Shim Hyun, a Fomos reporter, has tweeted the following.
"취재 차 그래텍에 왔는데 MBC게임과의 협상은 결국 결렬될 가능성이 높은 것 같습니다. 오늘밤에 기사를 작성할 예정입니다만, 협회와의 협상도 그렇게 희망적인 것 같지는 않네요. 안타깝습니다."
The gist of it is that, he got in touch with Gretech and apparently the possibilities are "high" that the negotiations between them and MBC Game are breaking down. Furthermore, he adds that "it's not very hopeful" that negotiations between KeSPA and Gretech will be going anywhere.
The gist of the issue seems to be that Gretech isn't very happy that MBC Game ended the MSL and STX Cup without negotiating, although Gretech "made it clear" that a contract will be needed. They're taking the fact that MBC Game finished both leagues without a contract as a sign that MBC Game isn't willing to negotiate, and that, they'll decide on a response based on an internal meeting they'll be having soon.
Also, apparently Gretech offered the same conditions for both OGN and MBC.
OGN has a contract right? so there will be another OSL.
MBC can still start a new MSL / Pro-league, without contract as always. The only thing MBC won't be able to do is showing SC2 games, since that's the only thing, which Blizzard/Gretech can deny them, or am I wrong here?
On August 31 2010 20:01 Nesto wrote: I seem to miss the big problem there.
OGN has a contract right? so there will be another OSL.
MBC can still start a new MSL / Pro-league, without contract as always. The only thing MBC won't be able to do is showing SC2 games, since that's the only thing, which Blizzard/Gretech can deny them, or am I wrong here?
technically no .. they[blizzard] can still deny them because blizzard has already a company[gretech] that can do its "dirty work" in korea. they can go to court if MBC will still broadcast BW
On August 31 2010 20:01 Nesto wrote: I seem to miss the big problem there.
OGN has a contract right? so there will be another OSL.
MBC can still start a new MSL / Pro-league, without contract as always. The only thing MBC won't be able to do is showing SC2 games, since that's the only thing, which Blizzard/Gretech can deny them, or am I wrong here?
No I think they have the rights to SCBW as well which is why OGN negotiated in the first place (they didn't negotiate for SC2 games, they need it for the OSL).
Omg...I don't know what to say this is bad news indeed.
This is really silly, they're angry because they haven't negotiated a contract with MBC and that the leagues have finished. What was MBC suppose to do? Stop everything until negotiations were over? Wasn't the point of the grace period so that they could finish the leagues?
maybe the blizz' intention is to turn the whole proscene to play SC2?
I will miss BW SLs because it's simply more exciting to watch than SC2. On the other hand, if it's the end, I think it's safe to assume the OSL finals will be the biggest thing in BW ever.
sc1 makes blizzard almost no money at this point. The only thing blizzard needed sc1 for was to get a league underway in korea, and that is called gsl. Now that gsl is up and running (and very popular to say the least) blizzard has 0 incentive to keep sc1 going unless they do some crazy sc2 promotion. Plus blizzard wants pros to transfer to sc2 to get the scene really going. I think blizzard negoatiates for a single tournament like osl, but requires that sc2 be advertised during the broadcast. the meeting will go something like this "is it worth it to continue to promote sc1? if so what are the projected advertising revenue from it? What could we gain if msl and osl just stopped? They will make a comparison and decide in a business like fashion.
On August 31 2010 20:01 Nesto wrote: I seem to miss the big problem there.
OGN has a contract right? so there will be another OSL.
MBC can still start a new MSL / Pro-league, without contract as always. The only thing MBC won't be able to do is showing SC2 games, since that's the only thing, which Blizzard/Gretech can deny them, or am I wrong here?
technically no .. they[blizzard] can still deny them because blizzard has already a company[gretech] that can do its "dirty work" in korea. they can go to court if MBC will still broadcast BW
hmm, but they broadcasted without contract for almost 10 years, why is that suddenly a problem?
On August 31 2010 20:01 Nesto wrote: I seem to miss the big problem there.
OGN has a contract right? so there will be another OSL.
MBC can still start a new MSL / Pro-league, without contract as always. The only thing MBC won't be able to do is showing SC2 games, since that's the only thing, which Blizzard/Gretech can deny them, or am I wrong here?
technically no .. they[blizzard] can still deny them because blizzard has already a company[gretech] that can do its "dirty work" in korea. they can go to court if MBC will still broadcast BW
hmm, but they broadcasted without contract for almost 10 years, why is that suddenly a problem?
they gave a fuck about the korean e-sport when 2007 came .. the same time blizz/activision merged
Fuck ... this is not good, although OSL is the better league of the two I still wish they'd figure something out so we can have both OSL and MSL. The worst would be not having PL ...
On August 31 2010 20:07 Nesto wrote: hmm, but they broadcasted without contract for almost 10 years, why is that suddenly a problem?
Blizzard suddenly decided they needed a contract and started negotiating with kespa but it wasnt successful and the negotiations ended without any results. Now they have a contract with gretech (Gom) and told MBC and OGN to negociate with gretech if they wanted to keep broadcasting SCBW. They could broadcast it until the end of august without any contract. Now they need one or blizzard will sue them or something. OGN has a contract I believe but obviously MBC doesnt.
Which leads me to this question : OGN can keep broadcasting OSL, right ? And even PL if there is one.
On August 31 2010 20:07 Nesto wrote: hmm, but they broadcasted without contract for almost 10 years, why is that suddenly a problem?
Blizzard suddenly decided they needed a contract and started negotiating with kespa but it wasnt successful and the negotiations ended without any results. Now they have a contract with gretech (Gom) and told MBC and OGN to negociate with gretech if they wanted to keep broadcasting SCBW. They could broadcast it until the end of august without any contract. Now they need one or blizzard will sue them or something. OGN has a contract I believe but obviously MBC doesnt.
Which leads me to this question : OGN can keep broadcasting OSL, right ? And even PL if there is one.
maybe .. but the season will take too long because only 1 set per day?? idk
On August 31 2010 20:01 Nesto wrote: I seem to miss the big problem there.
OGN has a contract right? so there will be another OSL.
MBC can still start a new MSL / Pro-league, without contract as always. The only thing MBC won't be able to do is showing SC2 games, since that's the only thing, which Blizzard/Gretech can deny them, or am I wrong here?
technically no .. they[blizzard] can still deny them because blizzard has already a company[gretech] that can do its "dirty work" in korea. they can go to court if MBC will still broadcast BW
hmm, but they broadcasted without contract for almost 10 years, why is that suddenly a problem?
they gave a fuck about the korean e-sport when 2007 came .. the same time blizz/activision merged
Blizzard simply understands how important the korean scene is to the popularity of their game and as long as it was just free marketing for BW everyone was happy.
Then once they started developing SC2 they most likely realized the dangers of a split community between BW and SC2 so decided that if BW is gonna continue running we might aswell get a buck or two for it (technically they could demand 10x the prize for BW rights just as a way to steer broadcasters to SC2 to generate more publicity but I'm not sure if they're really that evil).
Still I don't particulary like the fact that law enables developers to have this kind of control over their own games cause in the end Blizzard cares about sales while a broadcasting company like MBC care about providing as good e-sports coverage as possible.
And that is not because Blizzard is evil and MBC loves fans just they make money from different things and as a fan you want the people making money from providing you as good quality e-sports as possible to be the one in charge.
What are the chances of OGN/MBC winning if this goes to court? I mean the fact that they were allowed to run the leagues for almost 7 years without as much as a peep should count for something right?
From a profit perspective, this makes total sense. Blizzard absolutely wants to get Korea to give up on BW now that SC2 is out, and from their perspective, they don't make any money if Flash or Jaedong keep on playing BW. They have MUCH to gain if these kinds of S-class players switch to SC2, if only out of necessity.
Blizzard didn't fucking care about property rights for more than 7 years, they should have no right whatsoever to claim them now just because there's more money to make now.
I hope the korean court totally fucks those bastards over.
No more Activisionblizcrap company games for me, boycot is immediate. Thanks blizzard for ruining best e-sport scene in the world for hopes that you're pitiful game would take over.
On August 31 2010 20:30 Funnytoss wrote: From a profit perspective, this makes total sense. Blizzard absolutely wants to get Korea to give up on BW now that SC2 is out, and from their perspective, they don't make any money if Flash or Jaedong keep on playing BW. They have MUCH to gain if these kinds of S-class players switch to SC2, if only out of necessity.
This isn't about Flash or any players. This is just that from a pure fiscal perspective, Blizzard has nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Threaten to kill off BW if your demands aren't met (more or less).
A) KeSPA/OGN/MBCGame cave and pay up == $$$ + the korean esports scene in your pocket. B) KeSPA/OGN/MBCGame refuse to pay, BW dies == more room (and less competition) for a SC2 esport scene in Korea (though with a very bad taste left in the mouths of ex-BW fans).
Essentially, even if it didn't help SC2 at all, it still doesn't cost Blizz anything atm if the BW scene dies now since they have nothing at stake and don't give 2 shits about the remaining BW fans. From what it seemed (at least according to the public statements made from both sides), it wasn't even really the financial requirements that were the main problem (though MBC did say they were 'higher than expected' and unreasonable, but KeSPA and OGN didn't have an issue). It was about Blizzard wanting a lot of power over KeSPA.
Oh and please don't tell me it is Kespa's fault or whatsoever when it is clearly obvious that Blizzard just want to kill bw to get more broadcating time for Sc2.
Does Blizzard think they can take this doozy without the fans smelling their shit? Legal rights aside, if Blizzard cared about their fanbase they'd show some appreciation for the insane publicity and longevity the proscene gave to their game. 10 years after release, sc1 still draws crowds of hyped fans. Rather than present a better product for their consideration, Blizzard is simply going to pull the plug on bw by making sc1 leagues untenable. I might have learned to enjoy sc2, but now I'll never give my money to a company who treats its fanbase like dirt.
I see both sides points but I think blizzard are just being unreasonable cause kespa has pretty much provided them with free advertisement and helped to hype the starcraft sequel and also keeping the game alive so I don't see why blizzard has to do this ...
On August 31 2010 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: As others have pointed out, Blizzard hold all the Aces in this situation. If MBC don't want to play the game then things look very bleak.
They do for the short term definitely, its unknown if this matter will be beneficial to them in the long run if worse comes to worst. If BW dies, it potentially bodes well for SC2 (as stated earlier), though it depends on how netizens take the news and how much blame blame Blizzard takes for the whole debacle. I expect that the fall of KeSPA and death of BW by a foreign entity won't bode well with national pride and a decade of devotion to esports. Its largly because of the Korean esports scene that BW ever got that big (competitively), and in return the fact that SC2 is as popular as it is today.
personally i don't think blizzard wants bw to die. First of all, if all the korean pros immediately jumped on board to sc2 i think a lot of people would feel discouraged of ever becoming competitive at this game. i also think it would create another tier to the many voices they have to listen to in regards to balance, which would create an even greater chasm separating the opposite ends of the talent spectrum and make it even more difficult to balance. And finally, I think Blizzard kinda recognizes the benefits of being the creators of the game behind the most successful and longest running professional video game organization in the world.
After all, it's not like Blizzard/Gretech broke off communications. It's just MBC being cheap as usual, always claiming to be so poor, so poor etc. even though they never seem to die according to their prognostications. I think MBC just wants a cheaper price.
This isn't about Flash or any players. This is just that from a pure fiscal perspective, Blizzard has nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Well Blizzard has still an image to lose. But seems more and more that they don't care anymore and are now just another video game company. I also think Blizzard can pack their bags in korea when all Bw leagues die...would hurt them more than it would help( But yea they have Gretech now to do the dirty work for them). I would laugh if Gretech loses when it goes to court, but well court proceeding could take several months to years. FU!
I hope MBC takes this to court, cuz this is bs. Developers shouldn't have this much power over a game, especially 10 years after its prime time. Don't copyright laws stop applying after a set number of years?
On August 31 2010 22:22 deafhobbit wrote: Am i the only one hoping the Korean Dept of Culture, with all its talk a few months back about supporting e-sports, will come in and fix this?
If this happens it will be a HUGE turning point in E-sports history, freeing E-sports from the game producer is a mandatory step for it to continue it's growth
On August 31 2010 22:22 StRyKeR wrote: I hope MBC takes this to court, cuz this is bs. Developers shouldn't have this much power over a game, especially 10 years after its prime time. Don't copyright laws stop applying after a set number of years?
Can we safely say, that SC is dead now? Fuck that, Activision Loozzard wants to kill the greatest children of Blizzard. It's really time to siege our tanks off and steamroll natural of those greedy mofo's. No more money for Activision. Ever! AAAND, can you Oz and KT fans struggle somewhere else? This is much more than just JD and Flash , as we wont see more BW awsomeness anymore
well that's why i call him the one of the most decorated starcraft players ever.
don't you guys realize that, as a flash fan, i want jaedong to do well? Same with bisu and stork, and fantasy and leta to a certain extent. It's no fun being the fan of a favorite with no competition. So I'm not making statements like this because it's my desired objective, I say it because I'm afraid that's what the future holds: Flash and JD meeting at rigged (I'm referring to the Kespa ranking/seeding) MSL finals, again and again, each time JD losing and having even more of his confidence crushed. Even when he won he couldn't have the full glory becaues everyone kept talking about the heater incident. I've been watching Jaedong lose to Flash now for the past 9 months (starting from Christmas OSLs --> now) and it's sad to see the Tyrant get shoved around like this. And I'm afraid it'll only get worse... which is not only just bad for Jaedong, but it's bad for Starcraft too.
edit: spoilered cuz i fear i'll derail this therad
On August 31 2010 21:41 d_so wrote: personally i don't think blizzard wants bw to die. First of all, if all the korean pros immediately jumped on board to sc2 i think a lot of people would feel discouraged of ever becoming competitive at this game. i also think it would create another tier to the many voices they have to listen to in regards to balance, which would create an even greater chasm separating the opposite ends of the talent spectrum and make it even more difficult to balance. And finally, I think Blizzard kinda recognizes the benefits of being the creators of the game behind the most successful and longest running professional video game organization in the world.
After all, it's not like Blizzard/Gretech broke off communications. It's just MBC being cheap as usual, always claiming to be so poor, so poor etc. even though they never seem to die according to their prognostications. I think MBC just wants a cheaper price.
I love playing Devil's Advocate.
Still, I would be sad if SC1 scene is severally hurt due to the power struggle between two organizations.
On August 31 2010 22:32 alypse wrote: First Infinity Ward, then Korean pro scene, and us BW fans.
Activision Blizzard has turned into the biggest douchebag in the video game industry.
Blizzard employees are POWs,Activison is the enemy.
I still wouldn't worry too much.also I think MBC is being unfair because apparently OGN was made the same offer. I think they will cave now and bring up this issue a couple of seasons later.
Still I think this is completely fucked up bullshit.
EDIT:also this stupid complaining about sc2.Don't hate the game,hate the boss of its makers.
On August 31 2010 22:35 LastActionHero wrote: Im going to cheese in every fucking game of SC2 if I can't watch broodwar anymore and I hope others will follow. Let's rain on their parade!
On August 31 2010 22:35 LastActionHero wrote: Im going to cheese in every fucking game of SC2 if I can't watch broodwar anymore and I hope others will follow. Let's rain on their parade!
its already happening .. lol
lol...I think just not playing is a better idea :p
On August 31 2010 22:29 hitthat wrote: Can we safely say, that SC is dead now?
No, we can't. Even if no deal is made, its entirely possible KeSPA plans to go to court (again), which for one drags on for a long while (during which they will carry on), and the results could go either way in the korean courts.
I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
no matter how reasonable the shit you give to your fanbase is,
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
ffs you do know that OGN only got the contract because they agreed to put the new OSL under SC2's helm?? Blizz is forcing their new shit into a scene that has been around for 10 years, a scene that made bw to what it is today while blizz didn't care at all about things like property rights. Now, after a full decade, they say "hey, those guys are using our game to make money!" like it would be breaking news. This is not about MBC or kespa being stubborn. This is about Activision Blizzard acting like total dickheads.
On August 31 2010 20:16 Holgerius wrote: Goddamnit Blizzard, I'm gonna boycott your stuff from now on. >:[
This is they fucking prevent us PL / MSL.
Fuck this contract greed shit... why would you meddle with something which allready profited you? Blizzard couldve hosted tournaments for sponsorships and COOPERATE, accept the ROYALTIES which KeSPA OFFERED.
Fucking bullshit if sc bw is killed just after i get soo into it.
On August 31 2010 22:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: Reasonable shit>Fucked up shit
anyways even if things don't work out, what are the chances that we won't get a:
1) GOMTV MSL 2) GOMTV Pro-league
If a deal isn't struck between KeSPA and Gretech/Blizz? 100% that neither of those will happen. All the progaming teams operate under KeSPA, and there is 0% of Gretech trying to re-make a BW scene with completely new sponsors.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
OGN has a lot of reasons to negotiate and make it work properly (Korean Air Sponsor, Shanghai Finals). No matter how "unreasonable" demands they were, there's much stronger incentive for OGN to make it work properly.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
Many people here would say that MBC/OGN have made Blizzard a huge favor by keeping the game in the spotlight for all this years...
On August 31 2010 22:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: Reasonable shit>Fucked up shit
anyways even if things don't work out, what are the chances that we won't get a:
1) GOMTV MSL 2) GOMTV Pro-league
If a deal isn't struck between KeSPA and Gretech/Blizz? 100% that neither of those will happen. All the progaming teams operate under KeSPA, and there is 0% of Gretech trying to re-make a BW scene with completely new sponsors.
KeSPA like 'they' say are a group created by the progamers for the progamers,they wouldn't play if there isn't any money around,so they would have to play for gretech if they want to continue playing.
I know its harsh but I hope this isn't the case and it doesn't effect everyone too much.
On August 31 2010 22:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: Reasonable shit>Fucked up shit
anyways even if things don't work out, what are the chances that we won't get a:
1) GOMTV MSL 2) GOMTV Pro-league
If a deal isn't struck between KeSPA and Gretech/Blizz? 100% that neither of those will happen. All the progaming teams operate under KeSPA, and there is 0% of Gretech trying to re-make a BW scene with completely new sponsors.
KeSPA like 'they' say are a group created by the progamers for the progamers,they wouldn't play if there isn't any money around,so they would have to play for gretech if they want to continue playing.
I know its harsh but I hope this isn't the case and it doesn't effect everyone too much.
KeSPA actually represent the team sponsors, not the players. And they can go to court with Blizzard, like they have before, and continue to operate in the meanwhile. A lawsuit can drag out for over a year, and should the verdict be negative, there could be other avenues to pursue.
On August 31 2010 20:06 darmousseh wrote: sc1 makes blizzard almost no money at this point. The only thing blizzard needed sc1 for was to get a league underway in korea, and that is called gsl. Now that gsl is up and running (and very popular to say the least) blizzard has 0 incentive to keep sc1 going unless they do some crazy sc2 promotion. Plus blizzard wants pros to transfer to sc2 to get the scene really going. I think blizzard negoatiates for a single tournament like osl, but requires that sc2 be advertised during the broadcast. the meeting will go something like this "is it worth it to continue to promote sc1? if so what are the projected advertising revenue from it? What could we gain if msl and osl just stopped? They will make a comparison and decide in a business like fashion.
But nobody want to play sc2 expect some who can see the emperor's new clothes.
And for sc1, just like the Korean popular song says, "I want nobody nobody nobody nobody but you!"
So, now that sc1 would not die, it must prosper greatly in the future!
I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.) I really hope the OSL continues on at least, as BW is more fun to watch. But if I can only watch pro SC2....then...I'm sad now.
On August 31 2010 20:16 Holgerius wrote: Goddamnit Blizzard, I'm gonna boycott your stuff from now on. >:[
This. And I won't log into SC2 ever again if things stay that way (I played with some friends cause they did not wan't to play broodwar... I'm sad.).
Oh you "boycotters".
MW2 Boycott:
90% people are in MW2. LOL
its funny how people boycott .. but then again its the only way to protest .. some are actually doing it so i dont see the point of your post if 10% are still gonna boycott it ..
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.) I really hope the OSL continues on at least, as BW is more fun to watch. But if I can only watch pro SC2....then...I'm sad now.
do you even realize what would have happen to your SC2, if SC1 wasn't this big?? they should be thanking Korean corporations for giving them free advertisement ..
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
On August 31 2010 20:16 Holgerius wrote: Goddamnit Blizzard, I'm gonna boycott your stuff from now on. >:[
This. And I won't log into SC2 ever again if things stay that way (I played with some friends cause they did not wan't to play broodwar... I'm sad.).
Oh you "boycotters".
MW2 Boycott:
90% people are in MW2. LOL
Are you trying to compare MW2 community that wants dedicated server to SC foreign community (the guys that get up at 5 am to watch games) that just got fucked in the ass?
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
You, sir, are a total idiot.
I guess I should elaborate more. But why repeat what someone above me already said? You sir, shouldn't be so hasty to call ppl stupid.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
do you even realize what would have happen to your SC2, if SC1 wasn't this big?? they should be thanking Korean corporations for giving them free advertisement ..
It's not MY SC2 :p, but you do make a good point there. I understand that SC2 is only what it is because of BW, I'm just saying Blizz wants to make more money, and they want all the companies to support their new game(obviously.) Which, albeit an extremely rude thing to do, is just part of business. New game, new fans, new sales, more money. At least, that's how I see it.
On August 31 2010 20:30 Funnytoss wrote: From a profit perspective, this makes total sense. Blizzard absolutely wants to get Korea to give up on BW now that SC2 is out, and from their perspective, they don't make any money if Flash or Jaedong keep on playing BW. They have MUCH to gain if these kinds of S-class players switch to SC2, if only out of necessity.
This isn't about Flash or any players. This is just that from a pure fiscal perspective, Blizzard has nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Threaten to kill off BW if your demands aren't met (more or less).
A) KeSPA/OGN/MBCGame cave and pay up == $$$ + the korean esports scene in your pocket. B) KeSPA/OGN/MBCGame refuse to pay, BW dies == more room (and less competition) for a SC2 esport scene in Korea (though with a very bad taste left in the mouths of ex-BW fans).
Essentially, even if it didn't help SC2 at all, it still doesn't cost Blizz anything atm if the BW scene dies now since they have nothing at stake and don't give 2 shits about the remaining BW fans. From what it seemed (at least according to the public statements made from both sides), it wasn't even really the financial requirements that were the main problem (though MBC did say they were 'higher than expected' and unreasonable, but KeSPA and OGN didn't have an issue). It was about Blizzard wanting a lot of power over KeSPA.
I disagree, if B happens, thats alot of bad poblicity, Im not a huge BW fan and I will stop buying their shit. (doenst help that sc2 was a big fail for me)
On August 31 2010 20:16 Holgerius wrote: Goddamnit Blizzard, I'm gonna boycott your stuff from now on. >:[
This. And I won't log into SC2 ever again if things stay that way (I played with some friends cause they did not wan't to play broodwar... I'm sad.).
Oh you "boycotters".
MW2 Boycott:
90% people are in MW2. LOL
its funny how people boycott .. but then again its the only way to protest .. some are actually doing it so i dont see the point of your post if 10% are still gonna boycott it ..
90% people are currently in MW2. I can see everyone else got it too.
On August 31 2010 22:22 StRyKeR wrote: I hope MBC takes this to court, cuz this is bs. Developers shouldn't have this much power over a game, especially 10 years after its prime time. Don't copyright laws stop applying after a set number of years?
Actually they don't as long as you replenish the copyright after a certain amount of time (i.e. theoretically holding the copyrights for lifetime). I can't say much because on this matter korean law will be applied but that KeSPA could broadcast for 7 years is a strong point they can use in court.
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.) I really hope the OSL continues on at least, as BW is more fun to watch. But if I can only watch pro SC2....then...I'm sad now.
Exactly,MBC are the only ones who have a problem and as OGN were given an offer and they accepted.KeSPA can't really go to court since OGN is happy which means that the BW will ive on but will only be half as fun.
I agree this post is weak in terms of the point I want to it put in,as I have trouble putting things on paper.
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
You, sir, are a total idiot.
I guess I should elaborate more. But why repeat what someone above me already said? You sir, shouldn't be so hasty to call ppl stupid.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
I recommend you to read the answers that were given to this post. OGN only got into negotiations with Gretech because they have a huge sponsor (korean air) backing them, and they had to put the new OSL format under the helm of sc2. Do you call this a fair basis for negotiations? How can you defend Blizzard in this case? They gave a fuck about their property rights since nearly a decade, were rather thankful that somebody promoted their game and company name so well, and now they just go in there and demand everything that korean esport build up for themselves? They had no influence whatsoever that the game got so big there. And now they just want to harvest the fruits of this hard work, acting like they just found out that their property is being used.
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
You, sir, are a total idiot.
I guess I should elaborate more. But why repeat what someone above me already said? You sir, shouldn't be so hasty to call ppl stupid.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
MAybe they (kepsa) are to blame too but the fact is they invested ressources+idea to make SC:BW esport + abit of the game what it is today should mean something.
I myself after playing sc:bw storyline and loving it only got into the multiplayer game 5~ years after because of those gosu koreans.
And now SC2 and its shity storyline has its (good/decent) multiplayer to some extent becase of kepsa and the koreans.
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.) I really hope the OSL continues on at least, as BW is more fun to watch. But if I can only watch pro SC2....then...I'm sad now.
Exactly,MBC are the only ones who have a problem and as OGN were given an offer and they accepted.KeSPA can't really go to court since OGN is happy which means that the BW will ive on but will only be half as fun.
I agree this post is weak in terms of the point I want to it put in,as I have trouble putting things on paper.
It all depends on the contracts. As it seems OGN made a contract with gretech which means that they acted seperatly from other instances (kespa/mbc).
How recent was that drafting article? The pro-league teams don't seem to concerned if their still drafting broodwar players for future pro league seasons and development of thier team. I don't think they think broodwar is gonna come to and end.
Also this some how makes me feel bad for playing so much sc2 and not Broodwar recently.
On August 31 2010 23:40 Greg_J wrote: How recent was that drafting article? The pro-league teams don't seem to concerned if their still drafting broodwar players for future pro league seasons and development of thier team. I don't think they think broodwar is gonna come to and end.
Also this some how makes me feel bad for playing so much sc2 and not Broodwar recently.
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
You, sir, are a total idiot.
I guess I should elaborate more. But why repeat what someone above me already said? You sir, shouldn't be so hasty to call ppl stupid.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
I recommend you to read the answers that were given to this post. OGN only got into negotiations with Gretech because they have a huge sponsor (korean air) backing them, and they had to put the new OSL format under the helm of sc2. Do you call this a fair basis for negotiations? How can you defend Blizzard in this case? They gave a fuck about their property rights since nearly a decade, were rather thankful that somebody promoted their game and company name so well, and now they just go in there and demand everything that korean esport build up for themselves? They had no influence whatsoever that the game got so big there. And now they just want to harvest the fruits of this hard work, acting like they just found out that their property is being used.
I did read the responses, and while I do agree it was a very dick move, as I edited in my above post It's just business. They want more money, so they want the korean companies to transition into their new game, gain new promotion, new fans, more viewers, and sell more stuff SC2 related. Gaming industry's still a business, and as much as it may shock you all, Activision-Blizzard only care about the money side of things, it's clear they don't care about what the fans want. But it's their game, it's their choice, and if MBC doesn't want to negotiate with them, then Blizz can just tell them to go screw themselves, which is probably what they're doing. So yeah, its really messed up and rude, but it's their stuff, and they can do whatever they want with it.
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
You, sir, are a total idiot.
I guess I should elaborate more. But why repeat what someone above me already said? You sir, shouldn't be so hasty to call ppl stupid.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
MAybe they (kepsa) are to blame too but the fact is they invested ressources+idea to make SC:BW esport + abit of the game what it is today should mean something.
Here is something to read about KeSPA from guy in South Korea (quoted from Kespa cancels Nada vs TLO thread):
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
You, sir, are a total idiot.
I guess I should elaborate more. But why repeat what someone above me already said? You sir, shouldn't be so hasty to call ppl stupid.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
I recommend you to read the answers that were given to this post. OGN only got into negotiations with Gretech because they have a huge sponsor (korean air) backing them, and they had to put the new OSL format under the helm of sc2. Do you call this a fair basis for negotiations? How can you defend Blizzard in this case? They gave a fuck about their property rights since nearly a decade, were rather thankful that somebody promoted their game and company name so well, and now they just go in there and demand everything that korean esport build up for themselves? They had no influence whatsoever that the game got so big there. And now they just want to harvest the fruits of this hard work, acting like they just found out that their property is being used.
I did read the responses, and while I do agree it was a very dick move, as I edited in my above post It's just business. They want more money, so they want the korean companies to transition into their new game, gain new promotion, new fans, more viewers, and sell more stuff SC2 related. Gaming industry's still a business, and as much as it may shock you all, Activision-Blizzard only care about the money side of things, it's clear they don't care about what the fans want. But it's their game, it's their choice, and if MBC doesn't want to negotiate with them, then Blizz can just tell them to go screw themselves, which is probably what they're doing. So yeah, its really messed up and rude, but it's their stuff, and they can do whatever they want with it.
if its business .. then they should be paying kespa for the advertisement running for 10 years
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
You, sir, are a total idiot.
I guess I should elaborate more. But why repeat what someone above me already said? You sir, shouldn't be so hasty to call ppl stupid.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
I recommend you to read the answers that were given to this post. OGN only got into negotiations with Gretech because they have a huge sponsor (korean air) backing them, and they had to put the new OSL format under the helm of sc2. Do you call this a fair basis for negotiations? How can you defend Blizzard in this case? They gave a fuck about their property rights since nearly a decade, were rather thankful that somebody promoted their game and company name so well, and now they just go in there and demand everything that korean esport build up for themselves? They had no influence whatsoever that the game got so big there. And now they just want to harvest the fruits of this hard work, acting like they just found out that their property is being used.
I did read the responses, and while I do agree it was a very dick move, as I edited in my above post It's just business. They want more money, so they want the korean companies to transition into their new game, gain new promotion, new fans, more viewers, and sell more stuff SC2 related. Gaming industry's still a business, and as much as it may shock you all, Activision-Blizzard only care about the money side of things, it's clear they don't care about what the fans want. But it's their game, it's their choice, and if MBC doesn't want to negotiate with them, then Blizz can just tell them to go screw themselves, which is probably what they're doing. So yeah, its really messed up and rude, but it's their stuff, and they can do whatever they want with it.
The thing is that blizzard never thought that way. Many people thought of them as one of the last gaming companies who still care about fans and what they do to make esports grow. Blizzard changed so much into a greedy bastard company since they merged with Activision.
I can't believe that you cannot understand how people are blaming Blizzard right now. They act like cheap unthankful fucks. Rather you blame MBC for not giving up everything they did? Just imagine you to be in this situation. Imagine you to be one of the guys that dedicated the last 10 years of their lifes to Starcraft and its fans. If you were a true BW fan, you wouldn't talk like that.
It is also quite possible that the korean court has a very different view on this than Activision Blizzard. Chances that this comes to court are quite good.
lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting.
In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players.
Wow this completely fucks over the players who have been practicing for years solely for the promotion of a new game. How can eSports ever be properly recognized if scenes can simply be forced into these situations on a developers whim after so many years running? The Proleague and OSL must be one of the longest running and most successful examples of eSports ever, yet for some reason they are so willing to throw that away.
Surely some goodwill towards the organization that achieved this would be better than alienating them and the Korean fanbase. I don't see why Blizzard/Gretech expects to make money from this and how a scene can be viable for the long term with profit as its goal, the 'profit' to them should be simply the promotion of the game.
Doesn't anyone else think that KESPA should just give in (they have been getting a free ride on Blizzard's IP all this time after all)
especially when the alternative is the immediate destruction of an entire proscene, not to mention the loss of jobs for hundreds of koreans... I personally think KESPA is being really tightfisted about this
On September 01 2010 00:15 infinity2k9 wrote: Wow this completely fucks over the players who have been practicing for years solely for the promotion of a new game. How can eSports ever be properly recognized if scenes can simply be forced into these situations on a developers whim after so many years running? The Proleague and OSL must be one of the longest running and most successful examples of eSports ever, yet for some reason they are so willing to throw that away.
Surely some goodwill towards the organization that achieved this would be better than alienating them and the Korean fanbase. I don't see why Blizzard/Gretech expects to make money from this and how a scene can be viable for the long term with profit as its goal, the 'profit' to them should be simply the promotion of the game.
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
You, sir, are a total idiot.
I guess I should elaborate more. But why repeat what someone above me already said? You sir, shouldn't be so hasty to call ppl stupid.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
MAybe they (kepsa) are to blame too but the fact is they invested ressources+idea to make SC:BW esport + abit of the game what it is today should mean something.
Here is something to read about KeSPA from guy in South Korea (quoted from Kespa cancels Nada vs TLO thread):
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
Wow, thanks for that quote. I hadn't read that before. And thanks to the guy that originally wrote it. This is what I've viewed for myself in the past couple years, but it's always good to have more sources for the same story.
On September 01 2010 00:17 GenericTerranPlayer wrote: Doesn't anyone else think that KESPA should just give in (they have been getting a free ride on Blizzard's IP all this time after all)
especially when the alternative is the immediate destruction of an entire proscene, not to mention the loss of jobs for hundreds of koreans... I personally think KESPA is being really tightfisted about this
I agree Kespa seems to be going all in instead of losing a % of the current revenue.
If flash can make 400k a year kespa is not fooling anyone with the "we are not profiting off BW and cant afford to pay" BS.
Kespa Lost 70% of its weight when the GSL came around.
an 80k+ 1st prize is more than a osl + msl and easier to achieve right now.
With B-teamers and old timers doing as well as they are doing you can bet your bottom dollar that alot of Current Pro are dying for a shot at what would be for them Easy money.
Sc2 WILL live on in korea Kespa has everything to lose and almost nothing to gain.
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
thanks for this... didn't know a lot of this stuff, i'm starting to really be pissed off
On August 31 2010 23:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote: I hate Kespa and MBC for not negotiating. Don't blame Blizzard for wanting more money out of their game(I assume that's what the contract is about.)
You, sir, are a total idiot.
I guess I should elaborate more. But why repeat what someone above me already said? You sir, shouldn't be so hasty to call ppl stupid.
On August 31 2010 22:47 hns wrote: I don't get why everybody sees Blizzard/Gretech as the bad guys here.
Apparently OGN was able to negotiate/talk to Gretech in a suitable way and got it's contract. Gretech even offered the same conditions to MBC as they have with OGN. The situation was clear since Blizzard put Gretech in place and it's MBCs very own fault if they aren't able to adapt to a new situation. Blizzard owns the copyrights and now that Kespa et al failed to recognize these for SC2, they were left with Gretech. If they are too stubborn to see that Blizzard has more pull in the long run, it's really their own fault. OGN managed to bite the bullet, MBC/Kespa didn't and apparently don't.
I can't see the main fault on Blizzard's side here. You can't really blame them to get their copyright stuff right for SC2 and they really don't have to swallow everything. They gave MBC/Kespa a lot of possibilities to handle the new situation and apparently these two are still too stubborn. So blame them, not Blizzard alone. I do recognize that Blizzard probably could have been a little more tolerant (well they left the running leagues alone) but I'm still on their side here.
MAybe they (kepsa) are to blame too but the fact is they invested ressources+idea to make SC:BW esport + abit of the game what it is today should mean something.
Here is something to read about KeSPA from guy in South Korea (quoted from Kespa cancels Nada vs TLO thread):
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
so then Blizzard, the good guys come in and say, don't worry Starcraft fans, we will have KesPa pay us so they can go on doing the exact same thing they always did, Or we will kill the whole pro-scene so you guys no longer need to suffer the tyranic deeds of KesPa.
wow that is great, thanks blizzard for freeing us from Kespa by killing the pro-scene...wait a minute.
(also the points you quoted show a very biased side of the story)
On September 01 2010 00:17 GenericTerranPlayer wrote: Doesn't anyone else think that KESPA should just give in (they have been getting a free ride on Blizzard's IP all this time after all)
especially when the alternative is the immediate destruction of an entire proscene, not to mention the loss of jobs for hundreds of koreans... I personally think KESPA is being really tightfisted about this
How about blizzard just leave kespa alone like they did for the last 10 years.
It's like SC2 is being released and blizzard is all like, "ohh yeaa esports, ESPORTS MAAAN, we love it! But you're gonna have to sign a contract with us if you want to broadcast BW from now on. If not? Then screw esports."
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
We've had analogy discussions before on this point, and yours is no better because it is too basic. No analogy can cover all the details of these negotiations nor the history. Remember this: Blizzard has invited KeSPA sanctioned players to Blizzcons before to promote their games. This implies that they support BW/KeSPA before this whole ordeal. Also, payment=free advertisement. That's pretty good considering I heard Blizzard spent 20million+ on advertisement for SC2.
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting.
In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players.
How can you say blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big? They made the game. I'm not saying this is the best way to go about things. Wait 10 years and then negotiate. But this is how it's happening, and I think both sides know it's not optimal, but once again, it's the situation they're stuck in. They might as well negotiate and get it over with. You guys act like blizzard knew in 10 yrs BW would be this big. They're not as crafty as you give them credit for.
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
We've had analogy discussions before on this point, and yours is no better because it is too basic. No analogy can cover all the details of these negotiations nor the history. Remember this: Blizzard has invited KeSPA sanctioned players to Blizzcons before to promote their games. This implies that they support BW/KeSPA before this whole ordeal. Also, payment=free advertisement. That's pretty good considering I heard Blizzard spent 20million+ on advertisement for SC2.
Kespa could have always approached Blizzard to negotiate a contract long before the other way 'round. Kespa didn't have to wait for Blizz to come knocking.
If both sides knew it was coming, like people are saying, then why couldn't Kespa have made the first move?
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
thanks for this... didn't know a lot of this stuff, i'm starting to really be pissed off
Sorry, but everyone who takes this as an objective list of facts is a huge tool. It just takes one single read to see how biased this shit is.
Just look at the conditions OGN had to agree with.
On September 01 2010 00:23 metaldragon wrote: I agree Kespa seems to be going all in instead of losing a % of the current revenue.
If flash can make 400k a year kespa is not fooling anyone with the "we are not profiting off BW and cant afford to pay" BS.
Kespa Lost 70% of its weight when the GSL came around.
an 80k+ 1st prize is more than a osl + msl and easier to achieve right now.
With B-teamers and old timers doing as well as they are doing you can bet your bottom dollar that alot of Current Pro are dying for a shot at what would be for them Easy money.
Sc2 WILL live on in korea Kespa has everything to lose and almost nothing to gain.
If you think KeSPA is making a profit, where does it come from? Flash can earn that much because of his tournament winnings and the fact his team pays him one of the highest salaries. Only the prize money is from KeSPA. The only way KeSPA can recieve more money is to try and make sponsors pay more money, and as this is already a niche it might be not a very good idea to try and demand more. I think it's great that we have a self-sufficient scene with big sponsors like Korean Air supporting it, and it would be a shame to lose that.
What happens when Blizzard decides that it's not in their interest to provide the prize money and other funds for the GSL? What sponsor is going to want to meet the demands from Gretech then? I just don't believe it's in the interest of eSports at all... we all want it to grow, yet this is in the opposite direction.
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
thanks for this... didn't know a lot of this stuff, i'm starting to really be pissed off
Sorry, but everyone who takes this as an objective list of facts is a huge tool. It just takes one single read to see how biased this shit is.
Just look at the conditions OGN had to agree with.
Wow didn't know there are people who take this list seriously. You can immediately tell how baised it is haha. But hey a korean wrote it!!1 rofl
On September 01 2010 00:34 Chill wrote: I feel like drama like this has happened 90 times before (OMG NO MSL, etc.) and then it always goes forward anyways.
Chill, your words kinda chill me anytime, in any situation.
Let's just hope for the sake of esports that you're right again.
On August 31 2010 23:43 DarkspearTribe wrote: Here is something to read about KeSPA from guy in South Korea (quoted from Kespa cancels Nada vs TLO thread):
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
This list is definitely not entirely accurate. For example, it cannot be claimed that Kespa pulled all progamers under it out of the GomTV Classic since plenty of players did participate. Nor did GomTV go out of business at any point in time. A lot of the statements are also unverified. For example, "Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason." is what Blizzard claims in a PR statement, although Kespa claims the opposite, that Kespa tried to acquire a license and Blizzard would not negotiate. And I have no idea how anyone would know that "In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA." is true.
Just because a list is nicely numbered doesn't mean it's accurate.
Anyways, now it's really time we find out how much solidarity Gretech will show with its related companies OGN and CJ. OSL cannot go on without Proleague. Without Proleague the team sponsors pretty much lose all incentive to continue paying and housing their players, and if/when those players are dropped, participation in OSL will probably be greatly impacted as well. And if OSL runs without MSL, I do think a significant chunk of fans will be angered and affect turnout for OSL.
On August 31 2010 20:06 darmousseh wrote: sc1 makes blizzard almost no money at this point. The only thing blizzard needed sc1 for was to get a league underway in korea, and that is called gsl. Now that gsl is up and running (and very popular to say the least) blizzard has 0 incentive to keep sc1 going unless they do some crazy sc2 promotion. Plus blizzard wants pros to transfer to sc2 to get the scene really going. I think blizzard negoatiates for a single tournament like osl, but requires that sc2 be advertised during the broadcast. the meeting will go something like this "is it worth it to continue to promote sc1? if so what are the projected advertising revenue from it? What could we gain if msl and osl just stopped? They will make a comparison and decide in a business like fashion.
I haven't haven't read the whole thread, but i had to react instantly to this. Seriously now i just got really pissed and "Fuck" Blizzard! They didn't care about bw at all and now they even try to kill it, because they want profit from something they haven't do a shit for. They unfortunately make shitty boring new game with shiny graphics and try to kill the best game ever. SC BW should never be stopped playing at least in Korea, because come on...Has someone ever said, hey let's stop playing soccer or chess, they are so old and meh...
I was looking forward to SC2 and it dissapointed me (might change with time and expansions). At least leave us with bw progaming alive to get some entertainment from. The whole bw scene was killed by money (lack of it). Foreign scene has no tournaments going at all so competitive playing for foreigners is gone.
I hope Blizzard won't mess up Diablo 3 at least.
Sorry i just had to release my wrath, i really wish more companies just invested in bw progaming and it would get big as all bw players always dreamed. Sc 2 is a huge mess right now and i hope they manage to do something with it, but i kinda doubt it. The only success is that they are throwing huge money tournaments in simple, boring game - congratulations.
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
thanks for this... didn't know a lot of this stuff, i'm starting to really be pissed off
Sorry, but everyone who takes this as an objective list of facts is a huge tool. It just takes one single read to see how biased this shit is.
Just look at the conditions OGN had to agree with.
Of course it is one sided. But the whole thing about the Nada Showmatch, and the thing with Mike Morhaime meeting Progamers is just fucked up, and I don't see much of a justification for this, but I'm sure you will have some objective reasons for Kespas actions.
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting.
In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players.
I just read over the thread, granted I didn't read every post, but I can't find one valid argument for OGN not being able to come to an agreement with Gretech. Some people say that MBC just can "afford" it because they got the bigger sponsors, but I can't imaginge Gretech forcing OGN to pay the same amount of money when they have half of the founds available (just an example).
Further to all people shitting on Blizzard now: I don't agree with what they did either, but you got to cut them some slack. Blizzard made BW and they didn't just come in and try to call the shots. They stepped in after Kespa tried to profit from their game and they did try to organise events (with GOM). Hate on Activision/Blizzard all you want, but Kespa is at least as bad and greedy as them, if not even worse: They didn't pushed Blizzard out and basically crushed GOM only to secure their standing in the BW scene that they didn't even create.
This isn't the same team at blizzard that made Sc1...(seriously who the fuck was browder before sc2, that guy who made the crappy C&C games?). Blizzard should be grateful for Sc1 and realize that without it, Sc2 wouldn't have even a quarter of the hype and fanbase that it does. On top of that having no Sc1 leagues isn't gonna make many people want to watch Sc2 more, so i have no idea wtf they're trying to accomplish.
On August 31 2010 20:06 darmousseh wrote: sc1 makes blizzard almost no money at this point. The only thing blizzard needed sc1 for was to get a league underway in korea, and that is called gsl. Now that gsl is up and running (and very popular to say the least) blizzard has 0 incentive to keep sc1 going unless they do some crazy sc2 promotion. Plus blizzard wants pros to transfer to sc2 to get the scene really going. I think blizzard negoatiates for a single tournament like osl, but requires that sc2 be advertised during the broadcast. the meeting will go something like this "is it worth it to continue to promote sc1? if so what are the projected advertising revenue from it? What could we gain if msl and osl just stopped? They will make a comparison and decide in a business like fashion.
You're pretty clueless if you think that. Do you not realize what a ridiculous following Sc1 has given blizzard? That's given them more than broadcasting profits ever will.
doesnt really matter if all of us dedicated bw-players boycott sc2 since blizzard is selling crazy amounts of the game all ready. been trying to get a copy for about a week but the game is sold out everywhere. my closest electronic store sold >1500 copies in less then two weeks. :/ blizzard should focus more on balance and less on this bs. again, pre-activision and pre-WoW... i miss the good old times
For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea
1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time.
Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard.
thanks for this... didn't know a lot of this stuff, i'm starting to really be pissed off
Sorry, but everyone who takes this as an objective list of facts is a huge tool. It just takes one single read to see how biased this shit is.
Just look at the conditions OGN had to agree with.
Of course it is one sided. But the whole thing about the Nada Showmatch, and the thing with Mike Morhaime meeting Progamers is just fucked up, and I don't see much of a justification for this, but I'm sure you will have some objective reasons for Kespas actions.
- cheers, the Tool
Every child can see that Mike Morhaime just wanted to meet up with Progamers to convince them to hop over to SC2 in the future. There was no interest in BW whatsoever. For 10 years Blizzard didn't care a single bit about progaming, and now that SC2 is on the bridge they should get hailed for the attention they're giving to possible SC2 stars? come on. I would've done exactly the same if I was Kespa.
On September 01 2010 00:47 s.a.y wrote: I don't mind.
KeSPa got greed. Don't bite the hand that feeds you
Yea of course Kespa got greedy suddenly after 7 years, sure dude... Well if Broodwar dies i just quit watching e-sport altogether no big deal but would be sad, also no more TL
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting.
In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players.
I just read over the thread, granted I didn't read every post, but I can't find one valid argument for OGN not being able to come to an agreement with Gretech. Some people say that MBC just can "afford" it because they got the bigger sponsors, but I can't imaginge Gretech forcing OGN to pay the same amount of money when they have half of the founds available (just an example).
Further to all people shitting on Blizzard now: I don't agree with what they did either, but you got to cut them some slack. Blizzard made BW and they didn't just come in and try to call the shots. They stepped in after Kespa tried to profit from their game and they did try to organise events (with GOM). Hate on Activision/Blizzard all you want, but Kespa is at least as bad and greedy as them, if not even worse: They didn't pushed Blizzard out and basically crushed GOM only to secure their standing in the BW scene that they didn't even create.
You're throwing the companies around here. OGN did come to an agreement with Gretech, MBC are the ones that couldn't. The reason is simple: MBC doesn't have the money to host a SC2 league besides the existing one, since they don't have a major sponsor like OGN strengthening their back. You simply cannot blame MBC for not having any interest in promoting SC2. And I can understand that, cause the game fucking sucks. Blizzard has to give credit to MBC though because they helped advertising Starcraft so much that without them, there would've been much less of a hype for Starcraft 2 in Korea. This is about Blizzard being fucking unthankful and greedy.
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
We've had analogy discussions before on this point, and yours is no better because it is too basic. No analogy can cover all the details of these negotiations nor the history. Remember this: Blizzard has invited KeSPA sanctioned players to Blizzcons before to promote their games. This implies that they support BW/KeSPA before this whole ordeal. Also, payment=free advertisement. That's pretty good considering I heard Blizzard spent 20million+ on advertisement for SC2.
Kespa could have always approached Blizzard to negotiate a contract long before the other way 'round. Kespa didn't have to wait for Blizz to come knocking.
If both sides knew it was coming, like people are saying, then why couldn't Kespa have made the first move?
Wait, what? Why should KeSPA have made a contract in the first place? Blizzard never cared, and even endorsed their players by inviting them to Blizzcon... until now.
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
We've had analogy discussions before on this point, and yours is no better because it is too basic. No analogy can cover all the details of these negotiations nor the history. Remember this: Blizzard has invited KeSPA sanctioned players to Blizzcons before to promote their games. This implies that they support BW/KeSPA before this whole ordeal. Also, payment=free advertisement. That's pretty good considering I heard Blizzard spent 20million+ on advertisement for SC2.
Kespa could have always approached Blizzard to negotiate a contract long before the other way 'round. Kespa didn't have to wait for Blizz to come knocking.
If both sides knew it was coming, like people are saying, then why couldn't Kespa have made the first move?
Wait, what? Why should KeSPA have made a contract in the first place? Blizzard never cared, and even endorsed their players by inviting them to Blizzcon... until now.
EXACTLY! Thank you. I almost forgot that Blizzard even endorsed the players under kespa by inviting them to their events because they knew how much of an advertisement they were giving to their game. And now they're acting like they've always been against the fact that their property is being used. God this fuels my hate even more.
If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
You do realise that most progamers look down on SC2 with disdain, right?
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
Then you are just a tool. Everbody and their grandmother knows that BW > SC2 as a spectator sport. SC2 is boring as fuck.
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting.
In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players.
I just read over the thread, granted I didn't read every post, but I can't find one valid argument for OGN not being able to come to an agreement with Gretech. Some people say that MBC just can "afford" it because they got the bigger sponsors, but I can't imaginge Gretech forcing OGN to pay the same amount of money when they have half of the founds available (just an example).
Further to all people shitting on Blizzard now: I don't agree with what they did either, but you got to cut them some slack. Blizzard made BW and they didn't just come in and try to call the shots. They stepped in after Kespa tried to profit from their game and they did try to organise events (with GOM). Hate on Activision/Blizzard all you want, but Kespa is at least as bad and greedy as them, if not even worse: They didn't pushed Blizzard out and basically crushed GOM only to secure their standing in the BW scene that they didn't even create.
BW became so famous because of Korean Progaming Scene .. Why Blizzard so stubbornly would like to ruin this scene now?
Sure, I understand that both parties would like some shares of the money, yes I can understand that. But what makes it so difficult to reach an agreement. A live pro gaming scene will obviously made fortune to Blizzard one way or another, so why not letting KesPa to live? Blizzard made money from WoW, merchandise, game selling, and so on and so on. Why is it so difficult to share some of the cake? Yes, take some money from licensing or whatever, but just don't ruin it to the point you will regret it yourself.
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting.
In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players.
I just read over the thread, granted I didn't read every post, but I can't find one valid argument for OGN not being able to come to an agreement with Gretech. Some people say that MBC just can "afford" it because they got the bigger sponsors, but I can't imaginge Gretech forcing OGN to pay the same amount of money when they have half of the founds available (just an example).
Further to all people shitting on Blizzard now: I don't agree with what they did either, but you got to cut them some slack. Blizzard made BW and they didn't just come in and try to call the shots. They stepped in after Kespa tried to profit from their game and they did try to organise events (with GOM). Hate on Activision/Blizzard all you want, but Kespa is at least as bad and greedy as them, if not even worse: They didn't pushed Blizzard out and basically crushed GOM only to secure their standing in the BW scene that they didn't even create.
You're throwing the companies around here. OGN did come to an agreement with Gretech, MBC are the ones that couldn't. The reason is simple: MBC doesn't have the money to host a SC2 league besides the existing one, since they don't have a major sponsor like OGN strengthening their back. You simply cannot blame MBC for not having any interest in promoting SC2. And I can understand that, cause the game fucking sucks. Blizzard has to give credit to MBC though because they helped advertising Starcraft so much that without them, there would've been much less of a hype for Starcraft 2 in Korea. This is about Blizzard being fucking unthankful and greedy.
sorry I screwed the broadcasting stations up. Ok, with this explanation I can understand them not coming to an agreement, though I don't believe that there is no way to come to an understanding. Looking at all the tournaments spawning here you'd think that there'd be some company would be willing to sponsor a tournament.
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price.
If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed?
If so, you've got issues.
edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house.
Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting.
In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players.
I just read over the thread, granted I didn't read every post, but I can't find one valid argument for OGN not being able to come to an agreement with Gretech. Some people say that MBC just can "afford" it because they got the bigger sponsors, but I can't imaginge Gretech forcing OGN to pay the same amount of money when they have half of the founds available (just an example).
Further to all people shitting on Blizzard now: I don't agree with what they did either, but you got to cut them some slack. Blizzard made BW and they didn't just come in and try to call the shots. They stepped in after Kespa tried to profit from their game and they did try to organise events (with GOM). Hate on Activision/Blizzard all you want, but Kespa is at least as bad and greedy as them, if not even worse: They didn't pushed Blizzard out and basically crushed GOM only to secure their standing in the BW scene that they didn't even create.
BW became so famous because of Korean Progaming Scene .. Why Blizzard so stubbornly would like to ruin this scene now?
Sure, I understand that both parties would like some shares of the money, yes I can understand that. But what makes it so difficult to reach an agreement. A live pro gaming scene will obviously made fortune to Blizzard one way or another, so why not letting KesPa to live? Blizzard made money from WoW, merchandise, game selling, and so on and so on. Why is it so difficult to share some of the cake? Yes, take some money from licensing or whatever, but just don't ruin it to the point you will regret it yourself.
F*ck this, soccer gone awry, now this?
I totally share your point of view here. You'd think they'd be able to come to an agreement. I don't want to judge and of those, I'm just saying that Kespa is exactly the same. Sure the korean scene made SCBW big, but Blizzard made SCBW. What Blizzard does now is wrong, but so are Kespas actions selling the broadcasting rights for Blizzards game and forcing Blizzard out with GOM (correct me if I'm wrong but Blizzard was a main sponsor for gom, right?)
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
Then you are just a tool. Everbody and their grandmother knows that BW > SC2 as a spectator sport. SC2 is boring as fuck.
I totally share your point of view here. You'd think they'd be able to come to an agreement. I don't want to judge and of those, I'm just saying that Kespa is exactly the same. Sure the korean scene made SCBW big, but Blizzard made SCBW. What Blizzard does now is wrong, but so are Kespas actions selling the broadcasting rights for Blizzards game and forcing Blizzard out with GOM (correct me if I'm wrong but Blizzard was a main sponsor for gom, right?)
Nope. Blizzard wasn't the main sponsor for GOM TV intel classic, they just granted the broadcasting rights. Sponsor of GOM TV classic have been TG Sambo and Intel.
I totally share your point of view here. You'd think they'd be able to come to an agreement. I don't want to judge and of those, I'm just saying that Kespa is exactly the same. Sure the korean scene made SCBW big, but Blizzard made SCBW. What Blizzard does now is wrong, but so are Kespas actions selling the broadcasting rights for Blizzards game and forcing Blizzard out with GOM (correct me if I'm wrong but Blizzard was a main sponsor for gom, right?)
Nope. Blizzard wasn't the main sponsor for GOM TV intel classic, they just granted the broadcasting rights. Sponsor of GOM TV classic have been TG Sambo and Intel.
I think Blizzard also threw in some extra prize money as well. I remember Tasteless constantly reminding viewers about the bigger prize pool thanks to Blizz
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
Jaedong: please, please Blizzard kill the game that lets me make hundreds and thousands of bucks and makes me super famous in my country so I can try my hand at something else and maybe, possibly regain half of my fame, at a game that is not as popular as the old one in korea at that *Jaedong crosses his finger in hope Blizzard kills SC:BW*
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
You do realise that most progamers look down on SC2 with disdain, right?
this too, If I recall Flash said SC2 sucks in Nal_ra's oldboy at some point in the show.
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that I read that Blizzard started sponsoring GOM TV mid 09 and fall 09 Kespa pulled the teams out
/edit: just looked it up. I can't find a thread or something similar, but Liquipedia also mentions that Blizzard partnered with GOM during Season 3 (and put in 50 Mio Won). So call it "upcoming" sponsor if you like but they did try to put a considerable amount in.
On September 01 2010 01:27 xlep wrote: Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that I read that Blizzard started sponsoring GOM TV mid 09 and fall 09 Kespa pulled the teams out
Blizzard has not been the OFFICIAL SPONSOR, that is certain. They granted the broadcasting rights though, that way GOM TV dodged kespa who wanted to sell the broadcasting rights originally. Kespa got pissed off about this and pulled the proteams out of GOM TV Intel classic.
I hated that move, but Blizzard's reaction stands in no comparison to that.
I totally share your point of view here. You'd think they'd be able to come to an agreement. I don't want to judge and of those, I'm just saying that Kespa is exactly the same. Sure the korean scene made SCBW big, but Blizzard made SCBW. What Blizzard does now is wrong, but so are Kespas actions selling the broadcasting rights for Blizzards game and forcing Blizzard out with GOM (correct me if I'm wrong but Blizzard was a main sponsor for gom, right?)
Let us pray that this will be resolved soon. And hopefully those two can live happily ever after :D Lol ..
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
me neither. Why the should I? Storyline is a joke. And just look how Activision fucked up battlenet 0.2. Have fun with a game that you haven't bought but playing for rent according to the license agreement.
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
neither have I.
O well then. your loss. Enjoy playing bw. it was a great game. but the Scene needs new air. And sc2 will bring that, merging the scenes. much more appealing as well to spectators.
On September 01 2010 01:27 xlep wrote: Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that I read that Blizzard started sponsoring GOM TV mid 09 and fall 09 Kespa pulled the teams out
Blizzard has not been the OFFICIAL SPONSOR, that is certain. They granted the broadcasting rights though, that way GOM TV dodged kespa who wanted to sell the broadcasting rights originally. Kespa got pissed off about this and pulled the proteams out of GOM TV Intel classic.
I hated that move, but Blizzard's reaction stands in no comparison to that.
So Kespa selling broadcasting rights to GOM is ok, but Blizzard selling them to OGN (via Gretech) isnt? With all respect to Kespa, but SC1 is still a game that Blizzard made and no company other then Blizzard has the right to sell broadcasting rights for it.
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
neither have I.
O well then. your loss. Enjoy playing bw. its pretty dead i hear. Scene needs new air. And sc2 will bring that, merging the scenes. much more appealing as well to spectators.
yeah, spectators love units to clump up into one giant ball that rolls over the map. NICE.
On September 01 2010 00:26 konadora wrote: fuck you blizzard, seriously.
fucking leave brood war alone already.
Seriously. Fucking Blizzard. Just leave us hardcore BW fans alone. Don't try to force on me your fucking product because the harder you try the more I find it disgusting...
On September 01 2010 01:27 xlep wrote: Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that I read that Blizzard started sponsoring GOM TV mid 09 and fall 09 Kespa pulled the teams out
Blizzard has not been the OFFICIAL SPONSOR, that is certain. They granted the broadcasting rights though, that way GOM TV dodged kespa who wanted to sell the broadcasting rights originally. Kespa got pissed off about this and pulled the proteams out of GOM TV Intel classic.
I hated that move, but Blizzard's reaction stands in no comparison to that.
So Kespa selling broadcasting rights to GOM is ok, but Blizzard selling them to OGN (via Gretech) isnt? With all respect to Kespa, but SC1 is still a game that Blizzard made and no company other then Blizzard has the right to sell broadcasting rights for it.
Hard to believe but you're still missing the issue. Go and read my post from the last page again.
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
neither have I.
O well then. your loss. Enjoy playing bw. its pretty dead i hear. Scene needs new air. And sc2 will bring that, merging the scenes. much more appealing as well to spectators.
Oh, and also: As you can see, there is no real merge that is happening. It's rather the old fans being disgusted by blizzard, and the new ones trying to hype a shitty product.
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
neither have I.
O well then. your loss. Enjoy playing bw. its pretty dead i hear. Scene needs new air. And sc2 will bring that, merging the scenes. much more appealing as well to spectators.
yeah, spectators love units to clump up into one giant ball that rolls over the map. NICE.
Game has evolved quite a bit since then. its much harder then that.
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
neither have I.
O well then. your loss. Enjoy playing bw. its pretty dead i hear. Scene needs new air. And sc2 will bring that, merging the scenes. much more appealing as well to spectators.
yeah, spectators love units to clump up into one giant ball that rolls over the map. NICE.
It's better to just leave him alone, he probably hasnt even seen a pro bw match in his life.
In other news, fuck blizz I find it disgusting i actually was a big fan of that company some years ago and pumped up as hell about sc2.
On August 31 2010 20:16 Holgerius wrote: Goddamnit Blizzard, I'm gonna boycott your stuff from now on. >:[
This. And I won't log into SC2 ever again if things stay that way (I played with some friends cause they did not wan't to play broodwar... I'm sad.).
Is anyone 100% sure of all facts about the situation? Can anyone blame Blizzard entirely for this? Is Kespa an organisation which we ought to love and blindly follow?
I've never considered Kespa to be a "players association" It consists of the financial dudes behind the leagues, no players. The majority of the players are hardly payed, their "freedom" as free agents or players before that is ridicilous.
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
me neither. Why the should I? Storyline is a joke. And just look how Activision fucked up battlenet 0.2. Have fun with a game that you haven't bought but playing for rent according to the license agreement.
story line is a joke and u havn't bought the game? out of curiosity since BW's story line is so wonderful have you played any game besides bw in the past 11 years? do you live in a cave? SC2 had a really really good storyline imo. but haters gonna hate..
I never though to say that, but... ...now I hope that one day Relic (or other talented company, as I hate THQ) will make the perfectly balanced, competetive RTS, and the Koreans will find the potential in this as e-sport, and than the Activision Loozard (dont confuse it with Blizzard) will sunk into it's own shit.
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
me neither. Why the should I? Storyline is a joke. And just look how Activision fucked up battlenet 0.2. Have fun with a game that you haven't bought but playing for rent according to the license agreement.
story line is a joke and u havn't bought the game? out of curiosity since BW's story line is so wonderful have you played any game besides bw in the past 11 years? do you live in a cave?
Haha I actually spoiled myself via Youtube and read the summaries on various sites. It sounds really lame to me, and a lot of people who actually played it think so too.
I played some World of Warcraft besides bw, I also like Team Fortress 2.
You could argue that you can only rent WoW as well just like SC2, but since WoW is a constantly evolving MMO which requires online access by nature, these are two completely different animals.
I never though to say that, but... ...now I hope that one day Relic (or other talented company, as I hate THQ) will make the perfectly balanced, competetive RTS, and the Koreans will find the potential in this as e-sport, and than the Activision Loozard (dont confuse it with Blizzard) will sunk into it's own shit.
Yea THQ relic has some potential only missing on the balance patches and better support imo. But well sc2 too surely won't be balanced until the last protoss expansion so a lot of QQ the next few years.. and they failed with wc3 and WoW too
This isnt a BW vs SC2 debate, or even a BW vs SC2 issue. Its all about money and which organization is going to control the scene. People need to stop letting there personal feelings about BW or SC2 color their judgement. Starcraft2 has nothing to do with any of this, its Blizzard fighting with Kespa over who will control the pro-scene.
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
You do realise that most progamers look down on SC2 with disdain, right?
Brood war's gameplay and depth has developed for 12 years. Starcraft 2's gameplay and depth has developed for about a half year.
Bw pro gamers consider sc2 to be easy, bw to be difficult.
Should we never give sc2 a chance? Should we never give another game a chance even if we find it funny because bw is the most difficult?
The difficulty of the game is completely irrelevant at this time, come back to in 11,5 years and then we can discuss it.
The potential is all we should look at. there are major leagues coming up and the game is getting big.
On September 01 2010 01:27 xlep wrote: Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that I read that Blizzard started sponsoring GOM TV mid 09 and fall 09 Kespa pulled the teams out
Blizzard has not been the OFFICIAL SPONSOR, that is certain. They granted the broadcasting rights though, that way GOM TV dodged kespa who wanted to sell the broadcasting rights originally. Kespa got pissed off about this and pulled the proteams out of GOM TV Intel classic.
I hated that move, but Blizzard's reaction stands in no comparison to that.
So Kespa selling broadcasting rights to GOM is ok, but Blizzard selling them to OGN (via Gretech) isnt? With all respect to Kespa, but SC1 is still a game that Blizzard made and no company other then Blizzard has the right to sell broadcasting rights for it.
They don't sell right to broadcast SC, but team players to play in your league. Teams cost more to run, leagues must share profit, they share it in every other sport. GOM could make amateur leagues all they wanted it wasn't fair for them to not pay the teams, and use they players.
The only bad thing is PR issue of calling it broadcasting fees, when it isn't about Kespa calming rights for SC at all, all they claim is right to decide where players that they hire will play.
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
You do realise that most progamers look down on SC2 with disdain, right?
Brood war's gameplay and depth has developed for 12 years. Starcraft 2's gameplay and depth has developed for about a half year.
Bw pro gamers consider sc2 to be easy, bw to be difficult.
Should we never give sc2 a chance? Should we never give another game a chance even if we find it funny because bw is the most difficult?
The difficulty of the game is completely irrelevant at this time, come back to in 11,5 years and then we can discuss it.
The potential is all we should look at. there are major leagues coming up and the game is getting big.
bw players dont play sc2. so how can they say its easy.
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
You do realise that most progamers look down on SC2 with disdain, right?
Brood war's gameplay and depth has developed for 12 years. Starcraft 2's gameplay and depth has developed for about a half year.
Bw pro gamers consider sc2 to be easy, bw to be difficult.
Should we never give sc2 a chance? Should we never give another game a chance even if we find it funny because bw is the most difficult?
The difficulty of the game is completely irrelevant at this time, come back to in 11,5 years and then we can discuss it.
The potential is all we should look at. there are major leagues coming up and the game is getting big.
So what you're suggesting is that we shouldn't care about proteams getting disbanded and leagues forced to come to an end, and rather look how we can put bw out of the way as soon as possible to have a free road for sc2?
marketing dept. while they convince you that it's a good game. Watch them destroy the only succesfull esportscene in the world for your petty dreams of SC2.
It's a tragedy. Once they made good games, now they + Show Spoiler +
fucks
us fans without a single hesitation, just for the profit.
marketing dept. while they convince you that it's a good game. Watch them destroy the only succesfull esportscene in the world for your petty dreams of SC2.
It's a tragedy. Once they made good games, now they + Show Spoiler +
fucks
us fans without a single hesitation, just for the profit.
edit. foul language.
? Theres so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin but the root of the problem seems to be your thought process so lets start there. BW isn't doing anything to further the growth of esports. esports will never go beyond anything other then a small niche like rock paper scissors world tournament if New games dont come to the plate.
marketing dept. while they convince you that it's a good game. Watch them destroy the only succesfull esportscene in the world for your petty dreams of SC2.
It's a tragedy. Once they made good games, now they + Show Spoiler +
fucks
us fans without a single hesitation, just for the profit.
edit. foul language.
? Theres so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin but the root of the problem seems to be your thought process so lets start there. BW isn't doing anything to further the growth of esports. esports will never go beyond anything other then a small niche like rock paper scissors world tournament if New games dont come to the plate.
Did you even watch the MSL finals? I totally recruited 4 of my nerd friends who weren't yet into esports to my place to watch the finals. They are now all fans. New games, while always welcome, don't necessarily mean progress. Chess is ancient but is still going strong as a game.
? Theres so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin but the root of the problem seems to be your thought process so lets start there. BW isn't doing anything to further the growth of esports. esports will never go beyond anything other then a small niche like rock paper scissors world tournament if New games dont come to the plate.
So why don't these new shiny games develop a great new e-sport scene outside of korea? Cleary it's Kespa fault they are stopping the e-sport worldwide rofl
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
You do realise that most progamers look down on SC2 with disdain, right?
Brood war's gameplay and depth has developed for 12 years. Starcraft 2's gameplay and depth has developed for about a half year.
Bw pro gamers consider sc2 to be easy, bw to be difficult.
Should we never give sc2 a chance? Should we never give another game a chance even if we find it funny because bw is the most difficult?
The difficulty of the game is completely irrelevant at this time, come back to in 11,5 years and then we can discuss it.
The potential is all we should look at. there are major leagues coming up and the game is getting big.
1st argument is basically like Brawl will become competitive argument. People have BW experience, while people who developed BW had little experience with RTSes of its style. That 1/2 a year also has a larger dedicated/competitive fanbase. It should, in theory, develop faster.
We are giving SC2 a chance. But should we kill BW JUST to give SC2 a chance? Why can't Blizzard leave BW alone and have them run side-by-side? And is there anything wrong with people who don't? Why should either side try and force one onto the other? Especially since this is the BW section of TL.
On September 01 2010 01:25 swanized wrote: this too, If I recall Flash said SC2 sucks in Nal_ra's oldboy at some point in the show.
He just said that the shield regen is bullshit. Get your facts straight. All the BW elitists here seems to have a problem with that.
I got the impression that NaDa enjoyed playing SC2 quite alot in his showmatch vs TLO.
Also, don't you think there's a very good reason Flash/Jeadong would say SC2 is bad? I mean if everyone switch over to SC2 they will be done as stars (unless they switch over aswell which is a risky move careerwise)
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
me neither. Why the should I? Storyline is a joke. And just look how Activision fucked up battlenet 0.2. Have fun with a game that you haven't bought but playing for rent according to the license agreement.
story line is a joke and u havn't bought the game? out of curiosity since BW's story line is so wonderful have you played any game besides bw in the past 11 years? do you live in a cave?
Haha I actually spoiled myself via Youtube and read the summaries on various sites. It sounds really lame to me, and a lot of people who actually played it think so too.
The story is quite bad but the missions and gameplay are GREAT. Welcome to the jungle in brutal will be one of my most memorable solo RTS moment
sc2 is not bad, it just feels wrong. but that's only my point of view. i seriously hope they'll find a solution...if bw dies, sad times are coming. The love still grows, and I don't want this new game to be THE e-sport in the next years, if bw has to die. (no pl means no bw)
i think mbc is trying to ice blizz for as long as possible. when blizz does actually bring in a lawsuit or something serious like that mbc will cave in. at least i hope.
marketing dept. while they convince you that it's a good game. Watch them destroy the only succesfull esportscene in the world for your petty dreams of SC2.
It's a tragedy. Once they made good games, now they + Show Spoiler +
fucks
us fans without a single hesitation, just for the profit.
edit. foul language.
? Theres so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin but the root of the problem seems to be your thought process so lets start there. BW isn't doing anything to further the growth of esports. esports will never go beyond anything other then a small niche like rock paper scissors world tournament if New games dont come to the plate.
Yea, let's just pump out shitty RTS clones of chess and hope ritalinfeeded kids can't tell cowshit from catshit. Every year we should play a new game because hell fucking yes, Starcraft had it's primetime far before BoxeR won his first tournament. Hoooo!
Grow the fuck up and realize the game needs to be played and balanced for years before a decent esportscene can grow. The players decide what game is good and the fans decide if it's worth watching and it will take time. If you want to circlejerk around SC2, fine. Just stop your ridicilous argument that Blizzard has the right to shut down the Starcraftscene.
I'm very unhappy with the whole "Blizzard snipes BW"-thing... Can't SC2 and BW just co-exist peacefully?! In my youth, I never got the opportunity to go deeply into BW, now I finally got here, learned some more RTS through SC2, and feel ready to go into BW eventually. And now it seems Blizzard is decided to wipe out the BW pro-scene completely, like protosses some infested planet.
marketing dept. while they convince you that it's a good game. Watch them destroy the only succesfull esportscene in the world for your petty dreams of SC2.
It's a tragedy. Once they made good games, now they + Show Spoiler +
fucks
us fans without a single hesitation, just for the profit.
edit. foul language.
? Theres so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin but the root of the problem seems to be your thought process so lets start there. BW isn't doing anything to further the growth of esports. esports will never go beyond anything other then a small niche like rock paper scissors world tournament if New games dont come to the plate.
Yea, let's just pump out shitty RTS clones of chess and hope ritalinfeeded kids can't tell cowshit from catshit. Every year we should play a new game because hell fucking yes, Starcraft had it's primetime far before BoxeR won his first tournament. Hoooo!
Grow the fuck up and realize the game needs to be played and balanced for years before a decent esportscene can grow. The players decide what game is good and the fans decide if it's worth watching and it will take time. If you want to circlejerk around SC2, fine. Just stop your ridicilous argument that Blizzard has the right to shut down the Starcraftscene.
No it doesn't lmao. the $ is there. So the players will b. I can bet you alot more people want to go pro in sc2 then in bw. so you know id say that sc2 is doing very well right now. grow up. sc2 is excellent and the Best RTS we've had in a long long time.
On September 01 2010 01:25 swanized wrote: this too, If I recall Flash said SC2 sucks in Nal_ra's oldboy at some point in the show.
He just said that the shield regen is bullshit. Get your facts straight. All the BW elitists here seems to have a problem with that.
I got the impression that NaDa enjoyed playing SC2 quite alot in his showmatch vs TLO.
Also, don't you think there's a very good reason Flash/Jeadong would say SC2 is bad? I mean if everyone switch over to SC2 they will be done as stars (unless they switch over aswell which is a risky move careerwise)
Actually, Violet said that infinite ranged shield batteries sound like starcraft2, lol. I don't recall Flash saying anything about SC2. =/
Fucking shit why do they even ask for some money if MBCGame and OnGameNet are non-profit entities anyways? Goddamn I'm gonna go around and delete GOMplayer from all of our computers.
On September 01 2010 01:56 Endbringer wrote: This isnt a BW vs SC2 debate, or even a BW vs SC2 issue. Its all about money and which organization is going to control the scene. People need to stop letting there personal feelings about BW or SC2 color their judgement. Starcraft2 has nothing to do with any of this, its Blizzard fighting with Kespa over who will control the pro-scene.
SC2 has everything to do with this issue, why do you think Blizzard suddenly wants loyalty for BW since all these years? Blizzard could care less about the survival of BW e-sports, let alone to control it. Blizzard is trying all the ways to shove SC2 down our throats and destroying BW scene will not help people buy into their bullshit.
On September 01 2010 01:27 xlep wrote: Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that I read that Blizzard started sponsoring GOM TV mid 09 and fall 09 Kespa pulled the teams out
Blizzard has not been the OFFICIAL SPONSOR, that is certain. They granted the broadcasting rights though, that way GOM TV dodged kespa who wanted to sell the broadcasting rights originally. Kespa got pissed off about this and pulled the proteams out of GOM TV Intel classic.
I hated that move, but Blizzard's reaction stands in no comparison to that.
So Kespa selling broadcasting rights to GOM is ok, but Blizzard selling them to OGN (via Gretech) isnt? With all respect to Kespa, but SC1 is still a game that Blizzard made and no company other then Blizzard has the right to sell broadcasting rights for it.
Hard to believe but you're still missing the issue. Go and read my post from the last page again.
I don't think I'm missing the issue here. Granted GomTV may not have been as prestigious and involved in the scene as OGN is and Blizzard wasn't involved in creating the scene, but people shouldn't just shit all over Blizzard and Gretech without considering the past events. Blizzard only cut in Kespas buisness after they sold broadcasting rights they didn't own. Also Blizzard may not have been an official sponsor for any Gom tournament, but they sponsored them with 50 mio won in season 3 (trusting liquipedia here), be it for the prizepool or for season 4. Later Kespa pulled the players out (for whatever reason) and pushed Gom out of the BW scene. How can you judge Blizzard or Gretech for that matter for enforcing their rights now and telling Kespa "not without us".
Again I'm not saying "it's all good", but Kespa has brought this upon themselves by pushing those two out to keep the status quo and keep control over all aspects of the korean bw scene.
On September 01 2010 02:44 ArvickHero wrote: Fucking shit why do they even ask for some money if MBCGame and OnGameNet are non-profit entities anyways? Goddamn I'm gonna go around and delete GOMplayer from all of our computers.
well they probably make money from ads and stuff but yea this is really sad. chill don't be mean! spotlight this please
I just love these guys like FindingPride, they said like everybody should have a better tought process, and his only reason on why SC2 is better for e-sports than BW is that some big money is already in a tournament and it is new, as somebody already stated: grow up kid, TV ratings (which is what matters in e-sports) dont go in that way, you first need a balance game that really excel from the spectator point of view, something that can reach the casual spectators not only the players, once you got that you need an organization in order to give good and fair content and determine rules, then you need sponsors and broadcasting. So put something else than one neurone and tell me now in those aspects how is SC2 superior than BW?.
Who cares what Blizzard or Kespa did in the past, too much politics and money involved for anyone to completely understand what's going on. I only know We want PL/MSL/OSL now, today and in the future what's so hard to understand? If Sc2 is as great as people think then it shouldn't be a problem for the popularity of sc2 when the leagues continue and i have no problem if sc2 "legally" grows bigger than BW. But Gretech is scared of PL.
MBC had complained they didnt like that they needed a contract per tournament being as MBC has 2 events as opposed to OSL's 1. (this was from an older news post on TL) From what i understand thats always been the main problem and i guess GOM had just suspected MBC would sign by now. the issue with Kespa seems to be the same old both struggling over power, in defense ide take GOM everytime over Kespa because i enjoy english live casting and a more international approach but thats just me. OGN has a contract and can do its next SCBW Season while as of tomorrow MBC would be violating Blizzards ISP rights and i assume be subject to some sort of legal action because of copywrite infringement. (which you would assume if they did violate would really tarnish the tv station).
Not a fan of BW dieing, but it seems like Blizzard is going through a lot to make sure SC2 is more successful in Korea. Atleast from my knowledge that's what it seems, but I'm not too up to date on everything
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think OGN signed a deal with Gretech, no? And according to OP, MBC has been offered the same deal, right? If so, I don't understand all the hate towards blizzard in this thread.
On September 01 2010 01:27 xlep wrote: Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that I read that Blizzard started sponsoring GOM TV mid 09 and fall 09 Kespa pulled the teams out
Blizzard has not been the OFFICIAL SPONSOR, that is certain. They granted the broadcasting rights though, that way GOM TV dodged kespa who wanted to sell the broadcasting rights originally. Kespa got pissed off about this and pulled the proteams out of GOM TV Intel classic.
I hated that move, but Blizzard's reaction stands in no comparison to that.
So Kespa selling broadcasting rights to GOM is ok, but Blizzard selling them to OGN (via Gretech) isnt? With all respect to Kespa, but SC1 is still a game that Blizzard made and no company other then Blizzard has the right to sell broadcasting rights for it.
Hard to believe but you're still missing the issue. Go and read my post from the last page again.
I don't think I'm missing the issue here. Granted GomTV may not have been as prestigious and involved in the scene as OGN is and Blizzard wasn't involved in creating the scene, but people shouldn't just shit all over Blizzard and Gretech without considering the past events. Blizzard only cut in Kespas buisness after they sold broadcasting rights they didn't own. Also Blizzard may not have been an official sponsor for any Gom tournament, but they sponsored them with 50 mio won in season 3 (trusting liquipedia here), be it for the prizepool or for season 4. Later Kespa pulled the players out (for whatever reason) and pushed Gom out of the BW scene. How can you judge Blizzard or Gretech for that matter for enforcing their rights now and telling Kespa "not without us".
Again I'm not saying "it's all good", but Kespa has brought this upon themselves by pushing those two out to keep the status quo and keep control over all aspects of the korean bw scene.
The point is that the conditions under which Activision Blizzard are selling the broadcasting rights to OGN aren't fair and can only be matched because OGN has a huge sponsor who is willing to put the OSL in a new SC2 format. This cannot apply on MBC, literally forcing them out of business.
And please don't act like Blizzard cut in that late because they just found out that they need to protect their broadcasting rights, they knew exactly that kespa held the broadcasting rights for almost a decade and gave a fuck. Which isn't even entirely true, because like another user already said, kespa just has the right to decide which events the players they have under contract are attending or not. Gom TV would've been allowed to run their tournament, just not with the players that kespa has under contract. Which is understandable for kespa.
On September 01 2010 03:09 jambonkingcool wrote: Maybe I'm wrong, but I think OGN signed a deal with Gretech, no? And according to OP, MBC has been offered the same deal, right? If so, I don't understand all the hate towards blizzard in this thread.
Your question has been answered about 100000000 times by now. Btw, my last post explains it AGAIN.
More huffing and puffing. I'll believe there wont be an MSL when I actually don't see one. This is the internet and I expect non-stop overreacting to every news blip, but this is the umpteenth time we've heard things like this yet people still get excited and start the fuck Kespa/Gom/Blizzard train.
This is why Blizzard shouldn't be able to have *this* much control over their game. It's complete conflict. One company wants to sell games, another wants to create an awesome eSport scene. One doesn't have a real interest in eSports and only looks at it as a promotional tool for their business.
Until nobody knows the detail about what Blizzard Activision / Gretech demand from Kespa & OGN and MBC, imo its useless to discuss because there is no way to stay in reality and find a decent solution.
I mean, does somebody knows how much money Blizzard claim for BW???
Or the profit of Kespa. OGN and MBC by using BW??
There is no facts we must know to argue reasonable about these decisions made by Kespa and Blizzard. .
Pity though that the royal SCBW fans have to suffer under these endless negotiation.
because end of sc1 means we get to see flash n jaedong play sc2. sorry for hardcore bw fans, but I just haven't gotten into it like you guys have. but i am a sc2 fan
On September 01 2010 02:47 xlep wrote: wow afk for an hour and I'm barely able to find my post
On September 01 2010 01:39 Gregsen wrote:
On September 01 2010 01:37 xlep wrote:
On September 01 2010 01:31 Gregsen wrote:
On September 01 2010 01:27 xlep wrote: Are you sure? I'm pretty sure that I read that Blizzard started sponsoring GOM TV mid 09 and fall 09 Kespa pulled the teams out
Blizzard has not been the OFFICIAL SPONSOR, that is certain. They granted the broadcasting rights though, that way GOM TV dodged kespa who wanted to sell the broadcasting rights originally. Kespa got pissed off about this and pulled the proteams out of GOM TV Intel classic.
I hated that move, but Blizzard's reaction stands in no comparison to that.
So Kespa selling broadcasting rights to GOM is ok, but Blizzard selling them to OGN (via Gretech) isnt? With all respect to Kespa, but SC1 is still a game that Blizzard made and no company other then Blizzard has the right to sell broadcasting rights for it.
Hard to believe but you're still missing the issue. Go and read my post from the last page again.
I don't think I'm missing the issue here. Granted GomTV may not have been as prestigious and involved in the scene as OGN is and Blizzard wasn't involved in creating the scene, but people shouldn't just shit all over Blizzard and Gretech without considering the past events. Blizzard only cut in Kespas buisness after they sold broadcasting rights they didn't own. Also Blizzard may not have been an official sponsor for any Gom tournament, but they sponsored them with 50 mio won in season 3 (trusting liquipedia here), be it for the prizepool or for season 4. Later Kespa pulled the players out (for whatever reason) and pushed Gom out of the BW scene. How can you judge Blizzard or Gretech for that matter for enforcing their rights now and telling Kespa "not without us".
Again I'm not saying "it's all good", but Kespa has brought this upon themselves by pushing those two out to keep the status quo and keep control over all aspects of the korean bw scene.
The point is that the conditions under which Activision Blizzard are selling the broadcasting rights to OGN aren't fair and can only be matched because OGN has a huge sponsor who is willing to put the OSL in a new SC2 format. This cannot apply on MBC, literally forcing them out of business.
And please don't act like Blizzard cut in that late because they just found out that they need to protect their broadcasting rights, they knew exactly that kespa held the broadcasting rights for almost a decade and gave a fuck. Which isn't even entirely true, because like another user already said, kespa just has the right to decide which events the players they have under contract are attending or not. Gom TV would've been allowed to run their tournament, just not with the players that kespa has under contract. Which is understandable for kespa.
But what's the point of running a tournament without pro-players in Korea? Sure Kespa has the right to pull their players out, but in the same train of thought Blizzard has the right to deny Kespa/OGN/MBC broadcasting sc1. Again: I don't like Blizzard enforcing all the shit going down now, but Kespa did the same thing by pulling their players out of the Gom TV tournament. I'm saying that I can understand Blizzard/Gretech forcing their conditions on OGN/MBC now even if they're unreasonable.
Also I never said that Blizzard wanted to protect "their" broadcasting rights. They are a company and so their sole purpose is to make money, same as Kespa's purpose is to make money (possibly not for "kespa" but for the teams, broadcasting stations etc.). And Kespa selling rights that Blizzard owns, and probably neither informing them nor cutting them a part, is just wrong.
There sure are a lot of people making exaggerated arguments based on information that they do not have. Must be why they moved this into the SC2 forum.
why is everyone talking about activision blizzard its gretech owning the rights for korea
blizzard has nothing to do with it since they sold the rights to gretech
as kespa doesnt seem to even think about using sc2 for their tournaments i hope they are going to die out. bad day for esports, but sometimes bad things are needed to grow.
well now that this is in the sc2 forums, there is no need to discuss further. People are just gonna storm this, ignoring all the arguments that have been given.
I'm expecting some death threats towards the Blizz and Activision staff :/... And with all honesty, stopping a huge corporation is pretty much impossible. TL Terrorist group would probably be the most effective way to stop Blizzard killing the BW scene.
After all, some things are just worth fighting for.
On September 01 2010 03:22 viraltouch wrote: because end of sc1 means we get to see flash n jaedong play sc2. sorry for hardcore bw fans, but I just haven't gotten into it like you guys have. but i am a sc2 fan
On September 01 2010 03:22 viraltouch wrote: because end of sc1 means we get to see flash n jaedong play sc2. sorry for hardcore bw fans, but I just haven't gotten into it like you guys have. but i am a sc2 fan
On September 01 2010 03:28 imperator-xy wrote: why is everyone talking about activision blizzard its gretech owning the rights for korea
blizzard has nothing to do with it since they sold the rights to gretech
as kespa doesnt seem to even think about using sc2 for their tournaments i hope they are going to die out. bad day for esports, but sometimes bad things are needed to grow.
Basically it's Gretech enforcing their conditions yes, but since they got the rights from Blizzard and Blizzard sponsors them big time Blizzard probably also dictates a part of the conditions or at least agrees to Gretechs position. It's kind of the same as OGN/MBC - Kespa. Kespa is not negotiating with Gretech but they surely force OGN/MBC to agree/disagree to certain things
On September 01 2010 03:29 Gregsen wrote: well now that this is in the sc2 forums, there is no need to discuss further. People are just gonna storm this, ignoring all the arguments that have been given.
On September 01 2010 03:33 alffla wrote: wait why the hell is this in the SC2 forum jesus christ
Not the TL you and I have known I guess
You can't fault TL for trying to maneuver into a bigger spotlight with the release of SC2. They are making quite an effort to get players from their team to the forefront of the sc2 scene.
On September 01 2010 03:33 alffla wrote: wait why the hell is this in the SC2 forum jesus christ
Not the TL you and I have known I guess
You can't fault TL for trying to maneuver into a bigger spotlight with the release of SC2. They are making quite an effort to get players from their team to the forefront of the sc2 scene.
This topic mainly affects BW though, not SC2. Suspicion being that the thread got moved into SC2 forums to give the discussion an entirely different, SC2 favored direction. Would you disagree?
TBH BW starts to get old and I rather play the game of the future than to be stucked at the BW level. I would prefer all pros to switch over to SC2 or just get back to what they did before BW. If BW can die I think it will just promote the next big game (talking of SC2) and since SC2 will get more focus it will give us more time to think about everything (balance and the such)... and the level of the game will get to the next level.
That being said... I hope I don't get killed for saying such things
On September 01 2010 03:33 alffla wrote: wait why the hell is this in the SC2 forum jesus christ
Not the TL you and I have known I guess
You can't fault TL for trying to maneuver into a bigger spotlight with the release of SC2. They are making quite an effort to get players from their team to the forefront of the sc2 scene.
yea but this isn't even really that related to sc2.. its more of a brood war news..
On September 01 2010 03:39 Konsume wrote: Hell, I'm happy... am I the only one?
TBH BW starts to get old and I rather play the game of the future than to be stucked at the BW level. I would prefer all pros to switch over to SC2 or just get back to what they did before BW. If BW can die I think it will just promote the next big game (talking of SC2) and since SC2 will get more focus it will give us more time to think about everything (balance and the such)... and the level of the game will get to the next level.
That being said... I hope I don't get killed for saying such things
don't be mean, there's still a lot of people that love BW and would not want to see it go. why not let both scenes develop side by side. there's already a shit ton of people playing and following sc2 already, probably way more than anything BW ever got.
Is no one excited by the prospect of a e-sports reset if SC2 were to catch? People keep going on about ZOMG GAMEPLAY DEVELOPED OVER 12 YEARS. I for one am sick of seeing a BW Terran opening, seeing a Protoss scout it, react with the appropriate 12 year old build order and knowing full well that the game would come down to a micro battle (which is impressive, but again, stale). I remember seeing NonY mass Phoenixes for the first time and being so ****ing confused as to what he was doing. And then seeing him STOMP zerg players. I am so excited for game development.
I hope mbc and kespa keep doing what they do, get into legal battle with blizz/gretech, win legal battle, and i hope laws are passed that clearly empower esports organizations like kespa, and do not empower software devs like blizz who only care about esports where it will line their pockets.
I also hope in the wake of all of this it does massive PR damage to blizzard in korea and we get software devs out there that design games from the ground up specifically for esports play.
Blizzard could've enforced copyrights a long time ago but they let the fans use their product as they want. Now it effects the sales of their new game so ofc they are going to ask for some contracts. Some of you guys act like they just "didn't care" or "forgot" they couldve used copyrights a decade ago and tried to squeeze some money out of their game. I highly doubt this. What they are doing now is all related to the sales of SC2, and its their intellectual property they have the right to do whatever they want. How about they negiotiate with blizzard instead of blowing them off like they created SC?
And before anyone says anything about being a blizzard fanboy, I feel the same about any other company. You should own the rights to the shit you create and if you create something that relies off another product that you don't own you should get into a mutual contract.
its quiet simple. there are 12 pages of angry old bw-farts complaining and shouting about how good things used to be and how everything in the present sucks (incl. myself). thats the way it is, every single time something new comes around. but no one really cares.
KeSPA should have approached Blizzard in the early 2000s and gotten a permanent license for BW. It boggles my mind how an organization can operate for years without making sure they have solid legal ground. They're lucky to not get sued for royalties retroactively for the length of their whole existence.
I think the main reason all of us seem to still find watching BW more entertaining than SC2 is the player-base. There are plenty of pros in SC2, but not pros on the same caliber as those the likes of Stork, Jaedong, Flash, Free and so on (or I should say a good 95% of current SC2 pros are not on this level). Now that isn't to say that specific players like the ones I mentioned MUST enter SC2 for it to become entertaining. Despite how much I hate to see BW go the way it seems like its going to go, at the same time for SC2 to ever reach the skill level we saw in BW (or anywhere close to it) we need the same quality of players playing the game. I can't wait to see the GSL VODs / Replays because of all the non-EU/NA players (which for the most part is all the SC2 pro scene has been so far)
On September 01 2010 03:42 Durn wrote: Is no one excited by the prospect of a e-sports reset if SC2 were to catch? People keep going on about ZOMG GAMEPLAY DEVELOPED OVER 12 YEARS. I for one am sick of seeing a BW Terran opening, seeing a Protoss scout it, react with the appropriate 12 year old build order and knowing full well that the game would come down to a micro battle (which is impressive, but again, stale). I remember seeing NonY mass Phoenixes for the first time and being so ****ing confused as to what he was doing. And then seeing him STOMP zerg players. I am so excited for game development.
this exciting freewheeling time only lasts until people figure out the optimal builds (MMM). This will go faster than it did with BW, because people are better at it and have their experience from previous RTSs to apply to it.
With BW, we still aren't at that point after 12 years. New things keep happening. Not with the same speed as they used to, but it hasn't become stale after a decade and I wouldn't want to toss that out for a couple months of WTF builds in SC2 before it settles down.
EDIT yeah maybe SC2 will remain dynamic for just as long. There is no way to know that right now though and I would bet against it (BW was a ridiculous accident). But to repeat: no way to know ahead of time. So i am not excited about tossing out a proven commodity like BW for something that might have something approaching the same staying power. That would be very short sighted
On September 01 2010 03:44 Teddyman wrote: KeSPA should have approached Blizzard in the early 2000s and gotten a permanent license for BW. It boggles my mind how an organization can operate for years without making sure they have solid legal ground. They're lucky to not get sued for royalties retroactively for the length of their whole existence.
I must admit this would've been the safest thing to do. However, as I said before, property right laws work differently in Korea than they do in Europe or in the US. Chances are high for kespa if this comes to court.
On September 01 2010 03:42 WECKL wrote: its quiet simple. there are 12 pages of angry old bw-farts complaining and shouting about how good things used to be and how everything in the present sucks (incl. myself). thats the way it is, every single time something new comes around. but no one really cares.
a lot>few. ^_^
I like it when newbies with 2 posts talk about old bw-farts. Don't you have anything useful to say?
And KeSPA promote BW solely because they wuv it so much right? If there is sufficient demand for a BW scene it will continue regardless, via Blizzard, KeSPA, GOM, whoever, the criminal masterminds that are activision blizzard would realize if killing it off would be detrimental to them right? People here seem scared of change more than anything else, I would expect there to be more confidence in the game itself.
On September 01 2010 03:30 Skillz_Man wrote: I'm expecting some death threats towards the Blizz and Activision staff :/... And with all honesty, stopping a huge corporation is pretty much impossible. TL Terrorist group would probably be the most effective way to stop Blizzard killing the BW scene.
After all, some things are just worth fighting for.
yeah but Kespa is also a huge corporation mah friend
On September 01 2010 03:42 WECKL wrote: its quiet simple. there are 12 pages of angry old bw-farts complaining and shouting about how good things used to be and how everything in the present sucks (incl. myself). thats the way it is, every single time something new comes around. but no one really cares.
a lot>few. ^_^
I like it when newbies with 2 posts talk about old bw-farts. Don't you have anything useful to say?
Why are you even care? They will never understand "how good things used to be and how everything in the present sucks". The other thing. KESPA were scumbags, we all know that. Blizzard WAS a great company. We also know that. But we know the one, who will lose the most are not only KESPA, but the true BW fans as well. And Activition Lulzzard knows that well. They target not the KESPA itself, but the BW fanbase that must die to let SC2 rise to power. Noone really care about KESPA, noone really care about legal issues. They care only about those BW leagues that slows down SC2 popularity to flood the Korea.
They dont fucking care that without Koreans and there leagues, and progamers SC:BW would have been forbiden long ago with all old RTS like Total Anihilation, Red Alert 2 or KKND2.
until sc2 gets out of this 1base-for-ages rut (if it ever will since nothing elses is safe apparently) then comparing sc2 to bw as a spectator sport is like comparing sex with a supermodel to getting a handjob from an obese leper.
Koreans are NOT in favor of Kespa in a slightest sense. Most Koreans including myself are with Blizzard and we want this thing sorted out with Blizzard at the helm, not Kespa.
Kespa is essentially holding those players as hostage and god knows how they've been spending the money they robbed off of OGN and MBCgames.
Just looking at any random star league thread on any of the forums in Korea, such as fomos, ruliweb, playxp, and DCinside, all the posts are directed at Kespa and how angry and frustrated people are with Kespa. They are truly the cancer of this current problem.
Kespa is in no way possess a shred of concern for SC1 pro scene. They're just acting like a bitch after losing their milk cow. That's all.
I'm willing to give Flash all the money on my account (50$) if he switches to sc2.
Let's face it, I love BW, but it's already 12 years old. This is the greatest RTS, but it's 12 years old. How many competitive games can claim such a long lifetime? This is quite a big achievement but at the same time the bizness needs to evolve toward present-day entertainment which means sc2 along with it's "social" features, Facebook integration, realID, etc.. Activision Blizzard chose to support esports, and do it through sc2. I don't see an objective reason why we should blame them. Living in the past is never a good decision on the long term.
Pushing esports to mainstream requires sacrifices, although we know who the pioneers are. Anyway the show must go on, Sc2 is stilll young and got so much potential, oh and by the way
On September 01 2010 04:18 gaggar wrote: Koreans are NOT in favor of Kespa in a slightest sense. Most Koreans including myself are with Blizzard and we want this thing sorted out with Blizzard at the helm, not Kespa.
Kespa is essentially holding those players as hostage and god knows how they've been spending the money they robbed off of OGN and MBCgames.
Just looking at any random star league thread on any of the forums in Korea, such as fomos, ruliweb, playxp, and DCinside, all the posts are directed at Kespa and how angry and frustrated people are with Kespa. They are truly the cancer of this current problem.
Kespa is in no way possess a shred of concern for SC1 pro scene. They're just acting like a bitch after losing their milk cow. That's all.
So I only hope you Koreans know what are you doing Just wish you not to make mistake with this, as I really feel that BW is now under direct threat of being wiped out due to letting SC2 take a lead. I really hope I'm wrong with this feeling...I want all the things I said to be a total bullshit.
On September 01 2010 04:18 gaggar wrote: Koreans are NOT in favor of Kespa in a slightest sense. Most Koreans including myself are with Blizzard and we want this thing sorted out with Blizzard at the helm, not Kespa.
Kespa is essentially holding those players as hostage and god knows how they've been spending the money they robbed off of OGN and MBCgames.
Just looking at any random star league thread on any of the forums in Korea, such as fomos, ruliweb, playxp, and DCinside, all the posts are directed at Kespa and how angry and frustrated people are with Kespa. They are truly the cancer of this current problem.
Kespa is in no way possess a shred of concern for SC1 pro scene. They're just acting like a bitch after losing their milk cow. That's all.
Don't speak for the majority.... Also blizzard is much more greedy and detrimental to esports, kespa has grown esports in korea.
On September 01 2010 03:42 WECKL wrote: its quiet simple. there are 12 pages of angry old bw-farts complaining and shouting about how good things used to be and how everything in the present sucks (incl. myself). thats the way it is, every single time something new comes around. but no one really cares.
a lot>few. ^_^
I like it when newbies with 2 posts talk about old bw-farts. Don't you have anything useful to say?
On September 01 2010 04:18 gaggar wrote: Koreans are NOT in favor of Kespa in a slightest sense. Most Koreans including myself are with Blizzard and we want this thing sorted out with Blizzard at the helm, not Kespa.
Kespa is essentially holding those players as hostage and god knows how they've been spending the money they robbed off of OGN and MBCgames.
Just looking at any random star league thread on any of the forums in Korea, such as fomos, ruliweb, playxp, and DCinside, all the posts are directed at Kespa and how angry and frustrated people are with Kespa. They are truly the cancer of this current problem.
Kespa is in no way possess a shred of concern for SC1 pro scene. They're just acting like a bitch after losing their milk cow. That's all.
Don't speak for the majority.... Also blizzard is much more greedy and detrimental to esports, kespa has grown esports in korea.
yeah a poll please...with milkis backing you so we know you are not making it up
On September 01 2010 04:47 ichimarugin680 wrote: Jd playing sc2 = dream come true
Unfortunately, I don't think it'd be as great as you think. All the tiny things that all add up to make JD and Flash the best of the best simply aren't there in SC2. I'm sure SC2 hasn't reached its full potential yet, but honestly I think JD and Flash are way above the SC2 skillcap.
On September 01 2010 04:47 ichimarugin680 wrote: Jd playing sc2 = dream come true
Unfortunately, I don't think it'd be as great as you think. All the tiny things that all add up to make JD and Flash the best of the best simply aren't there in BW. I'm sure SC2 hasn't reached its full potential yet, but honestly I think JD and Flash are way above the SC2 skillcap.
And these players are in the process of getting burned out or allready are burnouts. I doubt they will keep up at the top for much longer if they have to learn a new game.
The heroes of sc2 will be young B-teamers that switch over or new faces.
On September 01 2010 03:44 Teddyman wrote: KeSPA should have approached Blizzard in the early 2000s and gotten a permanent license for BW. It boggles my mind how an organization can operate for years without making sure they have solid legal ground. They're lucky to not get sued for royalties retroactively for the length of their whole existence.
Blizzard aren't stupid. They wouldn't have ever given away infinite upside for a dollar. (How do you think they manage to retain so much independence despite being owned by a series of greedy publishers?) If OGN had gone to them for a license and Blizzard demanded a million hojillion dollars, what do you think would've happened? Look how careful they are to demand one-year contracts now. Gom is willing to be their lapdog because they have nothing otherwise, but OGN and MBC already had a good thing going for themselves.
And as has been pointed out, the rights we are talking about aren't well established at all. Even Blizzard's blessing doesn't indemnify you against something like the Kespa/IEG rights fiasco...
Some needs to leak how much Gretech is asking for for the sublicense fee. Like, 10k a league, maybe 100k for proleague (all year)? That seems reasonable to me, and well within the capabilities of the leagues/gaming channels/KeSPA. Might eat into prize pools or force a restructuring of how the money flows but still shouldn't be all that difficult.
Maybe they're offering a discount for offering to host an SC2 league as well?
On September 01 2010 04:47 ichimarugin680 wrote: Jd playing sc2 = dream come true
Unfortunately, I don't think it'd be as great as you think. All the tiny things that all add up to make JD and Flash the best of the best simply aren't there in BW. I'm sure SC2 hasn't reached its full potential yet, but honestly I think JD and Flash are way above the SC2 skillcap.
And these players are in the process of getting burned out or allready are burnouts. I doubt they will keep up at the top for much longer if they have to learn a new game.
The heroes of sc2 will be young B-teamers that switch over or new faces.
I don't know if I should take you seriously or not because what you just said is retarded. Besides, the current heroes of SC2 are the old players from BW. (IntotheRainbow, Idra, Tester)
On September 01 2010 03:44 Teddyman wrote: KeSPA should have approached Blizzard in the early 2000s and gotten a permanent license for BW. It boggles my mind how an organization can operate for years without making sure they have solid legal ground. They're lucky to not get sued for royalties retroactively for the length of their whole existence.
Blizzard aren't stupid. They wouldn't have ever given away infinite upside for a dollar. (How do you think they manage to retain so much independence despite being owned by a series of greedy publishers?) If OGN had gone to them for a license and Blizzard demanded a million hojillion dollars, what do you think would've happened? Look how careful they are to demand one-year contracts now. Gom is willing to be their lapdog because they have nothing otherwise, but OGN and MBC already had a good thing going for themselves.
And as has been pointed out, the rights we are talking about aren't well established at all. Even Blizzard's blessing doesn't indemnify you against something like the Kespa/IEG rights fiasco...
So the logic is "we really need a license for this, but it might cost a lot, so let's just run it without one"? If it's not clear whether they need a license, then why did OGN already get one?
On September 01 2010 04:47 ichimarugin680 wrote: Jd playing sc2 = dream come true
Unfortunately, I don't think it'd be as great as you think. All the tiny things that all add up to make JD and Flash the best of the best simply aren't there in BW. I'm sure SC2 hasn't reached its full potential yet, but honestly I think JD and Flash are way above the SC2 skillcap.
And these players are in the process of getting burned out or allready are burnouts. I doubt they will keep up at the top for much longer if they have to learn a new game.
The heroes of sc2 will be young B-teamers that switch over or new faces.
I don't know if I should take you seriously or not because what you just said is retarded. Besides, the current heroes of SC2 are the old heroes of BW. (IntotheRainbow, Idra, Tester)
Haha, I love this. Tester, the old hero of BW. Oh man...
Edit: I didn't mean this to sound unfair to Tester But you know who else is an old hero of BW? ZERGBONG.
On September 01 2010 04:25 AlBundy wrote: I'm willing to give Flash all the money on my account (50$) if he switches to sc2.
Let's face it, I love BW, but it's already 12 years old. This is the greatest RTS, but it's 12 years old. How many competitive games can claim such a long lifetime? This is quite a big achievement but at the same time the bizness needs to evolve toward present-day entertainment which means sc2 along with it's "social" features, Facebook integration, realID, etc.. Activision Blizzard chose to support esports, and do it through sc2. I don't see an objective reason why we should blame them. Living in the past is never a good decision on the long term.
Pushing esports to mainstream requires sacrifices, although we know who the pioneers are. Anyway the show must go on, Sc2 is stilll young and got so much potential, oh and by the way
I was waiting for the "Nah, just kidding. BW forever"-line, but it never came. It's a 12 year old game, and that's just fine by me. People still play Super Street Fighter II and Street Fighter 3 - Third strike. Both games are 10+ years old and kick newer SF games in the ass. SF4 can't hold a candle to Third Strike, proving that newer is not always better.
As for SC2, it's there. I only care about it slightly because of it's relationship to BW, I don't care much about Blizzard and their plans. I'm sure they'll turn EA and become the next anti-christ.
Sad to see negotiations going sour. MSL is an awesome tournament and it would be really sad to see it go. Hopefully we can have at least one more.
If BW ends I suspect a lot of the elder generation who already made it semi-far will not switch to SC2 as players. JD was seriously considering retiring last year after the free agent debacle, even though he was the #1 player at the time (and still is at least #2 player after a successful year of 1 gold, 2 silvers). Maybe Flash would switch over, but the majority of SC2 players would be those young b-teamers who never got a good shot at Proleague but still have the mechanics and drive to play SC2. Even a unaccomplished but skillful sea.Really said he was going to retire once BW ended.
I don't know about Koreans, but I like watching BW because I know the players faces, their histories, and their styles. Not only that, it's a tradition that's been built from legendary players like Boxer, with team legacies and rivalries. I have no attachment to watching a GSL with a bunch of players who weren't skilled enough to play proleague BW. Well, except that Tasteless is casting.
Just thinking about Flash's brilliant mm control, macro, and timings being used on marauders makes me sad. It will be like watching Michael Jordan playing baseball.
On September 01 2010 04:47 ichimarugin680 wrote: Jd playing sc2 = dream come true
Unfortunately, I don't think it'd be as great as you think. All the tiny things that all add up to make JD and Flash the best of the best simply aren't there in BW. I'm sure SC2 hasn't reached its full potential yet, but honestly I think JD and Flash are way above the SC2 skillcap.
And these players are in the process of getting burned out or allready are burnouts. I doubt they will keep up at the top for much longer if they have to learn a new game.
The heroes of sc2 will be young B-teamers that switch over or new faces.
I don't know if I should take you seriously or not because what you just said is retarded. Besides, the current heroes of SC2 are the old heroes of BW. (IntotheRainbow, Idra, Tester)
Haha, I love this. Tester, the old hero of BW. Oh man...
Edit: I didn't mean this to sound unfair to Tester But you know who else is an old hero of BW? ZERGBONG.
On August 31 2010 20:30 Funnytoss wrote: From a profit perspective, this makes total sense. Blizzard absolutely wants to get Korea to give up on BW now that SC2 is out, and from their perspective, they don't make any money if Flash or Jaedong keep on playing BW. They have MUCH to gain if these kinds of S-class players switch to SC2, if only out of necessity.
This isn't about Flash or any players. This is just that from a pure fiscal perspective, Blizzard has nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Threaten to kill off BW if your demands aren't met (more or less).
A) KeSPA/OGN/MBCGame cave and pay up == $$$ + the korean esports scene in your pocket. B) KeSPA/OGN/MBCGame refuse to pay, BW dies == more room (and less competition) for a SC2 esport scene in Korea (though with a very bad taste left in the mouths of ex-BW fans).
Essentially, even if it didn't help SC2 at all, it still doesn't cost Blizz anything atm if the BW scene dies now since they have nothing at stake and don't give 2 shits about the remaining BW fans. From what it seemed (at least according to the public statements made from both sides), it wasn't even really the financial requirements that were the main problem (though MBC did say they were 'higher than expected' and unreasonable, but KeSPA and OGN didn't have an issue). It was about Blizzard wanting a lot of power over KeSPA.
I disagree, if B happens, thats alot of bad poblicity, Im not a huge BW fan and I will stop buying their shit. (doenst help that sc2 was a big fail for me)
I was only talking about the short-term fiscal perspective (not the long-term fanbase for future games). From my other post on page 3:
On August 31 2010 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: As others have pointed out, Blizzard hold all the Aces in this situation. If MBC don't want to play the game then things look very bleak.
They do for the short term definitely, its unknown if this matter will be beneficial to them in the long run if worse comes to worst. If BW dies, it potentially bodes well for SC2 (as stated earlier), though it depends on how netizens take the news and how much blame blame Blizzard takes for the whole debacle. I expect that the fall of KeSPA and death of BW by a foreign entity won't bode well with national pride and a decade of devotion to esports. Its largly because of the Korean esports scene that BW ever got that big (competitively), and in return the fact that SC2 is as popular as it is today.
I don't think any pro gamers are not for SC2 by any some of choice, its the fact that KESPA is trying to force SC2 to fail so they can maintain their power hold on the BW scene.. There is so much blizzard hate here it's hilarious.. Though this issue has been going on for years beyond SC2, because KESPA owes blizzard royalties for their intellectual property abuse. I can't see how all you people can simply say oh "blizzard is evil screw you, boycott blizzard" When kespa is equally if not more of a greedy company.
Whats going on is a power struggle between 2 companies nothing more or less, Blizzard wants SC2 to take off in Korea, why wouldn't they its a new product they put effort money and time into.. Kespa will lose their totalitarian control over the SC progame scene if this happens.
I'd say that saying SC2 is rejected by Korea is simply an opinion, since kespa has done everything in their power to prevent SC2 from taking fruition not the korean pro gamers, since we clearly saw Nada playing SC2 but kespa put a stop to that via a phone call
FUCKING activision BLIZZard they are doing their damnest to ruin my favorite game. WHYYY i am already boycotting sc2 for other reasons.. but now i must boycott d3 if they fuck up my favorite e-sports scene. FUCK THEM!
On September 01 2010 06:22 Garaman wrote: FUCKING activision BLIZZard they are doing their damnest to ruin my favorite game. WHYYY i am already boycotting sc2 for other reasons.. but now i must boycott d3 if they fuck up my favorite e-sports scene. FUCK THEM!
On September 01 2010 05:43 Trap wrote: If BW ends I suspect a lot of the elder generation who already made it semi-far will not switch to SC2 as players. JD was seriously considering retiring last year after the free agent debacle, even though he was the #1 player at the time (and still is at least #2 player after a successful year of 1 gold, 2 silvers). Maybe Flash would switch over, but the majority of SC2 players would be those young b-teamers who never got a good shot at Proleague but still have the mechanics and drive to play SC2. Even a unaccomplished but skillful sea.Really said he was going to retire once BW ended.
I don't know about Koreans, but I like watching BW because I know the players faces, their histories, and their styles. Not only that, it's a tradition that's been built from legendary players like Boxer, with team legacies and rivalries. I have no attachment to watching a GSL with a bunch of players who weren't skilled enough to play proleague BW. Well, except that Tasteless is casting.
Just thinking about Flash's brilliant mm control, macro, and timings being used on marauders makes me sad. It will be like watching Michael Jordan playing baseball.
i love your elegantly worded post. it says everything i think of the beauty of sc : bw
On September 01 2010 05:59 amazingoopah wrote: Well, if this is the death of the BW MSL at least the title history represents the legacy of BW: From BoxeR to Flash
On September 01 2010 05:59 amazingoopah wrote: Well, if this is the death of the BW MSL at least the title history represents the legacy of BW: From BoxeR to Flash
Not only that, but the first KPGA tour (original name for MSL) finals was BoxeR vs YellOw, and the last MSL finals was Flash vs Jaedong.
I just hope MBC/OGN & KeSPA don't give a fuck about it and just keep broadcasting until Blizzard takes the whole thing to court. And hopefully then, Blizzard will lose. Greedy Motherfuckers...
This news kind of ruined my day. At least one of my two favorite players is making it to what could be the last OSL finals. Gogo Jaedong and Stork, this might be the last chance you get...
Activision/Blizzard is a publicly traded company. As such they have an obligation to their stockholders to try to generate profit. Clearly the stance they are taking is going to generate the most profit for their stockholders. I can't blame them.
I'm interested to see exactly what will go down if KESPA doesn't settle with them.
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
WTF? You make no sense. Progamers aren't imprisoned and stuck to proteams, they can quit and play SC2 if they want, as some of them have. BW doesn't need to fade away for them to have the choice. Progamers in teams right now get a salary from their team/sponsor as well as the chance to win individual league prizes.
If BW was "laid to rest" that disappears. Most progamers will no longer receive a salary and the ones that do won't receive anything close to what they would have under the current system.
Right now the majority of SC2 players and competitors receive no salary, and the rare players who are sponsored don't get paid nearly as much as BW pros do. And with Gretech focusing the (Korean) scene on individual matches, it's highly likely that team sponsorship will not reach the level that it has in BW as there's no team league like the latter has. If someone can get a team league running outside of Korea I will be pleasantly surprised.
Another reason why OGN might agree to relatively poor terms while MBC might not is that OGN and Gretech share the same parent company...so what's taken away by one hand is given back by the other. MBC on the other hand...
On September 01 2010 06:44 SultanVinegar wrote: Activision/Blizzard is a publicly traded company. As such they have an obligation to their stockholders to try to generate profit. Clearly the stance they are taking is going to generate the most profit for their stockholders. I can't blame them.
I'm interested to see exactly what will go down if KESPA doesn't settle with them.
This is ver-the-fuck-batim the kind of attitude that leads to this shit in the first place. I'm so tired of seeing this apathetic "Well they DO need money, they ARE a company after all" crap. I like that you're interested to see what's going to happen when a non profit company that was going along fine for over 10 years before suddenly needing to compensate a company who decided that it was time to enact Intellectual property rights gets completely shafted.
You think with WoW alone, they don't have enough money to easily compensate and keep a very lucrative industry going? Kotick knows exactly what he's doing and has stated several times his intentions. This isn't anything more than corporate showboating and muscle flexing. It's so sad to watch as an American, a BW player and someone who actually looked forward to SC 2 before I saw what it turned into.
You can blame them all day. Just because they're maximizing profits and doing the shareholder first and foremost policy doesn't even necessarily make them a good company. It makes them a very good short term monetary juggernaut. Long term is completely up in the air, because quite frankly there are so many "what ifs" at stake in this that no one can say for certain what's going to happen when this all hit the fan.
. . .. . Well it looks like the negotiations had good intentions but were completely dishonest on both sides. The grace period and negotiations ending right after it can be seen as mbc not caring abt gretech and only pretending to neg. So it could finish its leagues hasslefree. Similarily gretch blizz know they have all the chips so they werent expecting to get dumped at the last minute. Now theyre pretty burned.
Perhaps they didnt drink enough
Anyways i hope u kespa fanboys rot. How anyone can be convinced they are for the good of esports when they destoyed the last gom starleague cos gom wouldnt be tied by the same chains and submit to kespa over blizz. The irony that now goms in a position to dominate kespa by burning down their house of esports and everything with it.
The whole idea of kespa blocking the intel classic is even more stupid considering gom has sponsored kespa sanctioned leagues before. this shows they have no interest in the growth of esports that doesnt have them as the master.
frankly mbc would do well to stay at the table. Its not like kespa has anything to give them.
On September 01 2010 06:42 Mooncat wrote: I just hope MBC/OGN & KeSPA don't give a fuck about it and just keep broadcasting until Blizzard takes the whole thing to court. And hopefully then, Blizzard will lose. Greedy Motherfuckers...
OGN and Blizz/Gretech have already come to a reasonable agreement so GSL and OSL will be maintained.. Blizzard doesn't want BW to die, they want GSL to move ahead and KESPA is trying to kill any chance of SC2.. If OGN and Gretech could figure something out its pretty clear who's trying to screw who.. MBC/KESPA went ahead and broadcast without any right to without trying to work things out with either company.. While OGN worked things out and OSL is going on right now..
It's very clear that KESPA is being the close minded tyrannical force we all know, where mistyping or PP isn't good enough..
On September 01 2010 06:42 Mooncat wrote: I just hope MBC/OGN & KeSPA don't give a fuck about it and just keep broadcasting until Blizzard takes the whole thing to court. And hopefully then, Blizzard will lose. Greedy Motherfuckers...
OGN and Blizz/Gretech have already come to a reasonable agreement so GSL and OSL will be maintained.. Blizzard doesn't want BW to die, they want GSL to move ahead and KESPA is trying to kill any chance of SC2.. If OGN and Gretech could figure something out its pretty clear who's trying to screw who.. MBC/KESPA went ahead and broadcast without any right to without trying to work things out with either company.. While OGN worked things out and OSL is going on right now..
It's very clear that KESPA is being the close minded tyrannical force we all know, where mistyping or PP isn't good enough..
How is that very clear at all? KeSPA would happily broadcast SC2 if the situation remained the same as BW for the past 7 years. But it's not, and that's solely because of Blizzard. There would probably already be plans for official KeSPA SC2 proleague/starleagues with real sponsors if Blizzard had just let the scene naturally evolve and run its course.
On August 31 2010 21:22 stanley_ wrote: sigh i guess i won't be buying sc2 anytime soon. RAGE
You havn't bought it already? lmao
me neither. Why the should I? Storyline is a joke. And just look how Activision fucked up battlenet 0.2. Have fun with a game that you haven't bought but playing for rent according to the license agreement.
story line is a joke and u havn't bought the game? out of curiosity since BW's story line is so wonderful have you played any game besides bw in the past 11 years? do you live in a cave? SC2 had a really really good storyline imo. but haters gonna hate..
slow down there cowboy, I haven't bought SC2 (never happen unless I'm the last person on the planet who wants to play BW, i.e. never happen) And I have personally experienced (us poor people have our ways) that the campaign is trash. Someone said somewhere that the Overmind's opening speech in the first Z campaign is better than, well everything in SC2 and I agree. No mayhap and no Fenix being able to throw down with the best of 'em or Kerrigan's last speech as human or whatever, just + Show Spoiler +
some things are worth fighting for and time to kick this revolution into overdrive and the hero walking with his girl in his hands over the smoking battlefield into a sunset ending
horribad. There is more to this than "haters gonna hate".
Back on topic: while the NDA means no hard facts are forthcoming and nothing is clear I personally pledge my (inconsequential) support to Kespa because fundamentally it depends on esports for its survival and it is meaningless without it, which means it will work to provide esport goodness (even in ways many may not like) despite anything and everything, it is its raison d'être. They are quite successful in their mission too. While, even though Blizz could care they don't really have to. And from the looks of things they don't, to me it seems the second they decide this cow is not worth milking they will throw everything out the window and go make another WoW expansion.
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that.
You do realise that most progamers look down on SC2 with disdain, right?
Brood war's gameplay and depth has developed for 12 years. Starcraft 2's gameplay and depth has developed for about a half year.
Bw pro gamers consider sc2 to be easy, bw to be difficult.
Should we never give sc2 a chance? Should we never give another game a chance even if we find it funny because bw is the most difficult?
The difficulty of the game is completely irrelevant at this time, come back to in 11,5 years and then we can discuss it.
The potential is all we should look at. there are major leagues coming up and the game is getting big.
So what you're suggesting is that we shouldn't care about proteams getting disbanded and leagues forced to come to an end, and rather look how we can put bw out of the way as soon as possible to have a free road for sc2?
Not at all. I'm speaking of how we shouldn't disagree with the growth of sc2 just because of bw being more difficult. I don't want any of the scenes to disband
How is that very clear at all? KeSPA would happily broadcast SC2 if the situation remained the same as BW for the past 7 years. But it's not, and that's solely because of Blizzard. There would probably already be plans for official KeSPA SC2 proleague/starleagues with real sponsors if Blizzard had just let the scene naturally evolve and run its course.
It's the same as when the GOM league first began and KESPA did a boycott/blackout of their events and basically made them fold.. KESPA is forbidding any progamer with a KESPA license from playing SC2.
Why do you think IdrA and a few of the ex proleaguers are all staying clear away from KESPA and speak of their huge distaste? KESPA wants to be the dominate force in progaming in Korea, they have no control over SC2 thus they reject it.
I firmly believe kespa coming out on top of this hurts everyone.. Where as Blizz/GOM proleague will continue maybe not under KESPA but thats really not that huge of a deal, BW proleague will exist until money cannot be made from it.. Blizzard never had the intention of killing BW for SC2.. Kespa forced that hand when they formally rejected SC2 making it a BW or SC2 only scene.. So the easiest and simplest sollution is KESPA = Gone life goes on
How is that very clear at all? KeSPA would happily broadcast SC2 if the situation remained the same as BW for the past 7 years. But it's not, and that's solely because of Blizzard. There would probably already be plans for official KeSPA SC2 proleague/starleagues with real sponsors if Blizzard had just let the scene naturally evolve and run its course.
It's the same as when the GOM league first began and KESPA did a boycott/blackout of their events and basically made them fold.. KESPA is forbidding any progamer with a KESPA license from playing SC2.
Why do you think IdrA and a few of the ex proleaguers are all staying clear away from KESPA and speak of their huge distaste? KESPA wants to be the dominate force in progaming in Korea, they have no control over SC2 thus they reject it.
GOM run for 3 seasons (hardly close to 'first began' so get your facts right) with KeSPA players until teams gradually started pulling players out until the point where there was no point even running it, not that there was never any need for another individual league in the first place. At the end of the day the sponsors that make up KeSPA are the ones paying the players salaries, if they would prefer them not to play in other tournaments then they don't need to. I'm pretty sure it would be the same in other sports, the teams thought it was pointless and the players were not even practicing for it as much as they would the other leagues.
Ex-proleague players is another thing you've just made up, who even has said anything of the sort? There is no point IdrA being on CJ simply for the fact it's not an SC2 team and no one else is playing it there, so what would be the point of him continuing his contract with them? He isn't part of the team if he's playing a different game. Sponsors can make their own SC2 teams if they wish, but they are not going to at this point because it does not have the organization and proven track record that KeSPA and its league offers. If Blizzard had just left the eSports alone then this would have not even been a problem in the first place and an SC2 proleague with a proper sponsor could have probably almost immediately started.
Edit: ok you added even more stupid uninformed stuff:
On September 01 2010 08:11 Xunaka wrote:
I firmly believe kespa coming out on top of this hurts everyone.. Where as Blizz/GOM proleague will continue maybe not under KESPA but thats really not that huge of a deal, BW proleague will exist until money cannot be made from it.. Blizzard never had the intention of killing BW for SC2.. Kespa forced that hand when they formally rejected SC2 making it a BW or SC2 only scene.. So the easiest and simplest sollution is KESPA = Gone life goes on
How is it not a huge deal, do you even understand what KeSPA represents? The sponsors of the proteams... with those there is no teams and is no proleague and the hundreds of current gamers get completely screwed other. This is a pointless discussion until you educate yourself correctly on the situation. There's zero benefit to Blizzard getting involved, it just requires more money from sponsors in what is already a very niche interest. It's got more chance of sending SC eSports back to the total beginning than actually improving anything.
So please do not tell me I'm making things up, I'm also not going to sit and argue because it's clear you believe that KESPA is the almighty and great organization of joy and happiness that spreads flowers throughout the world.
And they never perpetuated and banned players from playing in GOM, or SC2.. Or had any impact on the IEM showmatch between TLO and Nada which abruptly ended after KESPA involvement. There have never been disqualifications for a mistype into chat..
Sponsors go where the money is, its pretty clear that Korean Air is willing to work with blizzard since they have planes wrapped in SC2 logos. So all KESPA represents, is greed the same thing you're hating blizzard for.. Except blizzard in the end owns all rights to their product. GOM and gretech being in charge can only lead to good things, if OGN already signed on.. Clearly they aren't thinking it's the doom of their times.
On September 01 2010 08:11 Xunaka wrote: It's the same as when the GOM league first began and KESPA did a boycott/blackout of their events and basically made them fold.. KESPA is forbidding any progamer with a KESPA license from playing SC2.
Well, the progamers all signed contracts. They could've just resigned and played in GOM instead, without a montly salary. Makes sense? No not really. Hence why they didn't, and thus GOM wasn't too interesting.
On September 01 2010 08:11 Xunaka wrote: Why do you think IdrA and a few of the ex proleaguers are all staying clear away from KESPA and speak of their huge distaste? KESPA wants to be the dominate force in progaming in Korea, they have no control over SC2 thus they reject it.
First and foremost, IdrA is a joke. Anyone quoting IdrA is looked down upon by me. KeSPA has no interest in SC2, the marketing value in Korea is close to 0, and their players would rather stick to Brood War.
On September 01 2010 08:11 Xunaka wrote: I firmly believe kespa coming out on top of this hurts everyone.. Where as Blizz/GOM proleague will continue maybe not under KESPA but thats really not that huge of a deal, BW proleague will exist until money cannot be made from it.. Blizzard never had the intention of killing BW for SC2.. Kespa forced that hand when they formally rejected SC2 making it a BW or SC2 only scene.. So the easiest and simplest sollution is KESPA = Gone life goes on
Except BW/GOM could just run their little shiny GSL without discussing IP rights concerning Brood War. Also, having to renegotiate the broadcasting contract for each season is really retarded, Blizzard can terminate SC:BW whenever they see fit. And if my expectations are right, BW will only be allowed to live for one season, after which they probably won't be interested in continuing.
On September 01 2010 06:44 SultanVinegar wrote: Activision/Blizzard is a publicly traded company. As such they have an obligation to their stockholders to try to generate profit. Clearly the stance they are taking is going to generate the most profit for their stockholders. I can't blame them.
I'm interested to see exactly what will go down if KESPA doesn't settle with them.
This is ver-the-fuck-batim the kind of attitude that leads to this shit in the first place. I'm so tired of seeing this apathetic "Well they DO need money, they ARE a company after all" crap. I like that you're interested to see what's going to happen when a non profit company that was going along fine for over 10 years before suddenly needing to compensate a company who decided that it was time to enact Intellectual property rights gets completely shafted.
You think with WoW alone, they don't have enough money to easily compensate and keep a very lucrative industry going? Kotick knows exactly what he's doing and has stated several times his intentions. This isn't anything more than corporate showboating and muscle flexing. It's so sad to watch as an American, a BW player and someone who actually looked forward to SC 2 before I saw what it turned into.
You can blame them all day. Just because they're maximizing profits and doing the shareholder first and foremost policy doesn't even necessarily make them a good company. It makes them a very good short term monetary juggernaut. Long term is completely up in the air, because quite frankly there are so many "what ifs" at stake in this that no one can say for certain what's going to happen when this all hit the fan.
On September 01 2010 08:26 Xunaka wrote: "- Have you decided a new team to join? ▲ I want to join a team not associated with KeSPA. I don't have a specific team yet. "
IdrA never even played in proleague and that is just one persons comment when you implied there was actually multiple.
On September 01 2010 08:28 SultanVinegar wrote:
Kespa is non-profit? That's news to me.
If you think its not, where does the profit come from? I'm really interested in where people get this idea eSports is magically making tons of money from somewhere.
First and foremost, IdrA is a joke. Anyone quoting IdrA is looked down upon by me. KeSPA has no interest in SC2, the marketing value in Korea is close to 0, and their players would rather stick to Brood War.
I'm curious where these figures come from, or where people generate this blanket statement.. They aren't even given the choice or option. There are a lot of EX progamers playing SC2 right now, Sure you can hate on IdrA but he still was on CJ even if B team and still was in the scene and probably has a lot more input on the subject.. But players like Tester, JulyZerg, Nada, The oGs team.. All of them ex BW players clearly Sc2 has 0 potential.. Korean air having SC2 marketing on their planes.. 0 Potential.. Gretech and OGN signing on .. 0 Potential
Starcraft 2 has been out for a month total time, the game hasn't even had time to evolve into anything, What makes the BW games interesting to watch isnt even the game(some of the time), its the players and the commentary.. because frankly I regret staying up till 9am EST watching a 50min TvT because it is pretty boring... the excitement is from the fans/players and commentators.. Its the atmosphere built around the game.. all of this can be done without KESPA and in another game..
How is that very clear at all? KeSPA would happily broadcast SC2 if the situation remained the same as BW for the past 7 years. But it's not, and that's solely because of Blizzard. There would probably already be plans for official KeSPA SC2 proleague/starleagues with real sponsors if Blizzard had just let the scene naturally evolve and run its course.
It's the same as when the GOM league first began and KESPA did a boycott/blackout of their events and basically made them fold.. KESPA is forbidding any progamer with a KESPA license from playing SC2.
Why do you think IdrA and a few of the ex proleaguers are all staying clear away from KESPA and speak of their huge distaste? KESPA wants to be the dominate force in progaming in Korea, they have no control over SC2 thus they reject it.
KeSPA didn't shun GOM when the league 'first began'. The GOMTV Intel Classic ran for 2 seasons just fine (as did 4 seasons of GOM MSL before that). It was when Blizzard was trying to stick their foot in (during season 3, in 2009) that KeSPA pulled out of support for GOM.
KeSPA is staying away from SC2 now because they have no rights to it, so its not fair to say they are shunning it when Blizzard is equally shunning them.
This also stands for any player switching to SC2, which atm means they are forced to leave KeSPA teams (because KeSPA teams are BW teams). IdrA leaving CJ is only logical being a SC2 player, CJ has no use for him as a practice partner, and he has no use for them as practice partners. As it stands right now, CJ has no need of SC2 players (nor can they officially endorse that title as of now).
I dunno if you are just deliberately being stupid or not. You realize Blizzard pays to get SC2 marketing put everywhere right? They don't just do it for fun, it's not an indicator of any potential its just an example of a huge marketing budget. And it's a pretty funny example considering. Blizzard is paying money to put SC2 on planes while Korean Air is paying to sponsor the OSL. it's pretty ridiculous that people would want to throw away the progress made, the fact we have an airline sponsoring a tournament and some people actually think its a good idea to get rid of the organization that makes this possible.
First and foremost, IdrA is a joke. Anyone quoting IdrA is looked down upon by me. KeSPA has no interest in SC2, the marketing value in Korea is close to 0, and their players would rather stick to Brood War.
I'm curious where these figures come from, or where people generate this blanket statement.. They aren't even given the choice or option. There are a lot of EX progamers playing SC2 right now, Sure you can hate on IdrA but he still was on CJ even if B team and still was in the scene and probably has a lot more input on the subject.. But players like Tester, JulyZerg, Nada, The oGs team.. All of them ex BW players clearly Sc2 has 0 potential.. Korean air having SC2 marketing on their planes.. 0 Potential.. Gretech and OGN signing on .. 0 Potential
Starcraft 2 has been out for a month total time, the game hasn't even had time to evolve into anything, What makes the BW games interesting to watch isnt even the game(some of the time), its the players and the commentary.. because frankly I regret staying up till 9am EST watching a 50min TvT because it is pretty boring... the excitement is from the fans/players and commentators.. Its the atmosphere built around the game.. all of this can be done without KESPA and in another game..
Do you think players will practice 3 years straight 12 hours a day just to be at Jaedong or Flash level if there is no money involved? Kespa is the sponsors. The money. Until Blizzard starts sponsoring 11 pro-gaming teams with SALARIES that reach up to 150+K a year, Kespa>Blizzard in terms of Esports. What is GSL? 85k for one person? Thats about half of what Bisu makes without winning anything.
Wait, what? Who the fuck is Tester? That protoss with a horrible sub 40% winrate? Is he even alive anymore? Anyway, on to the point of the reply.
Marketing value = 0. Not game potential = 0.
Korean Air are only displaying SC2 logos because they get paid by Blizzard to do so. Gretech is only running GSL because they get paid by Blizzard. OGN was forced into it.
Samsung/SK Telecom/Korea Telecom/Hwaseung on the other hand, aren't getting any payment from Blizzard, they're insisting on throwing out millions of won each year for a televised billboard that probably don't even pay back what they have to spend.
Oh and if you mean the fact that the players "don't have a choice, and are forced to stick with BW", I really don't see why they can't break their contracts, leave their teams, get a full time job and start playing SC2. Maybe it's not as tempting?
I see many people blaming Kespa for the break down of GOM, but everyone has to know it wasn't Kespa who destroyed GOM. What happened was that by season 3, most teams didn't want their players wasting practice time into GOM. That is why half the teams pulled out of the GOM by the 3rd season. Kespa had nothing to do with it.
Overall, I think Blizzard is being the total bitch here. They just came in when they saw a chance of profit with practically no chance of losing any profit. If all goes well, they'll make profit from BW and if it goes bad, then the BW scene will die which does not matter to blizzard in the financial standpoint because it wasn't generating them much money anyways.
On September 01 2010 09:05 MuffinDude wrote: I see many people blaming Kespa for the break down of GOM, but everyone has to know it wasn't Kespa who destroyed GOM. What happened was that by season 3, most teams didn't want their players wasting practice time into GOM. That is why half the teams pulled out of the GOM by the 3rd season. Kespa had nothing to do with it.
Overall, I think Blizzard is being the total bitch here. They just came in when they saw a chance of profit with practically no chance of losing any profit. If all goes well, they'll make profit from BW and if it goes bad, then the BW scene will die which does not matter to blizzard in the financial standpoint because it wasn't generating them much money anyways.
a company who took a risk 10 years ago and spent millions of dollars on a video game that had very little chance to actually become successful wants to get their part of the money that they deserve from a company that paid around $100,000 on camera's and commentators and made just as much?
On September 01 2010 09:05 MuffinDude wrote: I see many people blaming Kespa for the break down of GOM, but everyone has to know it wasn't Kespa who destroyed GOM. What happened was that by season 3, most teams didn't want their players wasting practice time into GOM. That is why half the teams pulled out of the GOM by the 3rd season. Kespa had nothing to do with it.
Overall, I think Blizzard is being the total bitch here. They just came in when they saw a chance of profit with practically no chance of losing any profit. If all goes well, they'll make profit from BW and if it goes bad, then the BW scene will die which does not matter to blizzard in the financial standpoint because it wasn't generating them much money anyways.
a company who took a risk 10 years ago and spent millions of dollars on a video game that had very little chance to actually become successful wants to get their part of the money that they deserve from a company that paid around $100,000 on camera's and commentators and made just as much?
yeah, blizzards being the "bitch" right?
WTF are you saying? Diablo was successful way before SC and WC2 before that. They knew SC was going to be a hit.
On September 01 2010 09:05 MuffinDude wrote: I see many people blaming Kespa for the break down of GOM, but everyone has to know it wasn't Kespa who destroyed GOM. What happened was that by season 3, most teams didn't want their players wasting practice time into GOM. That is why half the teams pulled out of the GOM by the 3rd season. Kespa had nothing to do with it.
Overall, I think Blizzard is being the total bitch here. They just came in when they saw a chance of profit with practically no chance of losing any profit. If all goes well, they'll make profit from BW and if it goes bad, then the BW scene will die which does not matter to blizzard in the financial standpoint because it wasn't generating them much money anyways.
a company who took a risk 10 years ago and spent millions of dollars on a video game that had very little chance to actually become successful wants to get their part of the money that they deserve from a company that paid around $100,000 on camera's and commentators and made just as much?
yeah, blizzards being the "bitch" right?
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about on this issue (I'm not usually one to point out the 'post count' and 'registration date' thing, but if the shoe fits..). $100k? Each team sponsor shells out several times that on player salaries alone per year. Then you have a full time coaching staff, uniforms, computers, housing, food, transportation, etc. Running teams is hugely expensive. It's also because of KeSPA's map makers that SC is succeeding on a competitive level since Blizzard's maps were beyond terrible for any sort of balance (much like the SC2 ladder maps). esports developed due to hard work over a lot of years.
Blizzard never attempted to develop a market anywhere else in the world, instead, they just saw what Korea did and attempted to take it over. If Blizzard really cared about esports succeeding and being a global thing, how come we have yet to see any proleagues or starleagues in the US or Europe? because that takes a lot of time and money, and has huge risks. You have to negotiate with players and find sponsors for teams, you have to find broadcasters who would guarentee standard airtime, you have to find sponsors who would shell out big $$$ for leagues, etc. Any one of those things goes wrong and you're out a huge investment. So rather than try any of that, they just said "fuck it, lets take over Korea's market". If it works, they make money, if it doesn't they don't give a shit about killing off KeSPA's progress.
Then again, I don't know why I'm bothering to explain this if you won't even take a few minutes to educate yourself.
moopie, I'd like to add something to your post, if my scarce postcount isn't rendering my post useless. Blizzard spent millions of dollars on a video game, yes. Blizzard also charged a "standard price" for every sold copy of the game, and thus, they should've made enough money on Starcraft already.
i m really interested in seeing what happens if KeSPA just goes on to run 2010-2011 season without settling with Gretech.
as someone said, worst comes to worst, Gretech can sue and force KeSPA to shut down at which point the teams will also disband. but... its probably going to damage the image of Blizz/Gretech more than it helps them in profit.
imo, Gretech/Blizzard is just too greedy. if all they wanted was recognition of their IP rights, they could had asked for a small fee, say $50k USD per yr. but in reality, we know the amount they wanted was too shocking and Gretech admits that they dont want the figure to be public.
Funny, oldfags rationalizing KeSPA's infringement of Activision Blizzard's rights.
KeSPA wants to continue making money off of Starcraft. Activision Blizzard says they can't without licensing it. KeSPA says fuck off we're Koreans, Starcraft is Korean we invented it (like they did Kumdo, etc.). Activision Blizzard says alright then here is Starcraft 2, that shut you right up biatch? KeSPA is like, we don't need no SC2 because all progamers have sold their souls to us, that is the Korean way of job "security". Then KeSPA loses because the U.S. government threatens to put South Korea on the "piracy priority watchlist" for pirating Starcraft and all MMORPGs ever made.
I'm curious as to why many people think OGN was "forced" into agreeing with Gretech. Is there some official OGN statement saying they had no choice? Was there really NO ONE in OGN who thought it was a good idea for the future of eSports and their broadcasting channel? Or is all that just speculation? (Serious question, maybe I missed a big thread about the issue.)
I'm also curious as to where people get the idea that Sponsors (the team owners) would make any less money from exposure with Gretech and now OGN than they have with KeSPA. Really from a Sponsor point of view, what does it matter who runs things as long as it's run well and your name gets out? Or is it really just for "non-profit" control over Korean eSports?
On September 01 2010 10:00 xBillehx wrote: I'm curious as to why many people think OGN was "forced" into agreeing with Gretech. Is there some official OGN statement saying they had no choice? Was there really NO ONE in OGN who thought it was a good idea for the future of eSports and their broadcasting channel? Or is all that just speculation? (Serious question, maybe I missed a big thread about the issue.)
I'm also curious as to where people get the idea that Sponsors (the team owners) would make any less money from exposure with Gretech and now OGN than they have with KeSPA. Really from a Sponsor point of view, what does it matter who runs things as long as it's run well and your name gets out? Or is it really just for "non-profit" control over Korean eSports?
Well, Korean air which sponsored the last OSL wanted to deal with Blizzard, so OGN dealt with Blizzard. OGN will need to get a new license for the next OSL. If korean air doesn't sponsor it, don't expect OGN to negotiate.
Most people don't know what non-profit means. The difference is, instead of being paid out to shareholders, money left over after expenses must be invested back in the organization. They can still have a board set by the corporate sponsors that mainly protects those interests.
On September 01 2010 10:10 Teddyman wrote: Most people don't know what non-profit means. The difference is, instead of being paid out to shareholders, money left over after expenses must be invested back in the organization. They can still have a board set by the corporate sponsors that mainly protects those interests.
Exactly. Non-profit or not, you can't make money by infringing on someone else's property.
On September 01 2010 10:10 Teddyman wrote: Most people don't know what non-profit means. The difference is, instead of being paid out to shareholders, money left over after expenses must be invested back in the organization. They can still have a board set by the corporate sponsors that mainly protects those interests.
Exactly. Non-profit or not, you can't make money by infringing on someone else's property.
its not quite clear at this moment whether what KeSPA did constitute infringing Blizz's IP. as I said, there was a case in the US courts and the court sided in favor of the competition's organizer over the objection of the game maker.
On September 01 2010 10:00 xBillehx wrote: I'm curious as to why many people think OGN was "forced" into agreeing with Gretech. Is there some official OGN statement saying they had no choice? Was there really NO ONE in OGN who thought it was a good idea for the future of eSports and their broadcasting channel? Or is all that just speculation? (Serious question, maybe I missed a big thread about the issue.)
I'm also curious as to where people get the idea that Sponsors (the team owners) would make any less money from exposure with Gretech and now OGN than they have with KeSPA. Really from a Sponsor point of view, what does it matter who runs things as long as it's run well and your name gets out? Or is it really just for "non-profit" control over Korean eSports?
Kespa has proleague and Gretech doesn't. When you think of individual league winners, you don't think <TEAMNAME> <PLAYER> won, but when you think of proleague, it's the team that won.
The sponsors make up the majority of the KeSPA board members. They obviously care who runs things.
On September 01 2010 10:10 Teddyman wrote: Most people don't know what non-profit means. The difference is, instead of being paid out to shareholders, money left over after expenses must be invested back in the organization. They can still have a board set by the corporate sponsors that mainly protects those interests.
Exactly. Non-profit or not, you can't make money by infringing on someone else's property.
They did it for the past 10 years that Blizzard left them alone for.
On September 01 2010 10:10 Teddyman wrote: Most people don't know what non-profit means. The difference is, instead of being paid out to shareholders, money left over after expenses must be invested back in the organization. They can still have a board set by the corporate sponsors that mainly protects those interests.
Exactly. Non-profit or not, you can't make money by infringing on someone else's property.
its not quite clear at this moment whether what KeSPA did constitute infringing Blizz's IP. as I said, there was a case in the US courts and the court sided in favor of the competition's organizer over the objection of the game maker.
Can you cite this? I did a quick google search and found nothing.
On September 01 2010 10:10 Teddyman wrote: Most people don't know what non-profit means. The difference is, instead of being paid out to shareholders, money left over after expenses must be invested back in the organization. They can still have a board set by the corporate sponsors that mainly protects those interests.
Exactly. Non-profit or not, you can't make money by infringing on someone else's property.
its not quite clear at this moment whether what KeSPA did constitute infringing Blizz's IP. as I said, there was a case in the US courts and the court sided in favor of the competition's organizer over the objection of the game maker.
I'd like to see that case. Probably the competition was not designed as a for-profit venture. Think of it like a raffle : most jurisdictions that have a lottery commission require registration and a fee when organizing for-profit raffles but no fee (or a nominal fee/registration) when said raffle is for non-profit purposes. The same thing may apply to sport/game competitions in many jurisdictions.
KeSPA could be recognized as an independent non-profit organization, but in the U.S. they would likely need more independent board members to conform to federal/state law. Also, while KeSPA may live on account of being non-profit, the progaming teams for which KeSPA exist could not.
the case in question was a board game competition held by the school board. the game maker Allen claim that the competition is a "public performance" which the court disagreed. the court went further to say that even if it WAS public, the games are MEANT to be played, so it is fair use.
On September 01 2010 10:10 Teddyman wrote: Most people don't know what non-profit means. The difference is, instead of being paid out to shareholders, money left over after expenses must be invested back in the organization. They can still have a board set by the corporate sponsors that mainly protects those interests.
Exactly. Non-profit or not, you can't make money by infringing on someone else's property.
They did it for the past 10 years that Blizzard left them alone for.
Yes, and if you abuse your wife for 10 years and she doesn't complain does that mean you get a free pass when she finally decides that enough is enough and drags your sorry ass to court?
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA.
Do you guys know that KESPA did so many ridiculous things and rules ? I already hated KESPA way before sc2 beta was out. Anyone can remember the "gg"'s rule for instance ? That's exactly one of them.
On September 01 2010 10:10 Teddyman wrote: Most people don't know what non-profit means. The difference is, instead of being paid out to shareholders, money left over after expenses must be invested back in the organization. They can still have a board set by the corporate sponsors that mainly protects those interests.
Exactly. Non-profit or not, you can't make money by infringing on someone else's property.
They did it for the past 10 years that Blizzard left them alone for.
Yes, and if you abuse your wife for 10 years and she doesn't complain does that mean you get a free pass when she finally decides that enough is enough and drags your sorry ass to court?
That's a horrible analogy and you know it. BW's success in Korea essentially gave Blizzard tons of free advertising. The Blizzard of old left them alone because they recognized the benefit of a thriving e-sports industry built around their game. They regularly invited the top Korean pros to play at Blizzcon Invitationals. Hell, they made the official SC2 announcement in Korea.
That's 10 years during which Blizzard showed zero interest in protecting their IP rights. If anything, Blizzard was perfectly willing to give their informal support for the Korean e-sports scene up until the point where it started to raise doubts about SC2's future.
On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote: @Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA.
Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one.
Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for "abandonware" types of situations.
what the fuck is up with these sc2 asswipes that are encouraging BW to die? (yeah you findingpride. you can fuck off with your huge condescending douchebag attitude) i don't care if you think kespa is wrong and want them to die and hope for a better organization to manage bw or something, but yeah,
-WE FUCKING GET THAT YOU THINK BW IS BORING. GO PLAY YOUR SC2 THEN NO ONE CARES IF YOU LIKE SC2. -BUT LOTS OF PEOPLE STILL LIKE BW. WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU WANT TO KILL OFF OUR PASSION? -WHY NOT LET BOTH SCENES GO ON AT THE SAME TIME? -OH, because its NOT LETTING YOUR NEW SHINY PRECIOUS GAME SUCCEED? lol give me a fucking break.
Even if the playing of games could constitute a performance, we would have to recognize the applicability of the fair use doctrine under Section 107 of the Copyright Act. This section allows the fair use of a copyrighted work in such instances as for nonprofit educational purposes and where the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the protected work is limited. As indicated above, AGLOA tournaments are held not for profit, but for encouraging education among young students.
I don't think the case is all that similar in the sense of education and limited potential market and taking it to court might be very risky for KeSPA.
On September 01 2010 10:10 Teddyman wrote: Most people don't know what non-profit means. The difference is, instead of being paid out to shareholders, money left over after expenses must be invested back in the organization. They can still have a board set by the corporate sponsors that mainly protects those interests.
Exactly. Non-profit or not, you can't make money by infringing on someone else's property.
They did it for the past 10 years that Blizzard left them alone for.
Yes, and if you abuse your wife for 10 years and she doesn't complain does that mean you get a free pass when she finally decides that enough is enough and drags your sorry ass to court?
That's a horrible analogy and you know it.
It's terrible because it's true. Truth hurts. Get over it.
On September 01 2010 10:10 Teddyman wrote: BW's success in Korea essentially gave Blizzard tons of free advertising. The Blizzard of old left them alone because they recognized the benefit of a thriving e-sports industry built around their game. They regularly invited the top Korean pros to play at Blizzcon Invitationals. Hell, they made the official SC2 announcement in Korea.
That's 10 years during which Blizzard showed zero interest in protecting their IP rights. If anything, Blizzard was perfectly willing to give their informal support for the Korean e-sports scene up until the point where it started to raise doubts about SC2's future.
Are you kidding me? Everything you said shows that Blizzard cared about their IP. Yes, the Korean statu quo profited Blizzard since they didn't have the resources back then to manage the emerging Korean pro-scene. Thus they protected their IP by keeping the statu quo in their favor instead of nipping the pro-scene in the bud. Corporate management 101. Plus, not enforcing your copyright does not make it forfeit, etc. see my previous post.
Returning to my wife beating analogy, if you think your husband will kill you if you go to the police, is it wrong to wait for a secure opportunity instead of taking the chance of getting killed? Cooperating does not mean you agree. It may simply be that you have little choice otherwise or that the unlawful arrangement is temporarily beneficial. But unlawful is still unlawful, see? And since you can't infringe your own copyright, profiting from the infringement of your copyrighted property is not unlawful.
1. This is not a clear violation of IP rights. 2. There are limitations copyright protection. In the past 10 yrs Blizz was fully aware of the situation with KeSPA and willfully neglected to enforce their IP claims. From my understanding, it is much more likely the court will side in favor of KeSPA regarding past matches.
Even if the playing of games could constitute a performance, we would have to recognize the applicability of the fair use doctrine under Section 107 of the Copyright Act. This section allows the fair use of a copyrighted work in such instances as for nonprofit educational purposes and where the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the protected work is limited. As indicated above, AGLOA tournaments are held not for profit, but for encouraging education among young students.
I don't think the case is all that similar in the sense of education and limited potential market and taking it to court might be very risky for KeSPA.
the case also cited that the games were meant to be played. and even if played in public, it falls under fair use.
On September 01 2010 11:51 alffla wrote: what the fuck is up with these sc2 asswipes that are encouraging BW to die? (yeah you findingpride. you can fuck off with your huge condescending douchebag attitude) i don't care if you think kespa is wrong and want them to die and hope for a better organization to manage bw or something, but yeah,
-WE FUCKING GET THAT YOU THINK BW IS BORING. GO PLAY YOUR SC2 THEN NO ONE CARES IF YOU LIKE SC2. -BUT LOTS OF PEOPLE STILL LIKE BW. WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU WANT TO KILL OFF OUR PASSION? -WHY NOT LET BOTH SCENES GO ON AT THE SAME TIME? -OH, because its NOT LETTING YOUR NEW SHINY PRECIOUS GAME SUCCEED? lol give me a fucking break.
Woa never seen you being so enraged alffla :o Ignore those SC2 newbs!
On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote: @Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA.
Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one.
Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for "abandonware" types of situations.
It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about.
On September 01 2010 11:51 alffla wrote: what the fuck is up with these sc2 asswipes that are encouraging BW to die? (yeah you findingpride. you can fuck off with your huge condescending douchebag attitude) i don't care if you think kespa is wrong and want them to die and hope for a better organization to manage bw or something, but yeah,
-WE FUCKING GET THAT YOU THINK BW IS BORING. GO PLAY YOUR SC2 THEN NO ONE CARES IF YOU LIKE SC2. -BUT LOTS OF PEOPLE STILL LIKE BW. WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU WANT TO KILL OFF OUR PASSION? -WHY NOT LET BOTH SCENES GO ON AT THE SAME TIME? -OH, because its NOT LETTING YOUR NEW SHINY PRECIOUS GAME SUCCEED? lol give me a fucking break.
You forgot to mention that....
BW IS THE GREATEST THING TO EXIST IN THE HISTORY OF E-SPORTS!!!!!
but seriously Blizzard(activision) an KeSPA are fucking children and are blowing things way off proportion.
On September 01 2010 11:53 maximuspita wrote: @dybyx + Show Spoiler +
Just wanted to quote this:
Even if the playing of games could constitute a performance, we would have to recognize the applicability of the fair use doctrine under Section 107 of the Copyright Act. This section allows the fair use of a copyrighted work in such instances as for nonprofit educational purposes and where the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the protected work is limited. As indicated above, AGLOA tournaments are held not for profit, but for encouraging education among young students.
I don't think the case is all that similar in the sense of education and limited potential market and taking it to court might be very risky for KeSPA.
the case also cited that the games were meant to be played. and even if played in public, it falls under fair use.
Whether privately in one's home or publicly in a park, it is understood that games are meant to be "played." In this situation, the games are being played by students who come together for the purpose of friendly, academic competition. There is no indication that this nonprofit corporation, AGLOA, and the individual respondents are making the subject games available to the public for a fee. The students, schools, and school districts use their own games, purchased from Allen, in the tournaments, and respondents are merely organizers of this event. Moreover, AGLOA's tournaments are limited to students who participated in regional competitions which also involved the playing of Allen's games.
Things in courts are judge on a case to case basis. You may argue that SC:BW progames are also friendly, academic competition but I still don't believe this is the case with progaming and the huge sponsors and money pots. I hope for a satisfactory solution but unless the whole matter goes to court, all we can do is speculate on the claims of both parties.
On September 01 2010 11:55 dybydx wrote: @Bidouleroux
1. This is not a clear violation of IP rights. 2. There are limitations copyright protection. In the past 10 yrs Blizz was fully aware of the situation with KeSPA and willfully neglected to enforce their IP claims. From my understanding, it is much more likely the court will side in favor of KeSPA regarding past matches.
1. Yes it is. 2. No there aren't (except the 75 year term limitations).
As much as I don't like copyright when it comes to non-profit situations, real piracy is wasteful. If the progaming teams (i.e. KeSPA) want to make money by playing Starcraft, they should license Starcraft period.
Performing Starcraft and profiteering from Starcraft are not the same thing.There are copyright provisions that limit the public viewing of television programs and movies even though they are made to be viewed publicly. Indeed, they are made to be viewed by millions of people, in their living rooms and in theatres with many people watching at the same time! Yes, that is copyright : the producers of television shows and movies get to decide where and when their property is shown publicly. The same should apply with games. Plus, games aren't made to be broadcasted unlike television shows and movies, but played. Having an audience/broadcasting is not covered by the ruling of the case you cited. The only provision that could apply is the non-profit/educational clause. I fail to see how it would apply the teams/KeSPA.
I don't like KeSPA for various blunders (ie: jaedong free agency, DQ for mistype, ban fbh hip thrust). But to not support them now is to abandon BW. I just can't bring myslef to watch an inferior game.
On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote: @Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA.
Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one.
Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for "abandonware" types of situations.
It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about.
Ignoring the law does not make you immune to it.
Sure I can make money by selling someone else's property. I can also get arrested and put in prison after the fact. I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
Edit @aru : I was responding to dybydx's interpretation of your post.
On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote: @Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA.
Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one.
Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for "abandonware" types of situations.
It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about.
Ignoring the law does not make you immune to it.
Sure I can make money by selling someone else's property. I can also get arrested and put in prison after the fact. I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
Edit @aru : I was responding to dybydx's interpretation of your post.
Your arguement is based on the pretense that broadcasted progame matches of BW are blizzards IP and up until this goes to court we can only speculate as to whether this is the case or not.
On September 01 2010 12:21 Bidouleroux wrote: I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
The issue is the judicial system is not as black and white as you're believing it is. Prime example, ever fought a speeding ticket and won? You might have exceeded the speedlimit, but there are limits to the fairness of which you are convicted and the officer must defend that.
There are crimes that exist in our society that merit no discussion of morals. Your wife analogy is unfounded because it is socially accepted to be a heinous crime and there will be no moral discussion regarding the beating of your wife for 10 years.
On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote: @Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA.
Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one.
Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for "abandonware" types of situations.
It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about.
Ignoring the law does not make you immune to it.
Sure I can make money by selling someone else's property. I can also get arrested and put in prison after the fact. I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
Edit @aru : I was responding to dybydx's interpretation of your post.
Your arguement is based on the pretense that broadcasted progame matches of BW are blizzards IP and up until this goes to court we can only speculate as to whether this is the case or not.
Blizzard owns the ruleset, the art, Starcraft trademark and the actual compiled binaries. What more do you need to own before you have the broadcast rights? Even if BW replays are not Blizzard's property like SC2 replays does not mean you can broadcast them without a license. Heck, you can't even play the game without a license (EULA) that Blizzard makes you agree to.
On September 01 2010 12:21 Bidouleroux wrote: I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
The issue is the judicial system is not as black and white as you're believing it is. Prime example, ever fought a speeding ticket and won? You might have exceeded the speedlimit, but there are limits to the fairness of which you are convicted and the officer must defend that.
There are crimes that exist in our society that merit no discussion of morals. Your wife analogy is unfounded because it is socially accepted to be a heinous crime and there will be no moral discussion regarding the beating of your wife for 10 years.
But a situation like this is far from the murder or beating of a woman. dyb is trying to say that the courts will question blizzard's motives based on the fact as a corporation, they didn't give a shit for 10 years about their IP, and now all of a sudden do. But, because ActiBlizz is a brand new company, they have every right to go over their properties and re-examine their position.
God, stop repeating that stupid "they didn't give a shit for 10 year" argument. It comes from trademark law and doesn't apply to copyright law (it's a provision of trademark law to counter squatting thousands of words indefinitely on the pretense that you trademarked them). My wife beating analogy was made to show how ridiculous that argument sounds in non-trademark cases.
In any way, corporations are moral entities and thus can act in immoral ways in regard of the law. To me, an insurance company refusing treatment to a beaten wife because of a technicality would be just as heinous of a crime as the actual beating even though it would not be illegal in most of the U.S.
KeSPA's hijacking of Starcraft's broadcast rights looks like the willful creation of a blackmarket economy based on exploiting grey areas concerning video games and broadcasting. Are they "games", "videos" or both or none? To me it doesn't matter : broadcast rights go to the creator unless you can find a damn good reason they should not.
This thread is meant to inform about an issue, not provide a venue for posters to spew venom. Try to discuss the issue without rape analogies or gratuitous profanity please.
And also, for the love of god, if you are not up to date on the whole situation, don't post and go read about it. So many messages here are ignorant of the whole situation.
On September 01 2010 13:00 Bidouleroux wrote: God, stop repeating that stupid "they didn't give a shit for 10 year" argument. It comes from trademark law and doesn't apply to copyright law (it's a provision of trademark law to counter squatting thousands of words indefinitely on the pretense that you trademarked them). My wife beating analogy was made to show how ridiculous that argument sounds in non-trademark cases.
im removing that to prevent misinformation. to reword, the issue is kespa finding itself as a ruling body and intertwining itself with SCBW so fervently, that blizzard's failure to protect its assets in the past years, is doubtful to have any effect on the changing of the situation in the future. but with actiblizz being a new and larger body, and the threatening of the careers of the progamers themselves, who knows how the situation will turn out.
On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote: @Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA.
Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one.
Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for "abandonware" types of situations.
It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about.
Ignoring the law does not make you immune to it.
Sure I can make money by selling someone else's property. I can also get arrested and put in prison after the fact. I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
Edit @aru : I was responding to dybydx's interpretation of your post.
Your arguement is based on the pretense that broadcasted progame matches of BW are blizzards IP and up until this goes to court we can only speculate as to whether this is the case or not.
Blizzard owns the ruleset, the art, Starcraft trademark and the actual compiled binaries. What more do you need to own before you have the broadcast rights? Even if BW replays are not Blizzard's property like SC2 replays does not mean you can broadcast them without a license. Heck, you can't even play the game without a license (EULA) that Blizzard makes you agree to.
Actually, it is KeSPA's rules that we rage about, not blizzard's. Blizzard had nothing to do with JD getting that win in the Nate MSL final, or not allowing players to chat in game. That's all KeSPA. Furthermore, the people who play the games are contracted under KeSPA. In other words, people who provide these deliciously entertaining BW games to us are people like JD, Flash, Fantasy, Stork, etc. Of course, we can't forget about KeSPA's contribution of shoutcasters for the games as well. Then you add in the fact that KeSPA organized these matches as well as made deals with the broadcasting companies to help get these games televised and broadcasted, well, I'd argue that's no longer clearly Blizzard's IP anymore. Not with the hard work everyone else put in.
I'm looking forward to Kespa going to court with ActivisionBlizzard, because I'm optimist about Kespa coming on top. Which means I still get to watch the greatest RTS ever made played by the greatest players ever. You seem to dislike BW so much, so I suggest you waltz back in your SC2 streams and watch ball of units roll over other ball of units.
I am sure SC2 community has some valuable people, why are only the clowns like xunaka, findingpride, I00I and a couple more coming to this thread when they dont even know what Kespa, e-sports and other important information mean?.
Korean Politics has always been about drama, tempers, and doing things behind another parties back by locking doors and signing papers before the other party could bust in and stop the signings.
Best to wait this out and see the results rather then watch the show most of the un-legit want to show.
Sad part is those who are working for/with Kespa who actually care about E-sports are getting brick-faced no matter how this boils down in the end.
On September 01 2010 14:16 aliciakeys wrote: LOL bw is over. time to start getting into sc2. dont worry it will get better with every expansion
Sure... have fun in Blizzards back and forth balancing the next years. Even if BW dies, Sc2 can never match that legacy. At least besides tasteless' terrible commentating i have another reason to not watch Gsl
I don't think this is as one sided as you all think. we all love brood war, It's still my favorite game of all time, even with SC2.
I have been a spectator for BW for as long as I can remember.
However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Companies in the world, like KeSPA have been making a fortune off of blizzards IP.
A lot of people scream a lot of negative things about blizzard here, but remember, blizzard created, made, refined, and provided us all with Starcraft. Not kespa, and not the pro gamers.
Blizzard worked very hard on their new product, and did a fine job. It is absolutely a worthy successor to starcraft. Does that mean Brood war needs to end? of course not. Brood war will always be played.
Blizzard is fine with that, but I feel they are tightening their grip over their rights. Why? It's their game. It's their IP, they own it. If you go to work every day and some random person is becoming a billionaire off of your product without purchasing licences or providing you with compensation that is not fair. You (Blizzard) should be a very important person in the direction of your own product.
Now, not to say blizzard isn't being rude about it, but they have the right to be, not KeSPA or any broadcasting corporation. They must bow to blizzard and that is how it should be.
We should be discussing ways in which blizzard can promote starcraft, and starcraft2 without ruining either of them.
and @zenMaster your comments are pretty rude. KeSPA will not win because the IP is not theirs. and if it wasn't for Blizzard you'd of never had starcraft in the first place.
SC2 is just as good a game, and it certainly isnt about balls of units rolling over balls of units. SC1 was like that as well when it first came out.
The better players (mainly korean) are microing and attaining apms that are very close to BW. the games are also very exciting. I'm just saying, you shouldn't generalize. Give the game time.
It's only a month old. I'd like to see SC1 a month after it came out. I never came in to play it until it was over a year old, but even then people were playing really oddly. and there was none of the fancy things you see today.
If i was to critize blizzard of anything it would be the speed in which they are pushing sc2. It takes time to do this transition. Broodwar is still in its prime. The progamers from SC1 will all switch to SC2 eventually, simply because it will provide far more income for the teams, but i dont think killing brood war right now is a good idea. let it transition slowly. I do believe however that kespa is just as much in the wrong as blizzard is, though.
@Obelisk8 Kespa as an organization cares about money. Remember that. Money first, starcraft second. They are just as much a tyrant as blizzard. Two sides to every coin.
I was not talking about money, I was talking about how Korean Politics are in general. I understand their need for money as with Blizzards...I'm just saying that Kespa is plaqued by the same issues as Korean Politics, which tends to be very dramatic when compared to other countries.
They don't understand how smart their audience is....they assume the Middle Schoolers are going to believe everything Kespa says when that is not the case. And its going to hurt them in the long run and make Blizzard look in the better light.
Blizzard spends a lot of time not talking, and its pulling in their favor.
On September 01 2010 14:49 Nu11 wrote: However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Starcraft is a sport and sports don't belong to anyone. E-sport would never grow if every company like valve etc. would act the same way. But oh well i don't care anymore talking in this thread everything has been said multiple times and im tired of argueing with people new to this scene. (not necessarily directed at you)
On September 01 2010 14:49 Nu11 wrote: However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Starcraft is a sport and sports don't belong to anyone. E-sport would never grow if every company like valve etc. would act the same way. But oh well i don't care anymore talking in this thread everything has been said multiple times and im tired of argueing with people new to this scene. (not necessarily directed at you)
Starcraft is not a sport, it's a video game. We could liken it to traditional sports as much as we want (players, leagues, stadiums, audiences, TV shows), but to play the video game you've got to buy the video game and agree to the EULA contracts. I don't see this happening in sports. And so now here we are in this predicament.
And it's useless to be commenting on spin news and random articles until the real verdict is out. Before when KESPA was pulling their bullshit with Nada pulling out of the game, everyone was jumping on the HATE KESPA bandwagon.
And now all this happened, and everyone is on the HATE BLIZZARD/GOM bandwagon.
Let's just wait for some results before we start laying the blame.
On September 01 2010 15:28 toadstool wrote: Let's just wait for some results before we start laying the blame.
On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote: However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL", and KeSPA reacted saying that "If you refuse to sign off on the Proleague, that's like saying we shouldn't be negotiating". Continuing, Gretech, rather than talking about intellectual property fees, has demanded "Reimbursement for the GSL", and KeSPA has rejected the guidelines set by Gretech.
You can start laying the blame now. The negotiations are a sham.
On September 01 2010 14:49 Nu11 wrote: However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Starcraft is a sport and sports don't belong to anyone. E-sport would never grow if every company like valve etc. would act the same way. But oh well i don't care anymore talking in this thread everything has been said multiple times and im tired of argueing with people new to this scene. (not necessarily directed at you)
no no, its totally fine to not wish to argue with someone new on the scene, that doesn't really fit me I'm just not much of a forum poster. I'm horrible at starcraft so I usually just read and watched.
But in any case, Its hard to compare starcraft and sports. Sports are an idea, they are an event which requires people and nothing else. The tools in which the people use to play the sports are like the keyboards and hardware pro-gamers use.
However, starcraft itself is not just an idea that can be done with any tool, it is more like the whole package. it is the arena as well is it not?
You just cant compare them. If I created a hockey rink, and you could put it on a flash drive and I invested millions of your hard earned money to create that rink, then did all the artwork, sound work, network code, balancing, technical things etc.
So then you sell passes to that "digital rink" which are your cd copies of starcraft. When you buy a video game, you do not own whats on it, you own the right to use it. However, you can not sell that content, or use that content for profit without a contract with the creator. Its like sneaking into that hockey rink and letting people play, charging them to play, getting paid for advertisements for that play, and never giving the rink owners any compensation, it just isn't fair.
its a hard thing to deal with and understand i know, but at the end of the day, starcraft is a video game. It is the product of a lot of hard work and investment from a company that took a risk in creating a product. That is responsible for the quality and the integrity of that product. It is not a sport. Playing starcraft at a competitive level is a sport. But Starcraft itself is a product, an intellectual property, and one that belongs to blizzard.
I just wish blizzard would be less demanding and open up a bit to kespa. SCBW can be profitable for both of them if they were not both so ignorant.
It's really sad at all. One the one hand you need big companies for esport but on the other hand they just kill it. It's obvious that Activison/Blizzard wants to make money, money, money. They don't care about breaking down the Korean SC:BW scene. Is there any official statement from the SC2 dev team? What about Dustin Browder's thoughts on that?
Regardless of IP rights (which KeSPA have said they are willing to pay) i think the point is it's counter-beneficial for Blizzard to even pursue this. eSports has no long term future if there a business that's goal is profit can run it as they feel like and shut it down when it's no longer in their interest to. If they actually cared about it then they would have left Korea to continue its current success and try to instead focus on another market such as China or the US. Instead the only direction they took is capitalizing on the existing scene instead of any expansion.. i don't see how people can defend this, especially as people keep saying they think Blizzard is planning to make eSports international. Yet here you are with the GSL completely based in Korea?
Despite Blizzards claims everything they seem to be doing including the new Bnet and now this seems to be completely against eSports.
On September 01 2010 14:04 palexhur wrote: I am sure SC2 community has some valuable people, why are only the clowns like xunaka, findingpride, I00I and a couple more coming to this thread when they dont even know what Kespa, e-sports and other important information mean?.
Thats funny because, I never once said I wanted BW to die, nor did I say I'm Pro SC2? You seem to misconstrue quite a bit as I've been watching pro league for quite a long time.. It's sad that you're only valid point you could think to make is that you have to insult people.
What I simply stated is that, I dislike KESPA for a lot of the things they've done in the past, and that blizzard isn't trying to kill off the BW scene.. Why would they kill off something that makes so much money?
Infact I went out of my way to not make this a BW vs SC2 thread which is what most people intend to do, because they have some kind of issue with either game.. I don't see why people have to turn this into some kind of SC vs SC2 or personal attacks on each other, I respect your opinions on kespa and didnt write a post insulting you or them.. It's pretty childish
I do not believe blizzard turned a blind eye to their IP being violated for 10 years either, more than likely KESPA and blizzard had many private contractual negotiations for many years as most companies do.. You never hear about those until there are issues, the same thing happens in the US with TV channels and broadcasters.
Blizzard did not wake up one morning and say "We want to own and control esports" there was a long build up to it, resulting in money not being paid over periods of time.. You cannot take something someone else owns and then turn profit on it.. Without paying them royalties.. Blizzard tried to work with KESPA as well..
On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote: However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL", and KeSPA reacted saying that "If you refuse to sign off on the Proleague, that's like saying we shouldn't be negotiating". Continuing, Gretech, rather than talking about intellectual property fees, has demanded "Reimbursement for the GSL", and KeSPA has rejected the guidelines set by Gretech.
You can start laying the blame now. The negotiations are a sham.
Ah yes, lets just accept one organizations biased statement over another organizations biased statements with no reasoning to back it up. Awesome.
On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote: @Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA.
Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one.
Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for "abandonware" types of situations.
It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about.
Ignoring the law does not make you immune to it.
Sure I can make money by selling someone else's property. I can also get arrested and put in prison after the fact. I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
Edit @aru : I was responding to dybydx's interpretation of your post.
This is korean law which is pretty ambiguous about this stuff.
On September 01 2010 14:49 Nu11 wrote: I don't think this is as one sided as you all think. we all love brood war, It's still my favorite game of all time, even with SC2.
I have been a spectator for BW for as long as I can remember.
However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Companies in the world, like KeSPA have been making a fortune off of blizzards IP.
A lot of people scream a lot of negative things about blizzard here, but remember, blizzard created, made, refined, and provided us all with Starcraft. Not kespa, and not the pro gamers.
Blizzard worked very hard on their new product, and did a fine job. It is absolutely a worthy successor to starcraft. Does that mean Brood war needs to end? of course not. Brood war will always be played.
Blizzard is fine with that, but I feel they are tightening their grip over their rights. Why? It's their game. It's their IP, they own it. If you go to work every day and some random person is becoming a billionaire off of your product without purchasing licences or providing you with compensation that is not fair. You (Blizzard) should be a very important person in the direction of your own product.
Now, not to say blizzard isn't being rude about it, but they have the right to be, not KeSPA or any broadcasting corporation. They must bow to blizzard and that is how it should be.
We should be discussing ways in which blizzard can promote starcraft, and starcraft2 without ruining either of them.
and @zenMaster your comments are pretty rude. KeSPA will not win because the IP is not theirs. and if it wasn't for Blizzard you'd of never had starcraft in the first place.
SC2 is just as good a game, and it certainly isnt about balls of units rolling over balls of units. SC1 was like that as well when it first came out.
The better players (mainly korean) are microing and attaining apms that are very close to BW. the games are also very exciting. I'm just saying, you shouldn't generalize. Give the game time.
It's only a month old. I'd like to see SC1 a month after it came out. I never came in to play it until it was over a year old, but even then people were playing really oddly. and there was none of the fancy things you see today.
If i was to critize blizzard of anything it would be the speed in which they are pushing sc2. It takes time to do this transition. Broodwar is still in its prime. The progamers from SC1 will all switch to SC2 eventually, simply because it will provide far more income for the teams, but i dont think killing brood war right now is a good idea. let it transition slowly. I do believe however that kespa is just as much in the wrong as blizzard is, though.
@Obelisk8 Kespa as an organization cares about money. Remember that. Money first, starcraft second. They are just as much a tyrant as blizzard. Two sides to every coin.
We're not talking about Canada here. We're talking about Korea. Different set of laws. Canadian law does not apply to Korea. Kinda like how you can't get sued for downloading music because of some tax in Canada. In the US its different. Same situation with Korea.
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
throw in some truth then! Actually I've awaited you 8 pages ago
On September 01 2010 14:49 Nu11 wrote: I don't think this is as one sided as you all think. we all love brood war, It's still my favorite game of all time, even with SC2.
I have been a spectator for BW for as long as I can remember.
However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Companies in the world, like KeSPA have been making a fortune off of blizzards IP.
A lot of people scream a lot of negative things about blizzard here, but remember, blizzard created, made, refined, and provided us all with Starcraft. Not kespa, and not the pro gamers.
Blizzard worked very hard on their new product, and did a fine job. It is absolutely a worthy successor to starcraft. Does that mean Brood war needs to end? of course not. Brood war will always be played.
Blizzard is fine with that, but I feel they are tightening their grip over their rights. Why? It's their game. It's their IP, they own it. If you go to work every day and some random person is becoming a billionaire off of your product without purchasing licences or providing you with compensation that is not fair. You (Blizzard) should be a very important person in the direction of your own product.
Now, not to say blizzard isn't being rude about it, but they have the right to be, not KeSPA or any broadcasting corporation. They must bow to blizzard and that is how it should be.
We should be discussing ways in which blizzard can promote starcraft, and starcraft2 without ruining either of them.
and @zenMaster your comments are pretty rude. KeSPA will not win because the IP is not theirs. and if it wasn't for Blizzard you'd of never had starcraft in the first place.
SC2 is just as good a game, and it certainly isnt about balls of units rolling over balls of units. SC1 was like that as well when it first came out.
The better players (mainly korean) are microing and attaining apms that are very close to BW. the games are also very exciting. I'm just saying, you shouldn't generalize. Give the game time.
It's only a month old. I'd like to see SC1 a month after it came out. I never came in to play it until it was over a year old, but even then people were playing really oddly. and there was none of the fancy things you see today.
If i was to critize blizzard of anything it would be the speed in which they are pushing sc2. It takes time to do this transition. Broodwar is still in its prime. The progamers from SC1 will all switch to SC2 eventually, simply because it will provide far more income for the teams, but i dont think killing brood war right now is a good idea. let it transition slowly. I do believe however that kespa is just as much in the wrong as blizzard is, though.
@Obelisk8 Kespa as an organization cares about money. Remember that. Money first, starcraft second. They are just as much a tyrant as blizzard. Two sides to every coin.
We're not talking about Canada here. We're talking about Korea. Different set of laws. Canadian law does not apply to Korea. Kinda like how you can't get sued for downloading music because of some tax in Canada. In the US its different. Same situation with Korea.
Good point, I retract any statements I had with regards to IP rights in korea if that's not the case, but I would hope korea, being an established nation would at least have the general IP rights. I can't imagine they don't. How would any business prosper without IP.. seems like it would just be a long chain of theft to me.
but after what happened with the showmatch at the IEM in cologne (calling to stop the match they have agreed on (while it was going on ffs!) and then denying they had anything to do with it, like a 5 year old kid) i have lost what little faith i had left in kespa. i do not believe anything coming from them as they have no dignity whatsoever and it is not the first time nor the second you can catch a glimpse of the disgusting policies kespa sticks to. lets hope kespa will be dead soon and players wont get abused and restricted as much any more in the future. i keep my fingers crossed those arrogant lying bitches are put out of business ASAP...
as long as there is interest in BW, and yes there still is and rightfully so, there will be pros playing it for the audience.
On September 01 2010 21:36 torfteufel wrote: hope dies last they say
but after what happened with the showmatch at the IEM in cologne (calling to stop the match they have agreed on (while it was going on ffs!) and then denying they had anything to do with it, like a 5 year old kid) i have lost what little faith i had left in kespa. i do not believe anything coming from them as they have no dignity whatsoever and it is not the first time nor the second you can catch a glimpse of the disgusting policies kespa sticks to. lets hope kespa will be dead soon and players wont get abused and restricted as much any more in the future. i keep my fingers crossed those arrogant lying bitches are put out of business ASAP...
as long as there is interest in BW, and yes there still is and rightfully so, there will be pros playing it for the audience.
Way to simplify things...without kespa, chances are high that the progaming teams will be disbanded. I want to see how you still want to have professional Broodwar after that.
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
Words words words...
You have something to add to the whole thing, or you just want to show that you know the shit?
That's funny, because I am pretty sure that yourself, on a certain extend has no idea at all about what is going on. Most probably there must be a couple dozen people in total who can really say that they are well informed on that matter: people who have participated to the negociations, who know the financial situation of the Kespa and the pro-scene, etc etc...
I don't take a great risk by assuming that you have no idea about theses details, and therefore that you can't judge the situation much better than anyone of us.
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
Words words words...
You have something to add to the whole thing, or you just want to show that you know the shit?
This.
Though some people have definitely been too hasty to jump to conclusions, that kind of comment seems completely unnecessary.
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
Words words words...
You have something to add to the whole thing, or you just want to show that you know the shit?
That's funny, because I am pretty sure that yourself, on a certain extend has no idea at all about what is going on. Most probably there must be a couple dozen people in total who can really say that they are well informed on that matter: people who have participated to the negociations, who know the financial situation of the Kespa and the pro-scene, etc etc...
I don't take a great risk by assuming that you have no idea about theses details, and therefore that you can't judge the situation much better than anyone of us.
This is an Ongoing battle for years between Blizzard who doesn't like Kespa ignoring it's IP rights and Kespa who thinks they don't owe nothing to Blizzard (since they helped put BW on Tv so to speak)
From what I understand Blizzard effectively lost that battle a few years ago over BW because Kespa threatened to cut off any player who decided to go play for anything not affiliated with Kespa. (See GOMtv)
However now since the money (Audience/Supply) is quickly shifting towards a new game, the hold Kespa has over the players is going to become tenuous at best, and while I'm fairly certain we will here some more bad press from Kespa on how this is horrible for the players, or that SC2 is the worst game ever... blah blah blah... eventually they will have to release the players to play whatever they want...
On September 01 2010 21:36 torfteufel wrote: hope dies last they say
but after what happened with the showmatch at the IEM in cologne (calling to stop the match they have agreed on (while it was going on ffs!) and then denying they had anything to do with it, like a 5 year old kid) i have lost what little faith i had left in kespa. i do not believe anything coming from them as they have no dignity whatsoever and it is not the first time nor the second you can catch a glimpse of the disgusting policies kespa sticks to. lets hope kespa will be dead soon and players wont get abused and restricted as much any more in the future. i keep my fingers crossed those arrogant lying bitches are put out of business ASAP...
as long as there is interest in BW, and yes there still is and rightfully so, there will be pros playing it for the audience.
Way to simplify things...without kespa, chances are high that the progaming teams will be disbanded. I want to see how you still want to have professional Broodwar after that.
The progaming teams exist because of Kespa, no doubt. However Kespa is still alive and running despite legal and negotiating disputes because it can force it's teams to play only in Kespa approved leagues.
All of that is basically run by us, namely the audience and what we want to watch. If most of us want to watch Sc2, eventually there will be more money playing for GOMtv. If Kespa decides to start a SC2 league, they get sued by another Korean corporation (Blizzards partner). If they decide to force the players to just play BW, eventually contracts will end and players might be offered bigger contracts to play for GOMtv... Heck once Kespa loses its grip on the players... you could see a BW league but with another partner.
My point is... If we the viewers or the players lose anything, it won't be to Blizzard, it will be to Kespa trying one last attempt to flaunt the grip it has over the teams and the players... and to be honest... that will only last for as long as the players contracts will last. (Any player with a good manager shouldn't be tied into Kespa for that much longer less some seriously bad decisions were made)
On September 02 2010 01:17 Furycrab wrote: My point is... If we the viewers or the players lose anything, it won't be to Blizzard, it will be to Kespa
I'm reasonably sure that if Blizzard left the BW scene alone, I wouldn't be worrying about the danger of no more Proleague or MSL right now. Are you really saying otherwise? Really?
MBCGame had the same amount of time as OnGameNet did to get their paperwork done. Seeing that OnGameNet was able to get their contract within reasonable time to finish the current OSL, there was no reason for MBCGame to not do it themselves. Yeah the new restrictions suck, but you gotta do what you gotta do legally.
And I'm pretty sure the Progamers knew the risks when they took a progaming career. Progaming isn't exactly a long-term career (look at BoxeR, that guy is barely hanging on and he just turned 30). It wouldn't be too hard for them to transition if the worst happens.
On September 01 2010 23:14 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
Words words words...
You have something to add to the whole thing, or you just want to show that you know the shit?
That's funny, because I am pretty sure that yourself, on a certain extend has no idea at all about what is going on. Most probably there must be a couple dozen people in total who can really say that they are well informed on that matter: people who have participated to the negociations, who know the financial situation of the Kespa and the pro-scene, etc etc...
I don't take a great risk by assuming that you have no idea about theses details, and therefore that you can't judge the situation much better than anyone of us.
it is expected that OGN had an easier deal because CJ owns both OGN and Gretech. while Gretech may claim both OGN and MBC are offered "the same deal", there are many ways to interpret "same".
On September 02 2010 01:17 Furycrab wrote: My point is... If we the viewers or the players lose anything, it won't be to Blizzard, it will be to Kespa
I'm reasonably sure that if Blizzard left the BW scene alone, I wouldn't be worrying about the danger of no more Proleague or MSL right now. Are you really saying otherwise? Really?
If they decided to back off, they resign every player, make a schedule to compete with the GSL, get bolder over time, possibly attempt to run exibition matches of SC2, they invite players to play, hold em all to huge contracts where they can't play for anyone else, and eventually when Blizzard thinks they have had enough, they start a huge suit where the biggest point of contention becomes: Well you were cool with giving us rights to the Proleague. That's pretty much how most of the dispute started for BW a few years ago.
I love proleague, and the various star leagues... I don't like how Kespa is holding the players to play only for them, and ignore the IP rights.
Even the latest bit in the rumor mill to come out is fairly laughable:
" Oh we want to pay for the IP for proleague, how much do you want, btw Proleague doesn't make a dime *hides the huge executive bonuses*. If GOMtv ask for anything we turn around and take it out of the players and the prize pools and make a huge press release on how it's GOMtv's fault and Blizzard hates the players" mahahahahah.
On September 02 2010 01:17 Furycrab wrote: My point is... If we the viewers or the players lose anything, it won't be to Blizzard, it will be to Kespa
I'm reasonably sure that if Blizzard left the BW scene alone, I wouldn't be worrying about the danger of no more Proleague or MSL right now. Are you really saying otherwise? Really?
If they decided to back off, they resign every player, make a schedule to compete with the GSL, get bolder over time, possibly attempt to run exibition matches of SC2, they invite players to play, hold em all to huge contracts where they can't play for anyone else, and eventually when Blizzard thinks they have had enough, they start a huge suit where the biggest point of contention becomes: Well you were cool with giving us rights to the Proleague. That's pretty much how most of the dispute started for BW a few years ago.
I love proleague, and the various star leagues... I don't like how Kespa is holding the players to play only for them, and ignore the IP rights.
Even the latest bit in the rumor mill to come out is fairly laughable:
" Oh we want to pay for the IP for proleague, how much do you want, btw Proleague doesn't make a dime *hides the huge executive bonuses*. If GOMtv ask for anything we turn around and take it out of the players and the prize pools and make a huge press release on how it's GOMtv's fault and Blizzard hates the players" mahahahahah.
what the eff are you talking about? so many random sc2 players come on here to defend blizzard
kespa doesnt hold the players up for huge contracts. kespa help the teams to OFFER the players a contract. the contracts are beneficial to the players as they rather be paid a base salary with bonus for winning games rather than simply relying on tournament winnings. July (the zerg player, not the month) once left his team for another because the old team only offered him pay-for-win where as the new team offered him a base salary + bonus-for-win.
so ya, despite all the drama, the players know they needed kespa.
On September 02 2010 01:17 Furycrab wrote: My point is... If we the viewers or the players lose anything, it won't be to Blizzard, it will be to Kespa
I'm reasonably sure that if Blizzard left the BW scene alone, I wouldn't be worrying about the danger of no more Proleague or MSL right now. Are you really saying otherwise? Really?
If they decided to back off, they resign every player, make a schedule to compete with the GSL, get bolder over time, possibly attempt to run exibition matches of SC2, they invite players to play, hold em all to huge contracts where they can't play for anyone else, and eventually when Blizzard thinks they have had enough, they start a huge suit where the biggest point of contention becomes: Well you were cool with giving us rights to the Proleague. That's pretty much how most of the dispute started for BW a few years ago.
I love proleague, and the various star leagues... I don't like how Kespa is holding the players to play only for them, and ignore the IP rights.
Even the latest bit in the rumor mill to come out is fairly laughable:
" Oh we want to pay for the IP for proleague, how much do you want, btw Proleague doesn't make a dime *hides the huge executive bonuses*. If GOMtv ask for anything we turn around and take it out of the players and the prize pools and make a huge press release on how it's GOMtv's fault and Blizzard hates the players" mahahahahah.
what the eff are you talking about? so many random sc2 players come on here to defend blizzard
Which part?
The first? It's no secret players under Kespa are limited in what they can say or even what they can play. (Nada) That's how Kespa has kept any and all leverage in the negotiations with GOM.
The second? If I tell you I'm willing to pay for something if you just name a price, and then I tell you that I currently don't make any money, I am basically saying that I will have to take that money from something. Likely from the players and from Kespa history, it would involve a huge ton of press. So ya, that's pretty laughable.
I work around IP and I believe in IP and how it's what pushes people to make great games. So ya I'd rather side with the guys making the game, than the guys that are trying to turn it into a show by forcing the players to just play for them.
I have sent them a very polite email regarding the issue but I would be surprise if the respond.
Yea... Thanks though. I think with enough voice we can make an impact. If we can't muster enough support, then it will show them how small we really are -_-;
On September 02 2010 05:20 thedeadhaji wrote: Pretty interesting that OGN took the terms but the theoretically "bigger" MBCgame didn't comply.
Might be because accepting the terms have longer term consequences for the entire MBC network's negotiations and positioning?
(only a conjecture ofc)
Do you means MBC's positioning as a team sponsor? MBC has its own channel, but so does OGN, and both would still be making money (not necessarily MORE money.. more on this later) by switching to SC2. I think it's a reflection of the instability of the transition from BW -> SC2 since a corporation's hesitations are representative of their profit insecurity should the transition happen. The reason there would be profit insecurity is because of consumer-based evaluations. And the reason the evaluations would cause insecurity is because there isn't much enthusiasm about this change within the market, at least no unified movement, which I'm sure Blizzard was hoping for.
Does anyone see any faults with the above reasoning? I was just conjecturing.
Okay. In germany you cant patent computer software. Let them host MSL / OSL in germany!
edit: and if the law is the same in korea, then what is the problem? fuck the gretech/blizzard-shit and see what they can do by korean law if the just dont stop hosting and televising tournaments. i bet they can do nothing.
ps: is it now generally forbidden to host tournaments and broadcast the games? for everybody? are lan events forbidden? broadcasted lan events? is this a popularity thing? or is it only forbidden in korea? and does wcg have to pay to gretech/blizzard?
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
God dammit. I know this is typical corporate bullshit, but still pisses me off. Pro SCBW is just so much better than SC2. Personally I think without BW, we're gonna see how average a game SC2 really is.
On September 02 2010 08:46 Heimatloser wrote: Okay. In germany you cant patent computer software. Let them host MSL / OSL in germany!
edit: and if the law is the same in korea, then what is the problem? fuck the gretech/blizzard-shit and see what they can do by korean law if the just dont stop hosting and televising tournaments. i bet they can do nothing.
ps: is it now generally forbidden to host tournaments and broadcast the games? for everybody? are lan events forbidden? broadcasted lan events? is this a popularity thing? or is it only forbidden in korea? and does wcg have to pay to gretech/blizzard?
according to Blizz, ANY tournaments for BW or SC2, regardless it is broadcasted or not must receive permission from Blizz.
for SC2, the EULA specifically demands that you GIVE Blizz ownership of all material you send to them, including game play data, which is collected as stream and as replay. it also includes every map you have created and played.
also, if you bought a physical copy of SC2, the disk itself is property of Blizz. you merely got a license to use the disk. if you violate the EULA, your term of use becomes void. continuing to play the game constitute piracy because you do not OWN the disk itself.
I love proleague, and the various star leagues... I don't like how Kespa is holding the players to play only for them, and ignore the IP rights.
Do you think Real Madrid let Cristiano Ronaldo to play in random exhibition matches too ? No, he plays only for them. It's the same with every professional everywhere. They represent their clubs and their leagues and can't play anywhere and for anybody without their permission. Kespa protects their right to teams and image of pros because kespa pays for and organize the whole thing.
according to Blizz, ANY tournaments for BW or SC2, regardless it is broadcasted or not must receive permission from Blizz.
for SC2, the EULA specifically demands that you GIVE Blizz ownership of all material you send to them, including game play data, which is collected as stream and as replay. it also includes every map you have created and played.
also, if you bought a physical copy of SC2, the disk itself is property of Blizz. you merely got a license to use the disk. if you violate the EULA, your term of use becomes void. continuing to play the game constitute piracy because you do not OWN the disk itself.
The situation is retarded. People should really become more aware and just ignore every company who tries to sell their products with such license. I hope one day it will come back to bite Blizz in the ass.
To people pissed about Nada being removed: I see no problem with it. He may be a starcraft player, but that's not why he's paid. He gets paid for being positive PR for WeMade. KeSPA represents the teams and validates BW, so if they're doing something that wouldn't be beneficial to the company that pays the player for being good PR, then they have the responsibility to stop it.
On September 02 2010 05:20 thedeadhaji wrote: Pretty interesting that OGN took the terms but the theoretically "bigger" MBCgame didn't comply.
Might be because accepting the terms have longer term consequences for the entire MBC network's negotiations and positioning?
(only a conjecture ofc)
OnMedia, their parent company, is pretty darn big though... plus everything they do is cable-based, so they get actual $$$ for their products as well as advertising dollars. MBC is like the poor bastard child of the major TV stations; it's not as popular for its programming like KBS/KBS2 is, and it doesn't have SBS's sports muscle (exclusive winter olympics + yuna kim, exclusive world cup).
On September 02 2010 01:17 Furycrab wrote: My point is... If we the viewers or the players lose anything, it won't be to Blizzard, it will be to Kespa
I'm reasonably sure that if Blizzard left the BW scene alone, I wouldn't be worrying about the danger of no more Proleague or MSL right now. Are you really saying otherwise? Really?
If they decided to back off, they resign every player, make a schedule to compete with the GSL, get bolder over time, possibly attempt to run exibition matches of SC2, they invite players to play, hold em all to huge contracts where they can't play for anyone else, and eventually when Blizzard thinks they have had enough, they start a huge suit where the biggest point of contention becomes: Well you were cool with giving us rights to the Proleague. That's pretty much how most of the dispute started for BW a few years ago.
I love proleague, and the various star leagues... I don't like how Kespa is holding the players to play only for them, and ignore the IP rights.
Even the latest bit in the rumor mill to come out is fairly laughable:
" Oh we want to pay for the IP for proleague, how much do you want, btw Proleague doesn't make a dime *hides the huge executive bonuses*. If GOMtv ask for anything we turn around and take it out of the players and the prize pools and make a huge press release on how it's GOMtv's fault and Blizzard hates the players" mahahahahah.
If you owned a major company with thousands of workers, would you just allow them to work for a rival company? Damn you people with your retarded arguments!
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
On August 31 2010 20:32 Gregsen wrote: Blizzard didn't fucking care about property rights for more than 7 years, they should have no right whatsoever to claim them now just because there's more money to make now.
I hope the korean court totally fucks those bastards over.
You don't lose your property rights just because you didn't care about them in the past lol.
There is an interesting case in fanfiction. Were the original author (Marion Zimmer Bradley) used ideas that were present in someones fanfic. The fanfic writer then sued for co-author status.
Kespa could claim similar status, as clearly someone at activision has watched a kespa match sometime.
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
I love the arguments that kespa did free advertising for Blizzard for 7 years that led to the success of SC2. SC1 was a good/instant classic before anyone even thought of doing pro-gaming with it so I'm pretty sure SC2 would of been a smash hit regardless of the pro gaming scene in SC1. Chances are 90% of the average Joes don't even know that there's such a pro gaming scene for SC1 but they brought SC2 because SC1 was so epic.
Maybe SC2 wouldn't have sold as many copies because of the 7 years of "free advertising" but stop making it sound like the only reason SC2 sold 1.8 million copies (excluding korea) in one day was because of the korean pro-gaming scene. According to some of the posts I've read on TL, it didn't even sell that well in Korea.
On September 03 2010 03:58 andrewlt wrote: Many of you guys are unreasonable. Just because somebody ignored a thief for 10 years doesn't mean that it stops being stealing.
all of you dont understand! you can steal a copy of a game cd, but youre not stealing anything by playing it. just like you can steal a football, but if youre using a ball to play soccer, then what the fuck are you stealing? Is the Football Association FIFA stealing something from the inventor of the ball?
this is so american... in the land where you can accuse the hamburger company for making you fat, its obvious that a game company can accuse ppl of playing their game. but for everybody non-american this whole situation seems so god damn stupid...
On September 03 2010 03:58 andrewlt wrote: Many of you guys are unreasonable. Just because somebody ignored a thief for 10 years doesn't mean that it stops being stealing.
all of you dont understand! you can steal a copy of a game cd, but youre not stealing anything by playing it. just like you can steal a football, but if youre using a ball to play soccer, then what the fuck are you stealing? Is the Football Association FIFA stealing something from the inventor of the ball?
this is so american... in the land where you can accuse the hamburger company for making you fat, its obvious that a game company can accuse ppl of playing their game. but for everybody non-american this whole situation seems so god damn stupid...
Just because you don't understand copyright law doesn't mean it's stupid. There's a reason you all play American games and your videogame industries are either extremely niche or dead.
It's especially funny that your example is a game invented hundreds of years ago before copyright laws were needed. Without these contracts, there's really no reason for Blizzard to support e-sports and balance the game for e-sports, no matter how large you guys blow out of proportion the percentage of SC:BW sales that are due to e-sports.
On September 03 2010 03:58 andrewlt wrote: Many of you guys are unreasonable. Just because somebody ignored a thief for 10 years doesn't mean that it stops being stealing.
all of you dont understand! you can steal a copy of a game cd, but youre not stealing anything by playing it. just like you can steal a football, but if youre using a ball to play soccer, then what the fuck are you stealing? Is the Football Association FIFA stealing something from the inventor of the ball?
this is so american... in the land where you can accuse the hamburger company for making you fat, its obvious that a game company can accuse ppl of playing their game. but for everybody non-american this whole situation seems so god damn stupid...
Well football in itself is free rights as nobody own it nor can claim it, now a lot of things in football are associated with rights and must be bougth to be used in a video games for example. This is not a free market at all... but I think you knew that already. This is just like chess or biking, it comes from an era where such rights didnt exist and were most probably made just for entertainment without much investment.
Now for video games, the creator has every rights to forbid you to make profit out of it without return to the creator. This is absolutly normal and I dont think a lot of people here would be so inclined to just let a lot of money pass under their nose if someone was using their own intellectual property. Quick example, you develop a new board game in your basement, sell it, it becomes quite popular and you sell it a lot in your local area. You live from it but you would like a bit more. Now someone comes and make tournament of your board game, and make big money from advertising, tickets and so on. They make a lot of money out of your own creation, I now very few people that would be like : who cares. Most will just see it as justice that they should be paid a fee for such things.
Now Im worried like everyone else about what will happen in the pro-scene and I dont know the exact details of what Blizz asks foor the rights, they might ask too much and it is very wrong if there is little profit to be made after paying them. But one must start to realize Blizz is not 100% evil and the counter part 100% good.
As for your opinion on Americans, I dont think TL is a place for antiamericanism raised by poor information full of clichés.
On September 03 2010 05:27 rezoacken wrote: Now for video games, the creator has every rights to forbid you to make profit out of it without return to the creator. This is absolutly normal and I dont think a lot of people here would be so inclined to just let a lot of money pass under their nose if someone was using their own intellectual property. Quick example, you develop a new board game in your basement, sell it, it becomes quite popular and you sell it a lot in your local area. You live from it but you would like a bit more. Now someone comes and make tournament of your board game, and make big money from advertising, tickets and so on. They make a lot of money out of your own creation, I now very few people that would be like : who cares. Most will just see it as justice that they should be paid a fee for such things.
If you're really trying to use this analogy (and to be honest, I think it's a good parallel), it shows that Activision-Blizzard should get their hands off of such third party usage of the game they sold to you. Board games like Scrabble, published by Hasbro, have tournaments held all over the world at all sorts of scales, from local clubs to world championships. And there are no royalties, rules or restrictions on who can hold such tournaments, nor do they have to pay Hasbro. There's no need to get Hasbro's permission to run a tournament, and Hasbro doesn't place any restrictions on those wishing to run tournaments. The large national tournaments are run by a committee that is independent from Hasbro, too.
Are you really a person who believes that the creator of some software, tool, or device should retain all rights associated with their creation even if a customer pays for it? What did the customer pay for after all if the customer gets no rights? Do keep in mind that players of the game have already compensated the creator by purchasing the game itself. And organizers of events, or people who use the software to create game footage, etc - they all as well have paid to use the software.
On September 03 2010 03:58 andrewlt wrote: Many of you guys are unreasonable. Just because somebody ignored a thief for 10 years doesn't mean that it stops being stealing.
all of you dont understand! you can steal a copy of a game cd, but youre not stealing anything by playing it. just like you can steal a football, but if youre using a ball to play soccer, then what the fuck are you stealing? Is the Football Association FIFA stealing something from the inventor of the ball?
this is so american... in the land where you can accuse the hamburger company for making you fat, its obvious that a game company can accuse ppl of playing their game. but for everybody non-american this whole situation seems so god damn stupid...
Well football in itself is free rights as nobody own it nor can claim it, now a lot of things in football are associated with rights and must be bougth to be used in a video games for example. This is not a free market at all... but I think you knew that already. This is just like chess or biking, it comes from an era where such rights didnt exist and were most probably made just for entertainment without much investment.
Now for video games, the creator has every rights to forbid you to make profit out of it without return to the creator. This is absolutly normal and I dont think a lot of people here would be so inclined to just let a lot of money pass under their nose if someone was using their own intellectual property. Quick example, you develop a new board game in your basement, sell it, it becomes quite popular and you sell it a lot in your local area. You live from it but you would like a bit more. Now someone comes and make tournament of your board game, and make big money from advertising, tickets and so on. They make a lot of money out of your own creation, I now very few people that would be like : who cares. Most will just see it as justice that they should be paid a fee for such things.
Now Im worried like everyone else about what will happen in the pro-scene and I dont know the exact details of what Blizz asks foor the rights, they might ask too much and it is very wrong if there is little profit to be made after paying them. But one must start to realize Blizz is not 100% evil and the counter part 100% good.
As for your opinion on Americans, I dont think TL is a place for antiamericanism raised by poor information full of clichés.
its not that i dont understand software copyright law. its just a fact that those laws dont exist in germany, and we do everything to maintain this status. this is no anti-americanism, but the rest of the world seems to just different in this area. just because the software laws are young they dont need to be abused.
the hasbro-example showed above is good, counter that. Or other board-games, card-games, sport-games, its the same everywhere. does a runner have to pay nike and reebok for using their shoes in a marathon?
Another analogy would be if Adobe Photoshop included in their EULA that all creations that used their software belongs to them. It's outrageous that a developer wants to take possession of what their users create (be it an image using Photoshop or SC replays).
On September 03 2010 03:58 andrewlt wrote: Many of you guys are unreasonable. Just because somebody ignored a thief for 10 years doesn't mean that it stops being stealing.
all of you dont understand! you can steal a copy of a game cd, but youre not stealing anything by playing it. just like you can steal a football, but if youre using a ball to play soccer, then what the fuck are you stealing? Is the Football Association FIFA stealing something from the inventor of the ball?
this is so american... in the land where you can accuse the hamburger company for making you fat, its obvious that a game company can accuse ppl of playing their game. but for everybody non-american this whole situation seems so god damn stupid...
Just because you don't understand copyright law doesn't mean it's stupid. There's a reason you all play American games and your videogame industries are either extremely niche or dead.
It's especially funny that your example is a game invented hundreds of years ago before copyright laws were needed. Without these contracts, there's really no reason for Blizzard to support e-sports and balance the game for e-sports, no matter how large you guys blow out of proportion the percentage of SC:BW sales that are due to e-sports.
This isn't the US. US courts have no jurisdiction.
It's about time that Blizzard is putting their foot down with the BW scene in Korea.
Blizzard put a-lot of hard work into SC2 and its natural for them to want to see the game progress in the E-Sports scene. People playing BW in tournaments now is like watching people play Halo 1, instead of Halo 3?
Why keep playing the original when the new is out, sure people can keep playing BW without any restriction. But when companies like KeSPA/MBC are benefiting through sponsorship, viewer ship and mass media coverage. Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting best serves themselves and their customers even if many don't agree. I'm sure a majority of users HAVE made the switch from BW to SC2.
I know many don't agree with me, this is just my opinion, I agree with Blizzard for removing BW or taking steps to remove it from the Pro-Gaming scene not only in korea but the rest of the world too.
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
Welcome to the Internetz.
User was warned for this post
"Please put some effort into your posts. One word replies and other low content posts are not appreciated here."
and rekruls response was pretty constructive. Good one mod's keep up the great work.
On September 03 2010 09:57 kyrshiro wrote: It's about time that Blizzard is putting their foot down with the BW scene in Korea.
Blizzard put a-lot of hard work into SC2 and its natural for them to want to see the game progress in the E-Sports scene. People playing BW in tournaments now is like watching people play Halo 1, instead of Halo 3?
Why keep playing the original when the new is out, sure people can keep playing BW without any restriction. But when companies like KeSPA/MBC are benefiting through sponsorship, viewer ship and mass media coverage. Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting best serves themselves and their customers even if many don't agree. I'm sure a majority of users HAVE made the switch from BW to SC2.
I know many don't agree with me, this is just my opinion, I agree with Blizzard for removing BW or taking steps to remove it from the Pro-Gaming scene not only in korea but the rest of the world too.
On September 03 2010 09:57 kyrshiro wrote: Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting best serves themselves and their customers even if many don't agree.
So BW purchasers and buyers now don't count as customers anymore?
I agree with Blizzard for removing BW or taking steps to remove it from the Pro-Gaming scene not only in korea but the rest of the world too.
I have to very strongly disagree. Blizzard has a right to promote their new game. But purposely killing a great game with a decade of glorious history on the hopes that a month old game MIGHT do better is obscene IMO. And if there is a way to legally remove their and any game makers right to kill off their own game, I hope it is found.
P.S. would it be fair if microsoft put out a patch making halo 1/2/3 unplayable on reach's launch day? And would it be legal?
On September 03 2010 09:57 kyrshiro wrote: It's about time that Blizzard is putting their foot down with the BW scene in Korea.
Blizzard put a-lot of hard work into SC2 and its natural for them to want to see the game progress in the E-Sports scene. People playing BW in tournaments now is like watching people play Halo 1, instead of Halo 3?
Why keep playing the original when the new is out, sure people can keep playing BW without any restriction. But when companies like KeSPA/MBC are benefiting through sponsorship, viewer ship and mass media coverage. Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting best serves themselves and their customers even if many don't agree. I'm sure a majority of users HAVE made the switch from BW to SC2.
I know many don't agree with me, this is just my opinion, I agree with Blizzard for removing BW or taking steps to remove it from the Pro-Gaming scene not only in korea but the rest of the world too.
Times are changing folks.
Lol, you think that just because Blizzard wants to see SC2 develop, it will? Maybe SC2 will develop, maybe not, but Blizzard hardly has any say in that. The fans do. And right now, I'm sure most of us are either: A. Pissed as hell about them trying to kill off the BW scene B. Pissed as hell at Gom's $20 charge on streams.
And why keep playing the original? Why not? Why should we play the new one? Should we stop playing Melee for Brawl? Stop SF2 for SF4? Stop CS 1.6 because Source is out? No, we don't. Some of us prefer not to fall into that idiotic mindset of "new is better because it's new" or "new is better because it's shinier." Not saying that's you necessarily, but I find that mindset stupid. And if Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting their customers, well, they better remember that BW players ARE their customers. They also need to realize that charging people for a stream of GOM is not benefiting them.
Times are changing is completely irrelevant as to whether it's for better or for worse. Ever heard of conservatism? Maybe of Edmund Burke who stated that times shouldn't change to fast, but rather in small increments? Yeah, maybe we shouldn't completely trash the product that produced such an amazing scene, allowed for the creation of a website known as Teamliquid, and provides certain people their livelihood in South Korea just because "times are changing folks."
I have sent them a very polite email regarding the issue but I would be surprise if the respond.
Yea... Thanks though. I think with enough voice we can make an impact. If we can't muster enough support, then it will show them how small we really are -_-;
Unfortunately the impact of polite email complaints is minuscule compared to the almighty dollar.
Its just dumb... SC2 has such a big scene in Europe. The ESL has taken SC2 as one of their games. The MLS has also added SC2 ( The US ). Anywhere else in the world plays SC1 as much as Korea? No... But the pro's are always coming from Korea. Every Blizzcon and WCG is won by the koreans in SC1. Then no one in Korea wants to play SC2... its just a very big controversy I believe. Blizzard just wants everyone to move to SC2... what a dirty way to promote... :S
All the pro blizzard posters are failing to truly recognise what Kespa has done for the game.
Think of it as a pie, blizzard wants a slice of that pie just because they sold the fruits to kespa. Kespa is the one who baked the pie. Who the is blizzard to say how they use the fruits, by buying the game you get rights as a customer to use it.
People make billions literally billions through the internet, are we all paying a fee to the guy who invented the internet?
The guy who invented basketball in the 20th century, does NBA pay him massive fees? does he threaten to shut down the NBA (i think hes dead now tho).
Its ungrateful especially because BW only continued to sell thanks to Kespa for over 12 years.
The pro leagues, the corporate teams, none of it without kespa. They weren't thieving anything, the only reason they asked MBC and OGN to pay for broadcast rights to PL is because they spend heaps of money maintaining the teams.
On September 01 2010 20:21 Rekrul wrote: gotta love a thread full of misinformed idiots who all think they know whats going on babbling amongst eachother!
So why dont you share some light on the situation.
On September 03 2010 09:57 kyrshiro wrote: It's about time that Blizzard is putting their foot down with the BW scene in Korea.
Blizzard put a-lot of hard work into SC2 and its natural for them to want to see the game progress in the E-Sports scene. People playing BW in tournaments now is like watching people play Halo 1, instead of Halo 3?
Why keep playing the original when the new is out, sure people can keep playing BW without any restriction. But when companies like KeSPA/MBC are benefiting through sponsorship, viewer ship and mass media coverage. Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting best serves themselves and their customers even if many don't agree. I'm sure a majority of users HAVE made the switch from BW to SC2.
I know many don't agree with me, this is just my opinion, I agree with Blizzard for removing BW or taking steps to remove it from the Pro-Gaming scene not only in korea but the rest of the world too.
Times are changing folks.
how can you put so much nonsense in just one post?
I am a BW fan and I still from time to time enjoy to play it and I love all the korean leagues. These things belong to the bw scene and now some kids like you walk in with no appreciation for this beauty and claim that it all must go and be replaced by WHAT YOU LIKE. What's your problem? Why are so many people so self-centred and intrusive, when in fact sc2 could be developed in a natural way and then compete with bw for the fan base on an even footing or develop as two totally independent scenes. Not by destroying what's dear to a lot of people and then artificially fill in the created vacuum with something else and trying to force us to like it as we did the previous.
Let it die if it's old and tired, but do not try to rape and kill it.
Blizzard was such a great company it was not even funny... And now...damn, I so regret that they werent officially accused of plagiarism by Games Workshop (warcraft case). I know that they would probably won the case, but that would make them much less arogant. Than would be a shit talk about IP...
On September 03 2010 09:57 kyrshiro wrote: It's about time that Blizzard is putting their foot down with the BW scene in Korea.
Blizzard put a-lot of hard work into SC2 and its natural for them to want to see the game progress in the E-Sports scene. People playing BW in tournaments now is like watching people play Halo 1, instead of Halo 3?
Why keep playing the original when the new is out, sure people can keep playing BW without any restriction. But when companies like KeSPA/MBC are benefiting through sponsorship, viewer ship and mass media coverage. Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting best serves themselves and their customers even if many don't agree. I'm sure a majority of users HAVE made the switch from BW to SC2.
I know many don't agree with me, this is just my opinion, I agree with Blizzard for removing BW or taking steps to remove it from the Pro-Gaming scene not only in korea but the rest of the world too.
Blizzard has only one interest, money. Nothing wrong with that, but I won't give them a cent. Not for SC2, not for WoW, not for anything just because I don't like the face of the company anymore. I am BW for as long as the game live because that game is awesome and if BW should die I either quit (watching) E-Sports or find something from a company I like. I dont give a shit about SC2.
On September 03 2010 09:57 kyrshiro wrote: It's about time that Blizzard is putting their foot down with the BW scene in Korea.
Blizzard put a-lot of hard work into SC2 and its natural for them to want to see the game progress in the E-Sports scene. People playing BW in tournaments now is like watching people play Halo 1, instead of Halo 3?
Why keep playing the original when the new is out, sure people can keep playing BW without any restriction. But when companies like KeSPA/MBC are benefiting through sponsorship, viewer ship and mass media coverage. Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting best serves themselves and their customers even if many don't agree. I'm sure a majority of users HAVE made the switch from BW to SC2.
I know many don't agree with me, this is just my opinion, I agree with Blizzard for removing BW or taking steps to remove it from the Pro-Gaming scene not only in korea but the rest of the world too.
Times are changing folks.
You cannot be serious. Even as someone who would benefit from SC2 replacing SC1 (as I play and like SC2), this is just ridiculous.
Blizzard spend alot of time and money developing a game, and now they want a slice of the pie. Quite frankly, I can't believe they let a foreign entity take control of their intellectual property for so long, without garnering any profits of their own. If KESPA and co. are too proud/greedy to negotiate a compromise, that is their own failing. Perhaps Gretech's terms are too harsh, but I doubt it. Wouldn't Gretech benefit from the continuation of the leagues if a compromise were reached?
I feel sorry for the fans, but this is the way capitalism works. There's no such thing as a free lunch, as they say.
On September 03 2010 22:04 shiftY803 wrote: I feel sorry for the fans, but this is the way capitalism works. There's no such thing as a free lunch, as they say.
No, this is how monopolies and bullshit intellectual property laws work by creating artificial scarcity. The "lunch" is already paid for by the companies that sponsor the progaming teams; it's not costing Blizzard/Gretech anything.
Capitalism would be that Blizzard/Gretech run their SC2 leagues without interfering with the BW scene, and attract players/viewers/sponsors solely on merit of the entertainment value they provide.
Nothing is definite. Kespa seems to have things headed to court (which has sided with them in the past?) Without proleague, sponsors will have less reason to keep their teams funded. OSL/MSL could continue without a team structure, but it'd be several very large steps backwards.
Atleast if the korean bw scene dies i can finally stop playing bw but its so awesome to wake up and watch some koreans play bw and tbh i want this for the rest of my life its never gonna get boring nothing intrested me as much as bw did.
On September 03 2010 09:57 kyrshiro wrote: It's about time that Blizzard is putting their foot down with the BW scene in Korea.
Blizzard put a-lot of hard work into SC2 and its natural for them to want to see the game progress in the E-Sports scene. People playing BW in tournaments now is like watching people play Halo 1, instead of Halo 3?
Why keep playing the original when the new is out, sure people can keep playing BW without any restriction. But when companies like KeSPA/MBC are benefiting through sponsorship, viewer ship and mass media coverage. Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting best serves themselves and their customers even if many don't agree. I'm sure a majority of users HAVE made the switch from BW to SC2.
I know many don't agree with me, this is just my opinion, I agree with Blizzard for removing BW or taking steps to remove it from the Pro-Gaming scene not only in korea but the rest of the world too.
Times are changing folks.
The hell us wrong with you?
Really who are you tell what other people should play? Want my opinion?
SC2 sucks, I still havent bought it and I have no plans to. In contrast I played about 30 games of BW today. Why? BW IS THE BETTER GAME. I enjoy watching it and playing it. I don't know how putting an AXE to the BW scene is benefiting customers but it isn't.
God your post makes me so angry I can't post coherently. Ahhh....
Blizzard put 0 effort into creating e-sports, it's all been the KeSPA (which is made up of all the teams that started this before they formalized KeSPA). By giving GOM the reigns, they've killed Proleague, and without a team league there will be no salaried players. It's just every man for himself in the individual leagues, and only the winners will make any money. You can't have a professional sport if only the top 5 players make enough money to quit their day job.
On September 04 2010 01:08 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard put 0 effort into creating e-sports, it's all been the KeSPA (which is made up of all the teams that started this before they formalized KeSPA). By giving GOM the reigns, they've killed Proleague, and without a team league there will be no salaried players. It's just every man for himself in the individual leagues, and only the winners will make any money. You can't have a professional sport if only the top 5 players make enough money to quit their day job.
Exactly.
Its not the game that is the issue here, obviously the game belongs to blizzard, but how can people justify that blizzard deserves a piece of the pie when they had no part in building it up.
Kespa built it from the ground up, salaried teams and players, operated a proloeague with no support from blizzard. Blizz waits 10 years until its all built up, steps in and tries to wipe them away.
Blizz dont care about e-sports, they just want more money. E-sports is just a way for them to sell more copies.
I say we go to blizzard's SC2 forums, and complain about how they are being complete and utterly selfish regarding this, and that they should just stop trying to force people to buy SC2 - by stopping E-Sports, as that will not gain them anything, just peoples hatred
On September 04 2010 01:08 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard put 0 effort into creating e-sports, it's all been the KeSPA (which is made up of all the teams that started this before they formalized KeSPA). By giving GOM the reigns, they've killed Proleague, and without a team league there will be no salaried players. It's just every man for himself in the individual leagues, and only the winners will make any money. You can't have a professional sport if only the top 5 players make enough money to quit their day job.
Exactly.
Its not the game that is the issue here, obviously the game belongs to blizzard, but how can people justify that blizzard deserves a piece of the pie when they had no part in building it up.
Kespa built it from the ground up, salaried teams and players, operated a proloeague with no support from blizzard. Blizz waits 10 years until its all built up, steps in and tries to wipe them away.
Blizz dont care about e-sports, they just want more money. E-sports is just a way for them to sell more copies.
>.> ...
Blizzard balanced the game, they kept B-net up for how many years? They kept making map of the week to keep people interested. They made a map editor to let people create their own maps and scenarios. Do you think esport would even appear if blizzard didn't do all those?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
If you don't believe blizzard should get any credit for e-sport, then you also believe that Broadway show screenplay writers shouldn't get any credit when someone performs their play. Your reasoning is: "No one is paying Shakespeare, why should anyone give an ass about you?"
On September 04 2010 01:08 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard put 0 effort into creating e-sports, it's all been the KeSPA (which is made up of all the teams that started this before they formalized KeSPA). By giving GOM the reigns, they've killed Proleague, and without a team league there will be no salaried players. It's just every man for himself in the individual leagues, and only the winners will make any money. You can't have a professional sport if only the top 5 players make enough money to quit their day job.
Exactly.
Its not the game that is the issue here, obviously the game belongs to blizzard, but how can people justify that blizzard deserves a piece of the pie when they had no part in building it up.
Kespa built it from the ground up, salaried teams and players, operated a proloeague with no support from blizzard. Blizz waits 10 years until its all built up, steps in and tries to wipe them away.
Blizz dont care about e-sports, they just want more money. E-sports is just a way for them to sell more copies.
>.> ...
Blizzard balanced the game, they kept B-net up for how many years? They kept making map of the week to keep people interested. They made a map editor to let people create their own maps and scenarios. Do you think esport would even appear if blizzard didn't do all those?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
If you don't believe blizzard should get any credit for e-sport, then you also believe that Broadway show screenplay writers shouldn't get any credit when someone performs their play. Your reasoning is: "No one is paying Shakespeare, why should anyone give an ass about you?"
Of course Blizzard should get some credit and recognition for E-Sports. But do you think the correct way to do that is to shut down one the most popular E-Sports league in the world? No! That's not going to make them respect Blizzard for what they have done, nor will it make them go and watch any SC2 E-sports. It will just make them pissed off.
On September 04 2010 01:08 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard put 0 effort into creating e-sports, it's all been the KeSPA (which is made up of all the teams that started this before they formalized KeSPA). By giving GOM the reigns, they've killed Proleague, and without a team league there will be no salaried players. It's just every man for himself in the individual leagues, and only the winners will make any money. You can't have a professional sport if only the top 5 players make enough money to quit their day job.
Exactly.
Its not the game that is the issue here, obviously the game belongs to blizzard, but how can people justify that blizzard deserves a piece of the pie when they had no part in building it up.
Kespa built it from the ground up, salaried teams and players, operated a proloeague with no support from blizzard. Blizz waits 10 years until its all built up, steps in and tries to wipe them away.
Blizz dont care about e-sports, they just want more money. E-sports is just a way for them to sell more copies.
>.> ...
Blizzard balanced the game, they kept B-net up for how many years? They kept making map of the week to keep people interested. They made a map editor to let people create their own maps and scenarios. Do you think esport would even appear if blizzard didn't do all those?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
If you don't believe blizzard should get any credit for e-sport, then you also believe that Broadway show screenplay writers shouldn't get any credit when someone performs their play. Your reasoning is: "No one is paying Shakespeare, why should anyone give an ass about you?"
Of course Blizzard should get some credit and recognition for E-Sports. But do you think the correct way to do that is to shut down one the most popular E-Sports league in the world? No! That's not going to make them respect Blizzard for what they have done, nor will it make them go and watch any SC2 E-sports. It will just make them pissed off.
If PL shuts down then its Kespa's fault for failing to see the importance of their negotiations with blizzard. They went over their heads, when they thought they held all the cards or when they thought Blizzard's IP didn't exist.
Blizzard probably offered the same deal to Kespa as they offered to GOM. Sadly Kespa refuse to be moderated in any way, even now they are saying they rather go down and disband than operate under moderation.
They had their chance to deal with Blizzard who didn't want a piece of pie. Now they have to deal with GOM who wants the entire pie.
On September 04 2010 01:08 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard put 0 effort into creating e-sports, it's all been the KeSPA (which is made up of all the teams that started this before they formalized KeSPA). By giving GOM the reigns, they've killed Proleague, and without a team league there will be no salaried players. It's just every man for himself in the individual leagues, and only the winners will make any money. You can't have a professional sport if only the top 5 players make enough money to quit their day job.
Exactly.
Its not the game that is the issue here, obviously the game belongs to blizzard, but how can people justify that blizzard deserves a piece of the pie when they had no part in building it up.
Kespa built it from the ground up, salaried teams and players, operated a proloeague with no support from blizzard. Blizz waits 10 years until its all built up, steps in and tries to wipe them away.
Blizz dont care about e-sports, they just want more money. E-sports is just a way for them to sell more copies.
>.> ...
Blizzard balanced the game, they kept B-net up for how many years? They kept making map of the week to keep people interested. They made a map editor to let people create their own maps and scenarios. Do you think esport would even appear if blizzard didn't do all those?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
If you don't believe blizzard should get any credit for e-sport, then you also believe that Broadway show screenplay writers shouldn't get any credit when someone performs their play. Your reasoning is: "No one is paying Shakespeare, why should anyone give an ass about you?"
Blizzard balanced the game? Since when? The mapmakers balanced the game. Try playing SC on lost temple. Terran win most of the time.
Blizzard basically sees E-sports as another way to generate more revenue. A supplement. Kinda like how newspapers supplement their advertising revenue by charging for the paper. Eventually, they will want to make Bnet the Facebook of gaming, which has the potential to generate large amounts of steady income. KESPA stands in their way.
On September 04 2010 01:08 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard put 0 effort into creating e-sports, it's all been the KeSPA (which is made up of all the teams that started this before they formalized KeSPA). By giving GOM the reigns, they've killed Proleague, and without a team league there will be no salaried players. It's just every man for himself in the individual leagues, and only the winners will make any money. You can't have a professional sport if only the top 5 players make enough money to quit their day job.
Exactly.
Its not the game that is the issue here, obviously the game belongs to blizzard, but how can people justify that blizzard deserves a piece of the pie when they had no part in building it up.
Kespa built it from the ground up, salaried teams and players, operated a proloeague with no support from blizzard. Blizz waits 10 years until its all built up, steps in and tries to wipe them away.
Blizz dont care about e-sports, they just want more money. E-sports is just a way for them to sell more copies.
>.> ... Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were just some Blizzard plant or REALLY STUPID to be claiming that. You clearly have no knowledge of how businesses work if you claim "They don't want more money".
On September 04 2010 01:08 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard put 0 effort into creating e-sports, it's all been the KeSPA (which is made up of all the teams that started this before they formalized KeSPA). By giving GOM the reigns, they've killed Proleague, and without a team league there will be no salaried players. It's just every man for himself in the individual leagues, and only the winners will make any money. You can't have a professional sport if only the top 5 players make enough money to quit their day job.
Exactly.
Its not the game that is the issue here, obviously the game belongs to blizzard, but how can people justify that blizzard deserves a piece of the pie when they had no part in building it up.
Kespa built it from the ground up, salaried teams and players, operated a proloeague with no support from blizzard. Blizz waits 10 years until its all built up, steps in and tries to wipe them away.
Blizz dont care about e-sports, they just want more money. E-sports is just a way for them to sell more copies.
>.> ...
Blizzard balanced the game, they kept B-net up for how many years? They kept making map of the week to keep people interested. They made a map editor to let people create their own maps and scenarios. Do you think esport would even appear if blizzard didn't do all those?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
If you don't believe blizzard should get any credit for e-sport, then you also believe that Broadway show screenplay writers shouldn't get any credit when someone performs their play. Your reasoning is: "No one is paying Shakespeare, why should anyone give an ass about you?"
Blizzard balanced the game? Since when? The mapmakers balanced the game. Try playing SC on lost temple. Terran win most of the time.
Blizzard basically sees E-sports as another way to generate more revenue. A supplement. Kinda like how newspapers supplement their advertising revenue by charging for the paper. Eventually, they will want to make Bnet the Facebook of gaming, which has the potential to generate large amounts of steady income. KESPA stands in their way.
Since Broodwar and balance patches. Try playing sc v 1.0 without broodwar or patches and see how balanced things are.
Well Kespa is not really in the way, because they are on the verge of disbanding. Also, it doesn't really matter what Blizzard sees. No one really cares about the e-sport, the only reason people sponsor anything is so they can pitch their product to the audience but who cares, everyone benefits in the end. If blizzard becomes an official sponsor of Kespa or whatsnot, then they have incentive to make their game better and listen to the request of fans and kespa for better gaming experience and competitiveness yaddi yadda.
If you cut blizzard out of the picture, then they don't care about you. They won't even bother negotiating with you. It might be too late already but Kespa really needs to learn to pick their battles. Some battles, its more beneficial if you just lose some face and give in.
On September 04 2010 01:08 Zzoram wrote: Blizzard put 0 effort into creating e-sports, it's all been the KeSPA (which is made up of all the teams that started this before they formalized KeSPA). By giving GOM the reigns, they've killed Proleague, and without a team league there will be no salaried players. It's just every man for himself in the individual leagues, and only the winners will make any money. You can't have a professional sport if only the top 5 players make enough money to quit their day job.
Exactly.
Its not the game that is the issue here, obviously the game belongs to blizzard, but how can people justify that blizzard deserves a piece of the pie when they had no part in building it up.
Kespa built it from the ground up, salaried teams and players, operated a proloeague with no support from blizzard. Blizz waits 10 years until its all built up, steps in and tries to wipe them away.
Blizz dont care about e-sports, they just want more money. E-sports is just a way for them to sell more copies.
>.> ... Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were just some Blizzard plant or REALLY STUPID to be claiming that. You clearly have no knowledge of how businesses work if you claim "They don't want more money".
On the contrary, its called investment. They'll lose money in the short run, in hopes for a greater return in the long run. So at this moment, "they don't want more money" in context of Korea e-sport/pro-gaming scene, instead they want "control".
On September 03 2010 09:57 kyrshiro wrote: It's about time that Blizzard is putting their foot down with the BW scene in Korea.
Blizzard put a-lot of hard work into SC2 and its natural for them to want to see the game progress in the E-Sports scene. People playing BW in tournaments now is like watching people play Halo 1, instead of Halo 3?
Why keep playing the original when the new is out, sure people can keep playing BW without any restriction. But when companies like KeSPA/MBC are benefiting through sponsorship, viewer ship and mass media coverage. Blizzard needs to make sure their company is benefiting best serves themselves and their customers even if many don't agree. I'm sure a majority of users HAVE made the switch from BW to SC2.
I know many don't agree with me, this is just my opinion, I agree with Blizzard for removing BW or taking steps to remove it from the Pro-Gaming scene not only in korea but the rest of the world too.
Times are changing folks.
The hell us wrong with you?
Really who are you tell what other people should play? Want my opinion?
SC2 sucks, I still havent bought it and I have no plans to. In contrast I played about 30 games of BW today. Why? BW IS THE BETTER GAME. I enjoy watching it and playing it. I don't know how putting an AXE to the BW scene is benefiting customers but it isn't.
God your post makes me so angry I can't post coherently. Ahhh....
i completley agree... kyrshiro- you are on drugs.
you cant force people to switch. make a brilliant game and let people switch out of choice. forcing sc2 down peoples throats is gonna kill both games...
at the end of the day its is a GAME. people play and watch it because the ENJOY it.
it all comes down to personal preference.. some people are gonna like sc2 better, others will love bw no matter what (me haha). you shouldnt force pros to give up their careers and start anew - especially with no security and steady salary like how Kespa offered.
and blizzard should respect their own classic (bw) instead of trying to kill it and replace it. USE IT AS A TOOL TO PROMOTE SC2 GODDAMMIT!
im fine with watching a 30 second add about sc2 or gsl promotions right before a proleague game starts... blizz, gretech, kespa, gom, ogn should all support STARCRAFT and ESPORTS as a whole.
not continue with this bullshit politics.
anyway, my point is you, nor blizzard has any right to stop me from playing bw and switch into sc2. so why should they get to stop the pros from entertaining us fans?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
T.T You guys are making me sad, this is pretty simple. You want to make a e-sport/pro-gaming scene for your game, but you don't want to spend money or over-extend yourself so what do you? Go out, make a contract with the people who already made a pro-gaming scene with your game, and direct them to go towards your goal. You don't even need to take money from them, because they are basically accomplishing your goals for you. In fact, the people making the pro-gaming scene for you games can demand things like "I want a lan version of your game", "I want you to pay for the tournaments that we are going to host"... etc
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
T.T You guys are making me sad, this is pretty simple. You want to make a e-sport/pro-gaming scene for your game, but you don't want to spend money or over-extend yourself so what do you? Go out, make a contract with the people who already made a pro-gaming scene with your game, and direct them to go towards your goal. You don't even need to take money from them, because they are basically accomplishing your goals for you.
And you are making me sad. Blizzard don't want money, a cold day in hell plz before I believe that.
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
T.T You guys are making me sad, this is pretty simple. You want to make a e-sport/pro-gaming scene for your game, but you don't want to spend money or over-extend yourself so what do you? Go out, make a contract with the people who already made a pro-gaming scene with your game, and direct them to go towards your goal. You don't even need to take money from them, because they are basically accomplishing your goals for you.
lol "Blizzard has enough money"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yeah. Right. Someone understood how the world is working.
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
T.T You guys are making me sad, this is pretty simple. You want to make a e-sport/pro-gaming scene for your game, but you don't want to spend money or over-extend yourself so what do you? Go out, make a contract with the people who already made a pro-gaming scene with your game, and direct them to go towards your goal. You don't even need to take money from them, because they are basically accomplishing your goals for you.
And you are making me sad. Blizzard don't want money, a cold day in hell plz before I believe that.
If money is their priority, then they would of accepted Kespa's original offer of giving them just money. Instead, they opted for control and moderation such as Kespa needs permission from blizzard to host certain tournaments which Kespa does not like and rejects.
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
This really is the dumbest.
Since Broodwar and balance patches. Try playing sc v 1.0 without broodwar or patches and see how balanced things are.
All credit to them for that of course. But keep in mind the last balance patch was released 9 years ago. All balance changes since then have come from players and mapmakers (which conveniently is hindered in SC2 since they control what maps are to be played)
If money is their priority, then they would of accepted Kespa's original offer of giving them just money. Instead, they opted for control and moderation such as Kespa needs permission from blizzard to host certain tournaments which Kespa does not like and rejects.
control leads to money. You are delusional if you don't think that's the end goal. REGARDLESS them wanting to assert control over something they did not help in building up is also not super noble seeming to me. They made the game which is awesome, but the whole structure of professional BW e-sports was built up with a lot of sacrifice from people who are not Blizzard. I don't really care what their motivation is, they are moving to tear that structure down.
So best case scenario, MBC and KeSPA continue to have MSL and Proleague without a contract, Gretech attempts to file a lawsuit, and the Korean court finds in favor of MBC and KeSPA.
I don't get why Blizzard is doing this, they were already making royalties off MBC, Proleague, OGN, and such right? So is it because they're control freaks or because they want to see Brood War die so they can make even more money off SC2? Like, idk, I think Brood War has the potential to last another decade and I'm sure the royalties would probably generate enough revenue to justify not pushing SC2 in South Korea especially with its success in the rest of the world.
Not certain but I'm pretty sure a level-headed judge would find in favor of MBC and KeSPA considering the fact that Blizzard didn't seem to give a shit about broadcasting rights for the past twelve years. Beyond that, I can't help but think that this deal helps the American company of Activision/Blizzard yet hurts numerous South Korean companies (MBC, KeSPA, the advertising power of the companies who sponsor the pro teams, etc). It would only make sense for a South Korean court to find in favor of MBC/KeSPA.
I really don't wanna see Brood War die, SC2 is fun but it's so damn boring to watch...
wouldn't cost much from blizzard's enormous marketing budget to pay people (most likely their own employees) to come here to smear bw. they spent millions in korea and the result has not been fruitful.
i have been absolutely disgusted at the posts in this forum lately. where did all these anti-bw come from? i would think that sc2 gamers would be playing their own game, being pissed at gom, or minding their own business.
Blizzard and Kespa could make a ton of money with SC2 if they would just work together und share the money. That would be enough for each.
The only thing i cant hear anymore is that BW is the better game. No one can judge this for all. BW is an amazing game but it wasnt from the start. It took many years and to compare the game we should wait a fair amount of time.
I really enjoy watching SC2 games as i do with BW games.
But as i am speaking only for me i say that i wont play BW anymore. SC2 is more fun for me. Tried BW last week but i just cant stand the 640x480 resolution anymore.
On September 04 2010 06:59 _awake_ wrote: wouldn't cost much from blizzard's enormous marketing budget to pay people (most likely their own employees) to come here to smear bw. they spent millions in korea and the result has not been fruitful.
i have been absolutely disgusted at the posts in this forum lately. where did all these anti-bw come from? i would think that sc2 gamers would be playing their own game, being pissed at gom, or minding their own business.
And the Brood War forum slowly loses its grip on reality, the next knock on your door will probably be Dustin Browder, ready to drive his shiny dome into your sternum for not supporting SC2
The only thing i cant hear anymore is that BW is the better game. No one can judge this for all.
And Kespa should be allowed to judge for themselves, and play BW if that's what they want to do.
It took many years and to compare the game we should wait a fair amount of time.
I would agree that its unfair to compare a game with a decade of metagame behind it to something that still has two expansions due. But that doesn't mean I am obliged to treat it equally until it has a chance to catch up. I'll treat it equally when it catches up. (which it should someday)
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
Since Broodwar and balance patches. Try playing sc v 1.0 without broodwar or patches and see how balanced things are.
All credit to them for that of course. But keep in mind the last balance patch was released 9 years ago. All balance changes since then have come from players and mapmakers (which conveniently is hindered in SC2 since they control what maps are to be played)
If money is their priority, then they would of accepted Kespa's original offer of giving them just money. Instead, they opted for control and moderation such as Kespa needs permission from blizzard to host certain tournaments which Kespa does not like and rejects.
control leads to money. You are delusional if you don't think that's the end goal. REGARDLESS them wanting to assert control over something they did not help in building up is also not super noble seeming to me. They made the game which is awesome, but the whole structure of professional BW e-sports was built up with a lot of sacrifice from people who are not Blizzard. I don't really care what their motivation is, they are moving to tear that structure down.
I think their end-goal is have a global awareness of e-sport with their game, thus they want GOMTV to continue with English Commentators, amateur leagues, leagues that doesn't require a pro-gaming license to participate. I also think blizzard is willing to sacrifice royalties and a significant amount of money to create partners like Gretech to achieve this.
But hey I might be wrong, but it sounds more plausible than one you paint them: where Blizzard investors/employees sits on top of a pile of cash lighting their cigars with 100 dollar bills.
I'll use the pie analogy again. Kespa bakes pie, they use Blizzard's pan to bake them. Blizzard wants to have some say in what kind of pie they bake with their pan, Kespa says no.. so blizzard gave the pan to Gretech.
I won't add in the fact that Kespa was using the pan without consent since blizzard isn't suing them for that but It all comes down to: Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
On September 04 2010 06:12 zenMaster wrote: FishForThought is either a troll or a Blizzard employee.
Ironically, this is coming from someone who just posted a one liner that has no relevance to this topic.
Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
In a Korean court they are likely to rule that Kespa's use of the pan they bought from blizzard represents "fair use".
P.S. If James Naismith's heir came out with basketball 2.0, should they be able to tell everyone to stop playing regular basketball?
P.S. If James Naismith's heir came out with basketball 2.0, should they be able to tell everyone to stop playing regular basketball?
Except Starcraft is an intellectual property. You bought the product to be able to play. Basketball is neither an intellectual property nor do you have to pay to be able to play.
Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
In a Korean court they are likely to rule that Kespa's use of the pan they bought from blizzard represents "fair use".
P.S. If James Naismith's heir came out with basketball 2.0, should they be able to tell everyone to stop playing regular basketball?
I think Kespa has better chance to win the lawsuit in Korea. But the thing is this lawsuit can last for years. I believe during these several years, Kespa can not organize any matches, including Proleague. Then that situation is the same as BW died.
Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
In a Korean court they are likely to rule that Kespa's use of the pan they bought from blizzard represents "fair use".
P.S. If James Naismith's heir came out with basketball 2.0, should they be able to tell everyone to stop playing regular basketball?
I think Kespa has better chance to win the lawsuit in Korea. But the thing is this lawsuit can last for years. I believe during these several years, Kespa can not organize any matches, including Proleague. Then that situation is the same as BW died.
yes but under such a situation where brood war died a natural death(sort of) we would accept it(sort of).
Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
In a Korean court they are likely to rule that Kespa's use of the pan they bought from blizzard represents "fair use".
P.S. If James Naismith's heir came out with basketball 2.0, should they be able to tell everyone to stop playing regular basketball?
I think Kespa has better chance to win the lawsuit in Korea. But the thing is this lawsuit can last for years. I believe during these several years, Kespa can not organize any matches, including Proleague. Then that situation is the same as BW died.
Actually while a lawsuit is going on they could continue operating since there is no official word for them to stop. The real problem is that sponsors might not want to spend so much money on something with an uncertain future which could go away tomorrow, or a league with the stigma of being 'shady' or 'illegal'.
I'm hoping for swift binding arbitration. I think Kespa will deal pragmatically with any decision handed down by the court. But as long as they think they'll win in court they won't deal seriously with gretech.
Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
In a Korean court they are likely to rule that Kespa's use of the pan they bought from blizzard represents "fair use".
P.S. If James Naismith's heir came out with basketball 2.0, should they be able to tell everyone to stop playing regular basketball?
I think Kespa has better chance to win the lawsuit in Korea. But the thing is this lawsuit can last for years. I believe during these several years, Kespa can not organize any matches, including Proleague. Then that situation is the same as BW died.
Actually while a lawsuit is going on they could continue operating since there is no official word for them to stop. The real problem is that sponsors might not want to spend so much money on something with an uncertain future which could go away tomorrow, or a league with the stigma of being 'shady' or 'illegal'.
Exactly, the court has to actually order KeSPA not to continue with operations at the onset of the trial and it's unlikely they'd do that. The lawsuit would likely drag on and buy time for at least a few more seasons of Proleague and the MSL.
Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
In a Korean court they are likely to rule that Kespa's use of the pan they bought from blizzard represents "fair use".
P.S. If James Naismith's heir came out with basketball 2.0, should they be able to tell everyone to stop playing regular basketball?
I think Kespa has better chance to win the lawsuit in Korea. But the thing is this lawsuit can last for years. I believe during these several years, Kespa can not organize any matches, including Proleague. Then that situation is the same as BW died.
Actually while a lawsuit is going on they could continue operating since there is no official word for them to stop. The real problem is that sponsors might not want to spend so much money on something with an uncertain future which could go away tomorrow, or a league with the stigma of being 'shady' or 'illegal'.
Thanks for the correction. Then it is still possible BW will survive.
Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
In a Korean court they are likely to rule that Kespa's use of the pan they bought from blizzard represents "fair use".
P.S. If James Naismith's heir came out with basketball 2.0, should they be able to tell everyone to stop playing regular basketball?
I think Kespa has better chance to win the lawsuit in Korea. But the thing is this lawsuit can last for years. I believe during these several years, Kespa can not organize any matches, including Proleague. Then that situation is the same as BW died.
Actually while a lawsuit is going on they could continue operating since there is no official word for them to stop. The real problem is that sponsors might not want to spend so much money on something with an uncertain future which could go away tomorrow, or a league with the stigma of being 'shady' or 'illegal'.
Exactly, the court has to actually order KeSPA not to continue with operations at the onset of the trial and it's unlikely they'd do that. The lawsuit would likely drag on and buy time for at least a few more seasons of Proleague and the MSL.
Why would they unlikely freeze all operations? Court battle would be between Gretech vs Kespa, both are domestic Korean companies, so there won't be any bias and one of them has a law binding contract that states that they get exclusive rights to broadcast the starcraft franchise. Also, Kespa being the non-profit organization, where would they get the money for a court battle?
I am not trying to crush your hopes, just being realistic here. :-/
Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
In a Korean court they are likely to rule that Kespa's use of the pan they bought from blizzard represents "fair use".
P.S. If James Naismith's heir came out with basketball 2.0, should they be able to tell everyone to stop playing regular basketball?
I think Kespa has better chance to win the lawsuit in Korea. But the thing is this lawsuit can last for years. I believe during these several years, Kespa can not organize any matches, including Proleague. Then that situation is the same as BW died.
Actually while a lawsuit is going on they could continue operating since there is no official word for them to stop. The real problem is that sponsors might not want to spend so much money on something with an uncertain future which could go away tomorrow, or a league with the stigma of being 'shady' or 'illegal'.
Exactly, the court has to actually order KeSPA not to continue with operations at the onset of the trial and it's unlikely they'd do that. The lawsuit would likely drag on and buy time for at least a few more seasons of Proleague and the MSL.
Why would they unlikely freeze all operations? Court battle would be between Gretech vs Kespa, both are domestic Korean companies, so there won't be any bias and one of them has a law binding contract that states that they get exclusive rights to broadcast the starcraft franchise. Also, Kespa being the non-profit organization, where would they get the money for a court battle?/
KeSPA is a non-profit. The companies that have an interest in it and are represented in its board of directors, however, are not.
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
T.T You guys are making me sad, this is pretty simple. You want to make a e-sport/pro-gaming scene for your game, but you don't want to spend money or over-extend yourself so what do you? Go out, make a contract with the people who already made a pro-gaming scene with your game, and direct them to go towards your goal. You don't even need to take money from them, because they are basically accomplishing your goals for you. In fact, the people making the pro-gaming scene for you games can demand things like "I want a lan version of your game", "I want you to pay for the tournaments that we are going to host"... etc
You sir are extremely lacking in intelligence. Blizzard not wanting money has to be the joke of the year............troll
On September 04 2010 12:15 moopie wrote: Actually while a lawsuit is going on they could continue operating since there is no official word for them to stop. The real problem is that sponsors might not want to spend so much money on something with an uncertain future which could go away tomorrow, or a league with the stigma of being 'shady' or 'illegal'.
Well it would be the same for the sponsors if KeSPA sold themselves to Blizzard/Gretech, since they wanted to be able to "re-negociate" the contracts each season. Basically be able to terminate BW whenever they felt like it.
On September 04 2010 11:04 gyth wrote: Someone invented basketball (his name was James Naismith), how is that not intellectual property?
Inventing something doesn't mean it's intellectual property. Intellectual property deals with trademarks, copyrights, patents, etc. Blizzard has the copyright and has trademarked some characters within Starcraft.
With your example of basketball as a game, the rules, balls and courts used in Naismith's time are all different now with no one governing body NBA, FIBA, EBA, Olympic Committee etc...
This is how basketball isn't an intellectual property.
On another note, why can't they all just hold hands and sing kumbaya already?!
On September 04 2010 11:04 gyth wrote: Someone invented basketball (his name was James Naismith), how is that not intellectual property?
Inventing something doesn't mean it's intellectual property. Intellectual property deals with trademarks, copyrights, patents, etc. Blizzard has the copyright and has trademarked some characters within Starcraft.
With your example of basketball as a game, the rules, balls and courts used in Naismith's time are all different now with no one governing body NBA, FIBA, EBA, Olympic Committee etc...
This is how basketball isn't an intellectual property.
On another note, why can't they all just hold hands and sing kumbaya already?!
Because Activision wants to bully their way to another revenue source. They've been trying to figure out how to make SC2 as obnoxious as WoW ever since they announced the game. Bnet 2.0, microtransactions, suing KESPA, 2 full priced expansions, it all adds up to a fanbase that is tired of its antics.
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
This really is the dumbest.
Since Broodwar and balance patches. Try playing sc v 1.0 without broodwar or patches and see how balanced things are.
All credit to them for that of course. But keep in mind the last balance patch was released 9 years ago. All balance changes since then have come from players and mapmakers (which conveniently is hindered in SC2 since they control what maps are to be played)
If money is their priority, then they would of accepted Kespa's original offer of giving them just money. Instead, they opted for control and moderation such as Kespa needs permission from blizzard to host certain tournaments which Kespa does not like and rejects.
control leads to money. You are delusional if you don't think that's the end goal. REGARDLESS them wanting to assert control over something they did not help in building up is also not super noble seeming to me. They made the game which is awesome, but the whole structure of professional BW e-sports was built up with a lot of sacrifice from people who are not Blizzard. I don't really care what their motivation is, they are moving to tear that structure down.
I think their end-goal is have a global awareness of e-sport with their game, thus they want GOMTV to continue with English Commentators, amateur leagues, leagues that doesn't require a pro-gaming license to participate. I also think blizzard is willing to sacrifice royalties and a significant amount of money to create partners like Gretech to achieve this.
But hey I might be wrong, but it sounds more plausible than one you paint them: where Blizzard investors/employees sits on top of a pile of cash lighting their cigars with 100 dollar bills.
I'll use the pie analogy again. Kespa bakes pie, they use Blizzard's pan to bake them. Blizzard wants to have some say in what kind of pie they bake with their pan, Kespa says no.. so blizzard gave the pan to Gretech.
I won't add in the fact that Kespa was using the pan without consent since blizzard isn't suing them for that but It all comes down to: Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
On September 04 2010 06:12 zenMaster wrote: FishForThought is either a troll or a Blizzard employee.
Ironically, this is coming from someone who just posted a one liner that has no relevance to this topic.
It stands to little surprise that your account is not only recent but largely vested in this topic making me suspect that I was correct and you ARE likely a Blizzard plant. That or just REALLY REALLY living in a fantasy world.
Your claim that they just desire the growth of e-sports is interesting considering they ARE TRYING TO KILL IT BY THIS VERY ACT. Especially the part where you claim they don't care about royalties since that seems to me what has been largely their ongoing issue! As for leagues that don't require pro-league license to operate. YEAH THAT SURE WORKS OUT for the credibility of your players. It really means a lot that you beat Joe Schmoe #2349273423. So NO, your idea is NOT more plausible. It hasn't been plausible the moment you suggested Blizzard doesn't care about making more money.
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
This really is the dumbest.
Since Broodwar and balance patches. Try playing sc v 1.0 without broodwar or patches and see how balanced things are.
All credit to them for that of course. But keep in mind the last balance patch was released 9 years ago. All balance changes since then have come from players and mapmakers (which conveniently is hindered in SC2 since they control what maps are to be played)
If money is their priority, then they would of accepted Kespa's original offer of giving them just money. Instead, they opted for control and moderation such as Kespa needs permission from blizzard to host certain tournaments which Kespa does not like and rejects.
control leads to money. You are delusional if you don't think that's the end goal. REGARDLESS them wanting to assert control over something they did not help in building up is also not super noble seeming to me. They made the game which is awesome, but the whole structure of professional BW e-sports was built up with a lot of sacrifice from people who are not Blizzard. I don't really care what their motivation is, they are moving to tear that structure down.
I think their end-goal is have a global awareness of e-sport with their game, thus they want GOMTV to continue with English Commentators, amateur leagues, leagues that doesn't require a pro-gaming license to participate. I also think blizzard is willing to sacrifice royalties and a significant amount of money to create partners like Gretech to achieve this.
But hey I might be wrong, but it sounds more plausible than one you paint them: where Blizzard investors/employees sits on top of a pile of cash lighting their cigars with 100 dollar bills.
I'll use the pie analogy again. Kespa bakes pie, they use Blizzard's pan to bake them. Blizzard wants to have some say in what kind of pie they bake with their pan, Kespa says no.. so blizzard gave the pan to Gretech.
I won't add in the fact that Kespa was using the pan without consent since blizzard isn't suing them for that but It all comes down to: Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
On September 04 2010 06:12 zenMaster wrote: FishForThought is either a troll or a Blizzard employee.
Ironically, this is coming from someone who just posted a one liner that has no relevance to this topic.
It stands to little surprise that your account is not only recent but largely vested in this topic making me suspect that I was correct and you ARE likely a Blizzard plant. That or just REALLY REALLY living in a fantasy world.
Your claim that they just desire the growth of e-sports is interesting considering they ARE TRYING TO KILL IT BY THIS VERY ACT. Especially the part where you claim they don't care about royalties since that seems to me what has been largely their ongoing issue! As for leagues that don't require pro-league license to operate. YEAH THAT SURE WORKS OUT for the credibility of your players. It really means a lot that you beat Joe Schmoe #2349273423. So NO, your idea is NOT more plausible. It hasn't been plausible the moment you suggested Blizzard doesn't care about making more money.
I find it funny that you gave no evidence or insight to why my claims are wrong. All you are doing is screaming "YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT!". What evidence do you have that esport won't survive without kespa? What claims do you have that they solely want more money considering that Kespa OFFERED TO PAY ROYALTIES to Blizzard which Blizzard reject because they prioritize CONTROL over cash.
Blizzard's negotiation failed with Kespa and they gave the contract to GOMTV.. and according to you this very act is "TRYING TO KILL ESPORT [it]"?. Blizzard is not even suing Kespa for exploiting their IP for the last 12 years, if someone is going to sue its going to be Gretech vs Kespa not Blizzard.
As for other comments.. do you need a FiFA license to play in the FIFA? Do you need a Tennis license to play Tennis in the French Open? Don't be stupid, pro-gaming license is only there to alienate people from participating in tournaments. If PL didn't have this pro-gaming license, more people would get the chance to compete. Its not about beating "Joe Schmoe#2349273423", its about whether giving "Joe Schmoe#2349273423" a chance to compete. I dunno about you, but I am getting tired of watching the same people play over and over again. How many times do we need to watch Flash vs Jaedong?
If BW is truly the e-sport game, then it doesn't matter if Kespa is there or not, people will still play it. Just like if there are no Tennis, or golf tournaments, people will still play Tennis and golf.
On September 05 2010 16:02 FishForThought wrote: Blizzard's negotiation failed with Kespa and they gave the contract to GOMTV.. and according to you this very act is "TRYING TO KILL ESPORT [it]"?. Blizzard is not even suing Kespa for exploiting their IP for the last 12 years, if someone is going to sue its going to be Gretech vs Kespa not Blizzard.
If it goes to court, Gretech will just be doing Blizzard's dirty work.
On September 05 2010 16:02 FishForThought wrote: As for other comments.. do you need a FiFA license to play in the FIFA? Do you need a Tennis license to play Tennis in the French Open? Don't be stupid, pro-gaming license is only there to alienate people from participating in tournaments. If PL didn't have this pro-gaming license, more people would get the chance to compete. Its not about beating "Joe Schmoe#2349273423", its about whether giving "Joe Schmoe#2349273423" a chance to compete. I dunno about you, but I am getting tired of watching the same people play over and over again. How many times do we need to watch Flash vs Jaedong?
The pro-gaming license was created to give progamers an important tax break on their tournament winnings, not to "alienate people." It was an important step in truly professionalizing the game, something that giving more people the chance to compete won't do, especially if the team structure is dissolved. Also, football and tennis are established sports while esports is not. It's rarely seen as a legitimate activity, and an officially recognized progaming license is one of the things that helps to overcome that view.
And who cares about Joe Schmoe? People complaining about Flash vs Jaedong have no interest in him, they simply want other top progamers in the finals -- certainly not some random gamer.
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
This really is the dumbest.
Since Broodwar and balance patches. Try playing sc v 1.0 without broodwar or patches and see how balanced things are.
All credit to them for that of course. But keep in mind the last balance patch was released 9 years ago. All balance changes since then have come from players and mapmakers (which conveniently is hindered in SC2 since they control what maps are to be played)
If money is their priority, then they would of accepted Kespa's original offer of giving them just money. Instead, they opted for control and moderation such as Kespa needs permission from blizzard to host certain tournaments which Kespa does not like and rejects.
control leads to money. You are delusional if you don't think that's the end goal. REGARDLESS them wanting to assert control over something they did not help in building up is also not super noble seeming to me. They made the game which is awesome, but the whole structure of professional BW e-sports was built up with a lot of sacrifice from people who are not Blizzard. I don't really care what their motivation is, they are moving to tear that structure down.
I think their end-goal is have a global awareness of e-sport with their game, thus they want GOMTV to continue with English Commentators, amateur leagues, leagues that doesn't require a pro-gaming license to participate. I also think blizzard is willing to sacrifice royalties and a significant amount of money to create partners like Gretech to achieve this.
But hey I might be wrong, but it sounds more plausible than one you paint them: where Blizzard investors/employees sits on top of a pile of cash lighting their cigars with 100 dollar bills.
I'll use the pie analogy again. Kespa bakes pie, they use Blizzard's pan to bake them. Blizzard wants to have some say in what kind of pie they bake with their pan, Kespa says no.. so blizzard gave the pan to Gretech.
I won't add in the fact that Kespa was using the pan without consent since blizzard isn't suing them for that but It all comes down to: Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
On September 04 2010 06:12 zenMaster wrote: FishForThought is either a troll or a Blizzard employee.
Ironically, this is coming from someone who just posted a one liner that has no relevance to this topic.
It stands to little surprise that your account is not only recent but largely vested in this topic making me suspect that I was correct and you ARE likely a Blizzard plant. That or just REALLY REALLY living in a fantasy world.
Your claim that they just desire the growth of e-sports is interesting considering they ARE TRYING TO KILL IT BY THIS VERY ACT. Especially the part where you claim they don't care about royalties since that seems to me what has been largely their ongoing issue! As for leagues that don't require pro-league license to operate. YEAH THAT SURE WORKS OUT for the credibility of your players. It really means a lot that you beat Joe Schmoe #2349273423. So NO, your idea is NOT more plausible. It hasn't been plausible the moment you suggested Blizzard doesn't care about making more money.
I find it funny that you gave no evidence or insight to why my claims are wrong. All you are doing is screaming "YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT!". What evidence do you have that esport won't survive without kespa? What claims do you have that they solely want more money considering that Kespa OFFERED TO PAY ROYALTIES to Blizzard which Blizzard reject because they prioritize CONTROL over cash.
Blizzard's negotiation failed with Kespa and they gave the contract to GOMTV.. and according to you this very act is "TRYING TO KILL ESPORT [it]"?. Blizzard is not even suing Kespa for exploiting their IP for the last 12 years, if someone is going to sue its going to be Gretech vs Kespa not Blizzard.
As for other comments.. do you need a FiFA license to play in the FIFA? Do you need a Tennis license to play Tennis in the French Open? Don't be stupid, pro-gaming license is only there to alienate people from participating in tournaments. If PL didn't have this pro-gaming license, more people would get the chance to compete. Its not about beating "Joe Schmoe#2349273423", its about whether giving "Joe Schmoe#2349273423" a chance to compete. I dunno about you, but I am getting tired of watching the same people play over and over again. How many times do we need to watch Flash vs Jaedong?
If BW is truly the e-sport game, then it doesn't matter if Kespa is there or not, people will still play it. Just like if there are no Tennis, or golf tournaments, people will still play Tennis and golf.
You actually made a few decent points there, but Flash vs Jaedong is the best vs the best, if you were really into broodwar you'd know that. Golf and Tennis have been exactly the same for long periods, with people like Woods and Federer.
Let Joe Schmoe enter courage and get his face stomped, there's much more stopping him from participating than a license, its a big separator called skill. Frankly, I don't want to watch D, C, or any other low level game in my esports tournament. I want the S-Class Flash vs Jaedong. It really bothers me that TL has become a place where so many people disrespect their roots. I mean honestly, how can this website actually have debates when someone, no matter who, threatens to destroy our beloved BW?
If it goes to court, Gretech will just be doing Blizzard's dirty work.
Have you thought for a second that if it goes to court it is because Gretech wants to fight for their own interest? Blizzard is not behind every unsolved crime in the world and blaming them for giving Gretech the contract after Kespa refused it isn't going to reverse time and give Kespa a second chance to accept the offer.
The pro-gaming license was created to give progamers an important tax break on their tournament winnings, not to "alienate people." It was an important step in truly professionalizing the game, something that giving more people the chance to compete won't do, especially if the team structure is dissolved. Also, football and tennis are established sports while esports is not. It's rarely seen as a legitimate activity, and an officially recognized progaming license is one of the things that helps to overcome that view.
So GomTV winnings have a higher tax rate than PL winnings? You'll have to give me a source to that. The license didn't really do anything to professionalize the game, if you earn your pro-gamer license you still pretty much can't participate in the leagues without a team sponsor and if you do get sponsor, you get your license for free. Basically, the whole professional scene is based on whether you are lucky enough to get scouted by the kespa teams.
You claim that BW is an esport thus, it should be treated like any other sport (free use and such) yet you admit that esport is not an "established sport" (so you need to keep pampering it). You need to make up your mind, if it is a sport, then regardless of Kespa's presence it will persist, if it is not a real sport then you have to accept that it is in blizzard's right to regulate it.
And who cares about Joe Schmoe? People complaining about Flash vs Jaedong have no interest in him, they simply want other top progamers in the finals -- certainly not some random gamer.
Joe Schmoe are the people on these forums that read strategies, practice every day, play in whatever tournament they can to improve themselves, only to find that they can never compete professionally or reach professional status, because the door to pro-gaming is only open to a select few that happens to be born in the right country and be at the right place at the right time.
Joe Schmoe are the people on these forums that read strategies, practice every day, play in whatever tournament they can to improve themselves, only to find that they can never compete professionally or reach professional status, because the door to pro-gaming is only open to a select few that happens to be born in the right country and be at the right place at the right time.
Wow this is typical BS. If you work hard and play by the rules, you can achieve many things. Joe Schmoe was probably the guy that was out partying late at night and selling drugs while everyone else was working hard playing Starcraft. Joe Schmoe cared more about buying the latest styles than about Starcraft. So Joe Schmoe will continue to suck at Starcraft.
Geez, nothing in this post makes any sense. The only 16 posts you have on TL are all about kespa vs gretech thing. I have strong faith that you are a blizzard or gretech guy.
If it goes to court, Gretech will just be doing Blizzard's dirty work.
Have you thought for a second that if it goes to court it is because Gretech wants to fight for their own interest? Blizzard is not behind every unsolved crime in the world and blaming them for giving Gretech the contract after Kespa refused it isn't going to reverse time and give Kespa a second chance to accept the offer.
The pro-gaming license was created to give progamers an important tax break on their tournament winnings, not to "alienate people." It was an important step in truly professionalizing the game, something that giving more people the chance to compete won't do, especially if the team structure is dissolved. Also, football and tennis are established sports while esports is not. It's rarely seen as a legitimate activity, and an officially recognized progaming license is one of the things that helps to overcome that view.
So GomTV winnings have a higher tax rate than PL winnings? You'll have to give me a source to that. The license didn't really do anything to professionalize the game, if you earn your pro-gamer license you still pretty much can't participate in the leagues without a team sponsor and if you do get sponsor, you get your license for free. Basically, the whole professional scene is based on whether you are lucky enough to get scouted by the kespa teams.
You claim that BW is an esport thus, it should be treated like any other sport (free use and such) yet you admit that esport is not an "established sport" (so you need to keep pampering it). You need to make up your mind, if it is a sport, then regardless of Kespa's presence it will persist, if it is not a real sport then you have to accept that it is in blizzard's right to regulate it.
And who cares about Joe Schmoe? People complaining about Flash vs Jaedong have no interest in him, they simply want other top progamers in the finals -- certainly not some random gamer.
Joe Schmoe are the people on these forums that read strategies, practice every day, play in whatever tournament they can to improve themselves, only to find that they can never compete professionally or reach professional status, because the door to pro-gaming is only open to a select few that happens to be born in the right country and be at the right place at the right time.
its hilarious how many people think this idiot is a blizzard plant. Like blizz/gretech have nothing better to do with their manpower then to waste it trying to convince netizens that they're really just nice guys maybe its just a moron that likes fellatin blizz, y'know?
On August 31 2010 20:01 Nesto wrote: I seem to miss the big problem there.
OGN has a contract right? so there will be another OSL.
MBC can still start a new MSL / Pro-league, without contract as always. The only thing MBC won't be able to do is showing SC2 games, since that's the only thing, which Blizzard/Gretech can deny them, or am I wrong here?
technically no .. they[blizzard] can still deny them because blizzard has already a company[gretech] that can do its "dirty work" in korea. they can go to court if MBC will still broadcast BW
hmm, but they broadcasted without contract for almost 10 years, why is that suddenly a problem?
Because Blizzard Entertainment merged with Activison and it turned into Activision Blizzard (where did entertainment go =(?)
On September 05 2010 19:34 TheAntZ wrote: its hilarious how many people think this idiot is a blizzard plant. Like blizz/gretech have nothing better to do with their manpower then to waste it trying to convince netizens that they're really just nice guys maybe its just a moron that likes fellatin blizz, y'know?
Its called viral marketing. They give these people small perks like a collector's edition or free WoW time and these people enter into influential communities to spread enough FUD until people take the FUD for fact.
On September 05 2010 16:02 FishForThought wrote: As for other comments.. do you need a FiFA license to play in the FIFA? Do you need a Tennis license to play Tennis in the French Open? Don't be stupid, pro-gaming license is only there to alienate people from participating in tournaments. If PL didn't have this pro-gaming license, more people would get the chance to compete. Its not about beating "Joe Schmoe#2349273423", its about whether giving "Joe Schmoe#2349273423" a chance to compete. I dunno about you, but I am getting tired of watching the same people play over and over again. How many times do we need to watch Flash vs Jaedong? If BW is truly the e-sport game, then it doesn't matter if Kespa is there or not, people will still play it. Just like if there are no Tennis, or golf tournaments, people will still play Tennis and golf.
I can speak about experience from my home BW community. For years it was quite strong. Enouth strong to get a money needed to send additional player to WCG. Enouth stong to create some good BW players. But not strong enouth to keep those players interested in farther developement. Thats all becouse the system was based on prize hunters and entusiasts, who never had guaranteed a profits from time invested to play. When they had to choose: job or play, school or play, university or play...they almoust always retired. Insured salary is the factor, that can keep those players interested in game/strategy developement, becouse it turns the entertaiment to job. Thats why e-sport needs ProLeague. Thats why we need teams like SKT T1, CJ Entus, Oz or KT. Thats why we need sponsors and organisations like KESPA, even if they are a bunch of idiots. Just look at BW play of "foreigners" and Koreans. "Foreigners" creativity is decent, but the play is nowere near as dynamic as those from pros.
On September 05 2010 18:04 numLoCK wrote: Let Joe Schmoe enter courage and get his face stomped, there's much more stopping him from participating than a license, its a big separator called skill. Frankly, I don't want to watch D, C, or any other low level game in my esports tournament. I want the S-Class Flash vs Jaedong. It really bothers me that TL has become a place where so many people disrespect their roots. I mean honestly, how can this website actually have debates when someone, no matter who, threatens to destroy our beloved BW?
i know right. all these people are quick to shout that the whole progaming scene has been ILLEGAL (we'll see about that in the Korean courts) without realizing that this is or was the core of TL for so many years.
On September 05 2010 18:04 numLoCK wrote: Let Joe Schmoe enter courage and get his face stomped, there's much more stopping him from participating than a license, its a big separator called skill. Frankly, I don't want to watch D, C, or any other low level game in my esports tournament. I want the S-Class Flash vs Jaedong. It really bothers me that TL has become a place where so many people disrespect their roots. I mean honestly, how can this website actually have debates when someone, no matter who, threatens to destroy our beloved BW?
i know right. all these people are quick to shout that the whole progaming scene has been ILLEGAL (we'll see about that in the Korean courts) without realizing that this is or was the core of TL for so many years.
I would be surprised if even half of TL at this point followed BW, people who were here before SC2 are in the minority now
On September 05 2010 18:04 numLoCK wrote: Let Joe Schmoe enter courage and get his face stomped, there's much more stopping him from participating than a license, its a big separator called skill. Frankly, I don't want to watch D, C, or any other low level game in my esports tournament. I want the S-Class Flash vs Jaedong. It really bothers me that TL has become a place where so many people disrespect their roots. I mean honestly, how can this website actually have debates when someone, no matter who, threatens to destroy our beloved BW?
i know right. all these people are quick to shout that the whole progaming scene has been ILLEGAL (we'll see about that in the Korean courts) without realizing that this is or was the core of TL for so many years.
I would be surprised if even half of TL at this point followed BW, people who were here before SC2 are in the minority now
TL is not the center of the world. Hell, for long it was not even center of foreign community.
^TL has always been the best place for foreigners to go for their Kprogaming fix. Other sites may have had a larger foreigner community base at one stage or another but none of them were dedicated to Korean progaming scene in the was TL is.
On September 05 2010 18:26 FishForThought wrote: Have you thought for a second that if it goes to court it is because Gretech wants to fight for their own interest? Blizzard is not behind every unsolved crime in the world and blaming them for giving Gretech the contract after Kespa refused it isn't going to reverse time and give Kespa a second chance to accept the offer.
Gretech and Blizzard's interests largely coincide: Gretech wants SC2 to replace BW, so does Blizzard. That doesn't mean that some Blizzard suit is on the phone giving orders, but Gretech is doing what Blizzard can't do directly.
On September 05 2010 18:26 FishForThought wrote: So GomTV winnings have a higher tax rate than PL winnings? You'll have to give me a source to that. The license didn't really do anything to professionalize the game, if you earn your pro-gamer license you still pretty much can't participate in the leagues without a team sponsor and if you do get sponsor, you get your license for free. Basically, the whole professional scene is based on whether you are lucky enough to get scouted by the kespa teams.
Team practice partners are expected to pass Courage and officialize their status with a license. And those that get scouted aren't "lucky," they're in top clans and often live in semipro houses and draw attention because they're the best. Semipro houses -- more infrastructure that wouldn't exist if there wasn't a clear path to becoming a progamer. And anyway you're denouncing a situation which will be even more pronounced if there is no official status or license at all. Doesn't make sense.
On September 05 2010 18:26 FishForThought wrote: You claim that BW is an esport thus, it should be treated like any other sport (free use and such) yet you admit that esport is not an "established sport" (so you need to keep pampering it). You need to make up your mind, if it is a sport, then regardless of Kespa's presence it will persist, if it is not a real sport then you have to accept that it is in blizzard's right to regulate it.
Where did I say any of this? You're confusing me with another poster.
On September 05 2010 18:26 FishForThought wrote: Joe Schmoe are the people on these forums that read strategies, practice every day, play in whatever tournament they can to improve themselves, only to find that they can never compete professionally or reach professional status, because the door to pro-gaming is only open to a select few that happens to be born in the right country and be at the right place at the right time.
Although I don't think you are, I can understand why people think you're a plant with these kind of carefully calibrated appeals to the masses that you've written here and in other threads. More importantly, this high-minded political campaign speech is completely baseless: on this very site, which SC2 tournament gets the most attention; which tournament are people most excited about? The GSL -- a Korean tourney with mostly high-level Korean players and Idra, who's fame derives from him being on a Korean proteam. People want to see the best. Hell, in a TL poll which asked, "which tournament was better, IEM Cologne or MLG Raleigh," over 70% of the votes went to IEM, and while people lauded the MLG's atmosphere, they thought IEM had the better players and better games. And that's what they want to watch.
Also, the "door to progaming" is open to everyone: KeSPA never controlled anything in other countries, so it's not their fault that progaming didn't take off in Europe or North America or somewhere else. This idea that killing them off will kickstart progaming in the rest of the world is just a lurid fantasy entertained by people hating on the Korean scene's success.
On September 05 2010 18:04 numLoCK wrote: Let Joe Schmoe enter courage and get his face stomped, there's much more stopping him from participating than a license, its a big separator called skill. Frankly, I don't want to watch D, C, or any other low level game in my esports tournament. I want the S-Class Flash vs Jaedong. It really bothers me that TL has become a place where so many people disrespect their roots. I mean honestly, how can this website actually have debates when someone, no matter who, threatens to destroy our beloved BW?
i know right. all these people are quick to shout that the whole progaming scene has been ILLEGAL (we'll see about that in the Korean courts) without realizing that this is or was the core of TL for so many years.
I would be surprised if even half of TL at this point followed BW, people who were here before SC2 are in the minority now
You're absolutely right. But the culture that was built up over the years cannot be allowed to disappear, or TL will be in danger of becoming just another SC2 site. We don't want to see Joe Schmoe, we want to watch the best. And I say this as a Joe Schmoe among many others. The scope and uniqueness of the Korean Brood War scene must never be forgotten, or people will settle for much less and get sweet-talked into thinking it's an improvement.
blizzard should just back off and let kespa does what it does. sc would never been this big if blizzard acted like this 8 years ago, if they want sc2 to be big in korea u gotta stop trying to make money of the tourneys
P.S. Is there a prize pool for PL at all? The teams would be compensated by advertising exposure even if they were just playing for pride/bragging rights.
no, I do not agree that removes easy to BW that, good, agree I they removed that it if the players (all) had practiced SC2 since beginning. But they have only left 2 fucks months, at least leave 1 year so that at least they know like playing it.
On September 05 2010 22:36 SubtleArt wrote: So, assuming there was no controversy, when would the proleague usually start?
Also, it's seriously painful to see all these hopelessly uninformed Sc2 players make ridiculous assumptions and baseless accusations towards KESPA.
Well, your standard uninformed SC2 player reporting right here.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching BW well before the news of SC2 development ever started. I like the culture and the vibe Korean progaming scene has managed. It's a culture that transcends your standard gamers and into mainstream society in SKorea, something I admire and respect the organisations for achieving it.
However, I really hated how KESPA hold all the players hostage and refuse to let them even try SC2. If let's say Bisu, Jaedong or Flash tries it, let us see the maximum potential the current S-rank BW players can achieve in SC2, and we find it BAD and goes back to BW, I will have nothing to say and trash talk SC2 as well. Do we even get that chance? I was furious when they pulled Nada out of the TLO showmatch. Why should we, the audience, the players, the Joe Schmoes be denied of possibilities because of their (all parties involved) petty politics and dictator-like behaviour?
The way I see it is, let's give KESPA the win and they managed to keep all that is current and progress from there. How much longer can they have? another 10 years? Do you people really see BW remaining in the mainstream for another 10 years? If so, how about 20 years? 30 more years on a fast evolving PC platform? What happens when one day players will have to downgrade their PC to play BW? *coughWindows7cough*
Will BW die? I hope not, I really wish the faze and excitement can last forever. But as all things in nature atrophy, so will BW one day, and I rather Blizzard take the helm and attempt to continue their IP and work WITH the Korean scene to prolong not only their product line, but also to sustain the progaming/e-sports culture. To push a product line that not only existing players can relate, adapt to and familiar with, but also further establish and expand an e-sport super-centre in SKorea where one day I can go on a pilgrimage to. Not a tomb of past-glories.
And I do want the Starcraft Universe to last forever.
On September 04 2010 14:02 FishForThought wrote: Why would they unlikely freeze all operations? Court battle would be between Gretech vs Kespa, both are domestic Korean companies, so there won't be any bias and one of them has a law binding contract that states that they get exclusive rights to broadcast the starcraft franchise. Also, Kespa being the non-profit organization, where would they get the money for a court battle?
Kespa gets its money from sponsors to host proleague, a tax from the proteams to be a member of Kespa and the Korean Ministry of Culture funds them. I suppose they got money from IEG for the broadcasting rights too. These companies spend money on Kespa/their teams because it's recognized as non-profit by the government and thus these companies also get tax breaks. Contrary to popular belief, they do not get money from advertising because they have no venue to advertise with; OGN and MBC get the money from advertisements.
Kespa is funded by multi-billion dollar corporations, if it was strictly about a fair amount of money, they would have probably agreed already. Obviously the member companies found their other terms unreasonable.
P.S. Is there a prize pool for PL at all? The teams would be compensated by advertising exposure even if they were just playing for pride/bragging rights.
- I heard now there are tax breaks for amateur leagues as well. ▲ Until now, only progamers had the 3.3% special tax rate. However, since the law changed in 2009, if a lot of players compete in a league, only 20% of the earnings are able to be taxed at 22% rate. That means you'll only have to pay 4.4% as tax. This is already being applied to all of the amateur leagues in Korea. So the players participating won't have to worry about losing a lot of money to tax.
The previous rate was ~22% on all their earnings. This changes if the prizes go over 100m won iirc.
There is a prize pool for winning PL.
It's strange that people see that Gretech as acting on their own. You don't think Blizzard is keeping tabs on their sole "partner" in Korea? If the whole point of Blizzard vs Kespa is about control, you think they just sold the contracts to Gretech and let them have free reign?
Also, the same terms to Gretech and OGN are not the same as to Kespa and MBC, because the former do not own any teams.
It's kinda funny because if Kespa and Blizzard worked together, it would be mutually beneficial to everyone. The pros would get a chance another game while continuing to be sponsored, the fans would be getting much better SC2 games, easier access to them and still get BW games, Kespa would get another game under their umbrella to promote e-sports with (regardless of what people may believe, BW is losing momentum) and legitimize their BW tournaments, and Blizzard would get 12 corporate teams willing to play their game officially and access to the cable networks.
As it is right now, several members of Kespa have used their clout to stop OGN from broadcasting GSL. I have heard that Mike Morhaime is meeting with the Ministry of Culture though, so I hope this shit gets sorted out.
Edit:
On September 06 2010 02:09 PandaPolice wrote: However, I really hated how KESPA hold all the players hostage and refuse to let them even try SC2.
They can't stop them from trying SC2, they are however forced to stop them from playing SC2 publicly in Korea because Gretech holds the rights to it.
If it goes to court, Gretech will just be doing Blizzard's dirty work.
Have you thought for a second that if it goes to court it is because Gretech wants to fight for their own interest? Blizzard is not behind every unsolved crime in the world and blaming them for giving Gretech the contract after Kespa refused it isn't going to reverse time and give Kespa a second chance to accept the offer.
The pro-gaming license was created to give progamers an important tax break on their tournament winnings, not to "alienate people." It was an important step in truly professionalizing the game, something that giving more people the chance to compete won't do, especially if the team structure is dissolved. Also, football and tennis are established sports while esports is not. It's rarely seen as a legitimate activity, and an officially recognized progaming license is one of the things that helps to overcome that view.
So GomTV winnings have a higher tax rate than PL winnings? You'll have to give me a source to that. The license didn't really do anything to professionalize the game, if you earn your pro-gamer license you still pretty much can't participate in the leagues without a team sponsor and if you do get sponsor, you get your license for free. Basically, the whole professional scene is based on whether you are lucky enough to get scouted by the kespa teams.
You claim that BW is an esport thus, it should be treated like any other sport (free use and such) yet you admit that esport is not an "established sport" (so you need to keep pampering it). You need to make up your mind, if it is a sport, then regardless of Kespa's presence it will persist, if it is not a real sport then you have to accept that it is in blizzard's right to regulate it.
And who cares about Joe Schmoe? People complaining about Flash vs Jaedong have no interest in him, they simply want other top progamers in the finals -- certainly not some random gamer.
Joe Schmoe are the people on these forums that read strategies, practice every day, play in whatever tournament they can to improve themselves, only to find that they can never compete professionally or reach professional status, because the door to pro-gaming is only open to a select few that happens to be born in the right country and be at the right place at the right time.
*Sigh*, you're once again writing utter rubbish and showing you know nothing about broodwar if you're not a troll you're some blizzard employee, anyway you're not a fan of broodwar or a person who knows anything about it.
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
WAIT, WHAT??? Do we speak about the same Activision Blizzard? Wake up! Besides, if Blizz doesnt want some piece of the pie, than why they even intervened in first place? Do you really are such naive, that you dont see they just dont tolerate home war between SC:BW and SC2 legues? They really want SC1 to die, becouse its, ironically, game that slows down SC2 reign in Korea. Don't you see that's not about KESPA, but all about Proleague?
Also for the last time, they don't want a piece of the pie. They just want to moderate who makes the pie with their pan. Blizzard has enough money, they don't want more money ; in fact, they dumped money to GOM for bigger tournament prizes and such.
This really is the dumbest.
Since Broodwar and balance patches. Try playing sc v 1.0 without broodwar or patches and see how balanced things are.
All credit to them for that of course. But keep in mind the last balance patch was released 9 years ago. All balance changes since then have come from players and mapmakers (which conveniently is hindered in SC2 since they control what maps are to be played)
If money is their priority, then they would of accepted Kespa's original offer of giving them just money. Instead, they opted for control and moderation such as Kespa needs permission from blizzard to host certain tournaments which Kespa does not like and rejects.
control leads to money. You are delusional if you don't think that's the end goal. REGARDLESS them wanting to assert control over something they did not help in building up is also not super noble seeming to me. They made the game which is awesome, but the whole structure of professional BW e-sports was built up with a lot of sacrifice from people who are not Blizzard. I don't really care what their motivation is, they are moving to tear that structure down.
I think their end-goal is have a global awareness of e-sport with their game, thus they want GOMTV to continue with English Commentators, amateur leagues, leagues that doesn't require a pro-gaming license to participate. I also think blizzard is willing to sacrifice royalties and a significant amount of money to create partners like Gretech to achieve this.
But hey I might be wrong, but it sounds more plausible than one you paint them: where Blizzard investors/employees sits on top of a pile of cash lighting their cigars with 100 dollar bills.
I'll use the pie analogy again. Kespa bakes pie, they use Blizzard's pan to bake them. Blizzard wants to have some say in what kind of pie they bake with their pan, Kespa says no.. so blizzard gave the pan to Gretech.
I won't add in the fact that Kespa was using the pan without consent since blizzard isn't suing them for that but It all comes down to: Does blizzard have the right to approve what pie Kespa bake with their pan and was Kespa being too stupid/stubborn to accept Blizzard's offer. I vote the latter.
On September 04 2010 06:12 zenMaster wrote: FishForThought is either a troll or a Blizzard employee.
Ironically, this is coming from someone who just posted a one liner that has no relevance to this topic.
It stands to little surprise that your account is not only recent but largely vested in this topic making me suspect that I was correct and you ARE likely a Blizzard plant. That or just REALLY REALLY living in a fantasy world.
Your claim that they just desire the growth of e-sports is interesting considering they ARE TRYING TO KILL IT BY THIS VERY ACT. Especially the part where you claim they don't care about royalties since that seems to me what has been largely their ongoing issue! As for leagues that don't require pro-league license to operate. YEAH THAT SURE WORKS OUT for the credibility of your players. It really means a lot that you beat Joe Schmoe #2349273423. So NO, your idea is NOT more plausible. It hasn't been plausible the moment you suggested Blizzard doesn't care about making more money.
I find it funny that you gave no evidence or insight to why my claims are wrong. All you are doing is screaming "YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT!". What evidence do you have that esport won't survive without kespa? What claims do you have that they solely want more money
I never said SOLELY more money. However you are just delusional if you think money doesn't have a large part to do with it. That's why you keep trying to obfuscate the issue by sayhing control or what not. I also LOVE how you inserted the word "solely" after you realize your argument doesn't fly so you're trying to change it midway. And you really need evidence on how I'm right about this? How about the fact that they're a corporation and their main goal is to GENERATE PROFITS?
Gretech and Blizzard's interests largely coincide: Gretech wants SC2 to replace BW, so does Blizzard. That doesn't mean that some Blizzard suit is on the phone giving orders, but Gretech is doing what Blizzard can't do directly.
Again, Blizzard doesn't care who broadcasts Starcraft in korea, as long as they have some say in the broadcast. If Kespa does broadcast without consent and Gretech sues, it is not about Sc2 vs Bw, it is simply about broadcasting rights on an IP.
Team practice partners are expected to pass Courage and officialize their status with a license. And those that get scouted aren't "lucky," they're in top clans and often live in semipro houses and draw attention because they're the best. Semipro houses -- more infrastructure that wouldn't exist if there wasn't a clear path to becoming a progamer. And anyway you're denouncing a situation which will be even more pronounced if there is no official status or license at all. Doesn't make sense.
The very definition of professional is "following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain". Passing Courage and getting your pro-gamer license doesn't let you follow the "occupation as a mean of livelihood", it simply means you are allow to participate in their tournaments (which you can't without being picked by kespa's teams).
Pro-gamer license would actually mean something if it allows you to enter an organization which would set you up with sponsors that would give you a "mean of livelihood" but right now this license is pointless as it does not differentiate you from a professional or not. The Tax reduction is no longer needed as well, since the law change, people get taxed 4.4% vs 3.3%. The only thing it does do right now is alienating and stopping people from participating in the individual leagues
Where did I say any of this? You're confusing me with another poster.
Well. you admit that esport is not an established sport. I might of made some assumptions.. my bad.
Although I don't think you are, I can understand why people think you're a plant with these kind of carefully calibrated appeals to the masses that you've written here and in other threads. More importantly, this high-minded political campaign speech is completely baseless: on this very site, which SC2 tournament gets the most attention; which tournament are people most excited about? The GSL -- a Korean tourney with mostly high-level Korean players and Idra, who's fame derives from him being on a Korean proteam. People want to see the best. Hell, in a TL poll which asked, "which tournament was better, IEM Cologne or MLG Raleigh," over 70% of the votes went to IEM, and while people lauded the MLG's atmosphere, they thought IEM had the better players and better games. And that's what they want to watch.
Also, the "door to progaming" is open to everyone: KeSPA never controlled anything in other countries, so it's not their fault that progaming didn't take off in Europe or North America or somewhere else. This idea that killing them off will kickstart progaming in the rest of the world is just a lurid fantasy entertained by people hating on the Korean scene's success.
I ignore the 'plant' comments as the only reason I am posting is to create a meaningful debate, not to advocate for blizzard or gretech.
You are right, people want to see the best. They also want to see new people topple over the kings like how bisu toppled savior. Having more people compete gives more chance for 1. New players to take out famed players 2. New players get noticed by sponsors.
Back in the medieval days, countries would host 'sport' competitions where they invite everyone to participate. Obviously, most of the time the athletes sponsored by the Kings and nobles would usually win, but rare occasions some stranger (Joe Schmoe) in the country side would come and take the prize. This ignited mass's interest in the sport and competition and gave people hope that they can eventually be that random stranger and this is how true sports are made.
Kespa's PL tournaments are similar except they alienate people and only allow people sponsored by 'kings and nobles' to join . Kespa's way of doing things actually derails BW into becoming an established e-sport. Do I think they should be killed off? No, but i think they should change, and expand to make the game appeal outside of Korea instead of being stuck in their three league bubble.
If you are going to tell me that they already did, and TL is the testament to them reaching out to foreigners, then I would say you are full of BS. For the last 12 years, Kespa didn't provide any english commentators for their games, they didn't invite any foreigners to participate and they made no effort to reach out to the foreigner world.
On September 06 2010 03:57 FishForThought wrote: Back in the medieval days, countries would host 'sport' competitions where they invite everyone to participate. Obviously, most of the time the athletes sponsored by the Kings and nobles would usually win, but rare occasions some stranger (Joe Schmoe) in the country side would come and take the prize. This ignited mass's interest in the sport and competition and gave people hope that they can eventually be that random stranger and this is how true sports are made.
Again, wtf are you talking about? Back in the middle ages and renaissance period (12th to 16th centuries) tournaments were open to royalty (Knights, Lords, etc). Your Joe Schmoe peasants weren't welcome as competitors (why the fuck are you still using that term btw).
Your biggest gripe seems to be that the level of competition in BW is high, and so if the average person sucks balls he won't make the A-team, boo fucking hoo. You want to break into esports in korea? enter Courage, its hosted once a month. If you win, you get your license, but even if you don't and make it far enough, you can get scouted and offered a position. Up until this bullshit started, which led to uncertainty this past season and thus a smaller draft this year, there have been a fair bit of players drafted due to their skill but not actually winning courage. Teams do have a couple of licenses they can give out a year..
You completely avoided my argument about people wanting to watch the best players and set up a big distraction there. You also kept up the "alienation" red herring even though I explained that the players scouted by KeSPA are top clan players and such -- the most deserving Joe Schmoes. You failed to really address any of my points.
And you really, really sound like a plant, all the more so when all of your posts are about the Gretech/KeSPA dispute. You're also much too smooth and deliberate in the way you obfuscate.
Does he even know how high the level of competition is? I suggest he research about Idra, the top foreigner, and how far he made it into the BW progaming scene before spouting his medieval foreigner alienating bullshit.
On September 06 2010 03:57 FishForThought wrote: If you are going to tell me that they already did, and TL is the testament to them reaching out to foreigners, then I would say you are full of BS. For the last 12 years, Kespa didn't provide any english commentators for their games, they didn't invite any foreigners to participate and they made no effort to reach out to the foreigner world.
Elky never happened
Legionnaire never happened
(they were playing after KPGA/KeSPA was formed)
Artosis wasn't hired by IEG, and they didn't recruit Idra on their team
Samsung, part of KeSPA, doesn't run WCG, which was the biggest regular Brood War event for foreigners -- and that's where your Joe Shmoes faced the Koreans, and they got smashed.
On September 06 2010 03:57 FishForThought wrote: Back in the medieval days, countries would host 'sport' competitions where they invite everyone to participate. Obviously, most of the time the athletes sponsored by the Kings and nobles would usually win, but rare occasions some stranger (Joe Schmoe) in the country side would come and take the prize. This ignited mass's interest in the sport and competition and gave people hope that they can eventually be that random stranger and this is how true sports are made.
Again, wtf are you talking about? Back in the middle ages and renaissance period (12th to 16th centuries) tournaments were open to royalty (Knights, Lords, etc). Your Joe Schmoe peasants weren't welcome as competitors (why the fuck are you still using that term btw).
Your biggest gripe seems to be that the level of competition in BW is high, and so if the average person sucks balls he won't make the A-team, boo fucking hoo. You want to break into esports in korea? enter Courage, its hosted once a month. If you win, you get your license, but even if you don't and make it far enough, you can get scouted and offered a position. Up until this bullshit started, which led to uncertainty this past season and thus a smaller draft this year, there have been a fair bit of players drafted due to their skill but not actually winning courage. Teams do have a couple of licenses they can give out a year..
"Medieval Sports in the Middle Ages - Sporting Contests Feudalism can be well described as a Pyramid of Power. It was possible for everyone to move higher up the ranks of the pyramid and this is what everyone aspired to do. A Knight who proved valiant in battle or was successful at jousting in tournaments would become wealthy. His wealth could pay for a castle. His importance in the land would increase and he would join the nobility. A peasant who excelled in Medieval sports of the Middle Ages could win a purse at a Sporting contest, gain an important reputation and increased value by his lord and his position in life would improve."
My gripe is actually about winning Courage doesn't actually make you a professional even tho its called a pro-gamer license and it actually derails BW as a esport.
You completely avoided my argument about people wanting to watch the best players and set up a big distraction there. You also kept up the "alienation" red herring even though I explained that the players scouted by KeSPA are top clan players and such -- the most deserving Joe Schmoes. You failed to really address any of my points.
And you really, really sound like a plant, all the more so when all of your posts are about the Gretech/KeSPA dispute. You're also much too smooth and deliberate in the way you obfuscate.
Actually, I didn't avoid your argument, I agreed with it but I added the fact that people want to see new faces as well. Alienation isn't really a red-hearing, it an issue i have about Kespa but you seem to accept that alienation is ok as long as you still get to top gamers play, while I feel that alienation hurts the game as esport.
If you are good and get scouted by Kespa, then good for you, luck is on your side. If you are good but don't get scouted then too bad for you. No matter how good you are, you won't be able to participate if you don't get scouted and that goes for even after winning Courage, you still won't be able to participate without a sponsor.
Would you guys feel less 'planty' of me, if i go around other threads and posting one liners "BW is awesome, SC2 sucks, Kespa FTW!!!!11"?
On September 05 2010 16:02 FishForThought wrote: As for other comments.. do you need a FiFA license to play in the FIFA? Do you need a Tennis license to play Tennis in the French Open? Don't be stupid, pro-gaming license is only there to alienate people from participating in tournaments. If PL didn't have this pro-gaming license, more people would get the chance to compete. Its not about beating "Joe Schmoe#2349273423", its about whether giving "Joe Schmoe#2349273423" a chance to compete. I dunno about you, but I am getting tired of watching the same people play over and over again. How many times do we need to watch Flash vs Jaedong? If BW is truly the e-sport game, then it doesn't matter if Kespa is there or not, people will still play it. Just like if there are no Tennis, or golf tournaments, people will still play Tennis and golf.
I can speak about experience from my home BW community. For years it was quite strong. Enouth strong to get a money needed to send additional player to WCG. Enouth stong to create some good BW players. But not strong enouth to keep those players interested in farther developement. Thats all becouse the system was based on prize hunters and entusiasts, who never had guaranteed a profits from time invested to play. When they had to choose: job or play, school or play, university or play...they almoust always retired. Insured salary is the factor, that can keep those players interested in game/strategy developement, becouse it turns the entertaiment to job. Thats why e-sport needs ProLeague. Thats why we need teams like SKT T1, CJ Entus, Oz or KT. Thats why we need sponsors and organisations like KESPA, even if they are a bunch of idiots. Just look at BW play of "foreigners" and Koreans. "Foreigners" creativity is decent, but the play is nowere near as dynamic as those from pros.
Sorry for my poor english
This is why BW esports took off in Korea and kept going when it didn't elsewhere. The structured proleague and salaries. GSL 2, 3, 4 etc isn't going to cut it, and I see no indication Blizzard is interested in setting up a proleague for SC2
TBH I would love to see Koreans sweep the GSL. If not this one then GSL2, as everyone seems to acknowledge is likely
While the first GSL may not produce SC2’s future icons, much more is at stake for many of its qualified players. Everyone saw Nada’s level of SC2 play after just ten days of practice. As former eSTRO player and coach Tester said in an interview, “it would be terrifying if the BW players come [to SC2].” The current SC2 pros know that the clock is ticking, and if the recent breakdowns in Proleague licensing negotiations and rumors of teams disbanding are any indication, a few top flight SC1 progamers could walk in the door to GSL qualifiers as early as next season.
The goal for all SC2 progamers is to win, and win right now.
I would love to see you blabber about alienation when this happens. If your buddies manage to kill off BW and bring the pros to SC2 that will quickly kill off one of the things driving foreigner tournaments and enthusiasm right now: the delusion that they have a chance this time around.
And please, enough with the Chewbacca Defense with all this talk about peasants and medieval times
On September 06 2010 03:57 FishForThought wrote: Back in the medieval days, countries would host 'sport' competitions where they invite everyone to participate. Obviously, most of the time the athletes sponsored by the Kings and nobles would usually win, but rare occasions some stranger (Joe Schmoe) in the country side would come and take the prize. This ignited mass's interest in the sport and competition and gave people hope that they can eventually be that random stranger and this is how true sports are made.
Again, wtf are you talking about? Back in the middle ages and renaissance period (12th to 16th centuries) tournaments were open to royalty (Knights, Lords, etc). Your Joe Schmoe peasants weren't welcome as competitors (why the fuck are you still using that term btw).
Your biggest gripe seems to be that the level of competition in BW is high, and so if the average person sucks balls he won't make the A-team, boo fucking hoo. You want to break into esports in korea? enter Courage, its hosted once a month. If you win, you get your license, but even if you don't and make it far enough, you can get scouted and offered a position. Up until this bullshit started, which led to uncertainty this past season and thus a smaller draft this year, there have been a fair bit of players drafted due to their skill but not actually winning courage. Teams do have a couple of licenses they can give out a year..
"Medieval Sports in the Middle Ages - Sporting Contests Feudalism can be well described as a Pyramid of Power. It was possible for everyone to move higher up the ranks of the pyramid and this is what everyone aspired to do. A Knight who proved valiant in battle or was successful at jousting in tournaments would become wealthy. His wealth could pay for a castle. His importance in the land would increase and he would join the nobility. A peasant who excelled in Medieval sports of the Middle Ages could win a purse at a Sporting contest, gain an important reputation and increased value by his lord and his position in life would improve."
My gripe is actually about winning Courage doesn't actually make you a professional even tho its called a pro-gamer license and it actually derails BW as a esport.
You completely avoided my argument about people wanting to watch the best players and set up a big distraction there. You also kept up the "alienation" red herring even though I explained that the players scouted by KeSPA are top clan players and such -- the most deserving Joe Schmoes. You failed to really address any of my points.
And you really, really sound like a plant, all the more so when all of your posts are about the Gretech/KeSPA dispute. You're also much too smooth and deliberate in the way you obfuscate.
Actually, I didn't avoid your argument, I agreed with it but I added the fact that people want to see new faces as well. Alienation isn't really a red-hearing, it an issue i have about Kespa but you seem to accept that alienation is ok as long as you still get to top gamers play, while I feel that alienation hurts the game as esport.
If you are good and get scouted by Kespa, then good for you, luck is on your side. If you are good but don't get scouted then too bad for you. No matter how good you are, you won't be able to participate if you don't get scouted and that goes for even after winning Courage, you still won't be able to participate without a sponsor.
Would you guys feel less 'planty' of me, if i go around other threads and posting one liners "BW is awesome, SC2 sucks, Kespa FTW!!!!11"?
Those wouldn't be progamers, peasents weren't allowed to compete with royalty. This isn't A Knight's Tale. Sporting contest != tournament. Your peasants would have their bnet, progamers their iccup.
And if you win courage, you will more than likely get an offer to be drafted to a team and work your way up. As others mentioned before, its actually easier to break into than mainstream sports where you don't even have a Courage-like event to show your skills at, and have to rely on hoping college scouts spot you (assuming you're playing in a college team), or try the random open here and there (which aren't even available for all sports).
And tbh, I don't think you're a plant, your arguments are too shallow. I think you're just a troll, but since I'm equally bored atm I decided I'll play along.
On September 06 2010 03:57 FishForThought wrote: The very definition of professional is "following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain". Passing Courage and getting your pro-gamer license doesn't let you follow the "occupation as a mean of livelihood", it simply means you are allow to participate in their tournaments (which you can't without being picked by kespa's teams).
Pro-gamer license would actually mean something if it allows you to enter an organization which would set you up with sponsors that would give you a "mean of livelihood" but right now this license is pointless as it does not differentiate you from a professional or not. The Tax reduction is no longer needed as well, since the law change, people get taxed 4.4% vs 3.3%. The only thing it does do right now is alienating and stopping people from participating in the individual leagues
That's how professional licenses work in other fields. Getting a license just means you're qualified and able to practice the occupation. It does not mean the examiners set you up with a job and people start paying you. If no one hires you, too bad? I guess people didn't see you as good enough to pay you. Maybe you should do a better job selling yourself.
On September 06 2010 05:10 MamiyaOtaru wrote: This is why BW esports took off in Korea and kept going when it didn't elsewhere. The structured proleague and salaries. GSL 2, 3, 4 etc isn't going to cut it, and I see no indication Blizzard is interested in setting up a proleague for SC2
TBH I would love to see Koreans sweep the GSL. If not this one then GSL2, as everyone seems to acknowledge is likely
While the first GSL may not produce SC2’s future icons, much more is at stake for many of its qualified players. Everyone saw Nada’s level of SC2 play after just ten days of practice. As former eSTRO player and coach Tester said in an interview, “it would be terrifying if the BW players come [to SC2].” The current SC2 pros know that the clock is ticking, and if the recent breakdowns in Proleague licensing negotiations and rumors of teams disbanding are any indication, a few top flight SC1 progamers could walk in the door to GSL qualifiers as early as next season.
Well.. you represent the few.. most people on this board/thread would rather see GSL die and BW live another decade.
I would love to see you blabber about alienation when this happens. If your buddies manage to kill off BW and bring the pros to SC2 that will quickly kill off one of the things driving foreigner tournaments and enthusiasm right now: the delusion that they have a chance this time around.
Seeing TLO struggle and maybe take a game from Jaedong has to be more epically more interesting to watch than another bout of Flash vs Jaedong in BW.
And please, enough with the Chewbacca Defense with all this talk about peasants and medieval times
Chewbacca defense only works if people get confused. Were you confused by my Medevel analogy?
Those wouldn't be progamers, peasents weren't allowed to compete with royalty. This isn't A Knight's Tale. Sporting contest != tournament. Your peasants would have their bnet, progamers their iccup.
Care to differentiate the difference between sporting contest and tournament?
Also i think you missed the second part of "Feudalism can be well described as a Pyramid of Power. It was possible for everyone to move higher up the ranks of the pyramid and this is what everyone aspired to do"
Royalty may not be the best swordsmen or jouster. So attempting to equate Royalty and Professional gamers doesn't really work.
And if you win courage, you will more than likely get an offer to be drafted to a team and work your way up. As others mentioned before, its actually easier to break into than mainstream sports where you don't even have a Courage-like event to show your skills at, and have to rely on hoping college scouts spot you (assuming you're playing in a college team), or try the random open here and there (which aren't even available for all sports).
If its PL where its team vs team, then yeah, i can understand the need for the team to draft you before you can compete. If its M/O/SL, where its individual, you shouldn't need to be pre-drafted into a team in order to compete. Teams should be scouting players who does well in OSL/MSL for PL.. not the other way around.
My gripe is actually about winning Courage doesn't actually make you a professional even tho its called a pro-gamer license and it actually derails BW as a esport.
Earning a college degree doesn't make you a professional either, but its usually a requirement for upper level jobs. (and a fishing license doesn't mean you'll catch anything)
I feel like both scenes have played extremely poorly with each other in terms of being willing to break the stalemate and try to compromise. While I'm mainly an SC2 player, I got back into BW in about 2008 and agree that it's a much more strategically interesting game than SC2 is so far, and I wish the BW leagues would be able to continue. When it comes down to it, people need to be on the side of the game, not of either organization. And there is a distinction between the two (I like SC2's gameplay but hate Battle.net 2.0 and the other background garbage Activision's pulled, for example)
Activision's too greedy when it comes to wanting their hands in the e-sports market, and KeSPA's too greedy when it comes to keeping the hold that they have. I'm disappointed that AVB is taking an all-or-nothing approach, but at the same time I was disappointed when KeSPA blacklisted the GOM league just because it feels dirty to have one group controlling that much of any sports scene. Hopefully something can get worked out (however last minute) that doesn't end up hurting the fans for the sake of money that relies on those same fans sticking around.
I'm, still rather desperate on this working out some how, some way. if Blizzard does indeed care for the fans then they should let something go, and as for Kespa... well there just stupid, acting stubborn in this way, and basically pushing the problem even worse isn't what they SHOULD be doing. this is ridiculous.
On August 31 2010 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: Man I've been wondering how this was coming along since the last update. I was really hoping that no news was good news, but apparently not.
As others have pointed out, Blizzard hold all the Aces in this situation. If MBC don't want to play the game then things look very bleak.
I'm not religious but maybe it's time to convert!!
Convert my ass, I'd rather switch to Warcraft than SC2
Hi guys, im a long time lurker here (long enough that i have finished reading all 794 pages of the K-pop Thread/Korean Music Discussion Thread, among other things, if that shows any indication of how long i have been around).. Usually i find no need to post anything and just enjoy the discussions and the VoDs (big thanks to Team Liquid for that).. But i am so greatly disturbed by this issue that i made an account just so i can voice my opinion.
Now first for this FishForThought guy, all posts on Kespa vs Gretech issue? Really? Dont people who just got into the forum started by posting into hype threads or Live Report threads or whatever else that perks their interest? oO.. That would have been ok if that fact wasnt accompanied by the fact that all his posts have been using semi-formal language, trying to sound persuasive by putting forward vaguely relevant analogies and arguments to confuse people.. To be honest i find the link so hard to grasp at some points, it kinda confused me.. Im sure it did for some others too.. So i feel that rather than just being an obscenely stupid SC2 fan, he must (should) have something more to gain by siding with Blizzard (yea i know many dont thinks so, but a plant is what is in my mind).
As with regards to this whole Blizzard vs Kespa issue (yes i cant believe there exist someone whos not blessed with enough intelligence to realise that Blizzard is behind Gretech on this one).. Sorry that i have to number my points to make it easier to organise them in my head.. Its 7.34am and i havnt slept, spending the better part of the night reading up on this issue..
1/ People (especially those that took Blizzard's side) are saying it as if Kespa and the players violated Blizzard's Intellectual Property rights for playing after paying.. That is not true until the court ruled that it is so.. And choosing to completely disregard the fact that all those people (Kespa n their players), after having paid for the game, had to spend years of hardwork to make the scene what it is today. Organisers had to organise events, prepare logistics.. sponsors had to fork out money, take risks.. players had to train everyday, entertain the fans.. and the fans in turn fell in love with them, and continued to cheer on for a decade.. Werent those the things that made up the Scene? Now other than all that, all parties involved already paid Blizzard for the beautiful SC1 that they made.. How is it reasonable that Blizzard, who, after making the game, did nothing but shake legs n collect money be given the rights to all the fruits of OUR (all parties involved that was listed above) EFFORT, when all we did was pay them, and then invest our heart and soul into this thing called SC:BW.
2/ In about any scene in existence (games, sports, even academics), being developed means that the elites will be selected, and specially trained so that they will be ensured the best chance at winning.. Soccer have their ManU, Real, Barca who only select the best.. Intenational Mathematic Olympiads only have the best guys in every country that has been gathered as elites and trained for a few months. I dont see how pro E-sport scene should be different. Progaming = E-sport. Thats not even my own subjective opinion, thats fact. I can see how Kespa benefit from the existence of Progaming teams: with training only the elites, the skillcap will be increased, thus making it more exciting, and in turn, draw in the audience... I can also see how Blizzard will benefit from the dissolution of Progaming: low skillcap means that more random casual players will have this delusion that "hey, maybe i can make it, with some luck".. Which in turn means more sales for them..
3/ Slightly related to the above point. But to avoid the clumped wall of text.. While it is still an uncertainty, it is hardly even arguable that Blizzard cant (and wont) support a large number of Progaming teams as they are now.. The cost is huge, and they simply wont cut an arm and a leg to pay those Pros.. Whats more they even have a reason to not like the existence of those pro players (this is merely in my humble opinion)..
4/ While i do not know what kind of E-sport Blizzard have in mind, i can speak with certainty that it is an E-sport without fans. For i do not see how new people would be willing to pay $ (and no trivial amount at that) every month to watch a game that they dont even understand (im skipping the part where waiting 20 minutes for 1 ball to roll over the other is fracken boring).. And a sport without its spectators, would not be a sport.. I know that the free streams and VoDs are what let me started looking at Brood War, and falling in love with it (i still dont play, i only watch and comment excitedly with friends)..
I hope with my sleepiness this analogy that i want to use here doesnt go out of point.
Lets say Blizz make World of Starcraft, and says "we need all the current WoW server to support our new WoS, so WoW is no more" thus voiding all the efforts that the players have spent raiding, PvP-ing; killing all those gears and ratings that many players have so far accumulated.. its their "property", be it the server or the game itself.. Is it justified that they can do that.. Will people still eat up the same garbage like the one being thrown out now?
I am sorry if that was a bad analogy or didnt make any sense, again its already 8.17am now. But i hope someone would actually read those points i have had above and hopefully agree with them.
1st post on Team Liquid, please be gentle with ur flames, and more contructive comments please .. Peace.
On August 31 2010 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: Man I've been wondering how this was coming along since the last update. I was really hoping that no news was good news, but apparently not.
As others have pointed out, Blizzard hold all the Aces in this situation. If MBC don't want to play the game then things look very bleak.
I'm not religious but maybe it's time to convert!!
Convert my ass, I'd rather switch to Warcraft than SC2
Actually man, what I meant with my convert comment, was convert to religion, not SC2. As in, it's time to convert to religion so I can pray and thereby save SC:BW.
Lets say Blizz make World of Starcraft, and says "we need all the current WoW server to support our new WoS, so WoW is no more"... Is it justified that they can do that?
I think what irks me is that clearly blizzard should legally be able to do that with their IP. But its still a totally pants move.
Its like they came up to Kespa and pointed out that their nice shiny castle was built on sand. And rather than come up with an agreeable solution to the problem they demanded help building a sandcastle. (with the sand from under kespa's castle)
Good riddance FishForThought, with your logical fallacies and down right bigotry. Everyone in the world would be holding hands prancing around in a flower field around a bunch of rainbow unicorns if you want the world to be "fair". Hate to knock some reality into your fantasy, but only the best can compete. I don't want to watch shitty D- playing in my OSL/MSL.
I know we're going a bit offtopic now, but idra never passed courage. He was given his license by eSTRO and traded to CJ.
You selectively highlighted it wrong. It's " Idra (a foreigner) was invited to join estro before he passed courage." Which is just a way of saying they gave him a license without waiting for him to win Courage (that he never did is irrelevant after that. He wouldn't be entering it once he got his license).
And please, enough with the Chewbacca Defense with all this talk about peasants and medieval times
Chewbacca defense only works if people get confused. Were you confused by my Medevel analogy?
No. Your Chewbacca defense failed. Just because it failed doesn't mean you didn't try it though. You were clearly trying to confuse by injecting discussion about unrelated crap.
Just a head's up, there is a huge article(in Chinese) in wfbrood regarding the latest development in Blizz/GomTV vs Kespa. And it's not going very well at all!
Perhaps someone could do a translation.
Highlights:
赵启形(dunno in English)from SKT1 said: Everyone in Korea Esport should team up and strike back against Blizz/GomTV.
SKT1，KT，Woojin Stars: We tried our hardest to negotiate with GomTV, but since they denied PL, won't recognise PL, and won't recognise the teams' opinion on the matter, we were force to make this decision.
(This part might be good news) All 12 teams will not participate in GSL, unless their requests were met.
GomTV: So that GSL can operate smoothly, PL must change it's schedule. Kespa: PL is the biggest and oldest competition in Korea Esport, you are denying PL a chance. GomTV: You can say that.
Kespa: Not allowing PL, does that mean you won't recognise the teams' existence? GomTV: If something doesn't help GSL, we don't have to recognise it.
KT representative 金永珍: If it doesn't benefits GSL, not only SPL, even the teams won't get recognise. After hearing GomTV's stance, we realised that they have no intention of negotiating. Therefore we will all team together and fight with GomTV till the end!
On September 06 2010 22:47 mmdmmd wrote: Hey guys,
Just a head's up, there is a huge article(in Chinese) in wfbrood regarding the latest development in Blizz/GOMTV vs Kespa. And it's not going very well at all!
On September 06 2010 22:47 mmdmmd wrote: Hey guys,
Just a head's up, there is a huge article(in Chinese) in wfbrood regarding the latest development in Blizz/GomTV vs Kespa. And it's not going very well at all!
Perhaps someone could do a translation.
Highlights:
赵启形(dunno in English)from SKT1 said: Everyone in Korea Esport should team up and strike back against Blizz/GomTV.
SKT1，KT，Woojin Stars: We tried our hardest to negotiate with GomTV, but since they denied PL, won't recognise PL, and won't recognise the teams' opinion on the matter, we were force to make this decision.
(This part might be good news) All 12 teams will not participate in GSL, unless their requests were met.
GomTV: So that GSL can operate smoothly, PL must change it's schedule. Kespa: PL is the biggest and oldest competition in Korea Esport, you are denying PL a chance. GomTV: You can say that.
That's nothing new :|
Pretty much Gretech is demanding primetime slots and saying it should have priority over PL.
On September 06 2010 22:47 mmdmmd wrote: Hey guys,
Just a head's up, there is a huge article(in Chinese) in wfbrood regarding the latest development in Blizz/GOMTV vs Kespa. And it's not going very well at all!
GomTV and Kespa ended their 4th negotiation session by merely stating their respective individual positions. The negotiations started last Thursday regarding intellectual property and the right to host tournaments, but ended without reaching any consensus.
At the end of the third negotiation session, the two sides agreed to talk about the details of intellectual property royalties at the 4th session. However, during the 4th session, GomTV demanded additional conditions with regards to the GSL that put the negotiations into a quagmire. GomTV says: as far as we're concerned, Proleague is the biggest barrier that might prevent GSL from becoming successful, and therefore Proleague must be 'adjusted' to ensure GSL's success.
KeSPA says: the way we see it, GomTV selfishly wants to cancel a 7-year tournament (SPL) merely because they think there's nothing in it for them. GomTV replies: that's exactly how we think. Thus the negotiationended.
SKT1 official Oh Yeong Dol [best effort], who participated in the negotiations, said afterwards that: even if GomTV managed to acquire a license for all of Blizzard's IP, they can't ignore so many years of Korean broadcast television history. We will consult with all the other proteams and develop a common plan of action.
Well its not like we do not know already, but it was all just personal conjectures before, Blizz defender could say it was 1-sided bias statements from Kespa before.
But now they have come out n openly say it that they dont want Proleague. Im eager and curious to see what the teams and Kespa will do in response to their (GOM's) action this time.. Rooting for them as well..
GomTV's position in the 4th negotiations was pretty much "the proteams are not neccessary." During the negotiations, GomTV stated that SPL is the biggest barrier to the success of the GSL, and they don't want any sort of team-based tournaments.
[Proteams] negotiators say: broadcast competitions, such as the Prologue, has developed to such a high level due to the contributions of all the major company-sponsored proteams. GomTV's stance completely ignores the reality of Korean broadcast television and basically means that they refused to negotiate with proteams. The unsuccessful conclusion of this negotiation session is solely due to the choices of GomTV.
GomTV, as Blizzard's representative in Korea, has previously demanded outrageous payments from TV stations like MBCgame, showing that they have no interest in negotiations in general. [But GomTV's behavior in session was especially contemptible]; in this negotiations, they suddenly wanted to change the topic [original says "main body," might be a typo for "topic"] of the discussions. The discussions included all of the proteam officials, but GomTV only wanted conditions that benefitted themselves, showing that they once again has no real desire for negotiations.
This sort of treatment [from GomTV to KeSPA] is pretty much what Blizzard did to KeSPA at the very beginning. Blizzard wanted KeSPA to recognize Blizzard's IP and demanded unacceptable terms. Blizzard wanted to approve all proteam sponsorship agreements and wanted a cut of the sponsorship payments. Blizzard also made similar demands of the TV stations [with regards to revenue]. Furthermore, Blizzard completely disrespected the work proteams have done to promote their top players, and demanded that top players must attend Blizzard tournaments or events without condition.
Even despite Blizzard's harsh demands, KeSPA still worked to find common ground. But at this 4th negation session, where GomTV called into question the reason for the existence of the proteams, the rift between the parties has grown even wider. This disagreement may last even longer.
SKT1，KT等战队携手赞助商寻找对策 SKT1, KT, and other proteams unite with sponsors to develop response
SKT1, KT, STX, Woojin, and other proteams sponsors have formed an "Anti-Blizzard Alliance" [or Horde, haha]. During the August 26 negotiations, GomTV refuses to even acknowledge proteams and the SPL despite diligent effort of the proteams to find a resolution. Due to GomTV's unacceptable demands, the negotiations broke down, and each proteam representative relayed the results back to the teams. The teams, after receiving the report, have decided to unite as one to fight GomTV.
All proteams participating in the negotiations have decided to boycott any sort of Starcraft 2 activity until the situation is resolved. In addition, the current tournaments of MSL, OSL, and Prologue will forcefully continue [note: it's not clear if "current" refers to only this season or the tournaments in general]. In addition, OGN will not broadcast GSL. Even though OGN and GomTV already have a contract, if GomTV does not allow proteams, Korea broadcast eSport's defining feature, to continue, then OGN as a KeSPA member must stay in line with KeSPA. KeSPA's head official, SKT1's Cho Gye Hyeong [best effort] said, after hearing the decisions of the teams: all Korea broadcast eSport organizations must remain united and attack GomTV/Blizzard forcefully.
On September 07 2010 03:05 Milkis wrote: What source did that cite for that piece? That just reads like a more exaggerated/speculated versions of things I've been reading
No cites on the original. I do not vouch for the accuracy of the source material.
On September 07 2010 03:05 Milkis wrote: What source did that cite for that piece? That just reads like a more exaggerated/speculated versions of things I've been reading
I think so too. I read this news before, just feel like news combined with gossip. This kind of news should not come from Chinese Media, especially on internet. It should only come from Korean media.
On September 07 2010 03:05 Milkis wrote: What source did that cite for that piece? That just reads like a more exaggerated/speculated versions of things I've been reading
I think so too. I read this news before, just feel like news combined with gossip. This kind of news should not come from Chinese Media, especially on internet. It should only come from Korean media.
Basically it's some combination of all the material out there, interpreted in a specific way and exaggerated quite a bit I think.
The last part is from DES, but DES shouldn't be taken that seriously when it comes to issues like this. It's mostly talk until something happens :|
Hmm.. if all the pros (and their teams) call out to their fans to boycott SC2, plus the bad publicity from all these stuffs.. Any wanna can throw a guess as to how much it ll affect Blizzard's SC2 sale in Korea, and maybe GSL specifically?
GOMTV and Blizzard can go fuck them themselves for all i care , proleague has been here for 7 years and i don't see why it should change just because Starcraft 2 has been released . GSL is a good league and all , but except for the money thrown in it is not as proffesional even to the level of MSL. And they want to destroy the most professional e - sports league ever made - the Proleague Not to mention that with Korean Air OSL the BW sceen has hit new heights .
So does Gretech/Blizzard not realize or simply not care that without the proteams these players can't really be professional gamers as they won't have a steady income to rely upon.
Assuming the above stories are true and not just gossip, Gretech/Blizzard can go fuck themselves. I feel guilty for buying and playing StarCraft 2.
Still going to see a lot of weaker ex-bw players and new age kiddies trying to chase after those GSL prize pools.
This is exactly what I wanted to happen though, I want kespa and all the pro teams to unite and boycott sc2, not because i think sc2 is not as good as bw for competitive play, but because of the way blizz and gom are trying to monopolize the korean esport scene.
Hopefully when this goes to court, the rulings are favorable for kespa and permanently squash any chance blizz has of taking over the esports scene.
Blizzard has become purely about the money (yes there was a time when they actually thoroughly cared about the game content before wow went into development) and I do not think they care enough about esports to have that passion and drive to evolve it in the spirit of competition. Everything they do would be corporate BS.
I also dislike how already in GSL you have tasteless and artosis mindlessly just promoting SC2. I think they were told that they had to zoom in on buildings and units more to show off the pretty graphics as a promotional tactic, and they keep spouting misinformation like saying GSL has the biggest prize money of any esports to date.
The only 16 posts you have on TL are all about kespa vs gretech thing. I have strong faith that you are a blizzard or gretech guy
look if "blizzard guys" actually were so passionate about the game that they trolled random forums defending there work, I'd respect them a lot more.
hes just an idiot lol.
Well there's also the fact that he is specifically arguing against the formation of proleague teams when he started getting into more specifics of why he dislikes Kespa. Then comes out the translation about GOM calling for disbanding of proleague teams. Hmm...
All I got to say is fuck Blizzard. And fuck GOMTV. Blizzard makes great games but their current policies make me sick.
Even despite Blizzard's harsh demands, KeSPA still worked to find common ground. But at this 4th negation session, where GomTV called into question the reason for the existence of the proteams, the rift between the parties has grown even wider. This disagreement may last even longer.
SKT1，KT等战队携手赞助商寻找对策 SKT1, KT, and other proteams unite with sponsors to develop response
SKT1, KT, STX, Woojin, and other proteams sponsors have formed an "Anti-Blizzard Alliance" [or Horde, haha]. During the August 26 negotiations, GomTV refuses to even acknowledge proteams and the SPL despite diligent effort of the proteams to find a resolution. Due to GomTV's unacceptable demands, the negotiations broke down, and each proteam representative relayed the results back to the teams. The teams, after receiving the report, have decided to unite as one to fight GomTV.
All proteams participating in the negotiations have decided to boycott any sort of Starcraft 2 activity until the situation is resolved. In addition, the current tournaments of MSL, OSL, and Prologue will forcefully continue [note: it's not clear if "current" refers to only this season or the tournaments in general]. In addition, OGN will not broadcast GSL. Even though OGN and GomTV already have a contract, if GomTV does not allow proteams, Korea broadcast eSport's defining feature, to continue, then OGN as a KeSPA member must stay in line with KeSPA. KeSPA's head official, SKT1's Cho Gye Hyeong [best effort] said, after hearing the decisions of the teams: all Korea broadcast eSport organizations must remain united and attack GomTV/Blizzard forcefully.
On September 07 2010 05:46 robertdinh wrote: Still going to see a lot of weaker ex-bw players and new age kiddies trying to chase after those GSL prize pools.
This is exactly what I wanted to happen though, I want kespa and all the pro teams to unite and boycott sc2, not because i think sc2 is not as good as bw for competitive play, but because of the way blizz and gom are trying to monopolize the korean esport scene.
Hopefully when this goes to court, the rulings are favorable for kespa and permanently squash any chance blizz has of taking over the esports scene.
Blizzard has become purely about the money (yes there was a time when they actually thoroughly cared about the game content before wow went into development) and I do not think they care enough about esports to have that passion and drive to evolve it in the spirit of competition. Everything they do would be corporate BS.
I also dislike how already in GSL you have tasteless and artosis mindlessly just promoting SC2. I think they were told that they had to zoom in on buildings and units more to show off the pretty graphics as a promotional tactic, and they keep spouting misinformation like saying GSL has the biggest prize money of any esports to date.
On September 07 2010 06:46 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: KeSPA's head official, SKT1's Cho Gye Hyeong [best effort] said, after hearing the decisions of the teams: all Korea broadcast eSport organizations must remain united and attack GomTV/Blizzard forcefully.
Only one house will prevail. Your battle for Dune begins... now.
i love how everyone suddenly starts caring abt proleague now that its threatened. even the players themselves admit they care more and practice harder for the indiv leagues. the only ppl that do care are managers cos PL is better selling power and the specialists that cant perform well in 2/3 matchups and need to worry more abt their place on the team then some ro16 qualifying hotshot.
OR im completely wrong and PL actually gets a bigger audience than the indivs
On September 07 2010 07:15 T0fuuu wrote: i love how everyone suddenly starts caring abt proleague now that its threatened. even the players themselves admit they care more and practice harder for the indiv leagues. the only ppl that do care are managers cos PL is better selling power and the specialists that cant perform well in 2/3 matchups and need to worry more abt their place on the team then some ro16 qualifying hotshot.
OR im completely wrong and PL actually gets a bigger audience than the indivs
I don't know who this everyone is that you're talking about, but a lot of people (myself included) have loved watching proleague for years now. Individual leagues are also great, but feature a very small % of top progamers. Proleague lets you see so many more progamers, and actually get attached to the teams.
And I can't for the life of me enjoy GSL, I tried. Tuned in, but kept turning off my stream after a few minutes, its just so bloody boring. Playing sc2 is one thing, but I can't get excited seeing "omg, this one player built up a ball of units" "oh wow, the other player built a bigger ball of units" "the one ball's composition hard counters the others! gg". -_-
I really want to just blame Bobby Kotick/Activision for all this...This can't be the same Blizzard. I hope their 3rd quarter profits or whatever from this year do not match expectations causing the shareholders to demand his head. Blizzard needs to fail a little bit so that this guy gets the axe. Anything to cause a huge shift in company policy would be great imo.
On September 07 2010 04:13 raga4ka wrote: GOMTV and Blizzard can go fuck them themselves for all i care , proleague has been here for 7 years and i don't see why it should change just because Starcraft 2 has been released .
Because GOMTV has the rights and Kespa doesn't. It's as simple as that. Kespa had first chance to negotiate and they fucked it up. It doesn't matter if Kespa thinks it's "unreasonable". They had no intention of developing SC2 as an esport or expanding to foreign markets like GOM is doing.
The original GomTV tournaments were fantastic, let's not forget that. We had English starcraft commentary streamed to our homes perfectly every Sunday. And what happened? Kespa used its muscle to break the tournament apart. That was incredibly unreasonable. Now the ball is in the other court and Kespa are acting like little pussies. Karma's a bitch.
On September 07 2010 07:15 T0fuuu wrote: i love how everyone suddenly starts caring abt proleague now that its threatened. even the players themselves admit they care more and practice harder for the indiv leagues. the only ppl that do care are managers cos PL is better selling power and the specialists that cant perform well in 2/3 matchups and need to worry more abt their place on the team then some ro16 qualifying hotshot.
OR im completely wrong and PL actually gets a bigger audience than the indivs
Wait, what? PL might get a smaller audience on a day-to-day basis given that it's 5 days a week unlike the individuals, but there's little doubt that modern PL is the backbone of the current BW pro scene.
Also, the majority of times players claim that they care more about PL than individuals. I'd say the ratio is something like 4 times out of 5 if not even better - you'll almost never hear someone say "I care more about individuals than PL". I don't always believe the players but I think a lot of them really do consider PL to be the most important thing.
Lastly the big point you seem to be missing is that regardless of whether or not individuals are "bigger" or "more important" than PL, the proscene in its current form CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT PROLEAGUE. You think there's going to be 12 teams with 10+ players each if all that exists is a 36 person OSL? PL is the reason why players are able to join teams, develop their skills, and eventually make it big. It often takes guys a year or more to build up the skills to compete in the individual leagues (look at Effort, who even lost a game to Tossgirl in GOM once). The whole point is that BW has finally reached a point where it's not just this mercenary prize chasing shitshow that other games are (including SC2 right now), and the existence of Proleague is THE reason for that.
On September 07 2010 07:15 T0fuuu wrote: i love how everyone suddenly starts caring abt proleague now that its threatened. even the players themselves admit they care more and practice harder for the indiv leagues. the only ppl that do care are managers cos PL is better selling power and the specialists that cant perform well in 2/3 matchups and need to worry more abt their place on the team then some ro16 qualifying hotshot.
OR im completely wrong and PL actually gets a bigger audience than the indivs
Of course there are a lot of audience. The reason foreigners don't watch them is because there are no English commentary.
For me, I watched at least 80% of Proleague matches with Chinese commentary in this 09/10 season. That's over 50% of all Proleague matches, because they always schedule two matches simultaneously on OGN and MBC. Chinese commentators can only comment on one set of matches.
And I love Proleague more than OSL or MSL. I like to see new players developing
On September 07 2010 04:13 raga4ka wrote: GOMTV and Blizzard can go fuck them themselves for all i care , proleague has been here for 7 years and i don't see why it should change just because Starcraft 2 has been released .
The original GomTV tournaments were fantastic, let's not forget that. We had English starcraft commentary streamed to our homes perfectly every Sunday. And what happened? Kespa used its muscle to break the tournament apart. That was incredibly unreasonable. Now the ball is in the other court and Kespa are acting like little pussies. Karma's a bitch.
No, the original GOMTV tournaments were fantastic for foreigners given that they had English commentary. Unfortunately we're the minority and they really weren't that good of tournaments from a Korean standpoint, which is the one that really matters.
Second of all, Kespa is acting like pussies? Have you even read the thread? Bliz/Gretech potentially want to kill PL and the proteams so that GSL can run uncontested. Karma's a bitch so pro BW should just die? What?
On September 07 2010 07:15 T0fuuu wrote: i love how everyone suddenly starts caring abt proleague now that its threatened. even the players themselves admit they care more and practice harder for the indiv leagues. the only ppl that do care are managers cos PL is better selling power and the specialists that cant perform well in 2/3 matchups and need to worry more abt their place on the team then some ro16 qualifying hotshot.
OR im completely wrong and PL actually gets a bigger audience than the indivs
Players have always put PL first.
Many players have said in interviews that if PL and Individual conflict, they will usually practice mostly for PL.
I remember Effort remarking that Iris mostly practiced for GOM back when they played in the semis season 3 and not PL and he was a bit upset about it haha.
This honestly seems kind of stupid.. they could easily have both SPL and GSL running concurrently and both have a pretty big audience, just air them one after the other on OGN and MSL. After all, OGN did agree to a contract before KeSPA stepped in. Right now, it's just a war where both sides end up losing.
On September 07 2010 07:15 T0fuuu wrote: i love how everyone suddenly starts caring abt proleague now that its threatened. even the players themselves admit they care more and practice harder for the indiv leagues. the only ppl that do care are managers cos PL is better selling power and the specialists that cant perform well in 2/3 matchups and need to worry more abt their place on the team then some ro16 qualifying hotshot.
OR im completely wrong and PL actually gets a bigger audience than the indivs
what? Correct me if Im wrong but the top priority of the players has and will always be the PL.
If the news about OGN not broadcasting GSL is true, I'd be pretty darn happy. I don't understand why Gom can't just take Kespa/MBC's payment for "broadcasting rights" and let PL go on. So your little GSL will have a little friendly competition; let the better game win.
On September 07 2010 07:22 Klive5ive wrote: Because GOMTV has the rights and Kespa doesn't. It's as simple as that.
That will be for a korean court to decide.
On September 07 2010 07:22 Klive5ive wrote: They had no intention of developing SC2 as an esport or expanding to foreign markets like GOM is doing.
Actually if it wasn't for the shit Blizzard pulled, and assuming good terms between the two I see no reason why KeSPA wouldn't have expanded to include SC2 as well. The teams (especially the richer ones like SKT and KT) would likely have added a SC2 team and a SC2 proleague/starleague could have been kicked off. The reason SC2 is being boycotted by KeSPA now is the result of the feud.
On September 07 2010 07:22 Klive5ive wrote: And what happened? Kespa used its muscle to break the tournament apart. That was incredibly unreasonable.
Ummm... What happened? a few of the teams pulled out because proleague is on 5 times a week and they preferred their players practicing for it. Face it, the GOMTV tournaments had such low audience in korea (they weren't even on TV ffs) that from a marketing perspective it wasn't as good of a time investment having your players worry about it as much. While you may have loved seeing Tasteless commentate, the teams don't really give a shit about him (teams that sponsor Korean cellphones for example don't really give a shit if they end up marketing to some schmuck in the US). The korean commentators for GOM were lousy as well. You forget that the korean esports structure is just that. The shit with KeSPA didn't actually hit the fan until 2009 (middle of season 3 of the GOMTV Intel Classic) when Blizzard interevened directly and became official sponsors of it.
Well, most of us saw this coming with gretech/blizzard's 'negotiation' techniques and tones. Try to force your way in without leaving a face-saving out for KESPA would only result in this kind of blowback and united front against the invading force.
On September 07 2010 04:13 raga4ka wrote: GOMTV and Blizzard can go fuck them themselves for all i care , proleague has been here for 7 years and i don't see why it should change just because Starcraft 2 has been released .
The original GomTV tournaments were fantastic, let's not forget that. We had English starcraft commentary streamed to our homes perfectly every Sunday. And what happened? Kespa used its muscle to break the tournament apart. That was incredibly unreasonable. Now the ball is in the other court and Kespa are acting like little pussies. Karma's a bitch.
No, the original GOMTV tournaments were fantastic for foreigners given that they had English commentary. Unfortunately we're the minority and they really weren't that good of tournaments from a Korean standpoint, which is the one that really matters.
Second of all, Kespa is acting like pussies? Have you even read the thread? Bliz/Gretech potentially want to kill PL and the proteams so that GSL can run uncontested. Karma's a bitch so pro BW should just die? What?
No, they don't want to kill PL they want the schedule changed. That is VERY different.
And how do you know the GomTV tournaments were bad from a Korean standpoint? They had some fantastic finals.
On September 07 2010 07:15 T0fuuu wrote: i love how everyone suddenly starts caring abt proleague now that its threatened. even the players themselves admit they care more and practice harder for the indiv leagues. the only ppl that do care are managers cos PL is better selling power and the specialists that cant perform well in 2/3 matchups and need to worry more abt their place on the team then some ro16 qualifying hotshot.
OR im completely wrong and PL actually gets a bigger audience than the indivs
If you are not even sure, why made a post ?
The Proleague is a joint venture between MBC, OGN, KeSPA and IEG ........ More games are played in the Proleague than all the other leagues combined, and the progamers themselves consider it to be the most important.
Source : liquidpedia
And in one of the OSL group selection, Flash clearly stated that he considers Proleague to be more important. Many SKT players (Fantasy, Bisu...) also said in the playoff last season that they only practiced for individual league in their spare time and focused only on Proleague. Individual leagues are only more important than Proleague when Proleague is in mid-season and their team is doing well.
And yes, I have read somewhere from a translated Fomos article that PL has a bigger audience than individual leagues, but now I failed to find the article. But the difference is obvious if we compare the audience in a PL Grand Final and the audience in a SL final.
On September 07 2010 07:22 Klive5ive wrote: They had no intention of developing SC2 as an esport or expanding to foreign markets like GOM is doing.
Actually if it wasn't for the shit Blizzard pulled, and assuming good terms between the two I see no reason why KeSPA wouldn't have expanded to include SC2 as well.
Well then why didn't they accept the deal that Gretech took? They got first chance to negotiate and failed miserably.
On September 07 2010 07:22 Klive5ive wrote: And what happened? Kespa used its muscle to break the tournament apart. That was incredibly unreasonable.
Ummm... What happened? a few of the teams pulled out because proleague is on 5 times a week and they preferred their players practicing for it. Face it, the GOMTV tournaments had such low audience in korea (they weren't even on TV ffs).
Kespa refused to sanction the tournament from the start. They never even attempted to expand to the foreign markets with their MSL/OSL.
Just to clarify I think Blizzard has been unreasonable from the start too. They should have left Broodwar alone and negotiated purely for SC2 rights. But now Gom has the rights they are entitled to negotiate and they probably already have bad blood with Kespa.
On September 07 2010 04:13 raga4ka wrote: GOMTV and Blizzard can go fuck them themselves for all i care , proleague has been here for 7 years and i don't see why it should change just because Starcraft 2 has been released .
The original GomTV tournaments were fantastic, let's not forget that. We had English starcraft commentary streamed to our homes perfectly every Sunday. And what happened? Kespa used its muscle to break the tournament apart. That was incredibly unreasonable. Now the ball is in the other court and Kespa are acting like little pussies. Karma's a bitch.
No, the original GOMTV tournaments were fantastic for foreigners given that they had English commentary. Unfortunately we're the minority and they really weren't that good of tournaments from a Korean standpoint, which is the one that really matters.
Second of all, Kespa is acting like pussies? Have you even read the thread? Bliz/Gretech potentially want to kill PL and the proteams so that GSL can run uncontested. Karma's a bitch so pro BW should just die? What?
No, they don't want to kill PL they want the schedule changed. That is VERY different.
And how do you know the GomTV tournaments were bad from a Korean standpoint? They had some fantastic finals.
I'm basing it off of what Korean friends have told me, and what posters like MrHoon and Milkis have written. People didn't care at all about GOM in Korea and the commentary was supposedly terrible relative to OGN/MBC. Personally I really enjoyed GOM and was sad to see the league die, but that doesn't affect the overall reality of it.
On September 07 2010 07:34 Klive5ive wrote: No, they don't want to kill PL they want the schedule changed. That is VERY different.
And how do you know the GomTV tournaments were bad from a Korean standpoint? They had some fantastic finals.
Wanting SPL off primetime because they can't compete straight up is trying to muscle proleauge off (not to mention the rest of the demands).
And we know because they had shitty live attendance in a tiny location, and poor viewing numbers from the korean community (which is where the focus is from the players, teams and sponsors). The players care for their home base, you will always come second.
Kespa refused to sanction the tournament from the start. They never even attempted to expand to the foreign markets with their MSL/OSL.
Never? Then why this OSL final will be held in Shanghai, China?
Why they even hire idra, a noob from their points of view. And Nony. Several years ago, SKT1 hired Legend and PJ from China. But there is no success for these players.
On September 07 2010 07:38 Klive5ive wrote: Kespa refused to sanction the tournament from the start. They never even attempted to expand to the foreign markets with their MSL/OSL.
KeSPA didn't actually force anything until mid-season 3 (hence no season 4).
And do you even know what KeSPA stands for?? their number 1 priority is and will always be the korean fans and public. And they actually are working towards steps to go outside of Korea, as seen with the OSL finals being in Shanghai as well as the STX masters in China. China is the only other place in the world with a decent semi-pro bw community, so they are a logical choice for a partnership.
People who say individual leagues are more important than proleagues haven't watched enough professional broodwar or understand asian culture at all. The korean culture always place the merits and accomplishment of their team and family honor over their personal ones. Jaedong would have gladly given up batoo OSL to have won the proleague championship vs sktt1.
On September 07 2010 07:38 Klive5ive wrote: Kespa refused to sanction the tournament from the start. They never even attempted to expand to the foreign markets with their MSL/OSL.
KeSPA didn't actually force anything until mid-season 3 (hence no season 4). And do you even know what KeSPA stands for?? their number 1 priority is and will always be the korean fans and public. And they are working towards steps to go outside of Korea, as seen with the OSL finals being in Shanghai as well as the STX masters in China. China is the only other place in the world with a decent semi-pro bw community, so they are a logical choice for a partnership.
It all comes back to the point that they had chance to negotiate and didn't. They didn't try hard enough to expand. GomTV had intel and blizzard sponsoring their tournaments and they did well enough to continue for 3 seasons.
Of course I know what KeSPA stands for but Starcraft isn't just about Korea anymore.
Isn't it very obvious those 3 part articles are over the top? When will we see real information about this?
Or... did Kespa break another NDA? It's really frustrating hearing all these media and still not knowing what to think. I get a feeling I'm getting played by the media or something. Kespa pulled strings before, I don't like the feeling about Kespa being the kind of organization that can do this type of thing. I have yet to hear much from gomTV. I wish Kespa can keep things professional. But push comes to shove... sigh.
I'm sure the players themselves value a PL win more than an individual league title, but when the fans judge the legacy/impact of a player MSL and OSL medals are what really matters.
KeSPA never killed off GOM, it was the teams and their lack of participation because they didn't want their players to have a distraction (GSL).
And what the fuck are you saying KeSPA didn't try hard enough to expand? They fucking basically created the IeSF, International eSports Federation, and they invited foreign players into team houses. It's not their fault that these foreigners basically failed on their own merits, unable to compete at all w/ the Koreans. Plus, KeSPA is for the KOREANS, so its not their responsibility to look over and nurture the growth of China's, Germany's or USA's eSports scene.
On September 07 2010 07:48 Klive5ive wrote: It all comes back to the point that they had chance to negotiate and didn't.
While we're not privy to the exact negotiations over the years, Blizzard's demands (that did become public) were unreasonable, and pretty insane for a structure like KeSPA to agree to. Gretech/GOM agreed cause they are nobodys and have nothing to lose really. Blizz demanded a cut from league sponsors, team sponsors and broadcasters, the power to cancel leagues at will should they see it fit, power over player's contracts, the ability to reschedule players schedule around Blizzard's events, auditing KeSPA's finances, etc. Essentially, Blizzard wanted power over the entire structure while not actually contributing to it at all. Gretech on the other hand has GOM Player and GOMTV, and thats it. They have nothing to lose in the deal because they have nothing related to esports to begin with. They have no teams, no large korean sponsors, no player contracts. They can only stand to benefit of a deal, regardless of what it is.
On September 07 2010 07:15 T0fuuu wrote: i love how everyone suddenly starts caring abt proleague now that its threatened. even the players themselves admit they care more and practice harder for the indiv leagues. the only ppl that do care are managers cos PL is better selling power and the specialists that cant perform well in 2/3 matchups and need to worry more abt their place on the team then some ro16 qualifying hotshot.
OR im completely wrong and PL actually gets a bigger audience than the indivs
Players have always put PL first.
Many players have said in interviews that if PL and Individual conflict, they will usually practice mostly for PL.
I remember Effort remarking that Iris mostly practiced for GOM back when they played in the semis season 3 and not PL and he was a bit upset about it haha.
I don't even think this is an issue, because who would come out in an interview and say, "hey, I look out for me first and not my team." Where do you think the majority of their practice partners come from?
On September 07 2010 07:50 teamsolid wrote: I'm sure the players themselves value a PL win more than an individual league title, but when the fans judge the legacy/impact of a player MSL and OSL medals are what really matters.
Yes, that's the culture differences we are talking about. They do not value as much as Americans for individual success.
On September 07 2010 07:55 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA never killed off GOM, it was the teams and their lack of participation because they didn't want their players to have a distraction (GSL).
And what the fuck are you saying KeSPA didn't try hard enough to expand? They fucking basically created the IeSF, International eSports Federation, and they invited foreign players into team houses. It's not their fault that these foreigners basically failed on their own merits, unable to compete at all w/ the Koreans. Plus, KeSPA is for the KOREANS, so its not their responsibility to look over and nurture the growth of China's, Germany's or USA's eSports scene.
I think from the other thread... Kespa demanded money for broadcasting their players... but gomTV said they didn't have the rights. And then thats when the players pulled out. I don't know what you're talking about? (GSL????) And that led to gom being out of business. (sorry to repeat and making a history post)
I remember watching avertec intel classic season 3 effort vs jaedong, and jaedong just threw that game like it was nothing. He had a shot at finals too... so sad. check that game out, its almost as bad as a match fixing
On September 07 2010 07:55 ArvickHero wrote: KeSPA never killed off GOM, it was the teams and their lack of participation because they didn't want their players to have a distraction (GSL).
And what the fuck are you saying KeSPA didn't try hard enough to expand? They fucking basically created the IeSF, International eSports Federation, and they invited foreign players into team houses. It's not their fault that these foreigners basically failed on their own merits, unable to compete at all w/ the Koreans. Plus, KeSPA is for the KOREANS, so its not their responsibility to look over and nurture the growth of China's, Germany's or USA's eSports scene.
I think from the other thread... Kespa demanded money for broadcasting their players... but gomTV said they didn't have the rights. And then thats when the players pulled out. I don't know what you're talking about? (GSL????) And that led to gom being out of business.
I remember watching avertec intel classic season 3 effort vs jaedong, and jaedong just threw that game like it was nothing. He had a shot at finals too... so sad. check that game out, its almost as bad as a match fixing
Or maybe he's too tired and didn't have enough practice, he was a one man team and had the other 2 individual leagues to deal with.
Erm.. no, just teams pulled their support from GSL because they felt GSL was an unnecessary distraction. KeSPA gave their seal of approval in Season 2 I believe, but pulled it in Season 3 because not every team was participating. Even those who stayed in GSL Season 3, most progamers barely practiced for it at all because it was at the very last thing on their priority list (Iris being one of those exceptions).
On September 07 2010 07:48 Klive5ive wrote: Of course I know what KeSPA stands for but Starcraft isn't just about Korea anymore.
So you're saying that a korean entity formed by some of the largest korean sponsors shouldn't look out for korean interests... interesting.
You know, if SC isn't about Korea, then why the fuck doesn't your precious Blizzard try to create it into an esport outside of Korea? oh yeah because its not that simple. Artificially creating what has taken years to develop is insanely risky. To create a true esport (not just an individual league like GSL), you'll need to find players who will commit to contracts, find them sponsors to shell out big money for housing/food/equipment/uniforms/full-time coaching staff/transportation, negotiate with TV networks who will guarentee to provide airtime on a regular basis and find sponsors for those leagues. If any of those elements should fail, the entire structure collapses, and as such its very risky and very time consuming.
Blizzard has never (not once in the past 10 years) attempted to develop any sort of organized esport in Europe or the US. They let KeSPA build up in korea, get lots of fans, and then tried to push their way in. So if you like to complain so much about why KeSPA hasn't cared enough for foreign interests, why hasn't blizzard?
Yes! Proteams and sponsors boycotting Blizzard and SC2 together. That's what you get for trying to monopolize something that doesn't belong to you Blizzard. Now you will lose popularity for your inferior tournament along with SC2 sales.
On September 07 2010 08:11 ArvickHero wrote: Erm.. no, just teams pulled their support from GSL because they felt GSL was an unnecessary distraction. KeSPA gave their seal of approval in Season 2 I believe, but pulled it in Season 3 because not every team was participating. Even those who stayed in GSL Season 3, most progamers barely practiced for it at all because it was at the very last thing on their priority list (Iris being one of those exceptions).
GSL as in... Global Starcraft 2 League?
I'm gunna assume you're saying gomTV star league then.
Well for one thing, I've never seen Jaedong like that, even if he had a lot on his plate. As you can see, he doesn't give up even when he has WCG final, MSL final, OSL ro4... Just neva thought that would happen to my favorite player.. And if they did pull out for that reason, thats like a major 'screw you' on the whole foreign scene as it was the only leagues that were in touch with english-speaking community.
Anyways, this is going to be terrible if the pro teams start boycotting? For one thing, we may lose SC2, and for another, it will be too late for BW. I guess scheduling a different time slot for PL might make too much of an impact on the whole scene
Lets just hope gomTV plays its cards right. I can't even tell if its just a bluff.. but kespa's threat is a high stake...
On September 07 2010 07:38 Klive5ive wrote: Kespa refused to sanction the tournament from the start. They never even attempted to expand to the foreign markets with their MSL/OSL.
KeSPA didn't actually force anything until mid-season 3 (hence no season 4). And do you even know what KeSPA stands for?? their number 1 priority is and will always be the korean fans and public. And they are working towards steps to go outside of Korea, as seen with the OSL finals being in Shanghai as well as the STX masters in China. China is the only other place in the world with a decent semi-pro bw community, so they are a logical choice for a partnership.
It all comes back to the point that they had chance to negotiate and didn't. They didn't try hard enough to expand. GomTV had intel and blizzard sponsoring their tournaments and they did well enough to continue for 3 seasons.
Of course I know what KeSPA stands for but Starcraft isn't just about Korea anymore.
Did you even follow the negotiations before Gretech signed the deal? The terms Blizzard had given to KeSPA were totally ridiculous. It's a given that those Blizzard offered to Gretech were much more lenient, as well as the fact that Gretech's aspirations weren't even half as big as KeSPA (remaining the governing body for BW esports in Korea and maybe even expanding to SC2). Gretech was given a 3 year contract just like that, while KeSPA were supposed to accept a 1 years contract so that it's not even beneficial for them to invest into SC2?
Face it, Gretech is comfortable with being a mere puppet, while KeSPA is not. Not to mention Gretech has no idea how to make SC2 esports work (as they obviously do not understand how crucial proteams are to esports).
This is good news. Pro-teams and their sponsors (many of whom are giant Korean companies) are united against Blizzard and Gom. Pro-teams, especially the pro league, are great advertising venue's for them, and at the point where Blizz/Gom not only want to kill BW and prevent teams from reforming in Sc2, they've got a strong incentive to win this battle. When this gets to court, there will be no contest between how much money and influence they can bring to bear. As far as i can tell, at least 5 of the pro teams are sponsored by Chaebol (SKT, KT, Samsung, STX, and CJ), another 2 are sponsored by major television companies (MBC and Hite), most of the rest are sponsored by large companies, and ACE is sponsored by the fucking government itself. Blizz and Gom are fighting out of their league.
On September 07 2010 08:29 deafhobbit wrote: This is good news. Pro-teams and their sponsors (many of whom are giant Korean companies) are united against Blizzard and Gom. Pro-teams, especially the pro league, are great advertising venue's for them, and at the point where Blizz/Gom not only want to kill BW and prevent teams from reforming in Sc2, they've got a strong incentive to win this battle. When this gets to court, there will be no contest between how much money and influence they can bring to bear. As far as i can tell, at least 5 of the pro teams are sponsored by Chaebol (SKT, KT, Samsung, STX, and CJ), another 2 are sponsored by major television companies (MBC and Hite), most of the rest are sponsored by large companies, and ACE is sponsored by the fucking government itself. Blizz and Gom are fighting out of their league.
Assuming these groups are united, Blizzard has no chance of taking this to court. Big companies have a lot of influence on the courts and politicians in Korea and it's more than likely that they will just tell Blizzard and Gretech to get lost. I wonder what Blizzard would do in this case though. Furthermore, I think Korean courts would lean towards favouring Korea corporations rather than American ones.
Edit: it's obvious that Blizzard will know much more about this than me though.
On September 07 2010 08:12 moopie wrote: Blizzard has never (not once in the past 10 years) attempted to develop any sort of organized esport in Europe or the US. They let KeSPA build up in korea, get lots of fans, and then tried to push their way in. So if you like to complain so much about why KeSPA hasn't cared enough for foreign interests, why hasn't blizzard?
They do run tournaments for WC3 and WoW. Starting from Blizzcon, also SC2.
On September 07 2010 08:12 moopie wrote: Blizzard has never (not once in the past 10 years) attempted to develop any sort of organized esport in Europe or the US. They let KeSPA build up in korea, get lots of fans, and then tried to push their way in. So if you like to complain so much about why KeSPA hasn't cared enough for foreign interests, why hasn't blizzard?
They do run tournaments for WC3 and WoW. Starting from Blizzcon, also SC2.
Blizzcon is as far away from an esport as possible. Games at Blizzcon are more or less showmatches to generate interest in the game, and they occur once a year... Blizzards other tournaments like WoW's recent announcement of the $200,000 arena tournament, which btw costs $20 per applicant to register, so its actually going to make money for them in the longrun even after the prizepools are few and far between, and again have nothing to do with esports or professional gaming on any reasonable level. I expect the same shit to happen with the SC2 proleague ladder.
On September 07 2010 08:29 deafhobbit wrote: This is good news. Pro-teams and their sponsors (many of whom are giant Korean companies) are united against Blizzard and Gom. Pro-teams, especially the pro league, are great advertising venue's for them, and at the point where Blizz/Gom not only want to kill BW and prevent teams from reforming in Sc2, they've got a strong incentive to win this battle. When this gets to court, there will be no contest between how much money and influence they can bring to bear. As far as i can tell, at least 5 of the pro teams are sponsored by Chaebol (SKT, KT, Samsung, STX, and CJ), another 2 are sponsored by major television companies (MBC and Hite), most of the rest are sponsored by large companies, and ACE is sponsored by the fucking government itself. Blizz and Gom are fighting out of their league.
Assuming these groups are united, Blizzard has no chance of taking this to court. Big companies have a lot of influence on the courts and politicians in Korea and it's more than likely that they will just tell Blizzard and Gretech to get lost. I wonder what Blizzard would do in this case though. Furthermore, I think Korean courts would lean towards favouring Korea corporations rather than American ones.
Edit: it's obvious that Blizzard will know much more about this than me though.
How does IP rights come into play here? Isn't it an international law?
Also, this is just thoughts, but imagine Boxer giving a public speech "Please don't play SC2." I mean how jaw-dropping would that be? A guy that had no bias against games of sorts and always wanting to take e-sports world-wide. This is gunna be crazzzy.
On September 07 2010 08:12 moopie wrote: Blizzard has never (not once in the past 10 years) attempted to develop any sort of organized esport in Europe or the US. They let KeSPA build up in korea, get lots of fans, and then tried to push their way in. So if you like to complain so much about why KeSPA hasn't cared enough for foreign interests, why hasn't blizzard?
They do run tournaments for WC3 and WoW. Starting from Blizzcon, also SC2.
Blizzcon is as far away from an esport as possible. Games at Blizzcon are more or less showmatches to generate interest in the game, and they occur once a year... Blizzards other tournaments like WoW's recent announcement of the $200,000 arena tournament, which btw costs $20 per applicant to register, so its actually going to make money for them in the longrun even after the prizepools are few and far between, and again have nothing to do with esports or professional gaming on any reasonable level. I expect the same shit to happen with the SC2 proleague ladder.
There's prizes for the proleague once a year, so I guess it doesn't count as an e-sport by your logic. Play games + have prize money + broadcast = ESPORTS.
On September 07 2010 08:12 moopie wrote: Blizzard has never (not once in the past 10 years) attempted to develop any sort of organized esport in Europe or the US. They let KeSPA build up in korea, get lots of fans, and then tried to push their way in. So if you like to complain so much about why KeSPA hasn't cared enough for foreign interests, why hasn't blizzard?
They do run tournaments for WC3 and WoW. Starting from Blizzcon, also SC2.
Blizzcon is as far away from an esport as possible. Games at Blizzcon are more or less showmatches to generate interest in the game, and they occur once a year... Blizzards other tournaments like WoW's recent announcement of the $200,000 arena tournament, which btw costs $20 per applicant to register, so its actually going to make money for them in the longrun even after the prizepools are few and far between, and again have nothing to do with esports or professional gaming on any reasonable level. I expect the same shit to happen with the SC2 proleague ladder.
There's prizes for the proleague once a year, so I guess it doesn't count as an e-sport by your logic. Play games + have prize money + broadcast = ESPORTS.
Tournament that lasts a few days vs tournament that is played 5 days a week (most weeks) for a year. Tournament with random people vs tournament with professional teams who train every day all year long. Online tournament vs live events with semis and finals hosted at very large televised venues.
On September 07 2010 08:12 moopie wrote: Blizzard has never (not once in the past 10 years) attempted to develop any sort of organized esport in Europe or the US. They let KeSPA build up in korea, get lots of fans, and then tried to push their way in. So if you like to complain so much about why KeSPA hasn't cared enough for foreign interests, why hasn't blizzard?
They do run tournaments for WC3 and WoW. Starting from Blizzcon, also SC2.
Blizzcon is as far away from an esport as possible. Games at Blizzcon are more or less showmatches to generate interest in the game, and they occur once a year... Blizzards other tournaments like WoW's recent announcement of the $200,000 arena tournament, which btw costs $20 per applicant to register, so its actually going to make money for them in the longrun even after the prizepools are few and far between, and again have nothing to do with esports or professional gaming on any reasonable level. I expect the same shit to happen with the SC2 proleague ladder.
There's prizes for the proleague once a year, so I guess it doesn't count as an e-sport by your logic. Play games + have prize money + broadcast = ESPORTS.
It seems to me that you didn't read his post at all and just replied randomly.
Electronic Sports, abbreviated e-Sports is used as a general term to describe the play of video games competitively.
... are we seriously going down this road? lol.
So every game with any PvP aspect is an esport now? so you want to use a definition according to which there are somewhere around 100,000 esports around?
You want to argue semantics on a forum where that term means a specific thing?
On September 07 2010 08:12 moopie wrote: Blizzard has never (not once in the past 10 years) attempted to develop any sort of organized esport in Europe or the US. They let KeSPA build up in korea, get lots of fans, and then tried to push their way in. So if you like to complain so much about why KeSPA hasn't cared enough for foreign interests, why hasn't blizzard?
They do run tournaments for WC3 and WoW. Starting from Blizzcon, also SC2.
Blizzcon is as far away from an esport as possible. Games at Blizzcon are more or less showmatches to generate interest in the game, and they occur once a year... Blizzards other tournaments like WoW's recent announcement of the $200,000 arena tournament, which btw costs $20 per applicant to register, so its actually going to make money for them in the longrun even after the prizepools are few and far between, and again have nothing to do with esports or professional gaming on any reasonable level. I expect the same shit to happen with the SC2 proleague ladder.
There's prizes for the proleague once a year, so I guess it doesn't count as an e-sport by your logic. Play games + have prize money + broadcast = ESPORTS.
Tournament that lasts a few days vs tournament that is played 5 days a week (most weeks) for a year. Tournament with random people vs tournament with professional teams who train every day all year long. Online tournament vs live events with semis and finals hosted at very large televised venues.
Try again.
all games start somewhere bubs. The future for sc2 Out weighs the future for BW. No one can deny how great bw is/was. But for esports to grow beyond a small niche.. sc2 needs to happen. and imo its a great successor
On September 07 2010 08:12 moopie wrote: Blizzard has never (not once in the past 10 years) attempted to develop any sort of organized esport in Europe or the US. They let KeSPA build up in korea, get lots of fans, and then tried to push their way in. So if you like to complain so much about why KeSPA hasn't cared enough for foreign interests, why hasn't blizzard?
They do run tournaments for WC3 and WoW. Starting from Blizzcon, also SC2.
Blizzcon is as far away from an esport as possible. Games at Blizzcon are more or less showmatches to generate interest in the game, and they occur once a year... Blizzards other tournaments like WoW's recent announcement of the $200,000 arena tournament, which btw costs $20 per applicant to register, so its actually going to make money for them in the longrun even after the prizepools are few and far between, and again have nothing to do with esports or professional gaming on any reasonable level. I expect the same shit to happen with the SC2 proleague ladder.
There's prizes for the proleague once a year, so I guess it doesn't count as an e-sport by your logic. Play games + have prize money + broadcast = ESPORTS.
Tournament that lasts a few days vs tournament that is played 5 days a week (most weeks) for a year. Tournament with random people vs tournament with professional teams who train every day all year long. Online tournament vs live events with semis and finals hosted at very large televised venues.
Try again.
all games start somewhere bubs. The future for sc2 Out weighs the future for BW. No one can deny how great bw is/was. But for esports to grow beyond a small niche.. sc2 needs to happen. and imo its a great successor
That sounds familiar... oh wait, that's what they said about War3 when it came out as well haha.
BW isn't about the game anymore, it's about the players and personalities - it's the same reason people still play chess and follow regular sports. The games been figured out, more or less, but we follow them for the personalities.
On September 07 2010 08:59 Teddyman wrote: I'll let wikipedia try again:
Electronic Sports, abbreviated e-Sports is used as a general term to describe the play of video games competitively.
... are we seriously going down this road? lol.
So every game with any PvP aspect is an esport now? so you want to use a definition according to which there are somewhere around 100,000 esports around?
You want to argue semantics on a forum where that term means a specific thing?
On September 07 2010 08:11 ArvickHero wrote: Erm.. no, just teams pulled their support from GSL because they felt GSL was an unnecessary distraction. KeSPA gave their seal of approval in Season 2 I believe, but pulled it in Season 3 because not every team was participating. Even those who stayed in GSL Season 3, most progamers barely practiced for it at all because it was at the very last thing on their priority list (Iris being one of those exceptions).
Kespa essentially is the teams.
The reason GomTV struggled to gain Kespa support for the Intel Classic league was because MBC/OGN being teams/kespa board members/league operators and having hugely conflicting interests actively opposed it. They own the two big leagues, why would they want more competition?
And even when they did get Kespa support and were officially a league, those teams as well as several others (Estro, SKT, not sure who else) never allowed their players to participate
So to suggest they ever truly had the "seal of approval" of kespa would be unanimous support by all teams, they never got that. Kespa and the pro teams are not mutually exclusive.
And it was never about players with too much to practice for, there's way more small salary players than big ones who aren't necessarily qualified for the other individual leagues who would love a crack at another big tournament win but their teams said no because of highly political reasons, not in their interests. If your big stars have too much on your plate fine, but disallowing your entire roster and effectively boycotting the league? "Kespa seal of approval"
On September 07 2010 08:12 moopie wrote: Blizzard has never (not once in the past 10 years) attempted to develop any sort of organized esport in Europe or the US. They let KeSPA build up in korea, get lots of fans, and then tried to push their way in. So if you like to complain so much about why KeSPA hasn't cared enough for foreign interests, why hasn't blizzard?
They do run tournaments for WC3 and WoW. Starting from Blizzcon, also SC2.
Blizzcon is as far away from an esport as possible. Games at Blizzcon are more or less showmatches to generate interest in the game, and they occur once a year... Blizzards other tournaments like WoW's recent announcement of the $200,000 arena tournament, which btw costs $20 per applicant to register, so its actually going to make money for them in the longrun even after the prizepools are few and far between, and again have nothing to do with esports or professional gaming on any reasonable level. I expect the same shit to happen with the SC2 proleague ladder.
There's prizes for the proleague once a year, so I guess it doesn't count as an e-sport by your logic. Play games + have prize money + broadcast = ESPORTS.
Tournament that lasts a few days vs tournament that is played 5 days a week (most weeks) for a year. Tournament with random people vs tournament with professional teams who train every day all year long. Online tournament vs live events with semis and finals hosted at very large televised venues.
Try again.
all games start somewhere bubs. The future for sc2 Out weighs the future for BW. No one can deny how great bw is/was. But for esports to grow beyond a small niche.. sc2 needs to happen. and imo its a great successor
Blizzard is promoting the fuck out of SC2 with tournaments and crap because the game sells for $60 a copy and additional $120 for future expansions. They don't care about BW because it doesn't make money selling BW copies anymore. So by your logic of trusting Blizzard with e-sports, anything involving SC2 would be shut down instantly as soon as they come out with SC3 10 years down the road, then they will switch to their new milk machine that is SC3.
On September 07 2010 08:48 Doughboy wrote: In a worst case scenario, is OGN capable of doing PL by themselves? I know sort've co-hosted PL in a sense, but can't OGN still do PL?
Hi Doughboy I am pretty sure that in the worst case scenario when an agreement cannot be made and if Blizzard/Gretech is still keen on destroying PL and the proteams, the ministry of culture will jump in and ensure the continuity of the Korean pro-scene.
It's a potential job loss for more than 500 people (much more if we count everyone involved in the scene), the destruction of an industry and a potential large public discontent. That is definitely the kind of thing that the government cannot let happen.
I kind of hoping that it will happen that way, because Kespa is just too weak to control a popular sport like Starcraft, it should be controlled and protected by the government (which is something that Blizzard and Gretech do not want to mess with ...<cough> 18+ rating <cough>).
This whole thing is like the isreali palistine conflict. Both sides need to come to the table and sacrifice things fast. Not because one side is right or wrong but because if they dont the whole ship is going down.
Seriously, wtf Blizzard/Gretech. You guys can't just barge in Korea E-Sports and expect to topple its foundations. As it was said before, pro-teams define Broodwar. The Korean and Asian culture revolves around the unit as a whole, not on the individual. Please just try to be more negotiable, instead of being a selfish douchebag.
Just wanted to chime in about blizzard, the biggest attempt they've made at esports is the wow arena tourney. As someone else said they charge 20 dollars per account for this tourney, and it is well worth the 200k they invest when you consider the fee they charge + the advertising they get out there (wow as an esport is heavily spectated despite being imba and bad)
However, blizzard's support when it comes to running these tourneys is awful, from tourney realms glitching and spamming the same map over and over for long periods of time (can really skew results) to pets that glitch on certain maps, blizzard in years has not even attempted to fix such issues.
They do not balance their classes around esports, so it is really a giant crapshoot season to season which comp is dominant.
How can an esport be taken seriously when some seasons you have comps that are so overpowered even at the top level that they can just tunnel down a target within the first 30 seconds of the game, over and over again, with some maps having it happen within like 15 seconds.
Here's my "optimal" solution so it doesn't seem like I'm just picking on random arguments:
Negotiations fail, Ministry of Culture arbitrator steps in. Korea starts forced "bulk licensing" of games for eSports. What I mean is the same way a restaurant/bar/cafe can pay a monthly fee to use the recording industry's music in the EU, a TV channel or (commercial) stream can pay a fee based on the duration they broadcast and the size of the audience to use a game. KeSPA is replaced by a league organization free of corporate influence. A real players' organization is created to protect their interests. In this universe, horses are also unicorns that poop rainbows.
actually, when it comes to alternative solutions what about making a bw clone and call it something else? like SpaceWars or WarSpace or WarStar or something. exactly like bw except the models are different and theres no campaign.
On September 07 2010 09:35 seRapH wrote: actually, when it comes to alternative solutions what about making a bw clone and call it something else? like SpaceWars or WarSpace or WarStar or something. exactly like bw except the models are different and theres no campaign.
There is a legal principle in common law called Adverse Possession which seems to fit this case pretty well. I have no idea if it has any legal application in this particular instance, but much of the idea around it is relevant here.
Basically, it sets a statute of limitations on claiming ownership on something someone else is using. That may seem weird, but it really does make sense the more you get into it.
A friend of mine used it in court once. A developer destroyed part of her property because it encroached on the developer's land, so she went to court and proved it was a case of adverse possession, so he repaid for the damage, and she got the land.
It just seems absurd to me that Blizzard can ignore broadcast of BW for many years and then then suddenly claim ownership and destroy the eSports scene. I'm no fan of Kespa, but under the circumstances, this seems like a real injustice what Blizzard/Gretech are doing.
On September 07 2010 09:52 SimonB wrote: There is a legal principle in common law called Adverse Possession which seems to fit this case pretty well. I have no idea if it has any legal application in this particular instance, but much of the idea around it is relevant here.
Basically, it sets a statute of limitations on claiming ownership on something someone else is using. That may seem weird, but it really does make sense the more you get into it.
A friend of mine used it in court once. A developer destroyed part of her property because it encroached on the developer's land, so she went to court and proved it was a case of adverse possession, so he repaid for the damage, and she got the land.
It just seems absurd to me that Blizzard can ignore broadcast of BW for many years and then then suddenly claim ownership and destroy the eSports scene. I'm no fan of Kespa, but under the circumstances, this seems like a real injustice what Blizzard/Gretech are doing.
In real estate, that works when it's over 20 years(7 years in some state) to my knowledge.
Woa woa woah hold your anger people. You are reading a translated version of a unsourced article in Chinese about a very complicated and controversial matter in a different country.
On September 07 2010 09:52 SimonB wrote: There is a legal principle in common law called Adverse Possession which seems to fit this case pretty well. I have no idea if it has any legal application in this particular instance, but much of the idea around it is relevant here.
Basically, it sets a statute of limitations on claiming ownership on something someone else is using. That may seem weird, but it really does make sense the more you get into it.
A friend of mine used it in court once. A developer destroyed part of her property because it encroached on the developer's land, so she went to court and proved it was a case of adverse possession, so he repaid for the damage, and she got the land.
It just seems absurd to me that Blizzard can ignore broadcast of BW for many years and then then suddenly claim ownership and destroy the eSports scene. I'm no fan of Kespa, but under the circumstances, this seems like a real injustice what Blizzard/Gretech are doing.
In real estate, that works when it's over 20 years(7 years in some state) to my knowledge.
You guys are discussing American law, because............?
Common law, and I imagine it is generally signed into international agreements.
I doubt it really applies here because they probably have highly-paid lawyers who would've tried it already if it was viable at all in this instance, but the concept behind it is relevant.
Apparently Ongamenet left partnership with GomTV. According to the article, GSL is not on the Ongamenet's broadcasting schedule and as there were not a single acknowledgement of GSL from Ongamenet, it is speculated that they are on unfriendly terms.
Apparently Ongamenet left partnership with GomTV. According to the article, GSL is not on the Ongamenet's broadcasting schedule and as there were not a single acknowledgement of GSL from Ongamenet, it is speculated that they are on unfriendly terms.
wow what happens if Blizzard loses broadcasting stations?
On September 07 2010 11:17 EleanorRIgby wrote: blizzard is gonna bring down the hammer soon
korean netizens gonna bring down the hammer soon imo
this is all REALLY disappointing. especially because at first Gretech appeared to be the good guys saying that they wanted to negotiate with the OGN/MBC/KeSPA. Gretech willing to kill off the SPL just for GSL. Sad.
On September 07 2010 04:13 raga4ka wrote: GOMTV and Blizzard can go fuck them themselves for all i care , proleague has been here for 7 years and i don't see why it should change just because Starcraft 2 has been released .
The original GomTV tournaments were fantastic, let's not forget that. We had English starcraft commentary streamed to our homes perfectly every Sunday. And what happened? Kespa used its muscle to break the tournament apart. That was incredibly unreasonable. Now the ball is in the other court and Kespa are acting like little pussies. Karma's a bitch.
No, the original GOMTV tournaments were fantastic for foreigners given that they had English commentary. Unfortunately we're the minority and they really weren't that good of tournaments from a Korean standpoint, which is the one that really matters.
Second of all, Kespa is acting like pussies? Have you even read the thread? Bliz/Gretech potentially want to kill PL and the proteams so that GSL can run uncontested. Karma's a bitch so pro BW should just die? What?
No, they don't want to kill PL they want the schedule changed. That is VERY different.
And how do you know the GomTV tournaments were bad from a Korean standpoint? They had some fantastic finals.
who are you kidding? gom wants bw dead to give GSL a chance.
how desperate are they? don't they believe that the quality of their game will lead to their success? all this shows is that they don't believe their game will fare well in the korean market and are using all their power and dirty tactics to try to destroy their competition.
who knows what other terms gretech *cough* blizzard korea *cough* proposed? convert proleague fully to SC2 in 1 years time?
Apparently Ongamenet left partnership with GomTV. According to the article, GSL is not on the Ongamenet's broadcasting schedule and as there were not a single acknowledgement of GSL from Ongamenet, it is speculated that they are on unfriendly terms.
Things are finally looking up for the brood war. :D
Just need the government to side with KESPA and maybe we can get back on track.
Apparently Ongamenet left partnership with GomTV. According to the article, GSL is not on the Ongamenet's broadcasting schedule and as there were not a single acknowledgement of GSL from Ongamenet, it is speculated that they are on unfriendly terms.
I don't know if I feel good that OGN left, or bad that BW and SC2 still can't cooperate, but for now, if it means higher chance of more BW, then WOOT, OGN!
So by your logic of trusting Blizzard with e-sports, anything involving SC2 would be shut down instantly as soon as they come out with SC3 10 years down the road, then they will switch to their new milk machine that is SC3.
If blizzard gets its wish and is able to kill off BW, then one important lesson they'll have taught everyone is that you shouldn't try to build an esport on their products.
Let's tie this perspective from all of the different angles.
Blizzard: Blizzard owns starcraft IP. They alone are allowed to sell contracts to transmit broadcasts of what they own, just like the NFL owns the right to broadcast all NFL games. Blizzard wants GSL to succeed, but they know they need south korean BW fans to join over.
SK proleagues: They have been building up the fanbase for scbw for a long long time and they alone are responsible for making korea into the esports haven that it is. They have been broadcasting with permission for a long time, but are now threatened because of blizzard finally starting to care about esports. From their perspective they want scbw to last another 7 years because it has been popular for them and they are in their prime with osl, msl, etc...
sc fans in korea: They love scbw and they love watching the pros duke it out, sc2 is a neat game, but it isn't polished and doesn't have big names like scbw does. They would watch some sc2, but prefer scbw most likely.
sc fans not in korea: These fans tend to be all over the place. Some preferring scbw only, while others are sc2 only. However, with the success already of sc2 internationally, most fans will be watching sc2 and love sc2. Like me they will watch a few scbw games just to watch how awesome players like flash, jaedong, bisu and effort are, but 90% of the time we will watch and play sc1.
Possible Negotiations and pros cons.
1. PL continues on with permission from blizzard.
2. PL continues in spite of blizzard, battle goes to court.
3. PL discontinued.
4. Something in between.
5. something crazy (see below)
1 likely won't happen since it will not benefit gomtv/blizzard in any way. Both companies only care about 1 thing which is profit, and blizzard gets no profit in this situation.
2. Not likely to happen as this will completely ruin PL and players would probably quit and networks probably don't want to go to court.
3. Might happen if negotations don't work, however this will anger a lot of korean scbw fans and players. Might result in a bigger audience for GSL, but will push away a lot of potential players and fans.
4. Most likely something in between. I think blizzards conditions are. 1. GSL comes first 2. Blizzard gets a share 3. No more contracts with teams, players or networks (meaning players and TV networks can switch to sc2). Without 1, gsl won't grow fast, without 2, it's not worth it, without 3 blizzard will have a hard time getting the pro-scene to improve and a lot of fans won't switch.
4. Blizzard cancels PL, but sets up a new scbw PL and buys a channel in korea to cast it and pays the top 32 professionals to play in it if they cancel their current contract and casts the games alongside the GSL (maybe late night or weekend games).
This is just my spin on things. Who knows how things will actually go down. In the end, blizzard wins because they created some awesome rts games and I know if I made a game and other people started profiting from it instead of me, i would want in. Also, I like the fact that in GSL there is no team requirement meaning that anyone good enough can join in. It creates more competition which will make the league thrive more among players.
Apparently Ongamenet left partnership with GomTV. According to the article, GSL is not on the Ongamenet's broadcasting schedule and as there were not a single acknowledgement of GSL from Ongamenet, it is speculated that they are on unfriendly terms.
It's speculation. They haven't left partnership or anything.
I think Teddyman has a point. BW is very big in Korea, if all of this continues to go south like it has been, I think the government might step in to do something. I mean, Kespa isn't doing itself right by forcing Blizzard, while Blizzard/Gretech's reasons to stop BW is absurd. Like I have been saying, there both wrong, and there both being unreasonable beyond I have seen.
As far as we all know, Blizzard is basically trying to shove SC2 down there throats, and well it's damn obvious that Kespa doesn't like the fact that Blizzard just suddenly, OUT of the blue swiftly came in basically took over.
This situation is getting beyond retarded now, both sides have pushed each other SO far away it's getting to a point where trying to make up is impossible. Each side blaming the other for this mess is also dumb. Absurd, absolutely absurd.
On September 07 2010 11:58 Seraphic wrote: I think Teddyman has a point. BW is very big in Korea, if all of this continues to go south like it has been, I think the government might step in to do something. I mean, Kespa isn't doing itself right by forcing Blizzard, while Blizzard/Gretech's reasons to stop BW is absurd. Like I have been saying, there both wrong, and there both being unreasonable beyond I have seen.
As far as we all know, Blizzard is basically trying to shove SC2 down there throats, and well it's damn obvious that Kespa doesn't like the fact that Blizzard just suddenly, OUT of the blue swiftly came in basically took over.
This situation is getting beyond retarded now, both sides have pushed each other SO far away it's getting to a point where trying to make up is impossible. Each side blaming the other for this mess is also dumb. Absurd, absolutely absurd.
I gotta say though that in the end Blizzard wins and kespa loses because blizzard owns the IP to starcraft...plain and simple and until kespa is willing to concede that fact, negotiations will not go anywhere.
On September 07 2010 11:58 Seraphic wrote: I think Teddyman has a point. BW is very big in Korea, if all of this continues to go south like it has been, I think the government might step in to do something. I mean, Kespa isn't doing itself right by forcing Blizzard, while Blizzard/Gretech's reasons to stop BW is absurd. Like I have been saying, there both wrong, and there both being unreasonable beyond I have seen.
As far as we all know, Blizzard is basically trying to shove SC2 down there throats, and well it's damn obvious that Kespa doesn't like the fact that Blizzard just suddenly, OUT of the blue swiftly came in basically took over.
This situation is getting beyond retarded now, both sides have pushed each other SO far away it's getting to a point where trying to make up is impossible. Each side blaming the other for this mess is also dumb. Absurd, absolutely absurd.
I gotta say though that in the end Blizzard wins and kespa loses because blizzard owns the IP to starcraft...plain and simple and until kespa is willing to concede that fact, negotiations will not go anywhere.
If both parties don't come out gaining something (winning) then nobody is going to win. They will both lose. If blizzard wins and kespa loses (proteams disband), korean public will have a bitter image of blizz/gom and gsl will be unsuccessful. If kespa wins, SC2 may not reach its full potential as an esport and Korea may lag behind the rest of the world by sticking to BW (bad for the people who love SC2 and lack of Korean E-Sports regarding SC2 may affect the longevity of sc2 due to lack of pro level games).
Both parties need to come out ahead for any one of them to get out of the shit hole situation they've gotten themselves in.
Also, we have to admit that we're the minority in regards to this. Most people outside of korea won't have that much bad PR to Blizz or Gom because they don't know what's going on. We only have a heightened sensitivity to this because we're involved more deeply than the average gamer. Activison Blizzard knows that bad PR doesn't affect sales and most boycotts are useless... remember CoD:MW2?
On September 07 2010 11:58 Seraphic wrote: I think Teddyman has a point. BW is very big in Korea, if all of this continues to go south like it has been, I think the government might step in to do something. I mean, Kespa isn't doing itself right by forcing Blizzard, while Blizzard/Gretech's reasons to stop BW is absurd. Like I have been saying, there both wrong, and there both being unreasonable beyond I have seen.
As far as we all know, Blizzard is basically trying to shove SC2 down there throats, and well it's damn obvious that Kespa doesn't like the fact that Blizzard just suddenly, OUT of the blue swiftly came in basically took over.
This situation is getting beyond retarded now, both sides have pushed each other SO far away it's getting to a point where trying to make up is impossible. Each side blaming the other for this mess is also dumb. Absurd, absolutely absurd.
I gotta say though that in the end Blizzard wins and kespa loses because blizzard owns the IP to starcraft...plain and simple and until kespa is willing to concede that fact, negotiations will not go anywhere.
That is true, but I'm sure they want to save face regarding all of this. they might win, but basically killing the entire e-sports will probably hurt them a lot later on. I mean, I have liked Blizzard for awhile, and seeing this basically made me realize in the end, there still a company wanting more money. Instead of seeing what is right for EVERYONE and NOT just them. When I mean everyone, I mean including Korean BW pros, and not just wanting the best, unrestricted rights for SC2 "Pros".
haven't read nor kept up with these negotiation threads (maybe i should), but basically after this OSL finals, it's gonna only be OSL left standing as far as BW tournaments?
On September 07 2010 12:13 darmousseh wrote: I gotta say though that in the end Blizzard wins and kespa loses because blizzard owns the IP to starcraft...plain and simple and until kespa is willing to concede that fact, negotiations will not go anywhere.
Not necessarily, it's not like Blizz can just flip a switch and stop professional BW. They would need to win a court battle, and a Korean court could very well rule that Blizzards IP claim does not give it the right to shut down professional BW, or even that their IP claim is no longer valid.
I feel like GomTV is abusing their "power" too much just because they're sided with Blizzard. I don't blame them because they are a company, but they're not thinking of what the fans want at all. Fans are the driving force behind any e-Sport and if they think badly of your company, it's not a very good situation for anyone.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://www.modernwarfail2.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/boycott-fail.jpg)
Go and read my post from the last page again.
but yea this is really sad. chill don't be mean! spotlight this please 
![[image loading]](http://a.imageshack.us/img62/6163/sc2g.png)
