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Should Buildings be Armored? - Page 5

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Hikari
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
1914 Posts
September 10 2010 20:55 GMT
#81
Removing the armored attribute away from buildings might make it too difficult to break certain turtle configuration. Standard toss wall with double gateway or terran rack+factory wall off might be a lot stronger than it is today. I think a solution might be to slightly buff the health of buildings. A spire with 600 health gets sniped by 4 stimmed marauder doing 19dps in 8 seconds...

When I first started playing sc2 I am not very satisfied with the armor-type system. Light armored units are rare and they more or less "counter" each other (hellions, reapers), while armored units usually have bonus damage against other armored targets. Un-typed targets (ie: archons/queens) you can count with 1 hand.

I expect blizzard to breach this gap in future expansions where we might have armored anti-light and light-antiarmor units.
Bear4188
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1797 Posts
September 10 2010 20:58 GMT
#82
I've always thought of Starcraft as a game in which static defenses and structures were purposefully weak. Defense requires recon and good unit spread. I vote no to crutches for poor defense.
"I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." - R. Feynman
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:01:57
September 10 2010 21:01 GMT
#83
just make marauders do 15 against armored instead of 20 (not thought-through numbers, just a prelim. suggestion), seems like building snipes aren't a big issue if you disregard marauders :S
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
September 10 2010 21:02 GMT
#84
marauders are the only unit that rly rapes buildings followed by the ultra. immortals dont rly kill buildings all that fast unless u have a mass of them. and even then they dont kill it as fast as stimmed marauders.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
September 10 2010 21:04 GMT
#85
I remember good ol Brood War days. Take 20 lings, focus a nexus, goes down in like 5 seconds. Good times.

No need imo. Keep it as is.
ltortoise
Profile Joined August 2010
633 Posts
September 10 2010 21:05 GMT
#86
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
Pyre
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1940 Posts
September 10 2010 21:06 GMT
#87
I wouldn't matter if they changed it. Marine drops would just become more common place.

I did somes tests on a nexus with 1-0 upgrades and stim
4 Marauders killed a nexus in about 13 seconds
8 marines killed a nexus in about 12 seconds.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 10 2010 21:08 GMT
#88
On September 11 2010 06:02 Ballistixz wrote:
marauders are the only unit that rly rapes buildings followed by the ultra. immortals dont rly kill buildings all that fast unless u have a mass of them. and even then they dont kill it as fast as stimmed marauders.

Even low immortal counts rip through bunkers absurdly quickly, it's just that Terran can usually get a reasonable number of repairing SCVs. But an unprepared Terran will lose bunkers/depots in an extremely short time to the first few immortals.
Moderator
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
September 10 2010 21:09 GMT
#89
I mean, seriously, what's wrong with marauders doing 10(+5) instead of 10(+10). Would that really kill them? I don't even feel like saying why. 20 dmg on units that can stim vs armored is just UGH.
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
ltortoise
Profile Joined August 2010
633 Posts
September 10 2010 21:10 GMT
#90
On September 11 2010 06:02 Ballistixz wrote:
marauders are the only unit that rly rapes buildings followed by the ultra.


...

Marines kill buildings faster then Marauders. Do the math.
Kazang
Profile Joined August 2010
578 Posts
September 10 2010 21:11 GMT
#91
On September 11 2010 05:55 Hikari wrote:
Removing the armored attribute away from buildings might make it too difficult to break certain turtle configuration. Standard toss wall with double gateway or terran rack+factory wall off might be a lot stronger than it is today. I think a solution might be to slightly buff the health of buildings. A spire with 600 health gets sniped by 4 stimmed marauder doing 19dps in 8 seconds...

When I first started playing sc2 I am not very satisfied with the armor-type system. Light armored units are rare and they more or less "counter" each other (hellions, reapers), while armored units usually have bonus damage against other armored targets. Un-typed targets (ie: archons/queens) you can count with 1 hand.

I expect blizzard to breach this gap in future expansions where we might have armored anti-light and light-antiarmor units.


I agree about the HP boost, 600 hp for a spire really is quite low. Considering how relatively easy drops and surprise attacks are from any race that is drop in a bucket. Taking extra damage from hard hitting units does nothing to help that.

However I think it is unlikely you will see "counter" units like light armour unit with a bonus against armour becasue we aren't playing rock, paper, scissors.
But you will see armoured units with some disadvantage against light units like Immortals are not very good against marines or zerlings, marauders are disadvantaged against zealots and zerglings, and so on.
Armoured units with bonus damage to light units would be too much of a "hard counter" and starcraft isn't really about that.
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
September 10 2010 21:11 GMT
#92
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.

the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...

(yes this matters hugely)
Bibdy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3481 Posts
September 10 2010 21:13 GMT
#93
On September 11 2010 06:06 Pyre wrote:
I wouldn't matter if they changed it. Marine drops would just become more common place.

I did somes tests on a nexus with 1-0 upgrades and stim
4 Marauders killed a nexus in about 13 seconds
8 marines killed a nexus in about 12 seconds.


Yeah, but Marines are easier to kill by Warping in Zealots next to them, get rocked by a Photon Cannon or two, die to Psi Storm defense quickly and take longer to come out of the Medivac. You've got a much easier time of repelling a Marine drop than a Marauder drop.
ltortoise
Profile Joined August 2010
633 Posts
September 10 2010 21:13 GMT
#94
On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.

the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...

(yes this matters hugely)


I don't agree with this statement.

Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
September 10 2010 21:16 GMT
#95
On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.

the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...

(yes this matters hugely)


I don't agree with this statement.

Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...

because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)

stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
ltortoise
Profile Joined August 2010
633 Posts
September 10 2010 21:18 GMT
#96
On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.

the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...

(yes this matters hugely)


I don't agree with this statement.

Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...

because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)

stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)


...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).

I don't understand your points.
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
September 10 2010 21:20 GMT
#97
On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.

the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...

(yes this matters hugely)


I don't agree with this statement.

Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...

because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)

stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)


...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).

I don't understand your points.

I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh...

anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type)
ltortoise
Profile Joined August 2010
633 Posts
September 10 2010 21:22 GMT
#98
On September 11 2010 06:20 Jameser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 06:18 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:16 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:11 Jameser wrote:
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote:
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote:
It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.


It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!

Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200.
They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.

Two void rays cost 500/300.
They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)

Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.

Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.

I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.

the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...

(yes this matters hugely)


I don't agree with this statement.

Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...

because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)

stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)


...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).

I don't understand your points.

I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh...

anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type)


What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me.
Nizaris
Profile Joined May 2010
Belgium2230 Posts
September 10 2010 21:23 GMT
#99
On August 14 2010 05:13 AyJay wrote:
If buildings were not armored it would make no sense.

I mean Command center having less armor than siege tank? :o


gameplay > making sense

Buildings go down too quick from maras, and i'm a terran player ;p
LundiZ
Profile Joined December 2008
Sweden39 Posts
September 10 2010 21:34 GMT
#100
I kinda like the idea of making structures a little bit stronger (in some way), but it really just comes down to the marauders. Like 90% of the balance discussions here comes down to:

-> Marauder nerf please.
twitter.com/lundiz
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