good chance of defending against anything. Guess what: Zerg doesn't have those Luxury's. You say it's hard cuz you have to scout the Fusion Core, this is how it is for Zerg with every building. 1 Building you scout (or not) with slow overlords or overseers that can still be outrun by Stalkers will make a huge difference: It makes a huge difference if the opponent for example has a Robo with our without a Robo-Bay. it makes a huge difference if you see 3 or 4 Gateways, it makes a huge difference if P has a Dark Shrine or a Archive or none if you see the council - but Protoss has Observers which you should get out anyways to scout around and Terran has Reapers, floating buildings and Scans... Zerg has such a hard time adapting to stuff like that and Protoss whines because there's 1 Unit that's kinda hard to counter? Protoss can go 4-warpgate in almost any MU and be fine, while Zerg has to adapt perfectly every game to even stand the slightest chance to not get completely raped. Just keep playing the easy race dude... | ||
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hdkhang
Australia183 Posts
On September 07 2010 21:32 Rabiator wrote: Ummm ... nope ... thats what the "dump creep" mechanic of the Overlord and the Nydus worm is for. If we go by your logic then Zerg can never fight on any map, because there is no creep ... especially in the beginning. Just get an extra queen and drop 4 tumors next to each other and cover the map in minutes. With a Nydus worm or an Overlord you can start anywhere on the map and if the opponent spends his time killing these tumors he will be wasting time. You simply need to make many more tumors than the opponent cares to kill and that is quite easy. You can also just gather your army in some Overlords and drop them into the enemies base while the Overlords start spreading creep. Since Overlords are quite resilient they are doing the same as the SCVs of Terrans do when they are pulled for an attack. P.S.: What would YOU do to fix the game? Nerf everyone else to uselessness? 4 tumors covering a large map in minutes? You can't have actually tried this. I've done this on 3v3 large maps, and even with 3 of us actively creeping it took a while to cover our half of the map. Just to clarify, it was active creeping using shared control btw, so not like we sit around forgetting to do just that. Creep tumors don't spring up instantly whenever you want unless dropped by queens (which eat up 2 food btw), there is a cooldown and you have creep that needs to spread out for it to be able to replanted. Dump creep from overlord leaves supply out in the open to be sniped. You always go on and on and on and on and on about how Zerg can replenish their armies in an instant (which is only true if you have larvae) and yet you want people to sack overlords to get yourself supply blocked? | ||
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smegged
Australia213 Posts
The biggest was the roach nerf, which exposed the fragile underbelly of Zerg who had relied previously on the one imbalanced unit to win. | ||
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
The real problem OP, and that is something that you really need to understand, is that you dont understand the hidden code. The hidden code is something that you for some reason were oblivious to and before you deviate even further from your path i shall enlighten you. When you first play SC2, just when you are about to play your first game, there is a moment were you have to decide your destiny. When you look at the screen and see "Select your race" and see Terran Zerg Protoss Random, you need to understand what your option will bring forth and uleash your destiny. If you chose Terran, it means you want to play the game. If you chose Zerg, it means you want to go whine in the forums instead of playing. If you chose Protoss it means you want to be a cheese factory and do everything in your power to win the game without actualy having an actual army, if it means doing a cannon rush then going for a proxy gateway then going for DT and the going VR and then when it all fails saying "Fuck you noob" and leave, so be it..... If you chose Random, well, its like you are kinda whining on the forums but at the same time want to play the game with some cheese here and there. And NO MATTER WHAT, you cant cross to other races territories. You CANT come whine in the forums unless you play zerg (protoss is ok right now but just because zergs are distracted with terran right now). I will probably be banned, because this is the unspoken code, but i just had to help you, so carry on this knowledge and help others in need. PS: Fuck mutas and fuck banelings | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 07 2010 22:38 smegged wrote: The thing is, during the beta they made drastic changes very quickly which were not thoroughly able to be tested by the community before going love. The biggest was the roach nerf, which exposed the fragile underbelly of Zerg who had relied previously on the one imbalanced unit to win. And of course there were some changes that absolutely weren't needed at all, like: - Neural Parasite nerf - 250mm Cannon nerf - HSM nerf And some changes ppl wanted since Phase 1 of the beta, but Blizzard didn't care, like: - Marauder nerf - Better Maps - Better Upgrades for Zerg (like T3 Ling-Upgrade which is absolutely ridiculous) - Better zerglings (literally everyone laughed and still does at how bad Zerglings are compared to BW and compared to other T1-Units) | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
Read carefully how Blizzard word their guidelines in preliminary patch notes. They almost never talk about power imbalance; rather they talk about what they would like to see used more in the game, or used less in the game; or how they would like some game elements to be used. Eg: They want to see tanks, but not as often as now, and not against the whole kinds of unit compositions which tanks can attack now. They prefer to see tanks used with more specific purposes, and for other cases to be challanged to use other units. That's just one example. | ||
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smegged
Australia213 Posts
On September 07 2010 22:42 kickinhead wrote: And of course there were some changes that absolutely weren't needed at all, like: - Neural Parasite nerf - 250mm Cannon nerf - HSM nerf And some changes ppl wanted since Phase 1 of the beta, but Blizzard didn't care, like: - Marauder nerf - Better Maps - Better Upgrades for Zerg (like T3 Ling-Upgrade which is absolutely ridiculous) - Better zerglings (literally everyone laughed and still does at how bad Zerglings are compared to BW and compared to other T1-Units) Yeah, playing zerg feels like playing a half finished race. Like, they got all of the macro done extremely well with the zerg (except they need to give a bit more flexibility with injection timings, and perhaps another 25 starting energy extra for queens) but then really stuffed up their units. The mechanics of playing zerg is fun, even though their current unit composition is not. The roach nerf was necessary, but other zerg units were not strengthened to compensate. Then there is the reaper problem - they're an early game unit that forces the zerg to counter with a unit that is slaughtered by units built out of the exact same building that the first unit was built from. It's so easy to transition from 5rax reaper into marauders if the zerg goes roaches and marauders just own roaches so hard it's not funny. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
Does it occur to you that TvP is currently very balanced even at the highest level? If you nerf a CORE UNIT in this matchup, it's simply going to skew the balance of the matchup in the favor of Protoss... I don't understand you people. DURRR NERF MARAUDER DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. TvP is balanced. TvZ is not. Blindly nerfing units could fix one matchup while destroying another. | ||
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SunTzuEU
Sweden221 Posts
On September 07 2010 14:55 StupidFatHobbit wrote: This is just screaming "Terran player, don't nerf my op race I don't want to lose games." User was temp banned for this post. No. This is screaming logic. Every point he makes is true? Makes me a sad panda to read posts like this, whenever a person makes an effort to do a post that isn't "NERF DIZ NURF DAT PLZ". Random player here too! Edit: I really agree that blizz needs to take a look on the maps. Go on and play the ICCup maps at bnet, it's a completely different game. | ||
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The_Pacifist
United States540 Posts
But it's the same tired argument we've seen far too many times. "It's too early for patches because it's just too early and Blizzard doesn't know what they're doing." To me, this belongs in a blog, though honestly, I've seen more insightful blog rants on balance. This is nothing new, not in the slightest. | ||
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TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
Have you even seen 5rax reaper versus zerg? Have you seen siege tanks versus ANY ground army? Nothing made sense except: Neural parasite is broken..... ....It is also barely viable against big late game armies. Some change to its mechanics would be adorable. The marauder might need to lose stim. Other units which might need some tweaks: corruptor with corruption. It lacks complexity when compared to the devourer. Mothership, carriers, archons are seldom used. Honestly everything else sounds like someone who has never even watched a game of starcraft 2. Everyone on this forum is now more stupid for reading the OP. You are awarded no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On September 07 2010 23:01 TLOBrian wrote: The marauder might need to lose stim. Absurd. If the marauder lost stim, it would COMPLETELY BREAK TvP. Completely. Protoss would simply win the game once they got Colossi or Templar. End. It's already a close, balanced matchup. If you gave a huge nerf like that to the marauder, there would be nothing you could do to stop the onslaught of second tier Protoss. And the problem people have with the Reaper, Brian, is that it's only useful in one specific build in one specific matchup, or for scouting. THAT'S IT. It's a broken unit. Just "nerfing it" isn't really good enough. It needs to be REVAMPED. A straight nerf and it will just end up as a unit that never gets used, ever. People don't seem to be using their brains very much in this thread. | ||
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TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
On September 07 2010 23:06 ltortoise wrote: Absurd. If the marauder lost stim, it would COMPLETELY BREAK TvP. Completely. Protoss would simply win the game once they got Colossi or Templar. End. It's already a close, balanced matchup. If you gave a huge nerf like that to the marauder, there would be nothing you could do to stop the onslaught of second tier Protoss. And the problem people have with the Reaper, Brian, is that it's only useful in one specific build in one specific matchup, or for scouting. THAT'S IT. It's a broken unit. Just "nerfing it" isn't really good enough. It needs to be REVAMPED. A straight nerf and it will just end up as a unit that never gets used, ever. People don't seem to be using their brains very much in this thread. 1) Maybe make some tier 2 units? Ghost which have OP emp, Tanks which have OP siege mode, helions which have OP blue flame for zealots. 2) Marauders shrug off storm like no tomorrow. 3) The fact that you can LOL STIM and take down 4 collossi with a couple volleys and then kite the rest of the army with concussive shells guaranteeing your retreat is bullshit. 4) The matchup is not close to balance in any way with marauders having stim AND concussive shells. One of them needs to go, or have a huge drawback to making it balanced. 30 HP every stim for marauders maybe, or every other hit slowing, or even the marauder cannot move after firing a volley with concussive shells. Something along those lines to make it so you cannot mow down half a protoss army if they make the wise decision and try to retreat. You simply CANNOT retreat against a bio terran now, It's like here, heres two upgrades for less than 200/200 that BREAKS the game. The combination of stim AND concussive shells on the marauder makes them BROKEN. END OF STORY. IN EVERY MATCHUP. When you can drop 4 of any unit thats not tier 3, well a unit more effective at killing bases than a tier 3, and have to worry about your entire base being wiped out, that makes me a sad sad panda. 5) God forbid the terran has to actually position his army or get vikings against collossi, which come two at a time from a building that is easily produced and cheapily doubles its production capacity with a simple addon that doesn't take that much time to build. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On September 07 2010 21:39 okrane wrote: This post should have his own thread. Can't believe everyone rambles about hard to grasp stuff like "balance" and misses the essential point summed up in a gem like this post. Respect to you sir, for putting it thus nicely. indeed a good post. the game is very one sided in most matchups atm. not necessarily from pure balance point of you but from whos in control/aggressive. while this ofc is still related to balance,maps etc i think blizzard just fucked up with some of the dynamics between the races. for example ZvP. in broodwar gateway units were very limited in power early on. the P had to fear the Zs tech. goons were horrible against mutas, no robo bay no lurker detection, no storm/speed and you cant take on hydras. now the 3 basic gateway units do perfectly fine against pretty much all Z can do. stalker+sentry has no prob with mutas in a straight fight,lurkers are gone and their substitute banelings are a non issue, evrything Z has till hive except the hydra is "ok" at best vs the most basic gateway spam. P can stay aggressive the whole game. P doesnt have to fear anything (hydras get HARDcountered by collosus aclick, mutas get HARDcountered by phoenix rightclick spam) and its just a survival test for the Z till he gets ultras out which then stomp pretty much evrything the P has(if the P doesnt have tons immortals+storm. ) similar thing in TvP where T doesnt really fear anything P has and just spams units into the enemys base cause their most basic units just stomp/do very well against most of P units. add vikings to hardcounter collosus and we have a similar situation like in ZvP . again P has to survive till he got storm+energy upgrade. then he can stomp like evrything T has (if the T doesnt have tons of emp and gets most/all templars) add the lack of real challenging/unique micro,the ability to mass a ton of units from 1-2 bases,the small unbalanced map and you have the boring one sided games we have now. sure its possible to balance the game around such gameplay(and the actual race powers arent that much different). but it just isnt fun when the matchups lack dynamics and one race is just in survival mode for 90% of the game. | ||
DTown
United States428 Posts
Everyone on this forum is now more stupid for reading the OP. You are awarded no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. Win! | ||
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
On September 07 2010 23:01 TLOBrian wrote: Most idiotic OP I have read in a long time. Have you even seen 5rax reaper versus zerg? Have you seen siege tanks versus ANY ground army? Nothing made sense except: Neural parasite is broken..... ....It is also barely viable against big late game armies. Some change to its mechanics would be adorable. The marauder might need to lose stim. Other units which might need some tweaks: corruptor with corruption. It lacks complexity when compared to the devourer. Mothership, carriers, archons are seldom used. Honestly everything else sounds like someone who has never even watched a game of starcraft 2. Everyone on this forum is now more stupid for reading the OP. You are awarded no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. I agree with everything in this post. I don't see how you can make statements like - bunker build time was never a problem, when you are a pretty bad player. Being 300th in a region is pretty bad, being 300th random player is definately not a qualification. I'm was 800 points at one point and I suck. I never played sc1 online and my macro is terrible. Whenever I find random players around my skill level they just cheese every game. OP's like this are the reason the imbalance discussion is so bad. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On September 07 2010 23:21 TLOBrian wrote: 1) Maybe make some tier 2 units? Ghost which have OP emp, Tanks which have OP siege mode, helions which have OP blue flame for zealots. 2) Marauders shrug off storm like no tomorrow. 3) The fact that you can LOL STIM and take down 4 collossi with a couple volleys and then kite the rest of the army with concussive shells guaranteeing your retreat is bullshit. 4) The matchup is not close to balance in any way with marauders having stim AND concussive shells. One of them needs to go, or have a huge drawback to making it balanced. 30 HP every stim for marauders maybe, or every other hit slowing, or even the marauder cannot move after firing a volley with concussive shells. Something along those lines to make it so you cannot mow down half a protoss army if they make the wise decision and try to retreat. You simply CANNOT retreat against a bio terran now, It's like here, heres two upgrades for less than 200/200 that BREAKS the game. The combination of stim AND concussive shells on the marauder makes them BROKEN. END OF STORY. IN EVERY MATCHUP. When you can drop 4 of any unit thats not tier 3, well a unit more effective at killing bases than a tier 3, and have to worry about your entire base being wiped out, that makes me a sad sad panda. 5) God forbid the terran has to actually position his army or get vikings against collossi, which come two at a time from a building that is easily produced and cheapily doubles its production capacity with a simple addon that doesn't take that much time to build. What the hell? You can't possibly watch or play much TvP. Marauders do not "shrug off" storm. Storm RAPES all forms of bio. It's a giant AoE attack that takes massive chunks of HP out of large quantities of units. Also, nothing is so simple as "vikings counter colossi." Are we even playing the same game? The game is about composition, not "UNIT X COUNTERS UNIT Y." When people make colossi, they typically PROTECT their colossi with blink stalkers. I can't just go up and kill the colossi with my vikings unless their micro sucks. And now I'm supposed to mass tanks and hellions, as well as vikings, in addition to my bio ball with medivacs? I can't make everything. Day9 talks about people who make these kinds of comments and laughs. It's like you think I can just have all the units all at once. Gas limits my compositions greatly. The more marauders I have, the less tanks, medivacs, and vikings I can have. And how is EMP "overpowered." A ghost costs 150 gas. That's A LOT. EMP uses a lot of energy. I don't even MAKE ghosts vs protoss generally, because the good tosses use their storms ASAP, and never ball their templar up. It takes all of 5 clicks to make your templars cost one EMP each, and that's assuming you can even get close enough to EMP them. It's not like people put their templar right at the front of their army and say "emp me please!" Being cutesy and trying to get a cloaked ghost up close is also a joke. Furthermore, once the Protoss has the amulet, a templar has a storm immediately upon being warped in. Good luck EMP'ing it in the 5 second window before they cast a storm. Do you watch tournaments? Terran does not have a huge win rate vs Protoss. There are perhaps more Terrans in the top 5 or so of tournaments because of the simple number advantage (TvZ is imbalanced and PvZ is not, so more tosses get knocked out by zergs than terrans). TvP is not a one-sided affair. It's the most balanced matchup in the game IMO. There are LOADS of viable Protoss openings and Terran openings, lots of interesting ways to build your armies, and everything has an accessible counter. But sure, a Terran who has massed up ghosts, medivacs, vikings, siege tanks, and marauders might not have a counter. INFINITE GAS TERRAN! WOOOO | ||
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lindn
Sweden833 Posts
On September 07 2010 14:51 Perscienter wrote: Appendixes (just because I'm posting): 1. The changes in detail [list] [*]Zealot build time and warpgate cooldown +5 seconds each: I'd leave them alone. have you played zerg vs protoss? the one and only tactic i have no chance against at all is early zealot pressure (simply, i don't have the economy early game to defend something like that and still come out with a decent economy once he stops and puts up his expo, i lose within a few minutes after this even if i defended it perfectly) On September 07 2010 14:51 Perscienter wrote: [*]Reapers and bunkers build time +5 seconds: I'd leave them also alone. There were no issues with the bunker at all. right now it's very hard unless the enemy is way to slow to actually get a good defence, creep and overlord placement up in time to defend a reaper rush, reapers are fine, i just need more time to prepare, 5 seconds isn't that long and will help zerg to even out the game. so yes, you're right that it's easy to defend against the reapers, but putting up everything you said takes time and 5 tiny tiny seconds will help zerg to deal with reapers better. On September 07 2010 14:51 Perscienter wrote: [*]Siege tank nerf vs. light and unarmored: My essay implies of course that this is unnecessary. It also doesn't make sense. These units should be blasted by the siege tanks all the more. it does make sense that big tanks with big explosions rip small and light units apart. but the question is, is it balanced? right now, no. the tank still makes a lot of damage vs lings and hydras which your marines are supposed to clean up. having tanks kill heavier units like ultralisks/roaches would actually balance things out, currently the only unit in the terran army that properly counters roaches are marauders, and marauders are not good with a tank army since you need those extra marines for AA unless you go heavy mech and gets more thors out. anyways, blizz probably needs more time to think over the current problems, the game haven't been out for that long and tactics are new and experimental. BW wasn't balanced from the start. | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On September 07 2010 15:38 kickinhead wrote: It's not too early... It's too late for my taste, Blizzard can't be that ignorant and not see that: - Reapers and Marauders are heavily overpowered. - Almost any kind of early timing-push (or 4-gateway-timing-push) is extremely hard for Zerg to hold (they have to sacrifice their economy basically). - Structural defense is underpowered (cuz stuff like Marauders and Reapers deal ridiculous DMG). - Zerg has too less options early on and their basic Unit (Zergling) is by far the weakest compared to Zealot/Marine. - Terran Upgrades like Nitro Packs, Blue-Flames for Hellions and Stim Packs are too cheap and good, while Zergs Upgrades are too expensive and bad (Adrenalin-Upgrade for Zerglings) - Tech Lab is too cheap, builds too fast and opens up too many Options for Terran. - The Creep-Mechanic is totally f'd up... - Several Skills like Neural parasite, 250mm Cannon and HSM have been nerfed to death with no apparent reason. - THEIR MAPS FKN SUCK! None of the changes Blizzard mentioned so far won't do anything to make the game more balanced. I mean: 5 sec's more on the reapers? With 5-rax-reapers, you can't build Reapers out of all raxes at any time anyways until the expansion is fully up- and running, so absolutely no harm done there. zealot -5 sec? Who cares if all the other Warpgate-Units still have a much too short cooldown for Zerg to hold without saccing their economy (while Protoss can pump Probes and even expand...). BC-change is ridiculous and the Siege-Tank-nerf will only make Tanks less viable in TvP, but everyone uses Bio in TvP anyways, so who cares?... rly, it's like Blizzard randomly throws dart at the wall with different Units and Stat-buff's/nerf and then implements them into the game - how can they be so oblivious? This is pretty much exactly what has been in my head for the last couple of weeks. Both this post and the OP are quite subjective and I just got to agree with kickinhead. When discussing bunkers the reply is "theyre fine" I guess you've never had 2 bunkers at the bottem of your ramp, even if they dont get up, terran loses so little compared to the 6 drones the zerg pulls or whatever. Considering reapers, I think the zerg has to put ten times more effort into stopping them than the terran has, while T is setting up for a solid midgame, while the zerg has 2/3 of the workercount if he survives it. | ||
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