EPTAlso, I've been seeing these thread basically ever since the release of the game (and even during the beta too). For a while I agreed that it was "too early to judge the balance" but now that the game has been out for over a month, I think the people who have been playing consistently for the last month have a pretty good idea of how units interact and what units could be overpowered/underpowered.
Why it is too early to make severe balance changes - Page 3
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Apollys
United States278 Posts
Also, I've been seeing these thread basically ever since the release of the game (and even during the beta too). For a while I agreed that it was "too early to judge the balance" but now that the game has been out for over a month, I think the people who have been playing consistently for the last month have a pretty good idea of how units interact and what units could be overpowered/underpowered. | ||
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Danze
Australia219 Posts
|-| These players should be paid more attention when discussing the balance of the game. The amount of idiots and players who simply do not have the skill and understanding of the game to produce positive outcomes for themselves looks like this: |---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| These people should not comment on the balance of the game. You have no business in dictating how a delicate system of balance should operate if you cannot understand it. Which brings up an interesting point. Considering Blizzard made WoW a lot easier and catered for the casual player base; do you think it is possible that Blizzard will "dumb down" Sc2 so to speak, and allow the casual/mediocre players to compete with greater ease; as opposed to keeping the game balanced whilst requiring a higher skill cap to perform and achieve balance. I presume this is where the ranking system comes in. However, I do not feel this negates the point. | ||
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Kelekkis
Finland27 Posts
On September 07 2010 17:38 Cade wrote: The post you quoted is great, but your comments seem like the comments of a gold level player. Try playing a few games vs 1400+ level terran players and then come back w/ what you have to say about reapers  Edit) Bolded especially misinformed comments Not a gold player (~900 diamond), but like I said that it could be that I haven't played against good T yet. Creep thing might be a bit over exaggerated, but it is currently how I feel. :p | ||
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RookM
United States45 Posts
And as far as protoss stacking the top ranking at MLG? The main reason that that happened was because all of the terran players mostly practiced TvT rather than TvP; they knew that that matchup was simply more important, so they put more focus into it. It was stated in, I believe, one of the Weapon of Choice casts. The fact that the protoss pulled through there makes me think that TvP is fairly close balance-wise. But the fact that terran players were focusing on TvT says volumes about what they feel is a threat to their chances. Hint: it wasn't protoss or zerg. They aren't making severe balance changes. Five seconds longer on a build time is not severe. And nowhere did anyone say "this is permanent and will be like this forever." Really, the only point I agree with the OP on, is nerfing everything is a bad way to balance. It's a good thing we haven't seen the entire list of balance changes, because only a handful seem to be more than enough to make people go nuts. And just because you're a random player doesn't make you more qualified to talk on balance than anyone else. It (theoretically) makes you less biased, yes. But more qualified? Absolutely not. | ||
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
edit: While i agree that it still needs some time to fully show the problems and things that actually work well, it just seems that you seem to have added a little bias to this. Of blizzards changes, the only one you agree with is the Zerg nerf? That's what's confusing. Marauder stim should be changed, whether it's fire rate, lose mor health, i don't know, but 5 seconds on a reaper shouldn't make too much of a difference, but it can make enough. | ||
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
I dont want to insult any1 but this reaper crap is just a fucking l2p issue...Watch the replay below of FruitSeller vs AugustWerra (ye its a 5 rax reaper). Look at the economy of both players and nr of drones. If you saw that at the finals of IEM now Blizzard would nerf the zergling build time or something like that. http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/873 | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
On September 07 2010 18:25 sadyque wrote: Idra is a great player but stop pointing out the IEM finals to support reaper imbalance. Idra had no ideea how to defend properly against a rather new build put in practice PERFECTLY by Morrow. I know that zerg players have the impression that reapers move around by themselves but if you look at TvZ reaper plays the terran uses more apm than the zerg. I dont want to insult any1 but this reaper crap is just a fucking l2p issue...Watch the replay below of FruitSeller vs AugustWerra (ye its a 5 rax reaper). Look at the economy of both players and nr of drones. If you saw that at the finals of IEM now Blizzard would nerf the zergling build time or something like that. http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/873 reaper a lsp issue? and your argument is: terran player uses more apm when microing reapers than a zerg trying to defend? that's just weak. Why would a zerg spam click on the same location if a single correct click will do the job. The reaper, on the other hand, has much more potential for micro than zerglings and queen that is trying to hold them off. If faster micro will enbale me to shut-down reapers easier, then no doubt you would find zergs having very high apm when dealing with reapers. Top terrans have repeatedly stated that zerg is behind (i.e. terran is ahead) just by a zerg being forced to stay on one base if a T gets early reapers. You are clearly relatively inexperienced, and does not play zerg at a serious level, please know what you are on about before telling zergs to l2p. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 07 2010 18:25 sadyque wrote: Idra is a great player but stop pointing out the IEM finals to support reaper imbalance. Idra had no ideea how to defend properly against a rather new build put in practice PERFECTLY by Morrow. I know that zerg players have the impression that reapers move around by themselves but if you look at TvZ reaper plays the terran uses more apm than the zerg. I dont want to insult any1 but this reaper crap is just a fucking l2p issue...Watch the replay below of FruitSeller vs AugustWerra (ye its a 5 rax reaper). Look at the economy of both players and nr of drones. If you saw that at the finals of IEM now Blizzard would nerf the zergling build time or something like that. http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/873 so a non zerg player(i can only presume you dont play zerg) is telling all zerg players to learn to play? wait perhaps the answer to beating the 5 rax reaper build is nydus worms? just because you can show 1 replay of the 5 rax reaper not demolishing a zerg player doesn't mean anything. BUT WAIT idra only lost 2 times from the 3 times morrow used reapers on him so there must be no problem at all. | ||
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
On September 07 2010 18:43 TyrantPotato wrote: so a non zerg player(i can only presume you dont play zerg) is telling all zerg players to learn to play? wait perhaps the answer to beating the 5 rax reaper build is nydus worms? just because you can show 1 replay of the 5 rax reaper not demolishing a zerg player doesn't mean anything. BUT WAIT idra only lost 2 times from the 3 times morrow used reapers on him so there must be no problem at all. Again with the Idra matches. Thats all you have? One set? Just one set? Thats all the proof you need? Has any of you considered that morrow won cuz he (at least in those games) was actually THE BETTER player? I seem to recall that he beat Idra in one macro game too on Idra's turf. And its not just one replay. Check the latest tvz's and you will see many zerg players easily countering reapers and even getting ahead of the Terran. So Morrow said reapers are op after the matches. So thats one man's opionion. Contrary to popular belief if 1-2 pros state that something is OP it isnt necessarily true.... | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On September 07 2010 18:52 sadyque wrote: Again with the Idra matches. Thats all you have? One set? Just one set? Thats all the proof you need? Has any of you considered that morrow won cuz he (at least in those games) was actually THE BETTER player? I seem to recall that he beat Idra in one macro game too on Idra's turf. And its not just one replay. Check the latest tvz's and you will see many zerg players easily countering reapers and even getting ahead of the Terran. So Morrow said reapers are op after the matches. So thats one man's opionion. Contrary to popular belief if 1-2 pros state that something is OP it isnt necessarily true.... but this time it is... 'nuff said! | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 07 2010 18:52 sadyque wrote: Again with the Idra matches. Thats all you have? One set? Just one set? Thats all the proof you need? Has any of you considered that morrow won cuz he (at least in those games) was actually THE BETTER player? I seem to recall that he beat Idra in one macro game too on Idra's turf. And its not just one replay. Check the latest tvz's and you will see many zerg players easily countering reapers and even getting ahead of the Terran. So Morrow said reapers are op after the matches. So thats one man's opionion. Contrary to popular belief if 1-2 pros state that something is OP it isnt necessarily true.... you obvoiusly misread my post. i never claimed idras game is the proof to reaper imbalance. but wait is that all you have? when ever some one even mentions IDRA you go on the attack. thinking if i keep attacking and attacking they wont nerf my race. check all the latest zvt replays. dont claim something unless you provide links. all these zvt replays where zergs already have the answer to 5 rax reapers that have mysteriously avoided all the zerg players who are looking for them yet you one person has access to them all? hmmm tell me, are we going to take the word of people who play the game FOR A LIVING, or you, someone who is telling us to l2p? if a professional says something is OP, even after themselves using it, obvoiusly something must be up, otherwise they would be saying it. but again, where are the links to all these hidden ZvT replays where Reapers are no longer a problem to zerg? | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
Why it is too early to make far-reaching balance changes I don't see anything on that list that could reasonably be described as "far-reaching". All of the changes are small and subtle. None of them are "severe" in any way. Instead of showing sophisticated analyses, the whole character profile pages are full of flashy non-sense. I can't look up what the race win percentages on the ladder maps are, but I know that once some freaking medivacs healed 5000 hit-points in one of my games. I'm really angry at Blizzard that I have to look for smart kid's webpages to be able to gather sufficient data. Do you honestly believe that Blizzard is working off of that kind of data, rather than looking at internally gathered data that they're not making public? High build times really ruin strong units like the carrier, which will be scouted in time and henceforth can't be played as a response. I barely see any off carriers anymore in PvT like in the old game. I don't see carriers being used in SC1 very much either. You occasionally see someone go 2-base Carrier in PvT, but this is generally a pretty all-in-ish move. It's hardly standard play. Not since Flash taught all the Terrans how to absolutely wreck Carriers. Basically... but he does point out Marauder + Stim is rofls I actually don't mind Marauder+Stim. Terrans are all about throwing down massive damage. What I mind is the cost of the Marauder and its Hp. Bump it up to 125/50 or drop its HP down to 75, and you'd have a fine unit. It would still be useful, but it wouldn't be as... suppressing as it currently is. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
rofl i just read your comments on the patch notes. wow youre retarded. Disagree with all nerfs except for the zerg one. Why such troll threads are allowed to stay up? Jeez. | ||
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
On September 07 2010 19:00 TyrantPotato wrote: you obvoiusly misread my post. i never claimed idras game is the proof to reaper imbalance. but wait is that all you have? when ever some one even mentions IDRA you go on the attack. thinking if i keep attacking and attacking they wont nerf my race. check all the latest zvt replays. dont claim something unless you provide links. all these zvt replays where zergs already have the answer to 5 rax reapers that have mysteriously avoided all the zerg players who are looking for them yet you one person has access to them all? hmmm tell me, are we going to take the word of people who play the game FOR A LIVING, or you, someone who is telling us to l2p? if a professional says something is OP, even after themselves using it, obvoiusly something must be up, otherwise they would be saying it. but again, where are the links to all these hidden ZvT replays where Reapers are no longer a problem to zerg? I dont tell people to l2p based on my play skills  . Im a 900pts diamond terran. That doesnt justify me telling people to do shit .On the other hand i watch all ...and i do mean ALL (at least all i can find :D) replays from 3-4 rep sites and TL for every TvX games. Surprisingly lately i see games starting with 3rax reapers 5 rax reapers countered and pwned. The replay i linked was one i rememberd of the top of my head cuz i watched it last night. And dont say that people who play for a living said that reapers are op. Its just Morrow who said that. And i dont remember anyone annointing him the god of Stracraft or something...Oh ya...Tarson said that reapers are Op too...also at the IEM but he got his ass kicked every time he used them.. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 07 2010 18:25 sadyque wrote: I dont want to insult any1 but this reaper crap is just a fucking l2p issue... now you say On September 07 2010 19:23 sadyque wrote: I dont tell people to l2p based on my play skills . Im a 900pts diamond terran. That doesnt justify me telling people to do shit .if you are going to argue. keep consistant. btw how did i guess you were terran | ||
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BBMorti
Denmark242 Posts
Terran players asking zerg players to ltp is frankly just pathetic.. why is such trolling even allowed? | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
In order for Starcraft II to succeed, it needs to be played for a long time. In order for it to be played for a long time, it needs to be fun and interesting to watch. 5rax Reaper is anything but. The thing that made BW such a fucking INCREDIBLE game was that all races were fun and interesting to watch. You watch ZvT in BW, it's pressure with lings into counterpressure with MM ball into counterpressure with Mutas into counterpressure with Science Vessels into an endgame with Defilers, Cracklings, and Ultras. Every race has its period of aggression, and they can always be aggressive back with a little bit of Muta harass or an MM push into a third. That's pretty exciting. SC2 ZvT? 1rax Reaper aggression into 3rax Reaper aggression into 5rax Reaper aggression with an expo into 5rax Marauder aggression possibly into counterpressure with Mutas, and over half the time the games don't get past that point. That's BORING. Having all the core decisions and initiative lie with one player is a recipe for dull, solitaire-esque games. That needs to be fixed. | ||
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sadyque
Romania251 Posts
On September 07 2010 19:28 TyrantPotato wrote: now you say if you are going to argue. keep consistant. btw how did i guess you were terran You guessed from my scv icon? .....And read the rest of the post too not just the 1st 2 sentences.I dont defend the terran race so that blizz wont nerf them. I seriously doubt blizz reads this forum and if they did im pretty sure they wont be "enlightened" by my posts or yours for that matter. Im actually happy with the 5s reaper+bunker nerf. It does what its supposed to. Nerf the reaper+bunker rush wich forced the zerg to one base a lot longer than they should. This nerf does not affect 5 rax reapers in the slightest and it shouldnt... | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 07 2010 19:38 sadyque wrote: You guessed from my scv icon? .....And read the rest of the post too not just the 1st 2 sentences.I dont defend the terran race so that blizz wont nerf them. I seriously doubt blizz reads this forum and if they did im pretty sure they wont be "enlightened" by my posts or yours for that matter. Im actually happy with the 5s reaper+bunker nerf. It does what its supposed to. Nerf the reaper+bunker rush wich forced the zerg to one base a lot longer than they should. This nerf does not affect 5 rax reapers in the slightest and it shouldnt... >.> the reaper bunker rush is not the biggest problem, the damage that it can do can be reduced dramaticlly via being scouted. the 5 rax reaper cannot have its damage reduced whether it is scouted or not. perhaps you dont understand exactly what that build does to zerg. it makes the zerg player HAVE to constantly make lings to defend against the reapers or else losing right there and then instead of drones, putting them back economiclly. if lings aren't sufficing Roaches are the next option, which is an undesirable tech path and wastes gas. during which the terran can take a free expo and continue to macro up taking the economic lead. blizzard has based the zerg gameplay style on being able to be a base up on the other races. yet this cant happen against the 5 rax reaper when it is executed correctly. so basiclly we zerg players are hoping the terran will miss step their reapers and claw back into the game. NO game should have one side or race rellieing on the other race to make a mistake so they can have a chance at winning the game. | ||
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