EPTBlaming it all on the maps is kind of weak, honestly. It's like trying to find the magic hidden angle when no, it really is what most people keep saying.
Why it is too early to make severe balance changes - Page 9
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kingcomrade
United States115 Posts
Blaming it all on the maps is kind of weak, honestly. It's like trying to find the magic hidden angle when no, it really is what most people keep saying. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
Tvz balance has been discussed to death and I don't really care since I don't play that matchup anymore. Also there's a general theme of zerg being pigeonholed into a certain playstyle where terran and protoss aren't. With zerg, you win a long macro game or you go allin early, there's no middle ground. It's just way harder to play zerg when to win your games are always going to be 20+ minutes. That's probably a big reason why they're so unpopular; you're practically forced to play long turtle macro games. Would you like to win in 25 minutes and put in a lot of effort to do it? Or would you like to 4 gate and win in 10 and be in good shape even if you don't? | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
Really - look at the post above, which I totally agree with; that's the reason why it's not too soon for changes, but rather too late. ppl don't seem to get how frustrating it is to play an underpowered race, to loose against clearly inferior opponents, to not seem to be able to come up with a decent strategy etc. And it's not just solved with the phrase: "If you think Zerg is too underpowered - go play Terran or Protoss"! Some ppl don't have the time or energy to totally commit to a new race and maybe there are even players out there who just prefer the Zerg-race, because of whatever reason and it's unfair und to be honest a douche-move by Blizzard to keep the Zerg's waiting for a much needed Patch with changes that would actually help Zerg to be able to get into the lategame safer and to just have more fun playing the game. And I don't think you have to win every game to have fun, but If you loose to the same strategy over and over and nothing you try seems to really work, even though you might be the superior player, it just get's annoying after a while. If you look at the ladder atm, protoss and Terran-players that are on 1000+ Points in Diamond, are 80% ppl who just know how to effectively abuse their race and that's why there are so few Zergs high up there, because you can't abuse Zergs - you have to actually just play WAY better! | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10845 Posts
4 Gate with +1 into Expansion into Colossi into GG... Even a monkey can play it and it's just to strong for the "skill" needed to pull it off... Hey dude, i'm like Protoss and all i do is watch that little button down on the screen and i'm like "w" -> "SSSSSSSS" -> "w" -> "SSSSSS" with some Z and E's and stuff... | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 08 2010 16:54 Velr wrote: I have zero clue about Protoss and can just randomly beat Mid-Diamond-Zergs witheout too big problems, something has gone horribly wrong. Protoss is so fucking easy to play to a decent level, it scares the shit out of me when facing a Protoss (i'm Z), because if he's actually good the game most likely will be a nightmare.... 4 Gate with +1 into Expansion into Colossi into GG... Even a monkey can play it and it's just to strong for the "skill" needed to pull it off... Hey dude, i'm like Protoss and all i do is watch that little button down on the screen and i'm like "w" -> "SSSSSSSS" -> "w" -> "SSSSSS" with some Z and E's and stuff... Protoss is the easy race - just like in SCBW. Pair that with the race being OP and u have Protoss in SC2. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On September 08 2010 17:15 kickinhead wrote: Protoss is the easy race - just like in SCBW. Pair that with the race being OP and u have Protoss in SC2. No, terran is the easiest race unlike SCBW. Par that with the race being OP and you ahve terran in SC2. See how easy and fragile this argument is? Please bring anything useful or don't at all. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On September 08 2010 16:54 Velr wrote: I have zero clue about Protoss and can just randomly beat Mid-Diamond-Zergs witheout too big problems, something has gone horribly wrong. actually, that sentence describes perfectly why terran and protoss are overpowered vs zerg (or why zerg is so much harder to play than the other two races). if you have a rough clue of how to execute a 4gate zeal/sentry or m&m push, you will easily crush 600-800 diamond zerg players with a very very good win rate (75%+ against 600-800 easily doable). i'm 100% sure that if dimaga or idra off-raced against other high-ranked zerg players, they would get a good amount of wins too, even though basically totally sucking with the race. with zerg, something like that would just absolutely never be possible. you won't see a SINGLE terran or protoss who "roughly knows how to execute a certain zerg bo" and crush 600-800 diamond terran or protoss players or some terran or toss pro who offraces as zerg and beats terrans and toss if he doesn't have a large amount of playtime with zerg beforehand. I'm would be fine with zerg being so much harder than the other races, if there actually was some kind of reward for it. but there isn't. on top of it you'll still lose to one of the two million possible cheeses even though being a lot better than your opponent. | ||
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sleepytime
Denmark122 Posts
On September 07 2010 15:26 Ndugu wrote: I agree in spirit. At the same time, I think the game is young and we can look at with fresh, theory-crafted eyes. Right now, we can question, "is it okay that X beats X?" In the future, that will just be how things are and all discussion will be based on how to deal with it. Think about how obnoxious it would be if someone started questioning the basis of a certain matchup for Brood War now. My biggest concern is that, since its easier, only a few playstyles will end up being viable in each matchup and Blizzard will work to maintain a 50% win ratio. That means, if Protoss is winning 50% of the game versus Terran, no way units that don't currently get used in that matchup will get buffed-- don't want to ruin that perfect 50%! I mean, look at Ultralisks, they got buffed to high heaven because Zerg was losing. Carriers suck worse than Ultralisks ever did, and they never got buffed because Protoss has always been strong. I guess its kinda hard to make my point but, in essence: While the game is young we NEED to try and examine the game's balance and push it in a positive direction. Obviously we need to accept that the Standard Phoenix/Void Ray opening of 2011 will make Marauders completely useless and anything but OP, but that doesn't change us from trying to think, look, and theorcrafy as best as we can while the game is still in flux. Brood War had an accepted balance of lots of OP things balancing each other out. Lots of you like that. I don't. I would like to see lots of different strategies and unit compositions work in various match ups and situations. That doesn't mean I want Void rays to no longer pwn buildings or Marauders to no longer pwn everything on the ground (  ), but I want units that don't see any play to get looked at before they get forgotten.I think Brood War was balanced in a weird way. Like you had to have certain type of unit in order the make the matchup balanced. Who would go Bio as Terran against Protoss? Pretty much only the Deep Six cheese strategy uses Bio. And Mech was basically not the best choice against Zerg. Mech could work, but not the best choice. In SC2 however, Bio can be viable against Protoss. The MMM ball however is a bit too strong. | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On September 08 2010 19:53 Apolo wrote: No, terran is the easiest race unlike SCBW. Par that with the race being OP and you ahve terran in SC2. See how easy and fragile this argument is? Please bring anything useful or don't at all. It's pretty generally accepted that Protoss is the easiest race for beginners in SC2. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Zerg is the weakest at low level, i'm quite sure about that. | ||
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Neuuubeh
138 Posts
On September 07 2010 21:57 PimpMobeel wrote: I agree with the pawn analogy. Battlecruisers especially i would think needed a small buff, they are already so badly countered if spotted. Likewise I would think carriers and mothership need small buffs too, especially the carrier - the only thing going for the carrier is that it beats vikings; everything else that can shoot air pretty much owns it. Zerg t3 on the other hand is quite the force. WTF are you talking about?????? Battlecruisers needing a buff? These are EASILY the most efficient units in game. Seriously, huge dps vs BOTH ground and air, massive 3 armor, extremely big hp pool, ok speed. AND Yamato (ty for correction), which kinda makes short work of any direct counter. and oh, they can be repaired. This is the MOST imba unit currently there, thing is, terrans whine about oh how slow they are to get when in fact they are definately faster than getting t3 zerg units out. Carrier beating vikings? Zerg t3 quite the force? Really? Slow ass broodlords, which cost almost as much as a Battlecruiser, yet have 2 times less hp and cant attack air? 1 armor??? WHAT GAME ARE YOU PLAYING??? The more I read in these forums, the dumber I feel. Sorry, but thats really the way I feel | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On September 08 2010 21:34 Neuuubeh wrote: WTF are you talking about?????? Battlecruisers needing a buff? These are EASILY the most efficient units in game. Seriously, huge dps vs BOTH ground and air, massive 6 armor, extremely big hp pool, ok speed. AND Yamamoto, which kinda makes short work of any direct counter. and oh, they can be repaired. This is the MOST imba unit currently there, thing is, terrans whine about oh how slow they are to get when in fact they are definately faster than getting t3 zerg units out. Carrier beating vikings? Zerg t3 quite the force? Really? Slow ass broodlords, which cost almost as much as a Battlecruiser, yet have 2 times less hp and cant attack air? 1 armor??? WHAT GAME ARE YOU PLAYING??? The more I read in these forums, the dumber I feel. Sorry, but thats really the way I feel You just called Yamato "Yamamoto". Which I guess is some japanese character in some show, but not the ultimate weapon of the BCs. | ||
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Neuuubeh
138 Posts
 . I will edit my silly mistake, hope you are happy now.Doesn't change anything. A flying all purpose unit with a high dps ranged attack, ultralisk-like armor and even more hp; with a powerful high damage attack "skill"... And we have terran players telling us tier 3 zerg is godly and everything pales in comparison? PS. And you dont even have to RESEARCH anything for that 3 armor.. | ||
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
On September 08 2010 22:17 Salteador Neo wrote: You just called Yamato "Yamamoto". Which I guess is some japanese character in some show, but not the ultimate weapon of the BCs. Quoted for posterity, you are not getting of that hook with a ninja edit you historyless brat. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On September 08 2010 22:17 Salteador Neo wrote: You just called Yamato "Yamamoto". Which I guess is some japanese character in some show, but not the ultimate weapon of the BCs. ... or he might be a very important historical figure masterminding the attack on Pearl Harbor that started the engagement of the US in World War II. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto The biggest battleship of the japanese navy was the Yamato [class], so maybe there is the source of the "confusion". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamato | ||
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Neuuubeh
138 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On September 08 2010 20:06 heishe wrote: actually, that sentence describes perfectly why terran and protoss are overpowered vs zerg (or why zerg is so much harder to play than the other two races). if you have a rough clue of how to execute a 4gate zeal/sentry or m&m push, you will easily crush 600-800 diamond zerg players with a very very good win rate (75%+ against 600-800 easily doable). i'm 100% sure that if dimaga or idra off-raced against other high-ranked zerg players, they would get a good amount of wins too, even though basically totally sucking with the race. with zerg, something like that would just absolutely never be possible. you won't see a SINGLE terran or protoss who "roughly knows how to execute a certain zerg bo" and crush 600-800 diamond terran or protoss players or some terran or toss pro who offraces as zerg and beats terrans and toss if he doesn't have a large amount of playtime with zerg beforehand. I'm would be fine with zerg being so much harder than the other races, if there actually was some kind of reward for it. but there isn't. on top of it you'll still lose to one of the two million possible cheeses even though being a lot better than your opponent. This post articulates it perfectly, especially regarding terran/protoss to zerg carryover vs zerg carryover to terran/protoss. I think a fundamental problem with sc2 right now is that there are too many "build order Russian roulette" situations, especially in vs z matchups. Zerg can take the bullet to the head by picking the wrong build order and lose before the scouting drone is out, but if they "win", they just get to stay alive and play the game. There are too many ways for mechanically terrible players to completely circumvent ever being put in mechanically challenging situations. In scbw you couldn't get very far with bad mechanics. You could win some cheese games, but scouting and countering cheesy builds, which are cheesy because they don't require any substantial mechanical skills to execute, was a far more straightforward process and didn't demand as humongous of a sacrifice to do so. Playing "safe" is punished too severely in sc2; it's impossible to force your opponent to play a straightforward game. In scbw this wasn't as true, and "safe" builds used to direct the flow of the game toward a more straightforward mechanical game wouldn't put you hopelessly far behind. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 09 2010 12:55 Drowsy wrote: This post articulates it perfectly, especially regarding terran/protoss to zerg carryover vs zerg carryover to terran/protoss. I think a fundamental problem with sc2 right now is that there are too many "build order Russian roulette" situations, especially in vs z matchups. Zerg can take the bullet to the head by picking the wrong build order and lose before the scouting drone is out, but if they "win", they just get to stay alive and play the game. There are too many ways for mechanically terrible players to completely circumvent ever being put in mechanically challenging situations. In scbw you couldn't get very far with bad mechanics. You could win some cheese games, but scouting and countering cheesy builds, which are cheesy because they don't require any substantial mechanical skills to execute, was a far more straightforward process and didn't demand as humongous of a sacrifice to do so. Playing "safe" is punished too severely in sc2; it's impossible to force your opponent to play a straightforward game. In scbw this wasn't as true, and "safe" builds used to direct the flow of the game toward a more straightforward mechanical game wouldn't put you hopelessly far behind. After 2 weeks of not playing any Terran at all (switched to Zerg - YES, I actually did...), I played a BO3 in a Tournament Quarterfinals against a 800+ Diamond Zerg. It was soooo freaking ridiculous: I made soo many mistakes, had no clue what I was doing but totally pwn him just with a straight-up attack. Here are some of my hilarous mistakes I made: - Accidentally scanned my base when I wanted to make a supply-calldown - Accidentally researched Concussive Shells and not Nitro packs - Because the opponent chose Steppes of war, I thought he was gonna 7pool me or sth, so I built a Barracks at about 10, then just built a rafinery when I thought was right - I just had a total mess of a build-order that didn't make sense at all. --> And this all in one game! I just won with a simple Stimmed Marauder+Hellion timing attack about 10 mins into the game and there was nothing the Zerg could've done to stop me. I mean c'mon - It seems I can't lose as Terran in TvZ even if I wanted to! After the games I was ashamed of myself btw, but I just didn't want to play a ZvZ in a tournament with a big prize-pool, just cuz ZvZ is so random... | ||
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
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SuperGnu
Sweden240 Posts
[*]Ultralisk damage lowering and removal of the ram: I completely agree on the removal. I don't think that the damage lowering will have a large impact. It's ok. It will destroy their ability to be used as fortification breakers. Yea who the F cares if they do splash on buildings when there is like 2 buildings affected, supplies and pylons... Rest of the time they will feel like VERY big zerglings on a building. | ||
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