EPTWhy it is too early to make severe balance changes - Page 7
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 07 2010 22:52 smegged wrote: It's so easy to transition from 5rax reaper into marauders if the zerg goes roaches and marauders just own roaches so hard it's not funny. Exactly, that's why, most of the time, Zerg spends 200 minerals+mining time for the Roach Warren and 3-5 larvae and 75/25 per Roach just to make the Terran switch to marauders. Then of course, Zerg needs the Speed-Upgrade and huge amounts of them Zerglings - How the hell should that work out? Even if Zerg exatcly knows what the opponent is doing, it's nearly impossible to get a good Unit-composition. Take Marauder+Hellion for example - even if your a Maphacker and could see everything the Terran is doing, there is simply put no Unit-composition that is at least decent against Marauder+Hellions on Small maps. Or Mech+marines - there is no good unit or Unit-composition to counter that, you have to just be lucky and/or extremely aware of what the Terran is doing, where his Army is etc. and get a hilariously good flank. I guess ppl like DIMAGA and IdrA can pull this off, but not only because they are better than me, but because they are better then almost all other players... And I don't wanna just bash on the Terran-Players, because Protoss are nowhere near more balanced. In Korea, Protoss is said to be the best race and most really good protoss-players practically feel invinsible to Zergs. Zerg just can't really hold of 4-gate-timing attacks without seriously neglecting their economy, all the while Protoss can constantly pump probes and later on expand. it's also ridiculous that every decent Zerg-Unit has soooo strong counter by the Protoss. I mean - the timing-windows are REALLY small to get the counter-units out to defend 4-warpgate-push (hydras), but to get the counter-unit (Corruptor) to the Protoss' counter-unit (Collossi) out in time, is just ridiculous. Protoss could just stay on Warpgate-tech and have nothing to fear from the Zerg, but Zerg constantly has to play catch-up: defend, tech, macro-up etc. - IT'S A FREAKING CHORE... Don't even get me started on forward-2-gate pressure (not proxy; not all-in) on smaller Maps... Standard tactics that Zerg had to punish heavy aggression by the opposing players don't exist anymore either. Try to make a backstab with Speedlings when 1 Unit completely shuts it down (Force-Field)! What good are the Zerglings Speed, when they can't do backstabs and runby's, I tell you what good it is: They get to get assraped faster! | ||
cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
On September 07 2010 17:35 Wolfpox wrote: They are base-raiders, plain and simple. The problem is that fucking Tech Lab that unlocks EVERYTHING. Make them build a seperate god damn building for Mauraders and Reapers, the same way you need to for the Ghost Academy. Call it the Merc Post and put the upgrades for the units in there instead of the Tech Lab. That's what they were going to do, but then they were like, "no let's make it easier so they can rush these units, but let's not give any half-decent equivalent to Zerg, even though Protoss can warp units anywhere they want." Really, with the Reaper/Marauder rape advantage, this all boils down to the Terran tech tree being so ridiculously flexible and advantageous, whereas Zerg has to build a new building for every unit and then research the upgrades if they dont want them to suck balls. That's called race features, terran can unlock more things easier, but they can't get 20 of them right when they unlock it, nothing wrong there. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
5s off the Zealot, again, isn't going to really affect anything unless you're just spamming the things. It'll make Korean 4-Gate attempts more popular, because 2-Gate pushes were already not particularly effective, but if its anything like what happened in Beta that week they 'accidentally' put the 38s build time in, it'll shift the matchup into mass Stalkers, Immortals and Sentries, which is actually a ton of fun. Lots of reward for micro, defenders advantage and less Collossus rushing because Zealots being out of the picture leaves a wide window of opportunity to hammer a Collossus rusher with Stalkers and Immortals. | ||
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Aeris130
Sweden14 Posts
On September 08 2010 00:32 Irrational_Animal wrote: I really think that "the game is still evolving" argument is pretty defeasible as the game might still be pretty young but there assumably never has been a more active scene in a rts. There are about 2 money tournaments a day, top players are quickly switching to pro-status and thus train 6 and more hours per day and there is also a widespread rts-knowledge as many peope have been following bw and wc3 for countless years. So because of that a set of standard strategies now have mostly settled and we are likely to see small refinemts in the matchups but surely no more magical counters to 4Gate All-in or MMM. This is my biggest gripe with balancing nowadays. It's no longer 1995, people. We have the internet, forums, websites, streamers streaming 24 hours a day. The competetive gaming scene (not just starcraft) no longer consists of local homogeneous communities whos only gamplay input comes once a year when the asians fly over for the world championships to teach the rest of the world how to play. Strategies evolve at a raging speed (as evident by how fast the 5 rax reaper build spread), especially when the games iterate on previous versions. Another modern example of this is Street Fighter IV. When it came out, lots of people shunned any idea of balancing patches, saying that Street Fighter II / III's gameplay evolved for several years. But so far, not that much has changed. Sure, the balance has evened out a bit, but what was good when SFIV came out, is still what's good today (and the characters that does not have access to said "good" elements, while still being able to win, will have an upphill battle), and simply tweaking a few numbers isn't going to change that. In SC2, being able to deny the opponent from getting into your base for the first 10 minutes while you are free to tech into a number of builds while denying scouting is what's good (talking zvp, zvt here). This includes abusing chokes, edges and walloffs, with the current map pool. It's a fundamental advantage that require some pretty broad changes, not just a couple of seconds worth of build time added or subtracted. | ||
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SoFFacet
United States101 Posts
No one even considers the possibility that someone has taken the time to come to a thoughtful conclusion that doesn't 100% match up with theirs. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:17 cArn- wrote: That's called race features, terran can unlock more things easier, but they can't get 20 of them right when they unlock it, nothing wrong there. So if Zerg had the race Feature that the Queen could fly around the Map and throw Nukes at you from the start, that would be okay? You sir, are an idiot! There aer race-features that are simply better than other and thus far, the Zergs race-features suck. Look at the creep-mechanic: Instead of it giving you an advantage, your at a disadvantage if you don't have it. Okay, that's not the Mechanics fault, but the fact that Zerg Units are too slow off-creep. It's also very APM-consuming to spread creap and I think that's nothing bad (I've never complained about Zerg being hard to play, but at least I want a reward for a race that's clearly the most APM-consuming), but when Terran just has to scan or get ravens out and the protoss just needs an observer and A-Move to completely destroy that advantage you've earned by investing a lot of APM, it get's kinda annoying. And for the other one with being able to unlock Units with 1 building - are you kidding me? 1) Firstly, Zergs Structures are kinda expensive and take long to build (look at the spire - it takes forever) 2) Larvae are also used to pump Drones - that makes a huge difference! You can't just pump all the Units you want out of them, so just like Terran and Protoss have to build more Warpgates/barracks, Zerg has to build more Hatcheries and queens to be able to keep the Macro smooth. 3) Atm. there is nearly no timing-window that can be abused by the fact that you can build a buttload of a certain Unit at a time right after they get unlocked: - Mutas take way too long to build and are so expensive, you'll never have enough Gas to spend it all on Mutas, most of the time, you'll have way more Larvas than you could possibly use on Mutas. - Hydras barely get out to hold off rushes and again, you won't have enough Gas to just pump out a ridiculous number of Hydras at once. (*Exeption is the 5RR, but that's so soon and 1-base, it's nothing IMBA you'll use your 5 larva immediately for roaches as soon as the roach-warren finishes) ---> this is basically true for every zerg-Unit, there are just no good timing-attacks for Zerg that base on saving Larva and then producing a lot of one Unit which just has been unlocked, completely negating your aforementioned race-feature bonus. I think you would've known that if you ever played Zerg or ever tried to figure out how MU's work out if you are playing Zerg. | ||
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comis
United States333 Posts
On September 07 2010 14:51 Perscienter wrote:
So it's winky-face fine that a 150 gas unit counters everything Zerg can throw at it on the ground short of 25 baneling? I've been playing P recently and at least they have storm - PF isn't that big of a deal. But it is by far the most overpowered unit in the T arsenal in TvZ, and if anything it doesn't get nearly ENOUGH QQ because most Terran overly make OC instead of PF. On September 08 2010 01:08 Demarini wrote: I just want to add one thing to this topic. I've seen a couple posts about 2 gate and 4warpgate timing push. Saying that is op is straight up blasphemy. You're just mad because you can't fast expand and mass up WAY more units than a Toss without an expansion ever could. You're original plan to FE was ruined, and it makes the game more difficult. You have to sacrifice your economy(like a Toss would have to) to keep up. Yes you're in a reactionary stance, but a 4warpgate/2gate is extremely easy to scout, and fairly easy to defend. Reaper/Marauder vs. Zerg is incredibly op because of what units can be built. Tech lab for reapers, cool, he has to invest in loads of roaches, and then when that happens, you just bust out the Marauders like nothing, and if you kept most of your reapers alive, it is just a horrible rape fest and there is nothing Zerg can do. You're clearly bad at 4 gate. 2 gate into 4 gate in PvZ is NOT an all-in and does NOT hurt the P player's economy. It is by far the best opening designed to delay the Z expansion and economy (if it doesn't outright win) allowing P to establish his expansion and a quick transition into HT or Colossi for another attack before the Zerg has recovered from the initial push. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:38 comis wrote: So it's winky-face fine that a 150 gas unit counters everything Zerg can throw at it on the ground short of 25 baneling? I've been playing P recently and at least they have storm - PF isn't that big of a deal. But it is by far the most overpowered unit in the T arsenal in TvZ, and if anything it doesn't get nearly ENOUGH QQ because most Terran overly make OC instead of PF. PF's are the reason every noob-Terran can keep up in expansions with the Zerg. They just throw down a PF and a few Turrets and forget about the expansion. They don't have to defend it, they don't have to be too careful when putting the expansion up (fly there and Upgrade - very small timing-window to punish the Terran as Zerg), they can take Island-expansions very easily without having to think about how to get Units over there if it gets attacked etc. They also don't have to worry about splitting up their Army and can just troll around the Map in one big ball of racial design-disaster. This completely negates the Zergs mobility-bonus as well. A Mech-Ball that is walking around killing off the Zergs expansions without Zerg being able to face them head-on and not die, should be punished for it, but Zerg simply can't. And it's even more horrible on those small Blizzard Maps. Terran can just get his half of the Map and defend having the easiest time of their lives, get maxed out and completely raped the Zergs army. Terran was the strongest maxed-out race in BW, but in SC2, it's so ridiculously imbalanced, I have nightmares about it.... | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On September 07 2010 14:51 Perscienter wrote: Appendixes (just because I'm posting): 1. The changes in detail
2. Things, that look patchy
I disagree with a lot of what you're saying. First of all I think your header is terrible. You complain about major balance changes and you mention one single change that would make a bigger difference than the complete coming patch - removing stim from marauders. About Reapers: Zerg doesn't have that many different ways to open a game. They have been tested and it turns out that opening Reapers puts you ahead against a Zerg compared to pretty much everything else. I'm a 1200ish Zerg btw. While the Zealot nerf will make PvT harder (and PvZ of course but I think zealot heavy openings are too strong at the moment so I'm fine with that) it is somewhat cancelled out by the fact that it is against Zealots that Tanks have gotten their major nerf. And lastly I don't think these changes are "major balance changes". I still think 5 rax Reapers or something like it will be an extremely popular opening, I still think tanks will do great against Zerg and while it will have a big effect on Protoss the warp gate nerf will cancel it out (if just a little, I think Protoss will have an easier time against Terran now). I think Blizzard could make much larger balance changes and Terran would still do extremely well against Zerg on a high level. | ||
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
I disagree with a lot of what you're saying. First of all I think your header is terrible. You complain about major balance changes and you mention one single change that would make a bigger difference than the complete coming patch - removing stim from marauders. NO. He mentioned that stim should be removed but something should be added for the marauder elsewhere, which wouldn't necessarily amount to a nerf, just a change to the unit dynamic. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
More time between waves of Zealots just makes life a hell of a lot harder. | ||
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Opinion
United States236 Posts
Players? Players will always have ideas about what should be changed. This will never go away and is a natural part of every gaming community. You will never convince the fan base that all is fine and to stop discussing changes. Blizzard? They will make changes as they see fit on the time line that they feel is most appropriate. They obvious don't make knee jerk changes since Beta has ended. There have been no balance patches and none of the changes in the upcoming patch are "severe". Lay off the theorycraft threads if they are causing you stress. Suggestions like "Durr, hurr remove Marauders and tanks from game!! Make lings climb walls" are not going to happen, it is just players letting off steam. The psychological trauma induced by "nerfs" is stunning. I have no idea why players are so personally and emotionally attached to temporary game states and transient unit damage. Things change, especially early on, get used to it. | ||
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Xog2
United States97 Posts
The two build time tweaks will have no affect on the metagame. The only balance change is the tank nerf, and we can all agree that it is well deserved. | ||
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DreXxiN
United States494 Posts
On September 08 2010 02:15 Xog wrote: QQ more. The two build time tweaks will have no affect on the metagame. The only balance change is the tank nerf, and we can all agree that it is well deserved. The strangest thing might be how absolutely little tanks were used in GSL and recent tournament events that would even correlate an effect with the patch....Pretty much 0. | ||
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Xog2
United States97 Posts
On September 08 2010 02:25 DreXxiN wrote: The strangest thing might be how absolutely little tanks were used in GSL and recent tournament events that would even correlate an effect with the patch....Pretty much 0. I would attribute this to the prevalence of barracks --> starport builds in TvP and to the magic box trick that weakened mech vs. Zerg. | ||
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Packerz4life
United States4 Posts
I find it unfair that zerg can have a very difficult time FE (especially against reapers/bunk rushes) when its probably the most sensible zerg opening, but zergs cant do anything to harass a terran or protoss opening. The fact that 2/3 races can wall themselves in and not have to worry about any early attacks in zvt and zvp is my biggest problem with the game so far. The only other problem I have with zerg is the lack of flexable strategies as compared to the manyy different builds and openings of terran and protoss. As far as units go, i would say for the most part they seem somewhat balanced. People complain about ultras and broodlords, but the fact is they are so difficult to tech to, so if you let a zerg opponent over expand and tech to them, its your fault anyway. I also dont like the phoenix ability to lift units, since it takes much longer to tech to AA units as zerg compared to the other races. Another ability i dislike is the forcefield, since it really makes microing for protoss players much easier Im sure plety of people will argue with what i've said but i honestly dont care, it's just the way i feel at this point. dont look at it like complaining, because i like the game exactly as it is right now, but if i had it my way, these would be a few things that i feel may help balance the game a bit | ||
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TelecoM
United States10671 Posts
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Zeroes
United States1102 Posts
Countering reapers isn't as hard as many people think. I disagree with this statement. If you do counter reapers you are way behind because terran was building up his economy during the mid game. | ||
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exile
Canada65 Posts
Countering reapers isn't as hard as many people think. Spread the creep carefully. Fly your overlords to key-positions, so that your defence force can welcome the reapers. The queens have to be controlled very tightly, so that they don't run into their doom. You must have some practice and a good countering build order, though. Nice! You just completely said the opposite of your original point. | ||
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