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On September 06 2010 04:11 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 03:57 FishForThought wrote:
Back in the medieval days, countries would host 'sport' competitions where they invite everyone to participate. Obviously, most of the time the athletes sponsored by the Kings and nobles would usually win, but rare occasions some stranger (Joe Schmoe) in the country side would come and take the prize. This ignited mass's interest in the sport and competition and gave people hope that they can eventually be that random stranger and this is how true sports are made. Again, wtf are you talking about? Back in the middle ages and renaissance period (12th to 16th centuries) tournaments were open to royalty (Knights, Lords, etc). Your Joe Schmoe peasants weren't welcome as competitors (why the fuck are you still using that term btw). Your biggest gripe seems to be that the level of competition in BW is high, and so if the average person sucks balls he won't make the A-team, boo fucking hoo. You want to break into esports in korea? enter Courage, its hosted once a month. If you win, you get your license, but even if you don't and make it far enough, you can get scouted and offered a position. Up until this bullshit started, which led to uncertainty this past season and thus a smaller draft this year, there have been a fair bit of players drafted due to their skill but not actually winning courage. Teams do have a couple of licenses they can give out a year..
Eh.. google returns: http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/medieval-sports.htm
"Medieval Sports in the Middle Ages - Sporting Contests
Feudalism can be well described as a Pyramid of Power. It was possible for everyone to move higher up the ranks of the pyramid and this is what everyone aspired to do. A Knight who proved valiant in battle or was successful at jousting in tournaments would become wealthy. His wealth could pay for a castle. His importance in the land would increase and he would join the nobility. A peasant who excelled in Medieval sports of the Middle Ages could win a purse at a Sporting contest, gain an important reputation and increased value by his lord and his position in life would improve."
My gripe is actually about winning Courage doesn't actually make you a professional even tho its called a pro-gamer license and it actually derails BW as a esport.
You completely avoided my argument about people wanting to watch the best players and set up a big distraction there. You also kept up the "alienation" red herring even though I explained that the players scouted by KeSPA are top clan players and such -- the most deserving Joe Schmoes. You failed to really address any of my points.
And you really, really sound like a plant, all the more so when all of your posts are about the Gretech/KeSPA dispute. You're also much too smooth and deliberate in the way you obfuscate.
Actually, I didn't avoid your argument, I agreed with it but I added the fact that people want to see new faces as well. Alienation isn't really a red-hearing, it an issue i have about Kespa but you seem to accept that alienation is ok as long as you still get to top gamers play, while I feel that alienation hurts the game as esport.
If you are good and get scouted by Kespa, then good for you, luck is on your side. If you are good but don't get scouted then too bad for you. No matter how good you are, you won't be able to participate if you don't get scouted and that goes for even after winning Courage, you still won't be able to participate without a sponsor.
Would you guys feel less 'planty' of me, if i go around other threads and posting one liners "BW is awesome, SC2 sucks, Kespa FTW!!!!11"?
User was temp banned for this post.
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This was at the bottom of a page and might have been overlooked to an extent.
On September 05 2010 20:47 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 16:02 FishForThought wrote:
As for other comments.. do you need a FiFA license to play in the FIFA? Do you need a Tennis license to play Tennis in the French Open? Don't be stupid, pro-gaming license is only there to alienate people from participating in tournaments. If PL didn't have this pro-gaming license, more people would get the chance to compete. Its not about beating "Joe Schmoe#2349273423", its about whether giving "Joe Schmoe#2349273423" a chance to compete. I dunno about you, but I am getting tired of watching the same people play over and over again. How many times do we need to watch Flash vs Jaedong?
If BW is truly the e-sport game, then it doesn't matter if Kespa is there or not, people will still play it. Just like if there are no Tennis, or golf tournaments, people will still play Tennis and golf. I can speak about experience from my home BW community. For years it was quite strong. Enouth strong to get a money needed to send additional player to WCG. Enouth stong to create some good BW players. But not strong enouth to keep those players interested in farther developement. Thats all becouse the system was based on prize hunters and entusiasts, who never had guaranteed a profits from time invested to play. When they had to choose: job or play, school or play, university or play...they almoust always retired. Insured salary is the factor, that can keep those players interested in game/strategy developement, becouse it turns the entertaiment to job. Thats why e-sport needs ProLeague. Thats why we need teams like SKT T1, CJ Entus, Oz or KT. Thats why we need sponsors and organisations like KESPA, even if they are a bunch of idiots. Just look at BW play of "foreigners" and Koreans. "Foreigners" creativity is decent, but the play is nowere near as dynamic as those from pros. Sorry for my poor english 
This is why BW esports took off in Korea and kept going when it didn't elsewhere. The structured proleague and salaries. GSL 2, 3, 4 etc isn't going to cut it, and I see no indication Blizzard is interested in setting up a proleague for SC2
TBH I would love to see Koreans sweep the GSL. If not this one then GSL2, as everyone seems to acknowledge is likely While the first GSL may not produce SC2’s future icons, much more is at stake for many of its qualified players. Everyone saw Nada’s level of SC2 play after just ten days of practice. As former eSTRO player and coach Tester said in an interview, “it would be terrifying if the BW players come [to SC2].” The current SC2 pros know that the clock is ticking, and if the recent breakdowns in Proleague licensing negotiations and rumors of teams disbanding are any indication, a few top flight SC1 progamers could walk in the door to GSL qualifiers as early as next season.
The goal for all SC2 progamers is to win, and win right now.
I would love to see you blabber about alienation when this happens. If your buddies manage to kill off BW and bring the pros to SC2 that will quickly kill off one of the things driving foreigner tournaments and enthusiasm right now: the delusion that they have a chance this time around.
And please, enough with the Chewbacca Defense with all this talk about peasants and medieval times
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On September 06 2010 05:05 FishForThought wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 04:11 moopie wrote:On September 06 2010 03:57 FishForThought wrote:
Back in the medieval days, countries would host 'sport' competitions where they invite everyone to participate. Obviously, most of the time the athletes sponsored by the Kings and nobles would usually win, but rare occasions some stranger (Joe Schmoe) in the country side would come and take the prize. This ignited mass's interest in the sport and competition and gave people hope that they can eventually be that random stranger and this is how true sports are made. Again, wtf are you talking about? Back in the middle ages and renaissance period (12th to 16th centuries) tournaments were open to royalty (Knights, Lords, etc). Your Joe Schmoe peasants weren't welcome as competitors (why the fuck are you still using that term btw). Your biggest gripe seems to be that the level of competition in BW is high, and so if the average person sucks balls he won't make the A-team, boo fucking hoo. You want to break into esports in korea? enter Courage, its hosted once a month. If you win, you get your license, but even if you don't and make it far enough, you can get scouted and offered a position. Up until this bullshit started, which led to uncertainty this past season and thus a smaller draft this year, there have been a fair bit of players drafted due to their skill but not actually winning courage. Teams do have a couple of licenses they can give out a year.. Eh.. google returns: http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/medieval-sports.htm "Medieval Sports in the Middle Ages - Sporting Contests Feudalism can be well described as a Pyramid of Power. It was possible for everyone to move higher up the ranks of the pyramid and this is what everyone aspired to do. A Knight who proved valiant in battle or was successful at jousting in tournaments would become wealthy. His wealth could pay for a castle. His importance in the land would increase and he would join the nobility. A peasant who excelled in Medieval sports of the Middle Ages could win a purse at a Sporting contest, gain an important reputation and increased value by his lord and his position in life would improve." My gripe is actually about winning Courage doesn't actually make you a professional even tho its called a pro-gamer license and it actually derails BW as a esport. Show nested quote +
You completely avoided my argument about people wanting to watch the best players and set up a big distraction there. You also kept up the "alienation" red herring even though I explained that the players scouted by KeSPA are top clan players and such -- the most deserving Joe Schmoes. You failed to really address any of my points.
And you really, really sound like a plant, all the more so when all of your posts are about the Gretech/KeSPA dispute. You're also much too smooth and deliberate in the way you obfuscate.
Actually, I didn't avoid your argument, I agreed with it but I added the fact that people want to see new faces as well. Alienation isn't really a red-hearing, it an issue i have about Kespa but you seem to accept that alienation is ok as long as you still get to top gamers play, while I feel that alienation hurts the game as esport. If you are good and get scouted by Kespa, then good for you, luck is on your side. If you are good but don't get scouted then too bad for you. No matter how good you are, you won't be able to participate if you don't get scouted and that goes for even after winning Courage, you still won't be able to participate without a sponsor. Would you guys feel less 'planty' of me, if i go around other threads and posting one liners "BW is awesome, SC2 sucks, Kespa FTW!!!!11"?
Those wouldn't be progamers, peasents weren't allowed to compete with royalty. This isn't A Knight's Tale. Sporting contest != tournament. Your peasants would have their bnet, progamers their iccup.
And if you win courage, you will more than likely get an offer to be drafted to a team and work your way up. As others mentioned before, its actually easier to break into than mainstream sports where you don't even have a Courage-like event to show your skills at, and have to rely on hoping college scouts spot you (assuming you're playing in a college team), or try the random open here and there (which aren't even available for all sports).
And tbh, I don't think you're a plant, your arguments are too shallow. I think you're just a troll, but since I'm equally bored atm I decided I'll play along.
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On September 06 2010 03:57 FishForThought wrote:
The very definition of professional is "following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain". Passing Courage and getting your pro-gamer license doesn't let you follow the "occupation as a mean of livelihood", it simply means you are allow to participate in their tournaments (which you can't without being picked by kespa's teams).
Pro-gamer license would actually mean something if it allows you to enter an organization which would set you up with sponsors that would give you a "mean of livelihood" but right now this license is pointless as it does not differentiate you from a professional or not. The Tax reduction is no longer needed as well, since the law change, people get taxed 4.4% vs 3.3%. The only thing it does do right now is alienating and stopping people from participating in the individual leagues
That's how professional licenses work in other fields. Getting a license just means you're qualified and able to practice the occupation. It does not mean the examiners set you up with a job and people start paying you. If no one hires you, too bad? I guess people didn't see you as good enough to pay you. Maybe you should do a better job selling yourself.
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On September 06 2010 05:10 MamiyaOtaru wrote:This is why BW esports took off in Korea and kept going when it didn't elsewhere. The structured proleague and salaries. GSL 2, 3, 4 etc isn't going to cut it, and I see no indication Blizzard is interested in setting up a proleague for SC2 TBH I would love to see Koreans sweep the GSL. If not this one then GSL2, as everyone seems to acknowledge is likely Show nested quote +While the first GSL may not produce SC2’s future icons, much more is at stake for many of its qualified players. Everyone saw Nada’s level of SC2 play after just ten days of practice. As former eSTRO player and coach Tester said in an interview, “it would be terrifying if the BW players come [to SC2].” The current SC2 pros know that the clock is ticking, and if the recent breakdowns in Proleague licensing negotiations and rumors of teams disbanding are any indication, a few top flight SC1 progamers could walk in the door to GSL qualifiers as early as next season.
Well.. you represent the few.. most people on this board/thread would rather see GSL die and BW live another decade. Show nested quote +
I would love to see you blabber about alienation when this happens. If your buddies manage to kill off BW and bring the pros to SC2 that will quickly kill off one of the things driving foreigner tournaments and enthusiasm right now: the delusion that they have a chance this time around.
Seeing TLO struggle and maybe take a game from Jaedong has to be more epically more interesting to watch than another bout of Flash vs Jaedong in BW.
Chewbacca defense only works if people get confused. Were you confused by my Medevel analogy?
Those wouldn't be progamers, peasents weren't allowed to compete with royalty. This isn't A Knight's Tale. Sporting contest != tournament. Your peasants would have their bnet, progamers their iccup.
Care to differentiate the difference between sporting contest and tournament?
Also i think you missed the second part of "Feudalism can be well described as a Pyramid of Power. It was possible for everyone to move higher up the ranks of the pyramid and this is what everyone aspired to do"
Royalty may not be the best swordsmen or jouster. So attempting to equate Royalty and Professional gamers doesn't really work.
And if you win courage, you will more than likely get an offer to be drafted to a team and work your way up. As others mentioned before, its actually easier to break into than mainstream sports where you don't even have a Courage-like event to show your skills at, and have to rely on hoping college scouts spot you (assuming you're playing in a college team), or try the random open here and there (which aren't even available for all sports).
If its PL where its team vs team, then yeah, i can understand the need for the team to draft you before you can compete. If its M/O/SL, where its individual, you shouldn't need to be pre-drafted into a team in order to compete. Teams should be scouting players who does well in OSL/MSL for PL.. not the other way around.
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My gripe is actually about winning Courage doesn't actually make you a professional even tho its called a pro-gamer license and it actually derails BW as a esport.
Earning a college degree doesn't make you a professional either, but its usually a requirement for upper level jobs. (and a fishing license doesn't mean you'll catch anything)
I'm not sure what you mean by "derails esport".
P.S. Idra (a foreigner) was invited to join estro before he passed courage.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=64592
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I feel like both scenes have played extremely poorly with each other in terms of being willing to break the stalemate and try to compromise. While I'm mainly an SC2 player, I got back into BW in about 2008 and agree that it's a much more strategically interesting game than SC2 is so far, and I wish the BW leagues would be able to continue. When it comes down to it, people need to be on the side of the game, not of either organization. And there is a distinction between the two (I like SC2's gameplay but hate Battle.net 2.0 and the other background garbage Activision's pulled, for example)
Activision's too greedy when it comes to wanting their hands in the e-sports market, and KeSPA's too greedy when it comes to keeping the hold that they have. I'm disappointed that AVB is taking an all-or-nothing approach, but at the same time I was disappointed when KeSPA blacklisted the GOM league just because it feels dirty to have one group controlling that much of any sports scene. Hopefully something can get worked out (however last minute) that doesn't end up hurting the fans for the sake of money that relies on those same fans sticking around.
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Teams should be scouting players who does well in OSL/MSL for PL.
Having relatively large teams with stable incomes feeding smaller individual tournaments makes for a more stable job for the non S-class players.
Your suggestion is prize-hunting, and leads to a player base living off ramen. (the esports dark ages)
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I know we're going a bit offtopic now, but idra never passed courage. He was given his license by eSTRO and traded to CJ.
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I'm, still rather desperate on this working out some how, some way. if Blizzard does indeed care for the fans then they should let something go, and as for Kespa... well there just stupid, acting stubborn in this way, and basically pushing the problem even worse isn't what they SHOULD be doing. this is ridiculous.
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On August 31 2010 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote:
Man I've been wondering how this was coming along since the last update. I was really hoping that no news was good news, but apparently not.
As others have pointed out, Blizzard hold all the Aces in this situation. If MBC don't want to play the game then things look very bleak.
I'm not religious but maybe it's time to convert!!
Convert my ass, I'd rather switch to Warcraft than SC2
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Hi guys, im a long time lurker here (long enough that i have finished reading all 794 pages of the K-pop Thread/Korean Music Discussion Thread, among other things, if that shows any indication of how long i have been around).. Usually i find no need to post anything and just enjoy the discussions and the VoDs (big thanks to Team Liquid for that).. But i am so greatly disturbed by this issue that i made an account just so i can voice my opinion.
Now first for this FishForThought guy, all posts on Kespa vs Gretech issue? Really? Dont people who just got into the forum started by posting into hype threads or Live Report threads or whatever else that perks their interest? oO.. That would have been ok if that fact wasnt accompanied by the fact that all his posts have been using semi-formal language, trying to sound persuasive by putting forward vaguely relevant analogies and arguments to confuse people.. To be honest i find the link so hard to grasp at some points, it kinda confused me.. Im sure it did for some others too.. So i feel that rather than just being an obscenely stupid SC2 fan, he must (should) have something more to gain by siding with Blizzard (yea i know many dont thinks so, but a plant is what is in my mind).
As with regards to this whole Blizzard vs Kespa issue (yes i cant believe there exist someone whos not blessed with enough intelligence to realise that Blizzard is behind Gretech on this one).. Sorry that i have to number my points to make it easier to organise them in my head.. Its 7.34am and i havnt slept, spending the better part of the night reading up on this issue..
1/ People (especially those that took Blizzard's side) are saying it as if Kespa and the players violated Blizzard's Intellectual Property rights for playing after paying.. That is not true until the court ruled that it is so.. And choosing to completely disregard the fact that all those people (Kespa n their players), after having paid for the game, had to spend years of hardwork to make the scene what it is today. Organisers had to organise events, prepare logistics.. sponsors had to fork out money, take risks.. players had to train everyday, entertain the fans.. and the fans in turn fell in love with them, and continued to cheer on for a decade.. Werent those the things that made up the Scene? Now other than all that, all parties involved already paid Blizzard for the beautiful SC1 that they made.. How is it reasonable that Blizzard, who, after making the game, did nothing but shake legs n collect money be given the rights to all the fruits of OUR (all parties involved that was listed above) EFFORT, when all we did was pay them, and then invest our heart and soul into this thing called SC:BW.
2/ In about any scene in existence (games, sports, even academics), being developed means that the elites will be selected, and specially trained so that they will be ensured the best chance at winning.. Soccer have their ManU, Real, Barca who only select the best.. Intenational Mathematic Olympiads only have the best guys in every country that has been gathered as elites and trained for a few months. I dont see how pro E-sport scene should be different. Progaming = E-sport. Thats not even my own subjective opinion, thats fact. I can see how Kespa benefit from the existence of Progaming teams: with training only the elites, the skillcap will be increased, thus making it more exciting, and in turn, draw in the audience... I can also see how Blizzard will benefit from the dissolution of Progaming: low skillcap means that more random casual players will have this delusion that "hey, maybe i can make it, with some luck".. Which in turn means more sales for them..
3/ Slightly related to the above point. But to avoid the clumped wall of text..
While it is still an uncertainty, it is hardly even arguable that Blizzard cant (and wont) support a large number of Progaming teams as they are now.. The cost is huge, and they simply wont cut an arm and a leg to pay those Pros.. Whats more they even have a reason to not like the existence of those pro players (this is merely in my humble opinion)..
4/ While i do not know what kind of E-sport Blizzard have in mind, i can speak with certainty that it is an E-sport without fans. For i do not see how new people would be willing to pay $ (and no trivial amount at that) every month to watch a game that they dont even understand (im skipping the part where waiting 20 minutes for 1 ball to roll over the other is fracken boring).. And a sport without its spectators, would not be a sport.. I know that the free streams and VoDs are what let me started looking at Brood War, and falling in love with it (i still dont play, i only watch and comment excitedly with friends)..
I hope with my sleepiness this analogy that i want to use here doesnt go out of point.
Lets say Blizz make World of Starcraft, and says "we need all the current WoW server to support our new WoS, so WoW is no more" thus voiding all the efforts that the players have spent raiding, PvP-ing; killing all those gears and ratings that many players have so far accumulated.. its their "property", be it the server or the game itself.. Is it justified that they can do that.. Will people still eat up the same garbage like the one being thrown out now?
I am sorry if that was a bad analogy or didnt make any sense, again its already 8.17am now. But i hope someone would actually read those points i have had above and hopefully agree with them.
1st post on Team Liquid, please be gentle with ur flames, and more contructive comments please  .. Peace.
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On September 06 2010 07:51 Lightningbullet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote:
Man I've been wondering how this was coming along since the last update. I was really hoping that no news was good news, but apparently not.
As others have pointed out, Blizzard hold all the Aces in this situation. If MBC don't want to play the game then things look very bleak.
I'm not religious but maybe it's time to convert!! Convert my ass, I'd rather switch to Warcraft than SC2
Actually man, what I meant with my convert comment, was convert to religion, not SC2. As in, it's time to convert to religion so I can pray and thereby save SC:BW.
Apologies if I wasn't clear about that.
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Lets say Blizz make World of Starcraft, and says "we need all the current WoW server to support our new WoS, so WoW is no more"... Is it justified that they can do that?
I think what irks me is that clearly blizzard should legally be able to do that with their IP.
But its still a totally pants move.
Its like they came up to Kespa and pointed out that their nice shiny castle was built on sand.
And rather than come up with an agreeable solution to the problem they demanded help building a sandcastle. (with the sand from under kespa's castle)
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Good riddance FishForThought, with your logical fallacies and down right bigotry. Everyone in the world would be holding hands prancing around in a flower field around a bunch of rainbow unicorns if you want the world to be "fair". Hate to knock some reality into your fantasy, but only the best can compete. I don't want to watch shitty D- playing in my OSL/MSL.
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On September 06 2010 06:38 moopie wrote:I know we're going a bit offtopic now, but idra never passed courage. He was given his license by eSTRO and traded to CJ.
You selectively highlighted it wrong. It's " Idra (a foreigner) was invited to join estro before he passed courage." Which is just a way of saying they gave him a license without waiting for him to win Courage (that he never did is irrelevant after that. He wouldn't be entering it once he got his license).
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On September 06 2010 06:01 FishForThought wrote:Chewbacca defense only works if people get confused. Were you confused by my Medevel analogy?
No. Your Chewbacca defense failed. Just because it failed doesn't mean you didn't try it though. You were clearly trying to confuse by injecting discussion about unrelated crap.
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Hey guys,
Just a head's up, there is a huge article(in Chinese) in wfbrood regarding the latest development in Blizz/GomTV vs Kespa. And it's not going very well at all!
Perhaps someone could do a translation.
Highlights:
赵启形(dunno in English)from SKT1 said: Everyone in Korea Esport should team up and strike back against Blizz/GomTV.
SKT1，KT，Woojin Stars: We tried our hardest to negotiate with GomTV, but since they denied PL, won't recognise PL, and won't recognise the teams' opinion on the matter, we were force to make this decision.
(This part might be good news)
All 12 teams will not participate in GSL, unless their requests were met.
GomTV: So that GSL can operate smoothly, PL must change it's schedule.
Kespa: PL is the biggest and oldest competition in Korea Esport, you are denying PL a chance.
GomTV: You can say that.
Kespa: Not allowing PL, does that mean you won't recognise the teams' existence?
GomTV: If something doesn't help GSL, we don't have to recognise it.
KT representative 金永珍: If it doesn't benefits GSL, not only SPL, even the teams won't get recognise. After hearing GomTV's stance, we realised that they have no intention of negotiating. Therefore we will all team together and fight with GomTV till the end!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50748 Posts
On September 06 2010 22:47 mmdmmd wrote:
Hey guys,
Just a head's up, there is a huge article(in Chinese) in wfbrood regarding the latest development in Blizz/GOMTV vs Kespa. And it's not going very well at all!
Perhaps someone could do a translation.
A Link to the article would be nice.
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what will blizzard do when all 12 teams and BW progamers ask their fans to boycott GSL/SC2? :o
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EPT
