EPTHey guys, i'm gunna keep this short and straight to the point
If i'm not mistaken all buildings are classified as armored. It seems like buildings fall much too fast to units that do bonus damage to armored. This means that units such as Marauders can take down buildings insanely fast especially late game in large quantities. Marauders are the main issue because they are a easily massable unit that does +damage to armored and when you combined them with stim, it causes Marauder balls to annihilate buildings with no risk since Marauders are amazing units just to have in your army. It just doesn't feel right when an army of Marauders come in, stim, and run around sniping buildings in 1 volley. I'm totally into units that do bonus damage specifically against buildings such as Reapers. What I don't like is having massable units that do +damage vs armored. Its too much reward without risk imo. This would fix marauders and give reapers more of a defined role and even give Reapers more viability as the game progresses.
I think it would be an improvement to the game overall if buildings were no longer classified as armored. Only a few structures such as bunkers and other base defenses should be considered armored so certain units associated with breaking defenses are not impacted too hard by this change since it is an integral part of certain units roles such as the Immortal.
So what do you guys think? If not then why should it stay the way it is?
Poll: Should Buildings be Considered Armored?
Only base defenses should be armored (501)
54%
No building should be armored (227)
25%
Bad idea... Keep as is (192)
21%
920 total votes
No building should be armored (227)
Bad idea... Keep as is (192)
920 total votes
Your vote: Should Buildings be Considered Armored?
(Vote): No building should be armored
(Vote): Only base defenses should be armored
(Vote): Bad idea... Keep as is
Its only a suggestion
I'm not complaining over imbalance or anything ^^Responses:
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 11 2010 07:17 Floophead_III wrote:
You realize that only marauders cause this problem because they have stim. The issue is marauders having stim, not buildings being armored. Tanks, immos, stalkers, ultras, they all are fine.
You realize that only marauders cause this problem because they have stim. The issue is marauders having stim, not buildings being armored. Tanks, immos, stalkers, ultras, they all are fine.
On September 11 2010 05:19 pechkin wrote:
they should be armored, the problem is in marauders with stim, not in buildings.
Make stim for marauders only movespeed bonus so they can chase stimmed marines and support them, but only support, not wtfpwn.
they should be armored, the problem is in marauders with stim, not in buildings.
Make stim for marauders only movespeed bonus so they can chase stimmed marines and support them, but only support, not wtfpwn.
I was actually thinking about something like this a few days ago. Some people think that Marauders should not have stim and that would balance things and that could work. However what if stim only increased move speed instead of that plus attack speed? I feel that would balance bio a lot more because a huge problem is that terran tier 1 can out dps basically anything.. even before stim... Massing bio is not risky either, in fact its the safest thing you could do. When massing bio it is easy to defend, with stim and medivacs its very mobile, and you can also secure expansions with ez. Yet bio is still so insanely strong.. its another one of those no risk but huge gain things :\ With that said, why would drugs make you be able to shoot a gun faster?? o_O But in all seriousness if stim only increased movement speed, that alone would theoretically increase the amount of damage you can do due to kiting.
On August 15 2010 14:03 Alphaes wrote:
Don't 2 marines out-DPS one marauder (against armored, even)? Do people just prefer Marauders drop-snipes for their enhanced survivability?
Don't 2 marines out-DPS one marauder (against armored, even)? Do people just prefer Marauders drop-snipes for their enhanced survivability?
On September 11 2010 05:37 ltortoise wrote:
Why the hell are marauders the unit of choice to discuss, here? Two marines do more dps than a single marauder to a building, in addition to being smaller so you can pack more of them around the buildings.
I suppose when it comes down to it, a marine firing looks less dramatic than a Marauder shooting a giant white chunk, so perhaps this is a main factor.
Starting to think this might be a bad idea, as the units tat would get hit the absolute most would be (in no particular order):
Roach. Good luck busting down the walls after a nerf like this!
Immortals.
Void rays (very significant, but I wouldn't mind
)
Siege tanks
Ultralisks...
etc.
Pretty big blanket nerf to a LOT of different units. I agree that buildings fall perhaps too quickly for my tastes, but I think this change would significantly nerf a pretty arbitrary set of units. You could achieve the same result by just being a bit more thoughtful about what you change. Perhaps all buildings need is simply more hp.
Why the hell are marauders the unit of choice to discuss, here? Two marines do more dps than a single marauder to a building, in addition to being smaller so you can pack more of them around the buildings.
I suppose when it comes down to it, a marine firing looks less dramatic than a Marauder shooting a giant white chunk, so perhaps this is a main factor.
Starting to think this might be a bad idea, as the units tat would get hit the absolute most would be (in no particular order):
Roach. Good luck busting down the walls after a nerf like this!
Immortals.
Void rays (very significant, but I wouldn't mind
)Siege tanks
Ultralisks...
etc.
Pretty big blanket nerf to a LOT of different units. I agree that buildings fall perhaps too quickly for my tastes, but I think this change would significantly nerf a pretty arbitrary set of units. You could achieve the same result by just being a bit more thoughtful about what you change. Perhaps all buildings need is simply more hp.
On September 11 2010 06:13 Bibdy wrote:
Yeah, but Marines are easier to kill by Warping in Zealots next to them, get rocked by a Photon Cannon or two, die to Psi Storm defense quickly and take longer to come out of the Medivac. You've got a much easier time of repelling a Marine drop than a Marauder drop.
Yeah, but Marines are easier to kill by Warping in Zealots next to them, get rocked by a Photon Cannon or two, die to Psi Storm defense quickly and take longer to come out of the Medivac. You've got a much easier time of repelling a Marine drop than a Marauder drop.
It seems like there is a controversy with marine drops doing more dps than marauder drops. Let's list all of the things that differ between the two (8 marines plus medivac drop vs. 4 marauder plus medivac drop).
1) Medivacs drop units 1 at a time. This means it will take twice as long to unload the marines over the marauders.
2) Marines are a lot easier to kill than Marauders, especially with the Medivac support.
3) Marauders have 6 range over the Marines 5.
If anyone has anything else to add then please feel free to add
The main problem in my eyes between the two is the Marauders survivability over the Marines. Marines are much easier to kill. Not only because of the Marauders overwhelming hp advantage, but counters as well. Also when Marauders stim, they can outrun Protoss and just dance around the Nexus to buy just a few more seconds which is all the time they need. This is why Marauder drops are more effective.
On September 11 2010 05:53 Kazang wrote:
Marauders killing buildings super fast is a bit of a problem, but they don't kill them that much faster than other units that are good at that, such as DT, immortals, ultralisks, tanks, banelings, mutalisk, banshee, etc.
In general I think any unit sniping off really key buildings like a Nexus (which has a major disadvantage over a Hatch/CC in that it can't be healed or repaired) is not a good thing.
Personally I would boost the HP of a CC/nexus/hatch to prevent nuking the building before you can react. But leaving regular structures still vulnerable to anti building attacks.
Sniping a CC to end the game is just a cheap strategy and is insanely easy to do.
It takes 10 seconds for 8 marauders or 4 immortals to drop a CC, those 4 immortals have more combined HP than the building and the hardened shield on top of that, unless you already have a force ready to kill that drop pretty much instantly they can easily drop the building before you can kill them.
Balancing around straight up predicting the drop is pushing things a bit, people are not clairvoyant after all.
Marauders killing buildings super fast is a bit of a problem, but they don't kill them that much faster than other units that are good at that, such as DT, immortals, ultralisks, tanks, banelings, mutalisk, banshee, etc.
In general I think any unit sniping off really key buildings like a Nexus (which has a major disadvantage over a Hatch/CC in that it can't be healed or repaired) is not a good thing.
Personally I would boost the HP of a CC/nexus/hatch to prevent nuking the building before you can react. But leaving regular structures still vulnerable to anti building attacks.
Sniping a CC to end the game is just a cheap strategy and is insanely easy to do.
It takes 10 seconds for 8 marauders or 4 immortals to drop a CC, those 4 immortals have more combined HP than the building and the hardened shield on top of that, unless you already have a force ready to kill that drop pretty much instantly they can easily drop the building before you can kill them.
Balancing around straight up predicting the drop is pushing things a bit, people are not clairvoyant after all.
The thing is that Marauders are easily massable and are a vital part of Terrans army because they are so strong in so many ways. its not an investment to get them, its stupid not to.. The other units you listed are not tier one, they are not that cheap, they are not that easily massable.
Valid Point(s):
On September 11 2010 05:29 Ezareth wrote:
Void Rays, Seige units tanks etc should be doing the damage they do.
The real problem appears to need an adjustment, maybe more base damage and less +armored damage? I dont know.
Either way removing armor from buildings makes immortals and voidrays much weaker, not to mention stalkers.
Void Rays, Seige units tanks etc should be doing the damage they do.
The real problem appears to need an adjustment, maybe more base damage and less +armored damage? I dont know.
Either way removing armor from buildings makes immortals and voidrays much weaker, not to mention stalkers.
On September 11 2010 05:54 Bibdy wrote:
Yeah, they shouldn't be armoured. Units that should be doing bonus damage to buildings should use 'STRUCTURE' for their modifier e.g. Banelings, Immortals, Siege Tanks. Presumably those three units are meant to be the main building-busters.
Yeah, they shouldn't be armoured. Units that should be doing bonus damage to buildings should use 'STRUCTURE' for their modifier e.g. Banelings, Immortals, Siege Tanks. Presumably those three units are meant to be the main building-busters.
On September 11 2010 06:53 OTIX wrote:
For comparison here are some dps numbers against a 1 armour building:
Stimmed Marauder: 19
Stimmed Marine: 8.71
Sieged Tank: 16.33
Thor: 45.31
Zergling: 5.75
Roach: 7.5
Hydralisk: 13.25
Ultralisk: 44.4 (post-patch: 39.49)
Stalker: 9.03
Dark Templar: 25.97
Immortal: 33.79
Marauders and Marines are clear outliers, though 2 Marines are not better than a Marauder unless you have +2. We can see that 10 Roaches kill buildings slower than 4 Marauders. An Immortal is clearly worse (and much more expensive) than 2 Marauders and an Ultra or a Thor are only slightly better. A DT is a little better than one Marauder but costs more than twice as much. Hydras are greatly outclassed. Zerglings have very high dps for their cost but they are obviously limited by the attack surface.
4 Marauders can kill a Hatchery in roughly 12 real seconds (about one full stim). 8 Marines are almost as fast but quite fragile in comparison and take longer to unload. If Marauders did not have any bonus damage against buildings they would be in line with the more expensive Stalkers and still significantly better than Roaches.
Unfortunately making buildings unarmoured would affect many other units, especially Immortals, and an exception only for Marauders would be an inelegant and strange solution. Perhaps the ability to snipe buildings will simply be a part of the overall balance of the Terran race down the line.
For comparison here are some dps numbers against a 1 armour building:
Stimmed Marauder: 19
Stimmed Marine: 8.71
Sieged Tank: 16.33
Thor: 45.31
Zergling: 5.75
Roach: 7.5
Hydralisk: 13.25
Ultralisk: 44.4 (post-patch: 39.49)
Stalker: 9.03
Dark Templar: 25.97
Immortal: 33.79
Marauders and Marines are clear outliers, though 2 Marines are not better than a Marauder unless you have +2. We can see that 10 Roaches kill buildings slower than 4 Marauders. An Immortal is clearly worse (and much more expensive) than 2 Marauders and an Ultra or a Thor are only slightly better. A DT is a little better than one Marauder but costs more than twice as much. Hydras are greatly outclassed. Zerglings have very high dps for their cost but they are obviously limited by the attack surface.
4 Marauders can kill a Hatchery in roughly 12 real seconds (about one full stim). 8 Marines are almost as fast but quite fragile in comparison and take longer to unload. If Marauders did not have any bonus damage against buildings they would be in line with the more expensive Stalkers and still significantly better than Roaches.
Unfortunately making buildings unarmoured would affect many other units, especially Immortals, and an exception only for Marauders would be an inelegant and strange solution. Perhaps the ability to snipe buildings will simply be a part of the overall balance of the Terran race down the line.
On September 11 2010 10:29 caewil wrote:
It's not simply the Marauder. It's the fact that just getting a unit to heal your army, a unit which you are getting anyway(!) automatically gives Terran access to drops. So if you're playing against a Terran, you always have to be prepared for drops. The fact that the units that make up the bulk of their army are the same units that they will use in a drop means that unlike the other two races, they pay no opportunity cost for going drops. They won't have a smaller army, they won't be building a unit or getting an upgrade just to drop.
Very different from back in BW, where if you wanted to heal your drops, you'd have to use some space for medics. Plus they required using those starports for dropships instead of science vessels.
It's not simply the Marauder. It's the fact that just getting a unit to heal your army, a unit which you are getting anyway(!) automatically gives Terran access to drops. So if you're playing against a Terran, you always have to be prepared for drops. The fact that the units that make up the bulk of their army are the same units that they will use in a drop means that unlike the other two races, they pay no opportunity cost for going drops. They won't have a smaller army, they won't be building a unit or getting an upgrade just to drop.
Very different from back in BW, where if you wanted to heal your drops, you'd have to use some space for medics. Plus they required using those starports for dropships instead of science vessels.
On September 11 2010 10:43 eth3n wrote:
I honestly think it is the marauder. The OP stated it well. Other units that rape buildings:
Siege Tanks
Reapers
DT drop
Immortals
VR rush
Ultralisks (which are actually getting buffed v buildings in important respects in the next patch)
Muta Snipe (outlying buildings)
The above tactics all require significant effort or a substantial risk of loss
VR/DT/Reapers/Mutas are all glass cannon and easily preventable, so their use is only if the opponent is leaving themselves vulnerable, and none of these units generally are made to work well in a 1a
Siege Tanks and Immortals don't really drop that well into a base (ignoring cliff abuse), if the player is steadily crawling with tanks or sending in Immortals with a 1a then you can't really complain.
Ultras are tier3 and Z tier3 takes forever, if you let the game go on that long you should be able to counter or should have already won/lost
Marauders however are a basic unit that has a place in every major composition. They are relatively cheap for their power (not a gas sink whatsoever) and can easily be massed to run them in with stim or drop them in main with stim. This can take out multiple tech buildings in a matter of seconds even if you have the army there to kill them.
I hate to be broken record here but the marauder unit in its current form doesn't seem right.
I think the idea of only defensive structures have armor is an interesting compromise which would leave the stimpak on the marauder yet deal with one of the most annoying aspects of the marauder.
I honestly think it is the marauder. The OP stated it well. Other units that rape buildings:
Siege Tanks
Reapers
DT drop
Immortals
VR rush
Ultralisks (which are actually getting buffed v buildings in important respects in the next patch)
Muta Snipe (outlying buildings)
The above tactics all require significant effort or a substantial risk of loss
VR/DT/Reapers/Mutas are all glass cannon and easily preventable, so their use is only if the opponent is leaving themselves vulnerable, and none of these units generally are made to work well in a 1a
Siege Tanks and Immortals don't really drop that well into a base (ignoring cliff abuse), if the player is steadily crawling with tanks or sending in Immortals with a 1a then you can't really complain.
Ultras are tier3 and Z tier3 takes forever, if you let the game go on that long you should be able to counter or should have already won/lost
Marauders however are a basic unit that has a place in every major composition. They are relatively cheap for their power (not a gas sink whatsoever) and can easily be massed to run them in with stim or drop them in main with stim. This can take out multiple tech buildings in a matter of seconds even if you have the army there to kill them.
I hate to be broken record here but the marauder unit in its current form doesn't seem right.
I think the idea of only defensive structures have armor is an interesting compromise which would leave the stimpak on the marauder yet deal with one of the most annoying aspects of the marauder.
On September 11 2010 12:07 KeiQQ wrote:
The main issue with marauder drops compared to ultralisk and immortal drops is the same issue the OP stated; almost no risk for a big reward. Toss has to get the Warp Prism, which while being nifty, serves no real combat purpose, and zerg has to spend 300/300 for overlord speed/drop, whereas terran gets their dropship from a unit that already heals their army, theres literally NO downside.If maybe medivacs needed a 200/200 or 150/150 upgrade that let them drop, it'd be less ridiculous, but as of now, the amount of risk a terran takes to drop is way, way, WAY lower than other races.
The main issue with marauder drops compared to ultralisk and immortal drops is the same issue the OP stated; almost no risk for a big reward. Toss has to get the Warp Prism, which while being nifty, serves no real combat purpose, and zerg has to spend 300/300 for overlord speed/drop, whereas terran gets their dropship from a unit that already heals their army, theres literally NO downside.If maybe medivacs needed a 200/200 or 150/150 upgrade that let them drop, it'd be less ridiculous, but as of now, the amount of risk a terran takes to drop is way, way, WAY lower than other races.
On September 11 2010 13:11 blitzkrieger wrote:
Reaper
50hp 0 armor
1.8 attack speed 30dmg 16.66dps (16.1 b.c of building armor)
Stimmed Marauder
125hp 1 armor
1.0 attack speed 20dmg =20dps (or 19 b/c building armor)
Both are fast but Marauders do more damage, take less time to build, are more durable, are just as fast while stimmed, can slow, can counter many more unit types, cost less gas (1/2 as much), and form into many army comps.
2 medivacs with 8 marauders cost:
1000min 400gas
1 medivac with 8 reapers (and twice the unloading time) cost:
500min 500gas
Reaper
50hp 0 armor
1.8 attack speed 30dmg 16.66dps (16.1 b.c of building armor)
Stimmed Marauder
125hp 1 armor
1.0 attack speed 20dmg =20dps (or 19 b/c building armor)
Both are fast but Marauders do more damage, take less time to build, are more durable, are just as fast while stimmed, can slow, can counter many more unit types, cost less gas (1/2 as much), and form into many army comps.
2 medivacs with 8 marauders cost:
1000min 400gas
1 medivac with 8 reapers (and twice the unloading time) cost:
500min 500gas
Wow! This is actually absurd...
