Hey guys, i'm gunna keep this short and straight to the point If i'm not mistaken all buildings are classified as armored. It seems like buildings fall much too fast to units that do bonus damage to armored. This means that units such as Marauders can take down buildings insanely fast especially late game in large quantities. Marauders are the main issue because they are a easily massable unit that does +damage to armored and when you combined them with stim, it causes Marauder balls to annihilate buildings with no risk since Marauders are amazing units just to have in your army. It just doesn't feel right when an army of Marauders come in, stim, and run around sniping buildings in 1 volley. I'm totally into units that do bonus damage specifically against buildings such as Reapers. What I don't like is having massable units that do +damage vs armored. Its too much reward without risk imo. This would fix marauders and give reapers more of a defined role and even give Reapers more viability as the game progresses.
I think it would be an improvement to the game overall if buildings were no longer classified as armored. Only a few structures such as bunkers and other base defenses should be considered armored so certain units associated with breaking defenses are not impacted too hard by this change since it is an integral part of certain units roles such as the Immortal.
So what do you guys think? If not then why should it stay the way it is?
Poll: Should Buildings be Considered Armored?
Only base defenses should be armored (501)
54%
No building should be armored (227)
25%
Bad idea... Keep as is (192)
21%
920 total votes
Your vote: Should Buildings be Considered Armored?
(Vote): No building should be armored (Vote): Only base defenses should be armored (Vote): Bad idea... Keep as is
Its only a suggestion I'm not complaining over imbalance or anything ^^
On September 11 2010 07:17 Floophead_III wrote: You realize that only marauders cause this problem because they have stim. The issue is marauders having stim, not buildings being armored. Tanks, immos, stalkers, ultras, they all are fine.
On September 11 2010 05:19 pechkin wrote: they should be armored, the problem is in marauders with stim, not in buildings. Make stim for marauders only movespeed bonus so they can chase stimmed marines and support them, but only support, not wtfpwn.
I was actually thinking about something like this a few days ago. Some people think that Marauders should not have stim and that would balance things and that could work. However what if stim only increased move speed instead of that plus attack speed? I feel that would balance bio a lot more because a huge problem is that terran tier 1 can out dps basically anything.. even before stim... Massing bio is not risky either, in fact its the safest thing you could do. When massing bio it is easy to defend, with stim and medivacs its very mobile, and you can also secure expansions with ez. Yet bio is still so insanely strong.. its another one of those no risk but huge gain things :\ With that said, why would drugs make you be able to shoot a gun faster?? o_O But in all seriousness if stim only increased movement speed, that alone would theoretically increase the amount of damage you can do due to kiting.
On August 15 2010 14:03 Alphaes wrote: Don't 2 marines out-DPS one marauder (against armored, even)? Do people just prefer Marauders drop-snipes for their enhanced survivability?
On September 11 2010 05:37 ltortoise wrote: Why the hell are marauders the unit of choice to discuss, here? Two marines do more dps than a single marauder to a building, in addition to being smaller so you can pack more of them around the buildings.
I suppose when it comes down to it, a marine firing looks less dramatic than a Marauder shooting a giant white chunk, so perhaps this is a main factor.
Starting to think this might be a bad idea, as the units tat would get hit the absolute most would be (in no particular order):
Roach. Good luck busting down the walls after a nerf like this! Immortals. Void rays (very significant, but I wouldn't mind ) Siege tanks Ultralisks... etc.
Pretty big blanket nerf to a LOT of different units. I agree that buildings fall perhaps too quickly for my tastes, but I think this change would significantly nerf a pretty arbitrary set of units. You could achieve the same result by just being a bit more thoughtful about what you change. Perhaps all buildings need is simply more hp.
On September 11 2010 06:13 Bibdy wrote:
Yeah, but Marines are easier to kill by Warping in Zealots next to them, get rocked by a Photon Cannon or two, die to Psi Storm defense quickly and take longer to come out of the Medivac. You've got a much easier time of repelling a Marine drop than a Marauder drop.
It seems like there is a controversy with marine drops doing more dps than marauder drops. Let's list all of the things that differ between the two (8 marines plus medivac drop vs. 4 marauder plus medivac drop). 1) Medivacs drop units 1 at a time. This means it will take twice as long to unload the marines over the marauders. 2) Marines are a lot easier to kill than Marauders, especially with the Medivac support. 3) Marauders have 6 range over the Marines 5. If anyone has anything else to add then please feel free to add The main problem in my eyes between the two is the Marauders survivability over the Marines. Marines are much easier to kill. Not only because of the Marauders overwhelming hp advantage, but counters as well. Also when Marauders stim, they can outrun Protoss and just dance around the Nexus to buy just a few more seconds which is all the time they need. This is why Marauder drops are more effective.
On September 11 2010 05:53 Kazang wrote: Marauders killing buildings super fast is a bit of a problem, but they don't kill them that much faster than other units that are good at that, such as DT, immortals, ultralisks, tanks, banelings, mutalisk, banshee, etc.
In general I think any unit sniping off really key buildings like a Nexus (which has a major disadvantage over a Hatch/CC in that it can't be healed or repaired) is not a good thing. Personally I would boost the HP of a CC/nexus/hatch to prevent nuking the building before you can react. But leaving regular structures still vulnerable to anti building attacks. Sniping a CC to end the game is just a cheap strategy and is insanely easy to do.
It takes 10 seconds for 8 marauders or 4 immortals to drop a CC, those 4 immortals have more combined HP than the building and the hardened shield on top of that, unless you already have a force ready to kill that drop pretty much instantly they can easily drop the building before you can kill them. Balancing around straight up predicting the drop is pushing things a bit, people are not clairvoyant after all.
The thing is that Marauders are easily massable and are a vital part of Terrans army because they are so strong in so many ways. its not an investment to get them, its stupid not to.. The other units you listed are not tier one, they are not that cheap, they are not that easily massable.
Valid Point(s):
On September 11 2010 05:29 Ezareth wrote: Void Rays, Seige units tanks etc should be doing the damage they do.
The real problem appears to need an adjustment, maybe more base damage and less +armored damage? I dont know.
Either way removing armor from buildings makes immortals and voidrays much weaker, not to mention stalkers.
On September 11 2010 05:54 Bibdy wrote: Yeah, they shouldn't be armoured. Units that should be doing bonus damage to buildings should use 'STRUCTURE' for their modifier e.g. Banelings, Immortals, Siege Tanks. Presumably those three units are meant to be the main building-busters.
On September 11 2010 06:53 OTIX wrote: For comparison here are some dps numbers against a 1 armour building:
Marauders and Marines are clear outliers, though 2 Marines are not better than a Marauder unless you have +2. We can see that 10 Roaches kill buildings slower than 4 Marauders. An Immortal is clearly worse (and much more expensive) than 2 Marauders and an Ultra or a Thor are only slightly better. A DT is a little better than one Marauder but costs more than twice as much. Hydras are greatly outclassed. Zerglings have very high dps for their cost but they are obviously limited by the attack surface.
4 Marauders can kill a Hatchery in roughly 12 real seconds (about one full stim). 8 Marines are almost as fast but quite fragile in comparison and take longer to unload. If Marauders did not have any bonus damage against buildings they would be in line with the more expensive Stalkers and still significantly better than Roaches.
Unfortunately making buildings unarmoured would affect many other units, especially Immortals, and an exception only for Marauders would be an inelegant and strange solution. Perhaps the ability to snipe buildings will simply be a part of the overall balance of the Terran race down the line.
On September 11 2010 10:29 caewil wrote: It's not simply the Marauder. It's the fact that just getting a unit to heal your army, a unit which you are getting anyway(!) automatically gives Terran access to drops. So if you're playing against a Terran, you always have to be prepared for drops. The fact that the units that make up the bulk of their army are the same units that they will use in a drop means that unlike the other two races, they pay no opportunity cost for going drops. They won't have a smaller army, they won't be building a unit or getting an upgrade just to drop.
Very different from back in BW, where if you wanted to heal your drops, you'd have to use some space for medics. Plus they required using those starports for dropships instead of science vessels.
On September 11 2010 10:43 eth3n wrote: I honestly think it is the marauder. The OP stated it well. Other units that rape buildings:
Siege Tanks Reapers DT drop Immortals VR rush Ultralisks (which are actually getting buffed v buildings in important respects in the next patch) Muta Snipe (outlying buildings)
The above tactics all require significant effort or a substantial risk of loss VR/DT/Reapers/Mutas are all glass cannon and easily preventable, so their use is only if the opponent is leaving themselves vulnerable, and none of these units generally are made to work well in a 1a Siege Tanks and Immortals don't really drop that well into a base (ignoring cliff abuse), if the player is steadily crawling with tanks or sending in Immortals with a 1a then you can't really complain. Ultras are tier3 and Z tier3 takes forever, if you let the game go on that long you should be able to counter or should have already won/lost
Marauders however are a basic unit that has a place in every major composition. They are relatively cheap for their power (not a gas sink whatsoever) and can easily be massed to run them in with stim or drop them in main with stim. This can take out multiple tech buildings in a matter of seconds even if you have the army there to kill them.
I hate to be broken record here but the marauder unit in its current form doesn't seem right.
I think the idea of only defensive structures have armor is an interesting compromise which would leave the stimpak on the marauder yet deal with one of the most annoying aspects of the marauder.
On September 11 2010 12:07 KeiQQ wrote: The main issue with marauder drops compared to ultralisk and immortal drops is the same issue the OP stated; almost no risk for a big reward. Toss has to get the Warp Prism, which while being nifty, serves no real combat purpose, and zerg has to spend 300/300 for overlord speed/drop, whereas terran gets their dropship from a unit that already heals their army, theres literally NO downside.If maybe medivacs needed a 200/200 or 150/150 upgrade that let them drop, it'd be less ridiculous, but as of now, the amount of risk a terran takes to drop is way, way, WAY lower than other races.
On September 11 2010 13:11 blitzkrieger wrote: Reaper
50hp 0 armor 1.8 attack speed 30dmg 16.66dps (16.1 b.c of building armor)
Both are fast but Marauders do more damage, take less time to build, are more durable, are just as fast while stimmed, can slow, can counter many more unit types, cost less gas (1/2 as much), and form into many army comps.
2 medivacs with 8 marauders cost: 1000min 400gas
1 medivac with 8 reapers (and twice the unloading time) cost: 500min 500gas
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk.
On August 14 2010 04:13 Ndugu wrote: This is a more nuanced issue than it sounds like.
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk.
LOL I can just feel his pain from the "wtfpwn."
Agreed. My cannons and nexus shouldn't go down so fast to the point my army doesn't get there even if it's very near my main.
I can only imagine the pain for zerg. At least protoss has immortals that can take down terran's expo. It's pretty hard for zerg to do that, and they break your expo in a matter of seconds.
I agree, buildings are killed so fast in the game. If you want to make some units to snipe buildings you should make reapers (with their special attack against buildings), not marauders.
Hmm i think the defense buildings should be classified as armored but none of the others. And marauders are one of the most annoying problems to deal with, a drop in the main and 2 stims can knock out every tech building (which take 3 years to build) before I can even react.
On August 14 2010 04:58 zephyredx wrote: It might be a good idea to add a new "building" category so that only units that specifically target buildings like blings get the advantage.
Units such as the Ultralisk and Reaper already have attacks specifically for buildings. I think that if a unit does extra damage against buildings then they should require a special attack vs buildings just like ultras and reapers.
Absolutely agree. the majority of building should have "structure" armor IMO, something that there isn't really bonus damage against, while defensive buildings such as cannons, bunkers, PF's and spine crawlers get "armored" as their type. That way immortals and marauders and ultras (oh my!) are still great at busting a position, but it's significantly harder to snipe key tech structures, like my robo bay or spire or something.
alternatively, give certain units (obv. reapers, but possibly others) bonus damage against "structure" armor. Gives us another reason to vary up the army composition - this unit to snipe/harass/drop/bust wallins, this unit to fight enemies, this unit to break a turtle, etc.
In my opinion keep as is, why change things for the sake of changing there is no "real" problem about it. OH immortals and stalkers killing your buildings fast? Kill them instead. Buildings are really going to matter whether armored or not unless you are bronze and just go cannons, etc. Most players that know how to play wont have to worry about it anyways as 98% of their income will be for units so I don't think a change is needed.
On August 14 2010 05:05 phyre112 wrote: Absolutely agree. the majority of building should have "structure" armor IMO, something that there isn't really bonus damage against, while defensive buildings such as cannons, bunkers, PF's and spine crawlers get "armored" as their type. That way immortals and marauders and ultras (oh my!) are still great at busting a position, but it's significantly harder to snipe key tech structures, like my robo bay or spire or something.
alternatively, give certain units (obv. reapers, but possibly others) bonus damage against "structure" armor. Gives us another reason to vary up the army composition - this unit to snipe/harass/drop/bust wallins, this unit to fight enemies, this unit to break a turtle, etc.
Do you really think immortal drops (2 slow, expensive, 5-range units that only do 20 damage to your non-armored units) or, theoretically, ultralisks, are why anyone thinks anti-armored units are too good against buildings?
It really all comes down to Marauders.
Well, Marauders and theoretically Void Rays, but I think Void Rays ability to quickly snipe a building if left undefended is Protoss's only way of trying to keep someone in their base, the equivalent of Mutalisks sniping probes or the million and one ways a Terran can harrass.
My better question is should buildings be massive. This only affects the corruptor with terran buildings, but when you consider that buildings are some of the largest units in the game, they should totally be massive at least logically.
Secondly, zerg could use any buff to help them against terran at this point. I think corruptors dealing bonus to lifted buildings would help that.
On August 14 2010 05:14 Ndugu wrote: Do you really think immortal drops (2 slow, expensive, 5-range units that only do 20 damage to your non-armored units) or, theoretically, ultralisks, are why anyone thinks anti-armored units are too good against buildings?
It really all comes down to Marauders.
Well, Marauders and theoretically Void Rays, but I think Void Rays ability to quickly snipe a building if left undefended is Protoss's only way of trying to keep someone in their base, the equivalent of Mutalisks sniping probes or the million and one ways a Terran can harrass.
I agree. Marauders are the only problem here, and I don't think all buildings should get a blanket buff just to prevent terrans from sniping stuff.
On August 14 2010 04:58 zephyredx wrote: It might be a good idea to add a new "building" category so that only units that specifically target buildings like blings get the advantage.
Units such as the Ultralisk and Reaper already have attacks specifically for buildings. I think that if a unit does extra damage against buildings then they should require a special attack vs buildings just like ultras and reapers.
Speaking of Ultras, what is the purpose of the headbutt attack against buildings? Yeah it looks neat but the normal attack does more dps and it has splash. The only thing the headbutt seems to accomplish is to prevent splashing SCVs repairing the building.
Just seems weird to have a special attack that's worse than the normal one.
On August 14 2010 04:58 zephyredx wrote: It might be a good idea to add a new "building" category so that only units that specifically target buildings like blings get the advantage.
Units such as the Ultralisk and Reaper already have attacks specifically for buildings. I think that if a unit does extra damage against buildings then they should require a special attack vs buildings just like ultras and reapers.
Speaking of Ultras, what is the purpose of the headbutt attack against buildings? Yeah it looks neat but the normal attack does more dps and it has splash. The only thing the headbutt seems to accomplish is to prevent splashing SCVs repairing the building.
Just seems weird to have a special attack that's worse than the normal one.
Rofl, never realized this. If it is actually worse than the default attack, it has to be an oversight from when they made ultras anti-armor.
On August 14 2010 04:58 zephyredx wrote: It might be a good idea to add a new "building" category so that only units that specifically target buildings like blings get the advantage.
Units such as the Ultralisk and Reaper already have attacks specifically for buildings. I think that if a unit does extra damage against buildings then they should require a special attack vs buildings just like ultras and reapers.
Speaking of Ultras, what is the purpose of the headbutt attack against buildings? Yeah it looks neat but the normal attack does more dps and it has splash. The only thing the headbutt seems to accomplish is to prevent splashing SCVs repairing the building.
Just seems weird to have a special attack that's worse than the normal one.
It prevents it from splashing while attacking buildings. An ultralisk being able to clear SCVs repairing, as well as destroying 3 supply depots at once is a little bit... iffy.
On August 14 2010 04:58 zephyredx wrote: It might be a good idea to add a new "building" category so that only units that specifically target buildings like blings get the advantage.
Units such as the Ultralisk and Reaper already have attacks specifically for buildings. I think that if a unit does extra damage against buildings then they should require a special attack vs buildings just like ultras and reapers.
Speaking of Ultras, what is the purpose of the headbutt attack against buildings? Yeah it looks neat but the normal attack does more dps and it has splash. The only thing the headbutt seems to accomplish is to prevent splashing SCVs repairing the building.
Just seems weird to have a special attack that's worse than the normal one.
The headbutt attack does more damage than the regular attack o.O or am I mistaken?
At first I was going to write that I had already accepted how buildings go down much faster in this game, but with the marauders you guys raised a good point. Since only terran has that easily massable and accessible unit with bonus damage to armor, armored buildings is a balance problem. I guess a lot would be helped by defensive structures being the only armored buildings, but then again I don't really see the need for them to be weak against anti-armor units.
I wouldn't mind buildings having no special class (or simply structure class) and taking normal (minimum) damage from everything. And that's coming from a terran player. Special units could still have bonus damage vs buildings with a seperate attack like it is the case with reapers.
Totally agree, stimmed marauders destroy buildings wayyy too fast, it's just ridiculous. I understand the whole concept of getting your buildings sniped because your army was out of position. However, being a screen's length away should not constitute as your army being too far away to save an expo or building.
I feel like the OP's suggestion is a very good one, but I still think the core problem is that the marauder is just too good. IMO they should never have changed stim to 100/100 from 150/150 (same with concussive shells but i can at least somewhat deal with that change). Terran needs more commitment to their tech paths because right now they are just way too flexible. Transitioning from marauder to tank should be a costly procedure.
I think design-wise it'd be cooler if buildings were their own armor class ("Structure"). Aside from balance concerns, it'd make special building attacks (headbutt, reaper bombs) more useful, as they would be even stronger vs buildings relative to other units (e.g. if you want to snipe a new expo now, just send a medivac with 4 marauders and stim, vs if buildings were not armored, reapers potentially have a specialized role in taking down expos). Units like Immortals would probably have to have new specialized building attacks to maintain their current roles, while units like marauders might not get the same treatment, as I don't see them primarily as building-killers or static defense busters.
whats really dumb is how armored units are the fragile units in sc2, everything hurts armored so badly. like if i were to just strap on a piece of body armor all of a sudden an immortal can 3 shot me! like wtf!? damage system in sc2 is laaaame. i mean tanks do more damage when in tank mode to armored than in siege mode which is retarded and immortals just do an insane amount of damage to things that just have a bit of metal overtop. so weird.
On August 14 2010 11:50 ensign_lee wrote: Well, I mean, the marauders are shooting GRENADES. I would expect them to be able to bring down buildings easily.
but that fast? roaches shot god damn acid. that MELTS buildings, and they dont kill it as fast.
On August 14 2010 11:50 ensign_lee wrote: Well, I mean, the marauders are shooting GRENADES. I would expect them to be able to bring down buildings easily.
Lore has little room for discussion in a balance debate. Remember siege tank drivers can also telepathically read each others' minds. Not just one person reading another persons mind but large groups of them all reading each others' minds at the same time, to coordinate perfectly executed attacks with no overkill and maximum efficiency.
On August 14 2010 05:13 AyJay wrote: If buildings were not armored it would make no sense.
I mean Command center having less armor than siege tank? :o
I really think this would slightly improve gameplay, but I think static defense should stay armoured though.
And if you're worried about logic or something, just make them a new class called "fortified" or something. And only certain units like ulta/reaper do extra damage to fortified.
On August 14 2010 05:14 Ndugu wrote: Do you really think immortal drops (2 slow, expensive, 5-range units that only do 20 damage to your non-armored units) or, theoretically, ultralisks, are why anyone thinks anti-armored units are too good against buildings?
It really all comes down to Marauders.
Well, Marauders and theoretically Void Rays, but I think Void Rays ability to quickly snipe a building if left undefended is Protoss's only way of trying to keep someone in their base, the equivalent of Mutalisks sniping probes or the million and one ways a Terran can harrass.
I agree. Marauders are the only problem here, and I don't think all buildings should get a blanket buff just to prevent terrans from sniping stuff.
On August 14 2010 05:13 AyJay wrote: If buildings were not armored it would make no sense.
I mean Command center having less armor than siege tank? :o
I really think this would slightly improve gameplay, but I think static defense should stay armoured though.
And if you're worried about logic or something, just make them a new class called "fortified" or something. And only certain units like ulta/reaper do extra damage to fortified.
Just throwing this out there, but what if only the Nexus/CC/Hatchery were this "fortified". I mean it makes sense seeing as how it is the most important building in your army. I just find it silly fast stimmed marauders can down a hatch or nexus
There are other ways to have units be effective against buildings besides having them armored. It's very possible to have a bonus vs buildings damage modifier, for example. Or in the case of reapers and ultralisks, have a secondary building-only attack.
If this was week 1 of beta, I would be all for taking the "armored" off all buildings and adding special building damage buff to things like sieged tanks, immortals, maybe colossus. But this isn't week 1 of beta, so it would probably be best if we didn't muck with the balance too much, and changing every building in the game is probably "too much".
I don't understand the point of this thread. If you know the other player is going to be doing drops and you don't bother to put up some cannons/turrets/spore crawlers, you deserve to lose buildings to banelings, immortals and marauders. Why should the game protect you from your own incompetence?
On August 14 2010 05:14 Xapti wrote: My better question is should buildings be massive. This only affects the corruptor with terran buildings, but when you consider that buildings are some of the largest units in the game, they should totally be massive at least logically.
Secondly, zerg could use any buff to help them against terran at this point. I think corruptors dealing bonus to lifted buildings would help that.
because we all mass corruptors to stop Terran from lifting his barracks...
On August 14 2010 11:50 ensign_lee wrote: Well, I mean, the marauders are shooting GRENADES. I would expect them to be able to bring down buildings easily.
Yea, but an Ultralisk is BIGGER than most buildings, it should just walk over them and roflstomp them =P
I really like this, right now marauders just replace reapers late game. Ultras, banelings, reapers and voidrays are already great siege units.
I heard LZgamer mentioning this on his stream a few weeks ago, and I completly agree with him and the OP. Also thumbs up for the static defense weakness bit.
I feel that i speak for myself as well as the three little pigs when i say that all of the buildings should be armored. Like, its a building, built on a battle field, hundreds of years in the future.
However, this is just out curiosity, if there was to be an "un armored building", then what would happen if say hellions attacked it? would they get the damage bonus?
Zerg already has 2 specific units that deal more damage to buildings. I would like the armored tag removed and a +building damage modifier put on siege tanks and immortals for sure, possibly void rays, but I'd prefer they just start over with void rays.
Other than that, I don't think anything should really do massive damag to buildings.
In general, I do think marauders are pretty damn retarded for their cost. There is no armored unit in the game they lose to supply-cost-wise(maybe ultras?) and they're 100/25. Such a very strong unit for your investment and available so early to boot. But this is where bio strength comes from, if they touch marauders in any way, they have to touch marines, medivacs, and reapers in some way to make it up, and all of those units are retarded enough as is.
Personally I would think the solution is to increase the base armor of buildings by A LOT. Even Terrans only get a ridiculous +2 upgrade for their armor and Protoss rarely upgrade their shields. Buildings are immobile and can allow themselves to use heavy concrete and other really solid materials which would require more than small bullets from a machine gun to take serious damage from.
Which type of building *should be* hard to kill (high armor) and which should be easy to destroy (no / low armor)? If I use common sense from the real world it would obviously be the defensive structures that should be very hard to kill and production structures that are easy to destroy (or make useless). From the game balance perspective that is not so easy to say, because too tough buildings could really change the style of play.
Personally I would prefer to keep all buildings armored, but to give defensive structures +3 armor and/or to give the PF a 50% damage reduction (added to the +2 building armor research?), to give the Zerg Hive a really high regeneration (only the Hive and not the Lair or Hatchery) and to give the Nexus an increased shield regeneration even in combat for as long as it has energy ... kinda like Terran healing. Sadly this makes matters a lot more complicated by adding a few new mechanics and changing the "feel" for the buildings, but if such a change was made I would think it was best to get it over with as early as possible before people have gotten used to the current state.
On August 14 2010 14:40 DamonRJ wrote: I feel that i speak for myself as well as the three little pigs when i say that all of the buildings should be armored. Like, its a building, built on a battle field, hundreds of years in the future.
However, this is just out curiosity, if there was to be an "un armored building", then what would happen if say hellions attacked it? would they get the damage bonus?
"Armored" is just a coefficient used for the bonus damage system. If buildings were not armored then all that would mean is that things that do +dmg vs armored would no longer do bonus damage to buildings. Thats all that would change.
There are two kinds of targets in a base, workers and buildings. Coincidentally one is light and one is armored meaning that no matter what your bonus damage is against you can use it. Still even with the bonus damage workers are still the preferred target even for units like marauders, I think that it is fine.
I was suggesting a different armor type for bldgs since like week one of the beta. It seems pretty absurd with certain units, specifically marauder drops. A fortified armor type, that doesn't receive bonus damage from anything or reduce any damage from anything unless otherwise stated (ultra/baneling/reaper). So everything will do it's normal damage type to it. Immortals, Stalkers, Marauders, Tanks, etc. would just do their non armored damage. btw, tanks shoot too fast with their unseiged mode
On August 14 2010 13:44 Vokasak wrote: There are other ways to have units be effective against buildings besides having them armored. It's very possible to have a bonus vs buildings damage modifier, for example. Or in the case of reapers and ultralisks, have a secondary building-only attack.
If this was week 1 of beta, I would be all for taking the "armored" off all buildings and adding special building damage buff to things like sieged tanks, immortals, maybe colossus. But this isn't week 1 of beta, so it would probably be best if we didn't muck with the balance too much, and changing every building in the game is probably "too much".
It wasn't too much for WC3, don't see why its too much for SC2
On August 14 2010 13:44 Vokasak wrote: There are other ways to have units be effective against buildings besides having them armored. It's very possible to have a bonus vs buildings damage modifier, for example. Or in the case of reapers and ultralisks, have a secondary building-only attack.
If this was week 1 of beta, I would be all for taking the "armored" off all buildings and adding special building damage buff to things like sieged tanks, immortals, maybe colossus. But this isn't week 1 of beta, so it would probably be best if we didn't muck with the balance too much, and changing every building in the game is probably "too much".
It wasn't too much for WC3, don't see why its too much for SC2
Brood War had tons of changes too. Blizzard is really good about balancing post release.
It's easy for 8 marauders to do a wtfpwn drop and kill a pylon without risk. Even better to snipe that and a gas. If your protoss are out of position they can wtfpwn even more pylons. Maybe even a nexus.
QQ Does anyone have stats on marauder DPS vs armored?
Edit:
Marauder DPS is ~13 vs armored. With stim it's ~20. 20 * 8 = 180 damage.
Though it does seem funny that being "armored" is actually detrimental to your health. You don't reduce damage from anything and instead you take extra from certain units.
On August 14 2010 16:20 Backpack wrote: It's fine and should be left as is.
Though it does seem funny that being "armored" is actually detrimental to your health. You don't reduce damage from anything and instead you take extra from certain units.
It's fine in every case except marauders. Reapers should be the go to building buster, they arent. Because mara's are too good at the job.
I always thought buildings crumbled a little too fast to stimmed marauders. Making buildings their own category other than "armored" would be a great fix to this.
Also when blizzard changed stim from 150/150 to 100/100 I absolutely had to face palm. It's such a versatile (affecting both marines and marauders) and extremely powerful ability, there is no way it should be that cheap. 150/150 is completely reasonable for such a ground breaking ability.
I dislike hjow terran can drop 2 dropships full of marauders, stim then run around and kill your nexus' and you cant do a fucking thing to stop it, and every nexus they kill puts them so far ahead for almost no cost its ridiculous
On August 14 2010 04:13 Ndugu wrote: This is a more nuanced issue than it sounds like.
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk.
Roaches are insane at taking down buildings for their cost.
All races have these units - marauders, immortals and roaches.
On August 14 2010 04:13 Ndugu wrote: This is a more nuanced issue than it sounds like.
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk.
Roaches are insane at taking down buildings for their cost.
All races have these units - marauders, immortals and roaches.
Immortals are expensive and slow, roaches have less range and no stim.
I'm a toss player and I think the problem isn't unique to marauders. A few void rays can still take out buildings incredibly fast partially due to their charging mechanic, which takes most of the blame, and partially due to the +armor damage they have. IMO buildings should have a separate armor type and T1/1.5 units definitely shouldn't get any bonus damage to buildings.
i've wanted to use the editor to experiment with this same issue... problem is that i can't add a new unit type to the list..
i know this won't ever happen... but i'd suggest a huge overhaul and re-balancing...
start with adding a Medium armor class...
then give all Light units 0 armor... all Medium units 1 armor... and all Armored units 2 armor...
the only medium armored units would be units like the queen, infestor, raven, observer, overlord, mule, and ghost... none of your real "combat" units... just the support-ish units.
there would be no units that deal +dmg to Medium...
along with this i would propose adding a Plating category that only applies to buildings and all Plated structures would have 3 armor.... also along with this you could give units like the reaper/immortal/void ray/etc:... bonus damage to Plating so that they still fulfill their role as structure killers.
once all of this is done then you can start tweaking +light, +armored, and normal damage values to bring everything back into balance...
i know it seems kind of radical... but i don't think it would be that difficult to find a good balance again after this overhaul... and it would finally make sense of the crappy light/armored system that we have now.
On August 14 2010 04:58 zephyredx wrote: It might be a good idea to add a new "building" category so that only units that specifically target buildings like blings get the advantage.
This is a fantastic idea that makes so much sense. I feel that cannons, bunkers, turrets, spine and spore crawlers should remain armoured however.
OR... Nerf the effects of stim on marauders since stim marauders are the only unit that's seems to take out buildings in a ridiculously OP way.
On August 14 2010 04:13 Ndugu wrote: This is a more nuanced issue than it sounds like.
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk.
Roaches are insane at taking down buildings for their cost.
All races have these units - marauders, immortals and roaches.
Now imagine those units arent slow, do more damage, have stim, and are getting healed from their dropship.
This thread turned into marauder whinefest really fast lol. If somebody drops 2 dropships full of units in your base, well, expect some damage. If terran doesn't quickly respond to void rays, his buildings are fucked too. Don' fix what ain't broken.
Just bumping this thread to revisit the idea of buildings having their own armor type. I just really hate how fast buildings are destroyed. The only exception should be static defense. What does everyone else think?
they should be armored, the problem is in marauders with stim, not in buildings. Make stim for marauders only movespeed bonus so they can chase stimmed marines and support them, but only support, not wtfpwn.
While i understand the "problem with marauders" + Show Spoiler +
for instance i see lots of korean players getting their nexi raped by marauder drops and other unnoticed incursions without being able to stop it no mather how many units they move there really, unless they somehow predicted the drop/attack
, i think that making buildings non armored would make them harder to kill (obviously) and the game would be much more stale, as ppl would really not see very profitable risking any backdooring under small timing windows as the % chance of succeeding and getting away with few losses would drop shitloads .
So for overall keeping the game interesting i think non-armored buildings won't do it sry.
Btw this not only affects marauders, a few ultras seem pretty much the best way to beat a planetary fortress supported with missile turrets for zerg, and voidrais can also destroy expansions in no time and get away.
On August 15 2010 14:03 Alphaes wrote: Don't 2 marines out-DPS one marauder (against armored, even)? Do people just prefer Marauders drop-snipes for their enhanced survivability?
I don't know the exact numbers but as far as i remember against armored units ; 2 marines do just a little lower dps ( higher or lower , i'm pretty sure it's very close tho ) . The problem is ; even if 2 marines do more damage , you got limited space in those medivacs. And without a doubt , 8 stimmed marauders ( 2 medivac ) do much more damage than 8 stimmed marines. ( my bad , it's obviously wrong ) Just add marauders an extra attack type against buildings ( like ultra's current attack ) that does 10 dmg ( normal marauder damage ).
Why the hell are marauders the unit of choice to discuss, here? Two marines do more dps than a single marauder to a building, in addition to being smaller so you can pack more of them around the buildings.
I suppose when it comes down to it, a marine firing looks less dramatic than a Marauder shooting a giant white chunk, so perhaps this is a main factor.
Starting to think this might be a bad idea, as the units tat would get hit the absolute most would be (in no particular order):
Roach. Good luck busting down the walls after a nerf like this! Immortals. Void rays (very significant, but I wouldn't mind ) Siege tanks Ultralisks... etc.
Pretty big blanket nerf to a LOT of different units. I agree that buildings fall perhaps too quickly for my tastes, but I think this change would significantly nerf a pretty arbitrary set of units. You could achieve the same result by just being a bit more thoughtful about what you change. Perhaps all buildings need is simply more hp.
No buildings should be armored IMO. Long before Polt sniped 3 Nexuses in 5 minutes, I always thought marauders and other +armor atk bonus units were too fast at killing buildings. However, I do agree with reapers and maybe some other specialized units having their +building atk bonus. Units you put in your general army though should not be so fast at taking out buildings.
I personally have not had a problem with marauder drops as zerg, probably due to great creep spread and good overlord placement. But as protoss, I feel it's a huge problem, as late game mnm terran just abuses every opening at once, whittles down your tech, expands + pushes, snipes your expo, and rapes you late game because of how abusive and efficient marauders are. Warp prisms are a good tactic to achieve near the same, but they are paper planes and easily scouted and not nearly as effective. I just think removing stim from marauders would fix the ridiculous efficiency, maybe just for in house testing. Perhaps this is too far. I really do think a beta starcraft 2 server would be a great implementation. Where blizzard can just throw in balance changes and see how the population responds to it.
On August 15 2010 14:03 Alphaes wrote: Don't 2 marines out-DPS one marauder (against armored, even)? Do people just prefer Marauders drop-snipes for their enhanced survivability?
I don't know the exact numbers but as far as i remember against armored units ; 2 marines do just a little lower dps ( higher or lower , i'm pretty sure it's very close tho ) . The problem is ; even if 2 marines do more damage , you got limited space in those medivacs. And without a doubt , 8 stimmed marauders ( 2 medivac ) do much more damage than 8 stimmed marines. Just add marauders an extra attack type against buildings ( like ultra's current attack ) that does 10 dmg ( normal marauder damage ).
What the hell are you babbling about? A marine takes up one slot, and a marauder takes up two.
And two marines do MORE damage to armored units, not less. Although if the unit has a lot of armor, it can tilt in favor of the marauder, but only if the marines don't have +attack.
On August 15 2010 14:03 Alphaes wrote: Don't 2 marines out-DPS one marauder (against armored, even)? Do people just prefer Marauders drop-snipes for their enhanced survivability?
I don't know the exact numbers but as far as i remember against armored units ; 2 marines do just a little lower dps ( higher or lower , i'm pretty sure it's very close tho ) . The problem is ; even if 2 marines do more damage , you got limited space in those medivacs. And without a doubt , 8 stimmed marauders ( 2 medivac ) do much more damage than 8 stimmed marines. Just add marauders an extra attack type against buildings ( like ultra's current attack ) that does 10 dmg ( normal marauder damage ).
What the hell are you babbling about? A marine takes up one slot, and a marauder takes up two.
Oh right , damn i shouldn't post sleepless. Apologies about that train wreck...
On August 14 2010 05:08 NuKedUFirst wrote: In my opinion keep as is, why change things for the sake of changing there is no "real" problem about it. OH immortals and stalkers killing your buildings fast? Kill them instead. Buildings are really going to matter whether armored or not unless you are bronze and just go cannons, etc. Most players that know how to play wont have to worry about it anyways as 98% of their income will be for units so I don't think a change is needed.
Except when T drops 4 marauders in my main and kills an expensive tech building in roughly 6 seconds.
Marauders killing buildings super fast is a bit of a problem, but they don't kill them that much faster than other units that are good at that, such as DT, immortals, ultralisks, tanks, banelings, mutalisk, banshee, etc.
In general I think any unit sniping off really key buildings like a Nexus (which has a major disadvantage over a Hatch/CC in that it can't be healed or repaired) is not a good thing. Personally I would boost the HP of a CC/nexus/hatch to prevent nuking the building before you can react. But leaving regular structures still vulnerable to anti building attacks. Sniping a CC to end the game is just a cheap strategy and is insanely easy to do.
It takes 10 seconds for 8 marauders or 4 immortals to drop a CC, those 4 immortals have more combined HP than the building and the hardened shield on top of that, unless you already have a force ready to kill that drop pretty much instantly they can easily drop the building before you can kill them. Balancing around straight up predicting the drop is pushing things a bit, people are not clairvoyant after all.
Yeah, they shouldn't be armoured. Units that should be doing bonus damage to buildings should use 'STRUCTURE' for their modifier e.g. Banelings, Immortals, Siege Tanks. Presumably those three units are meant to be the main building-busters.
It takes 10 seconds for 8 marauders or 4 immortals to drop a CC, those 4 immortals have more combined HP than the building and the hardened shield on top of that, unless you already have a force ready to kill that drop pretty much instantly they can easily drop the building before you can kill them.
No building is as important as the CC or Nexus, and there's two pretty important differences between them. A Nexus can't fly or be repaired.
Removing the armored attribute away from buildings might make it too difficult to break certain turtle configuration. Standard toss wall with double gateway or terran rack+factory wall off might be a lot stronger than it is today. I think a solution might be to slightly buff the health of buildings. A spire with 600 health gets sniped by 4 stimmed marauder doing 19dps in 8 seconds...
When I first started playing sc2 I am not very satisfied with the armor-type system. Light armored units are rare and they more or less "counter" each other (hellions, reapers), while armored units usually have bonus damage against other armored targets. Un-typed targets (ie: archons/queens) you can count with 1 hand.
I expect blizzard to breach this gap in future expansions where we might have armored anti-light and light-antiarmor units.
I've always thought of Starcraft as a game in which static defenses and structures were purposefully weak. Defense requires recon and good unit spread. I vote no to crutches for poor defense.
just make marauders do 15 against armored instead of 20 (not thought-through numbers, just a prelim. suggestion), seems like building snipes aren't a big issue if you disregard marauders :S
marauders are the only unit that rly rapes buildings followed by the ultra. immortals dont rly kill buildings all that fast unless u have a mass of them. and even then they dont kill it as fast as stimmed marauders.
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
On September 11 2010 06:02 Ballistixz wrote: marauders are the only unit that rly rapes buildings followed by the ultra. immortals dont rly kill buildings all that fast unless u have a mass of them. and even then they dont kill it as fast as stimmed marauders.
Even low immortal counts rip through bunkers absurdly quickly, it's just that Terran can usually get a reasonable number of repairing SCVs. But an unprepared Terran will lose bunkers/depots in an extremely short time to the first few immortals.
I mean, seriously, what's wrong with marauders doing 10(+5) instead of 10(+10). Would that really kill them? I don't even feel like saying why. 20 dmg on units that can stim vs armored is just UGH.
On September 11 2010 05:55 Hikari wrote: Removing the armored attribute away from buildings might make it too difficult to break certain turtle configuration. Standard toss wall with double gateway or terran rack+factory wall off might be a lot stronger than it is today. I think a solution might be to slightly buff the health of buildings. A spire with 600 health gets sniped by 4 stimmed marauder doing 19dps in 8 seconds...
When I first started playing sc2 I am not very satisfied with the armor-type system. Light armored units are rare and they more or less "counter" each other (hellions, reapers), while armored units usually have bonus damage against other armored targets. Un-typed targets (ie: archons/queens) you can count with 1 hand.
I expect blizzard to breach this gap in future expansions where we might have armored anti-light and light-antiarmor units.
I agree about the HP boost, 600 hp for a spire really is quite low. Considering how relatively easy drops and surprise attacks are from any race that is drop in a bucket. Taking extra damage from hard hitting units does nothing to help that.
However I think it is unlikely you will see "counter" units like light armour unit with a bonus against armour becasue we aren't playing rock, paper, scissors. But you will see armoured units with some disadvantage against light units like Immortals are not very good against marines or zerlings, marauders are disadvantaged against zealots and zerglings, and so on. Armoured units with bonus damage to light units would be too much of a "hard counter" and starcraft isn't really about that.
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
On September 11 2010 06:06 Pyre wrote: I wouldn't matter if they changed it. Marine drops would just become more common place.
I did somes tests on a nexus with 1-0 upgrades and stim 4 Marauders killed a nexus in about 13 seconds 8 marines killed a nexus in about 12 seconds.
Yeah, but Marines are easier to kill by Warping in Zealots next to them, get rocked by a Photon Cannon or two, die to Psi Storm defense quickly and take longer to come out of the Medivac. You've got a much easier time of repelling a Marine drop than a Marauder drop.
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh...
anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type)
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh...
anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type)
What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me.
I kinda like the idea of making structures a little bit stronger (in some way), but it really just comes down to the marauders. Like 90% of the balance discussions here comes down to:
On September 11 2010 06:13 ltortoise wrote: Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
Because if you go for a quick banshee i insta-lose because I won't have sight
If I get an observer and then void rays you'll either make a viking and then my void ray is useless for half the cost and on a structure you wanted anyway or you'll do some sort of infantry push and I'll lose because you have a ton more units than I do.
Getting every tech structure early on just isn't viable. When you have a solid tech tree and you can hop add-ons around for minimal costs you can afford to do such things. Protoss doesn't have that option. If I go for a robo and stargate, my army will be less than yours and if we're on equal food I already have to out-micro you to win a fight...If I'm short units on top of that I'm really screwed.
Late game air is pretty useless versus Terran. Vikings kill many times their cost without trying and you'll have a starport anyways so I'll be hard countered in a matter of moments.
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh...
anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type)
What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me.
Every time I've gone Void Ray harass, they lived and I brought them along for the main fight, they died in a split second to Stimmed Marine fire and the Viking(s) they originally built to drive off my harass (otherwise I would have kept harassing).
They have a range of 6, must accelerate and have a move speed of 2.25, which means they drop STUPID-fast to focus-fire from Marines and Vikings.
They don't work against Protoss or Zerg for exactly the same reason. They're big, slow, obvious and the acceleration rate and dependence on being ignored for 6 straight seconds just gets them killed.
They're not something you send into a straight-up battle unless the fight ended and he's got little to no AA left.
They're something you use to harass with or send in after Psi Storm does its job.
Now, when OUR Banshee harassment ending unit (Phoenix) drives you off and you thus bring it along with the main blob, has a range of 9, which wouldn't put it within direct fire of a deadly ball of GtA fire, we'll be all giddly with anticipation of the battle itself.
On September 11 2010 06:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Because if you go for a quick banshee i insta-lose because I won't have sight
Do we really need to play the rock-paper-scissors game? Every build has a counter. Why would it be different for void rays?
On September 11 2010 06:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: If I get an observer and then void rays you'll either make a viking and then my void ray is useless for half the cost and on a structure you wanted anyway or you'll do some sort of infantry push and I'll lose because you have a ton more units than I do.
I generally FE vs toss, so no, I can't just "make a viking." And if I do an infantry push, why couldn't you just forcefield your ramp while massing and messing with my economy with your void ray? This is stupid. I can't do everything all at once.
On September 11 2010 06:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Getting every tech structure early on just isn't viable. When you have a solid tech tree and you can hop add-ons around for minimal costs you can afford to do such things. Protoss doesn't have that option. If I go for a robo and stargate, my army will be less than yours and if we're on equal food I already have to out-micro you to win a fight...If I'm short units on top of that I'm really screwed.
I never said you have to "get every tech structure." Not once. Where did I say that?
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh...
anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type)
What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me.
Every time I've gone Void Ray harass, they lived and I brought them along for the main fight, they died in a split second to Stimmed Marine fire and the Viking(s) they originally built to drive off my harass (otherwise I would have kept harassing).
They have a range of 6, must accelerate and have a move speed of 2.25, which means they drop STUPID-fast to focus-fire from Marines and Vikings.
They don't work against Protoss or Zerg for exactly the same reason. They're big, slow, obvious and the acceleration rate and dependence on being ignored for 6 straight seconds just gets them killed.
They're not something you send into a straight-up battle unless the fight ended and he's got little to no AA left.
Banshees also have low hp, and a range of 6. They seem to work just fine, despite stalkers being around capable of focus firing. Maybe that's because when I do this, I actually use my ground army as a meat shield for my banshees?
The only reply I have for you is that You're Doing It Wrong.
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh...
anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type)
What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me.
Every time I've gone Void Ray harass, they lived and I brought them along for the main fight, they died in a split second to Stimmed Marine fire and the Viking(s) they originally built to drive off my harass (otherwise I would have kept harassing).
They have a range of 6, must accelerate and have a move speed of 2.25, which means they drop STUPID-fast to focus-fire from Marines and Vikings.
They don't work against Protoss or Zerg for exactly the same reason. They're big, slow, obvious and the acceleration rate and dependence on being ignored for 6 straight seconds just gets them killed.
They're not something you send into a straight-up battle unless the fight ended and he's got little to no AA left.
Banshees also have low hp, and a range of 6. They seem to work just fine, despite stalkers being around capable of focus firing. Maybe that's because when I do this, I actually use my ground army as a meat shield for my banshees?
The only reply I have for you is that You're Doing It Wrong.
Oh yes, sorry. Should be making my Zealots throw their Psi-Blades up in the air to bring them down.
On September 11 2010 06:05 ltortoise wrote: [quote]
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh...
anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type)
What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me.
Every time I've gone Void Ray harass, they lived and I brought them along for the main fight, they died in a split second to Stimmed Marine fire and the Viking(s) they originally built to drive off my harass (otherwise I would have kept harassing).
They have a range of 6, must accelerate and have a move speed of 2.25, which means they drop STUPID-fast to focus-fire from Marines and Vikings.
They don't work against Protoss or Zerg for exactly the same reason. They're big, slow, obvious and the acceleration rate and dependence on being ignored for 6 straight seconds just gets them killed.
They're not something you send into a straight-up battle unless the fight ended and he's got little to no AA left.
Banshees also have low hp, and a range of 6. They seem to work just fine, despite stalkers being around capable of focus firing. Maybe that's because when I do this, I actually use my ground army as a meat shield for my banshees?
The only reply I have for you is that You're Doing It Wrong.
Oh yes, sorry. Should be making my Zealots throw their Psi-Blades up in the air to bring them down.
Play Protoss and try it. Then you'll understand.
It's been done to me. That's all I really want to say about the topic. Void rays are a wonderful unit and can be used just fine as part of your main army, as long as you engage in the correct spots and in the correct fashion. People who throw their units away as "simply harassment units" are pretty much stupid, IMO.
Same with reapers. You can write them off as "just a harassment unit" and suicide them to free up supply, but in the end you're better off keeping them and adding them to your army, and microing them. I have won many games in the mid game with marauder/marine/reaper composition. The reapers do an excellent job of raping zerglings.
Marauders and Marines are clear outliers, though 2 Marines are not better than a Marauder unless you have +2. We can see that 10 Roaches kill buildings slower than 4 Marauders. An Immortal is clearly worse (and much more expensive) than 2 Marauders and an Ultra or a Thor are only slightly better. A DT is a little better than one Marauder but costs more than twice as much. Hydras are greatly outclassed. Zerglings have very high dps for their cost but they are obviously limited by the attack surface.
4 Marauders can kill a Hatchery in roughly 12 real seconds (about one full stim). 8 Marines are almost as fast but quite fragile in comparison and take longer to unload. If Marauders did not have any bonus damage against buildings they would be in line with the more expensive Stalkers and still significantly better than Roaches.
Unfortunately making buildings unarmoured would affect many other units, especially Immortals, and an exception only for Marauders would be an inelegant and strange solution. Perhaps the ability to snipe buildings will simply be a part of the overall balance of the Terran race down the line.
Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first?
I'm not discrediting them on the basis of the math alone. Experience has taught me that well enough. The math just supports my very well-earned pre-conceived notion.
Pretending like I'm dismissing it as just a harassment unit without having tried it as anything else is really just pretty downright hilarious.
On September 11 2010 06:55 Bibdy wrote: Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first?
Marines only have a range of 5. If you aren't abusing that little fact, You're Doing It Wrong. You are engaging in the wrong spots and in the wrong fashion. There's no reason at all to let 12 marines get in range of a single air unit. Ever.
On September 11 2010 06:55 Bibdy wrote: Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first?
Marines only have a range of 5. If you aren't abusing that little fact, You're Doing It Wrong. You are engaging in the wrong spots and in the wrong fashion. There's no reason at all to let 12 marines get in range of a single air unit. Ever.
Except when they've both got a move speed of 2.25, the air unit has to accelerate and the ground guys have got this little movement speed boosting ability.
Let me guess, I'm supposed to keep my Void Ray at full Charge and doing tons of damage while using it as bait all at the same time, yes?
Let's not forget the Vikings you originally made to drive away my Void Rays from harassment in the first place, either.
On September 11 2010 06:55 Bibdy wrote: Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first?
Marines only have a range of 5. If you aren't abusing that little fact, You're Doing It Wrong. You are engaging in the wrong spots and in the wrong fashion. There's no reason at all to let 12 marines get in range of a single air unit. Ever.
Except when they've both got a move speed of 2.25, the air unit has to accelerate and the ground guys have got this little movement speed boosting ability.
Let me guess, I'm supposed to keep my Void Ray at full Charge and doing tons of damage while using it as bait all at the same time, yes?
Let's not forget the Vikings you originally made to drive away my Void Rays from harassment in the first place, either.
...Or just put the Zealots in front as a shield? What am I supposed to do, target fire your void ray into a wall of zealots as all my anti-air gets instantly slaughtered? You can easily create a huge negative incentive for me to attack the void(s).
On September 11 2010 06:55 Bibdy wrote: Well then somebody doesn't produce themselves very many Marines.
Here's a fun bit of math:
Terran army with 12 Marines (that's not a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability = 6/0.8608 * 12 = 84 DPS, without Stim
Protoss army with 8 Stalkers (that's a lot): Total anti-air DPS capability (assuming shooting Banshees) = 10/1.44 * 8 =~ 56 DPS
Who's air units do you think are going to drop first?
Marines only have a range of 5. If you aren't abusing that little fact, You're Doing It Wrong. You are engaging in the wrong spots and in the wrong fashion. There's no reason at all to let 12 marines get in range of a single air unit. Ever.
Except when they've both got a move speed of 2.25, the air unit has to accelerate and the ground guys have got this little movement speed boosting ability.
Let me guess, I'm supposed to keep my Void Ray at full Charge and doing tons of damage while using it as bait all at the same time, yes?
Let's not forget the Vikings you originally made to drive away my Void Rays from harassment in the first place, either.
...Or just put the Zealots in front as a shield? What am I supposed to do, target fire your void ray into a wall of zealots as all my anti-air gets instantly slaughtered? You can easily create a huge negative incentive for me to attack the void(s).
Okay, let's break it down: You WILL have Vikings at this point. Guaranteed.
If you don't have Vikings at this point I'll just do what any good player does when they see their opponent massing tons of GtA units and building static defenses does: spam more air units and maintain complete air control. Marines can't be everywhere at once so if you depend on them and Missile Turrets entirely for your anti-air pleasure I'm eventually going to find a nice little cubby-hole to charge off of and then its pretty much over. You need something like 8 Marines per fully Charged Void Ray to bring it down, and if I don't like my odds, I'll just fly off and find another.
So, have we established you'll have Vikings? Yes? Okay. Ergo, your Vikings can be nailing the Void Ray(s) from complete safety above the Marine ball, meaning you get the first and continuous shots through the entire battle. The moment I approach with the Void Rays to do anything useful and start charging up on something, they get splattered by Marine fire.
So, am I to bait your Vikings to chase, with their superior range and gun them down with Stalkers and Zealots first, take out your Marines and Vikings, THEN send the Void Rays in? YES! Hence my original point that I can't use these things until you're out of AA, whether its through Collossi, Psi Storm or just raw ass kickery from Zealots and Stalkers, they're just crap.
ONLY if you're skimping on the Marines (e.g. I'm harassing with Stalkers a lot at the start of the match, forcing you to make lots of Marauders) and haven't got any Vikings can I make anything out of a Void Ray in a straight-up battle.
I'd be more in support of creating a new armor type. Call it "Building." Stuff that's supposed to do heavier damage to buildings can have bonuses against that armor type, kinda like banelings do.
Base defenses are fine to stay as "armored," especially since from a logic standpoint it makes total sense (you're going to put "armor" on a bunker or photon cannon). That way immortals and marauders can still do what they're supposed to do, but shouldn't be able to get in a transport and snipe off a tech building in 0 seconds flat.
As for Ultras, the headbutt attack frontloads more damage but it's less DPS (if that makes sense).
Furthermore, the headbutt doesn't splash, so clumped buildings take way less damage than they would otherwise. It's kinda why Blizzard is removing the headbutt, so I guess the point is moot.
You realize that only marauders cause this problem because they have stim. The issue is marauders having stim, not buildings being armored. Tanks, immos, stalkers, ultras, they all are fine.
On September 11 2010 07:28 Antares777 wrote: Marauders should do +8 vs armored, not +10 vs armored. Problem solved... I hope.
That's a really bad fix as it would noticably affect their combat strength but only slightly impact their ability to snipe buildings. Changing how stim works would fall into the same category. I think a big part of the reason why Marauders are designed the way they are is to make them semi-viable against Tank/Viking. So any potential change to Marauders should be something that does not affect their ability to kill sieged tanks. In fact I think Blizzard would like Marauders to be even stronger against Tanks if possible without unbalancing the unit elsewhere.
How about this: Marauders now have to headbutt buildings. This does 7 damage to the buildings and has a period of three seconds in between attacks. Each headbutt has a chance to push their head back into their suit, blinding them for thirty seconds. Blinded marauders fire randomly towards anything that sounds like an enemy. This includes your own units in TvT. A viable strategy may be to building a CC outside your opponent's expansion to blind all your marauders then use the higher DPS from shells to bring down the nexus quickly (if they hear the probes and fire in their general direction and hit the nexus).
On September 11 2010 07:28 Antares777 wrote: Marauders should do +8 vs armored, not +10 vs armored. Problem solved... I hope.
That's a really bad fix as it would noticably affect their combat strength but only slightly impact their ability to snipe buildings. Changing how stim works would fall into the same category. I think a big part of the reason why Marauders are designed the way they are is to make them semi-viable against Tank/Viking. So any potential change to Marauders should be something that does not affect their ability to kill sieged tanks. In fact I think Blizzard would like Marauders to be even stronger against Tanks if possible without unbalancing the unit elsewhere.
So, why don't they change Tanks to do 35 +15 vs. Light? I don't get why Tanks need to be good against Armoured, not Light. Why aren't tanks in normal mode a counter to Sieged Tanks?
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
I don't even know why I expect more than low silver leaguers on TL anymore... sigh...
anyway marauders feel too much like wc3 units (very strong and focused on a certain damage type)
What kind of post is this? Now you are insulting my skill? Well, I'm not silver league. Want to play some time? PM me.
yoyoyo chill out.
Here's some more math, but I'm not gonna use any numbers.
Marauders + Medivacs = good army
void rays + speed = basically a waste of money.
void rays by themselves + player perseverence = easy kills to vikings and huge investment for Protoss
You can't harass Terran very well as Protoss at all, the reason it's tough is marine/maruader drops kill stalkers pretty badly in small numbers while 6 stimmed marines and a viking can kill 2 void rays. So as Protoss you actually need a pretty large army in your main to stop drops, which means if you are on the other side of the map, with good micro Terran can kill your nexus a good portion of the time.
I'm not saying it's broken, but this is why some rude people are calling you a newbie and why this thread of was started in the first place (OP lost to a bunch of people Marauder dropping and wanted to see if other people were also having trouble)
On September 11 2010 08:03 blastedt wrote: How about this: Marauders now have to headbutt buildings. This does 7 damage to the buildings and has a period of three seconds in between attacks. Each headbutt has a chance to push their head back into their suit, blinding them for thirty seconds. Blinded marauders fire randomly towards anything that sounds like an enemy. This includes your own units in TvT. A viable strategy may be to building a CC outside your opponent's expansion to blind all your marauders then use the higher DPS from shells to bring down the nexus quickly (if they hear the probes and fire in their general direction and hit the nexus).
(This is a joke. Please don't hurt me.)
Very funny :p Sounds a lot like ultralisk :p
Voidrays, esp if they enter battle fully charged, is a good addition to your army *esp* in combination with FF.
Voidrays can also be used to harass expo/give map control/make your opponent "waste" resources in AA which might otherwise be not very useful beside to take out a few VRs.
I think this would be a decent, un game-breaking change. I was about to say that PF's would be even harder to kill, but realized they fall into the category of defensive buildings. I think the change would be decent...
Marauder drops now kill buildings at a brisk, but reasonable pace. Immortals don't kill depots ez mode (that would be kinda missed tho) A charged void ray can't take out a pylon, (supply blocking, and stopping stalker production) in 10 in-game seconds. Building armor (for terran) would actually be a very useful tool for pronlonging the life of non defense buildings, as most of the huge armor bonuses do not apply)
armored buildings arent a problem at all. no one complains about stalker, immortal, tank or ultra dmg to buildings.
its just the one retarded unit which is op in every single way and able to instant kill any building with a dropship or a-moving into 10 cannons or spines. i guess i dont need to name it, do i?
On September 11 2010 08:42 Lucius2 wrote: armored buildings arent a problem at all. no one complains about stalker, immortal, tank or ultra dmg to buildings.
its just the one retarded unit which is op in every single way and able to instant kill any building with a dropship or a-moving into 10 cannons or spines. i guess i dont need to name it, do i?
Unnecessary. Problem is though, Blizzard wants T to have an edge over the others because the game's called WoL. The upcoming patch fixes some of the problems people have been having with T, but it doesn't address the biggest one of them all.
on the opposite side, if they made banelings do bonus damage to light and armored instead of buildings id be more than happy to keep this system. Heheeheh even marauders would run.
But yeah buildings shouldnt be armoured. But what if terran get building armor +2 its like the benefits without the bad
On August 14 2010 04:58 zephyredx wrote: It might be a good idea to add a new "building" category so that only units that specifically target buildings like blings get the advantage.
Units such as the Ultralisk and Reaper already have attacks specifically for buildings. I think that if a unit does extra damage against buildings then they should require a special attack vs buildings just like ultras and reapers.
Speaking of Ultras, what is the purpose of the headbutt attack against buildings? Yeah it looks neat but the normal attack does more dps and it has splash. The only thing the headbutt seems to accomplish is to prevent splashing SCVs repairing the building.
Just seems weird to have a special attack that's worse than the normal one.
Rofl, never realized this. If it is actually worse than the default attack, it has to be an oversight from when they made ultras anti-armor.
I believe ultra's usual attack only does more dps than their headbutt if it has +3 claw upgrades
increasing the toughness of buildings overall would impact all the other units (that aren't marauders) far too much, the only solution imo is to do something about marauder drops, maybe make it so medivacs can only load up half their current capacity unless you upgrade them or something
although that wouldn't really solve it I guess...
I'm not going to say marauders are pure imba but they are very very strong compared to roaches and stalkers, they should probably reduce the gap between how much damage marauders do to armored vs how much they do to non-armored though... and also think about lowering their overall damage too
On September 11 2010 09:17 Jameser wrote: increasing the toughness of buildings overall would impact all the other units (that aren't marauders) far too much, the only solution imo is to do something about marauder drops, maybe make it so medivacs can only load up half their current capacity unless you upgrade them or something
although that wouldn't really solve it I guess...
I'm not going to say marauders are pure imba but they are very very strong compared to roaches and stalkers, they should probably reduce the gap between how much damage marauders do to armored vs how much they do to non-armored though... and also think about lowering their overall damage too
They can readjust it by giving things like Immortals and Siege Tanks different attacks/damage vs Structures, similar to Banelings and Reapers. Its not something that's impossible to adjust outside of the normal game mechanics.
On September 11 2010 08:42 Lucius2 wrote: armored buildings arent a problem at all. no one complains about stalker, immortal, tank or ultra dmg to buildings.
its just the one retarded unit which is op in every single way and able to instant kill any building with a dropship or a-moving into 10 cannons or spines. i guess i dont need to name it, do i?
Unnecessary. Problem is though, Blizzard wants T to have an edge over the others because the game's called WoL. The upcoming patch fixes some of the problems people have been having with T, but it doesn't address the biggest one of them all.
On September 11 2010 08:42 Lucius2 wrote: armored buildings arent a problem at all. no one complains about stalker, immortal, tank or ultra dmg to buildings.
its just the one retarded unit which is op in every single way and able to instant kill any building with a dropship or a-moving into 10 cannons or spines. i guess i dont need to name it, do i?
Unnecessary. Problem is though, Blizzard wants T to have an edge over the others because the game's called WoL. The upcoming patch fixes some of the problems people have been having with T, but it doesn't address the biggest one of them all.
what the fuck are you talking about?
The usual, stupid "Wings of Liberty implies Terran was designed to be overpowered" crying.
On September 11 2010 08:42 Lucius2 wrote: armored buildings arent a problem at all. no one complains about stalker, immortal, tank or ultra dmg to buildings.
its just the one retarded unit which is op in every single way and able to instant kill any building with a dropship or a-moving into 10 cannons or spines. i guess i dont need to name it, do i?
Unnecessary. Problem is though, Blizzard wants T to have an edge over the others because the game's called WoL. The upcoming patch fixes some of the problems people have been having with T, but it doesn't address the biggest one of them all.
what the fuck are you talking about?
The usual, stupid "Wings of Liberty implies Terran was designed to be overpowered" crying.
this logic comes from WoW players noticing how in every WoW-expansion, the class that suits the storyline the best suddenly becomes super powerful
(for example; warlocks in TBC, paladin/DK in wotlk)
On September 11 2010 09:17 Jameser wrote: increasing the toughness of buildings overall would impact all the other units (that aren't marauders) far too much, the only solution imo is to do something about marauder drops, maybe make it so medivacs can only load up half their current capacity unless you upgrade them or something
How about just scouting the god damned map so you can see them coming and react in time?
On September 11 2010 09:17 Jameser wrote: increasing the toughness of buildings overall would impact all the other units (that aren't marauders) far too much, the only solution imo is to do something about marauder drops, maybe make it so medivacs can only load up half their current capacity unless you upgrade them or something
How about just scouting the god damned map so you can see them coming and react in time?
So much QQ in this thread.
I wish TL had a mute function because you just keep saying stupid things in every thread I read man...
you can't have a game that's only balanced if both players play absolutely perfectly... pretty self explanatory...
On September 11 2010 09:17 Jameser wrote: increasing the toughness of buildings overall would impact all the other units (that aren't marauders) far too much, the only solution imo is to do something about marauder drops, maybe make it so medivacs can only load up half their current capacity unless you upgrade them or something
How about just scouting the god damned map so you can see them coming and react in time?
So much QQ in this thread.
I wish TL had a mute function because you just keep saying stupid things in every thread I read man...
you can't have a game that's only balanced if both players play absolutely perfectly... pretty self explanatory...
Sorry to say but that's how it works. Neither brood war or SC2 is balanced around people who fuck up all the time.
People always bring up this "difficulty" bullshit, as if it's "imbalanced" for something to have a counter that's more difficult to execute than the attack. I never understood this.
It's not simply the Marauder. It's the fact that just getting a unit to heal your army, a unit which you are getting anyway(!) automatically gives Terran access to drops. So if you're playing against a Terran, you always have to be prepared for drops. The fact that the units that make up the bulk of their army are the same units that they will use in a drop means that unlike the other two races, they pay no opportunity cost for going drops. They won't have a smaller army, they won't be building a unit or getting an upgrade just to drop.
Very different from back in BW, where if you wanted to heal your drops, you'd have to use some space for medics. Plus they required using those starports for dropships instead of science vessels.
I honestly think it is the marauder. The OP stated it well. Other units that rape buildings:
Siege Tanks Reapers DT drop Immortals VR rush Ultralisks (which are actually getting buffed v buildings in important respects in the next patch) Muta Snipe (outlying buildings)
The above tactics all require significant effort or a substantial risk of loss VR/DT/Reapers/Mutas are all glass cannon and easily preventable, so their use is only if the opponent is leaving themselves vulnerable, and none of these units generally are made to work well in a 1a Siege Tanks and Immortals don't really drop that well into a base (ignoring cliff abuse), if the player is steadily crawling with tanks or sending in Immortals with a 1a then you can't really complain. Ultras are tier3 and Z tier3 takes forever, if you let the game go on that long you should be able to counter or should have already won/lost
Marauders however are a basic unit that has a place in every major composition. They are relatively cheap for their power (not a gas sink whatsoever) and can easily be massed to run them in with stim or drop them in main with stim. This can take out multiple tech buildings in a matter of seconds even if you have the army there to kill them.
I hate to be broken record here but the marauder unit in its current form doesn't seem right.
I think the idea of only defensive structures have armor is an interesting compromise which would leave the stimpak on the marauder yet deal with one of the most annoying aspects of the marauder.
On September 11 2010 10:43 eth3n wrote: I honestly think it is the marauder. The OP stated it well. Other units that rape buildings:
Siege Tanks Reapers DT drop Immortals VR rush Ultralisks (which are actually getting buffed v buildings in important respects in the next patch) Muta Snipe (outlying buildings)
The above tactics all require significant effort or a substantial risk of loss VR/DT/Reapers/Mutas are all glass cannon and easily preventable, so their use is only if the opponent is leaving themselves vulnerable, and none of these units generally are made to work well in a 1a Siege Tanks and Immortals don't really drop that well into a base (ignoring cliff abuse), if the player is steadily crawling with tanks or sending in Immortals with a 1a then you can't really complain. Ultras are tier3 and Z tier3 takes forever, if you let the game go on that long you should be able to counter or should have already won/lost
Marauders however are a basic unit that has a place in every major composition. They are relatively cheap for their power (not a gas sink whatsoever) and can easily be massed to run them in with stim or drop them in main with stim. This can take out multiple tech buildings in a matter of seconds even if you have the army there to kill them.
I hate to be broken record here but the marauder unit in its current form doesn't seem right.
I think the idea of only defensive structures have armor is an interesting compromise which would leave the stimpak on the marauder yet deal with one of the most annoying aspects of the marauder.
Pretty much. Stimmed Marauders are the most retarded thing in the game right now.
I really think it's fine as is. I've never had an issue with the damage values units do to buildings. Granted I've been annoyed a few times when my static defense melts to a couple immortals, but that's really my fault for allowing them free range on my defense.
They need a new system verus buildings imo or just take away the armored effect. Stimmed marauders can kill 1/2 your base in 20 seconds when stimmed is a little much
It would be interesting to have buildings balanced by their armor type at least in some form. As it is now they are all generally under one umbrella. Could we see a change in a future patch or expansion release? I hope so. But I don't think it is needed at all, just something that could add flavor for new unit interactions.
On September 11 2010 10:43 eth3n wrote: I honestly think it is the marauder. The OP stated it well. Other units that rape buildings:
Siege Tanks Reapers DT drop Immortals VR rush Ultralisks (which are actually getting buffed v buildings in important respects in the next patch) Muta Snipe (outlying buildings)
The above tactics all require significant effort or a substantial risk of loss VR/DT/Reapers/Mutas are all glass cannon and easily preventable, so their use is only if the opponent is leaving themselves vulnerable, and none of these units generally are made to work well in a 1a Siege Tanks and Immortals don't really drop that well into a base (ignoring cliff abuse), if the player is steadily crawling with tanks or sending in Immortals with a 1a then you can't really complain. Ultras are tier3 and Z tier3 takes forever, if you let the game go on that long you should be able to counter or should have already won/lost
Marauders however are a basic unit that has a place in every major composition. They are relatively cheap for their power (not a gas sink whatsoever) and can easily be massed to run them in with stim or drop them in main with stim. This can take out multiple tech buildings in a matter of seconds even if you have the army there to kill them.
I hate to be broken record here but the marauder unit in its current form doesn't seem right.
I think the idea of only defensive structures have armor is an interesting compromise which would leave the stimpak on the marauder yet deal with one of the most annoying aspects of the marauder.
Game. Set. Match. Gameover. End of Game.
I personally think taking Armored off buildings or adding a new category for them would potentially muddle things up pretty badly. Marauders without stim do really nasty things to buildings even in small numbers, but with stim four marauders can wreck a hatch faster than nearby speedlings (their most effective counter in that small of a number) can engage and kill them without losing the Hatch In my mind the solution is simply removing stim from Marauders.
People will argue that they won't be able to kite as well, but Marauders shouldn't need stim AND concussive shell to kite. Removing stim from Marauders will force terran players to make more tanks/thors, which promoted more varied unit compositions (something Blizzard loves) and punishes a terran player going marauder like they're going out of style. 60 stimmed marines can be pretty nasty to deal with but they still have counters. 30 stimmed marauders don't really have a single viable counter short of air, but with stim they can still sprint to their target, annihilate it, and have served their purpose. Some of them (if not most) will most likely survive the attack, and get back to the player's base. It's stim on marauders that I have issue with.
No units, not even the ones intended to destroy buildings, decimate structures like Marauders do. And none of the anti-building units have the availability of Marauders (not even reapers, given the building time disparity, which will only become more drastic in the upcoming patch). Marauders seemed to be a unit initially designed with a fairly specific purpose in mind, but specialized units should be something you punish an opponent for getting. There's simply no way to punish terran massing marauders short of going mass air, at which point your ground army is so weak that Marauder army can simply A-move your base and win.
Regarding stim: I had an idea that's probably going to be shot down as terrible but I think that the health cost shouldn't be able to be healed by medivacs. As is, there is absolutely no downside to stimming over and over if you have a handful of medivacs over your army. Stimming should have drawbacks, it doesn't right now.
Let's nerf marauders and/or medivacs and see how little complaints there are about buildings being armored after. And I'm serious here, I can't think of any other problem with buildings being armored than the marauder and its ability to be dropped cheaply, easily, in multiple locations with little effort on the attacker's part to snipe tech/main bases. If you can provide another example of why buildings shouldn't be armored I'll hear it out.
The main issue with marauder drops compared to ultralisk and immortal drops is the same issue the OP stated; almost no risk for a big reward. Toss has to get the Warp Prism, which while being nifty, serves no real combat purpose, and zerg has to spend 300/300 for overlord speed/drop, whereas terran gets their dropship from a unit that already heals their army, theres literally NO downside.If maybe medivacs needed a 200/200 or 150/150 upgrade that let them drop, it'd be less ridiculous, but as of now, the amount of risk a terran takes to drop is way, way, WAY lower than other races.
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
First, stargate units do not have incredibly high hp. Individually a void ray may have 250 hp, but when you consider you could get 440 hp worth of marines, or 375 hp worth of marauder. Secondly, void rays have to be charged to even get their full dps out. Unless the terran is terrible, he is going to make this hard for the protoss. And even when the void rays are charged, they are not spectacular against marines, only about average. A terran player can quickly pump out vikings to out range and rape the void rays. When you have 12+ void rays, it's VERY hard to get them all charged.
Banshees are a very strong complement to a terran's army because:
-They have a very competetive damage, stalker vs banshee cost effieciency is almost the same -They can take a lot of shots from the primary anti-air -They can CLOAK when upgraded, and 2-shot probes -They do not need to charge -They're damage is better on light units -The terran ball synergizes well with banshee, as any combination of terran ground (think tanks, marauder, marines) demolishes stalkers.
Marauders in the end-game are:
-Massable (small profile means even the back row of marauders is always shooting) -Durable (1 base armor, 105 hp when stimmed, they can weather most aoe's and survive to be healed by the medivac) -Fast (unthinkably fast, they are the same speed as SPEED RAYS when stimmed) -Base razers (as this thread points out)
If i'm not mistaken all buildings are classified as armored. It seems like buildings fall much too fast to units that do bonus damage to armored. This means that units such as Marauders can take down buildings insanely fast especially late game in large quantities. Marauders are the main issue because they are a easily massable unit that does +damage to armored and when you combined them with stim, it causes Marauder balls to annihilate buildings with no risk since Marauders are amazing units just to have in your army. It just doesn't feel right when an army of Marauders come in, stim, and run around sniping buildings in 1 volley. I'm totally into units that do bonus damage specifically against buildings such as Reapers. What I don't like is having massable units that do +damage vs armored. Its too much reward without risk imo. This would fix marauders and give reapers more of a defined role and even give Reapers more viability as the game progresses.
I've heard this suggestion before. And it all boils down to one thing: Marauders.
If your problem is how much damage Marauders do, then fix that. Buildings don't need to be changed for the sake of one unit.
On September 11 2010 11:07 HubertFelix wrote: The armor should be changed. Marauders drop cannot be stopped by static defense which is kind of crazy for a unit that has such a low gas cost.
Seriously, it's like a reaver drop, it's dumb.
You are wrong . Marauder drops are like reavers in damage, but unlike reavers, marauders share the agility of the speedlings, hitpoints of stalkers, + the never ending slow spell...
Does anyone else thing marauders should be +5 to armor, and conshell should work similarly to chargelots cooldown.
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
First, stargate units do not have incredibly high hp.
If you read my quote a little better you'll realize I was talking about the Phoenix, which does have fantastic hp. It's 150/100 for 180hp. Compare that to a viking, 150/75 for 125hp.
Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.
On September 11 2010 05:47 Piy wrote: It does feel a little tough when Marauders can snipe a nexus so fast, but I'm not willing to call it imbalanced yet.
It's not like two void rays can't snipe buildings pretty damned quick, too. Actually, faster than 4 marauders!
Four marauders + medivac cost 500/200. They do ((10 + 10) - 1) * 4 damage per attack, add stim and the cooldown is 1, so 76 DPS.
Two void rays cost 500/300. They do (25 - 1) * 2 damage per attack, with a cooldown of .6, so 80 DPS (fully charged)
Yes, they take time to charge, but the medivac has to unload, so it evens out IMO.
Food for thought: 8 zerglings with 0 upgdrades do (5 - 1) * 8 damage with a cooldown of .7, so ~46 DPS to buildings (!!!). That doesn't seem like much, but it only costs 300/0, and don't Zerg's have the biggest gas problems of all races?. Of course without the upgrade overlords are slow as hell though, but still food for thought. With +1, two overlords full of lings are dishing out 115 DPS, with the modest cost of 600/0.
I'm starting to think a lot of the complaints are stemming from the popularity of marauder drops. Other races can do similar things for similar costs.
the big difference is void rays are pretty much useless except for voidray rushes, while marauders are part of the standard terran army anyway...
(yes this matters hugely)
I don't agree with this statement.
Why can't a void ray be a part of the protoss army? Everybody jizzed their pants when Terrans started keeping their banshees as a part of their main army when the harassing phase was over, to fantastic effect. I see no reason why Protoss can't do that with void rays, especially if there are a lot of marauders on the field. Keep the void rays in back, firing down at the front line. They can do LOADS of damage...
because starports can be used for many other units that benefit the terran army (medivac, raven, reactionary vikings etc)
stargates can only build phoenix and void rays and as such are a much bigger investment. (not counting BCs and carriers, although here too BCs are clearly superior to carriers)
...? Stargate is also easier to get to, and phoenix have many uses, such as countering ALL Terran air if massed (due to their incredibly high hp and fantastic speed).
I don't understand your points.
First, stargate units do not have incredibly high hp.
If you read my quote a little better you'll realize I was talking about the Phoenix, which does have fantastic hp. It's 150/100 for 180hp. Compare that to a viking, 150/75 for 125hp.
And when pheonixes rapes all terran units eh? Don't use the traits of two seperate units and roll them together. Based on your previous posts, it seems you are saying:
Because terran can mix air and ground units in an effecient manner, why can't protoss?
Void rays can't use their strength, which is being charged against armored units, because they A: are difficult to charge B: will be shooting marines C: will be shot by marines (high dps), and get taken out before they can do much damage.
Pheonixes, against a mixed bio ball...just don't do anything. Lifting A unit? Not going to work.
On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote: Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.
Yes, but they are very fragile units. In this respect they served a specialized role: making your opponent want to rip his hair out.
On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote: Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.
Yes, but they are very fragile units. In this respect they served a specialized role: making your opponent want to rip his hair out.
Imagine if Mutalisks had a 30 damage attack to buildings, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
On September 11 2010 10:29 caewil wrote: It's not simply the Marauder. It's the fact that just getting a unit to heal your army, a unit which you are getting anyway(!) automatically gives Terran access to drops. So if you're playing against a Terran, you always have to be prepared for drops. The fact that the units that make up the bulk of their army are the same units that they will use in a drop means that unlike the other two races, they pay no opportunity cost for going drops. They won't have a smaller army, they won't be building a unit or getting an upgrade just to drop.
Very different from back in BW, where if you wanted to heal your drops, you'd have to use some space for medics. Plus they required using those starports for dropships instead of science vessels.
Exactly.
To top it off, they made the decision to go medivac easier by giving ghosts the EMP ability making them walking and healable science vessels in any Protoss engagement. You rarely see ravens in the game thanks to this stupid decision. Imagine if they gave Protoss feedback on the dark templars - nobody would call that balanced now would they? I guarantee we'd get oceans of Terran tears however, the small changes that have been proposed for 1.1 change very little and solve hardly any problems and already we have quite a number of Terran players calling it game breaking. It'll be funny if one day hardly anyone plays any of the other races anymore and SC2 becomes a major flop in comparison to BW.
I wish I could change my vote to keeping buildings armored. Giving them a new type is a shortsighted decision. I like that armored buildings add extra value to units like immortals and void rays (lol) for building snipes. Only marauders need to be changed, they're way too massable to be building snipers too. I'd rather see a reaper squad sniping buildings because they're weaker in battles at that stage, but marauders took their jobs!
i mean reaper drops would be awesome for building snipes, fragile, but a lot of dmg. that would actually be pretty balanced imo, unlike the bullshit how it is right now with drops.
On September 11 2010 13:00 Lucius2 wrote: i mean reaper drops would be awesome for building snipes, fragile, but a lot of dmg. that would actually be pretty balanced imo, unlike the bullshit how it is right now with drops.
Both are fast but Marauders do more damage, take less time to build, are more durable, are just as fast while stimmed, can slow, can counter many more unit types, cost less gas (1/2 as much), and form into many army comps.
2 medivacs with 8 marauders cost: 1000min 400gas
1 medivac with 8 reapers (and twice the unloading time) cost: 500min 500gas
I've seen too many games with limitless potential for epicness ended because a stimmed marauder drop killed a nexus and the defender didn't have 400 minerals to replace it with, thus ending the game.
Yeah, I too find that buildings go down way too fast in this game. Heck, they usually go down too fast even to normal units and just die stupidly fast vs anything that does +armored.
I would personally find it more fun if buildings were actually tough to kill and required some planning as opposed to dropping a single dropship worth of units and sniping whatever you like in a few seconds before the opponent might even notice.
Yeah I don't think buildings should be armored, especially if the only unit for me that take down buildings fast is ultras even though none of our units do bonus to armored. -.-
On September 11 2010 12:49 Rah wrote: I wish I could change my vote to keeping buildings armored. Giving them a new type is a shortsighted decision. I like that armored buildings add extra value to units like immortals and void rays (lol) for building snipes. Only marauders need to be changed, they're way too massable to be building snipers too. I'd rather see a reaper squad sniping buildings because they're weaker in battles at that stage, but marauders took their jobs!
I think although we love void rays and immortals, most protoss players would be willing to bite the bullet to end the marauder slaughter on nexuses.
there was a prolonged excitement in groups of units sniping buildings in a main in brood war, but in the GSL and in a lot of other games the effect is somewhat lost when two medivacs full of marauders stim and kill town halls before the observer even has a chance to move the screen to watch it
An interesting side-grade with this would be a 1 second morph for supply depots. It makes them armored but allows them to pop up and down. Just putting it out there.
On September 11 2010 12:49 Rah wrote: I wish I could change my vote to keeping buildings armored. Giving them a new type is a shortsighted decision. I like that armored buildings add extra value to units like immortals and void rays (lol) for building snipes. Only marauders need to be changed, they're way too massable to be building snipers too. I'd rather see a reaper squad sniping buildings because they're weaker in battles at that stage, but marauders took their jobs!
I think although we love void rays and immortals, most protoss players would be willing to bite the bullet to end the marauder slaughter on nexuses.
edit: wrong quote
A handful of marines or a single viking can deal with void rays easily and these are accessible and cheap counters not even considering missle turrets.
Immortals are nowhere near as effective as marauders (well nothing is effective as marauder drops) and can't heal, kite, move fast, and kill a large number of unit types with ease.
On September 11 2010 11:37 cyprin wrote: Regarding stim: I had an idea that's probably going to be shot down as terrible but I think that the health cost shouldn't be able to be healed by medivacs. As is, there is absolutely no downside to stimming over and over if you have a handful of medivacs over your army. Stimming should have drawbacks, it doesn't right now.
I don't think this will fix the issue, but I have LOVED the idea of stim affecting the MAXIMUM health of the unit for a long time (meaning permanent -10hp). I highly doubt this will come to pass, but right now medivacs TRIVIALIZE stimpak.
This isn't completely germane (sorry), but I couldn't resist.
On September 11 2010 11:37 cyprin wrote: Regarding stim: I had an idea that's probably going to be shot down as terrible but I think that the health cost shouldn't be able to be healed by medivacs. As is, there is absolutely no downside to stimming over and over if you have a handful of medivacs over your army. Stimming should have drawbacks, it doesn't right now.
I don't think this will fix the issue, but I have LOVED the idea of stim affecting the MAXIMUM health of the unit for a long time (meaning permanent -10hp). I highly doubt this will come to pass, but right now medivacs TRIVIALIZE stimpak.
This isn't completely germane (sorry), but I couldn't resist.
On September 11 2010 13:19 RavenNevermore wrote: I've seen too many games with limitless potential for epicness ended because a stimmed marauder drop killed a nexus and the defender didn't have 400 minerals to replace it with, thus ending the game.
Yes this is not a L2P issue, plenty of Pros are losing because of the speed with which Marauders kill buildings.
Yeah, the issue is really with the marauders. Even if marines can do similar dps they are more vulnerable to a multitude of defenses (speedlings, queens, mutas, zealots, ht, cannons) that are not really a significant threat to marauders in low numbers. Combine this with the fact that Medivacs are the best dropships by far (faster, tougher and a legitimate combat unit) and it is just insane.
On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote: Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.
Yes, but they are very fragile units. In this respect they served a specialized role: making your opponent want to rip his hair out.
Imagine if Mutalisks had a 30 damage attack to buildings, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
Imagine if Reapers flew and had 90 health, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
....
Anyway you people are kind of missing the point imo. It isn't a damage issue, its a mobility issue. Everything in Starcraft 2 got so much more mobile. Except for bases. :/.
You people are just blaming marauder because there the most common manifestation of a bigger problem. Marauders are fine, go show me a single high level player complaining about rauders.
You know what I think? Well, in SC1, units were just as effective against buildings, but due to clumsy pathing and large radius sizes, and 12 limit unit select, it was far harder to effectively snipe anything.
Now, its just an incredibly streamlined process. Get your medics along with yo healers, and drop a few very easy to micro units somewhere and hope for the best. If not, ohwell, the pressure was worth it.
How do we fix this? Well, I don't know, but silly contrived damage changes won't do anything.
In WC3 buildings have their own special armour type called Fortified, which only siege units are strong against. Defensive Towers however generally start off with only Heavy armour, which is a lot easier for units to kill.
The issue isn't with buildings being armored, it's with Marauder stim. Likewise, Marauder stim enables them to counter a bunch of things they aren't supposed to, like Hydralisks. It's the backbone of Terran's overpoweredness.
I think Marauder stim should be changed, not building armor.
On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote: Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.
Yes, but they are very fragile units. In this respect they served a specialized role: making your opponent want to rip his hair out.
Imagine if Mutalisks had a 30 damage attack to buildings, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
Imagine if Reapers flew and had 90 health, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
....
Anyway you people are kind of missing the point imo. It isn't a damage issue, its a mobility issue. Everything in Starcraft 2 got so much more mobile. Except for bases. :/.
You people are just blaming marauder because there the most common manifestation of a bigger problem. Marauders are fine, go show me a single high level player complaining about rauders.
You know what I think? Well, in SC1, units were just as effective against buildings, but due to clumsy pathing and large radius sizes, and 12 limit unit select, it was far harder to effectively snipe anything.
Now, its just an incredibly streamlined process. Get your medics along with yo healers, and drop a few very easy to micro units somewhere and hope for the best. If not, ohwell, the pressure was worth it.
How do we fix this? Well, I don't know, but silly contrived damage changes won't do anything.
Are you serious or just trolling us?
The Marauder was called IMBA by almost very top-player and still is since day1 of the Beta!...
And in SC:BW, Units weren't nearly as effective against Buildings, especially static defense, just look at the following facts:
- Units had less range, so attacking Sunken Colonies was much harder with Marines than it is now with Marauders. - There were no Units dealing double DMG or even more against Buildings, or is there a Unit in SC:BW that can snipe Buildings as effective as Reapers or Stimmed-Marauders? Cracklings, which came out on T3 were considered "building annihilators" and they are a joke compared to how fast stimmed marauders take down buildings. - There were no Units that could hop cliffs and stuff, so static defense in front of your base actually meant that the opposing players had to penetrate this barrier before he could wreak havoc in your base. Thanks to reapers, this isn't the case anymore. - Air-Units that weren't Tier3 had a very short air-to-ground range, so Turrets/Spore Crawlers and Cannons actually could protect your base very well. If you want to defend against Voidrays or banshees with Anti-Air Static defense, you need much more to protect your whole base. Just compare the aior-to-ground range of Wraiths, Scouts and Mutas from SC:BW with Banshees and Voidrays in SC2 - Much bigger range, except the Mutas in SC2. Now compare the range of Anti-Air structures - same range as in SC:BW - there has to be sth. wrong here!
Static defense is worth nothing in SC2 and sniping buildings is far too easy.
Nothing until T2 should do additional DMG to buildings and static defense should get +1 range accross the board (except Turrets, cuz they are VERY strong against Mutas and would just be totally broken, cuz they do much more DMG than other static defense and there even is a +1 range Upgrade). Another approach could be to give Marauders, banshees and Voidrays -1 Range, which would actually make a lot of sense as well.
On September 11 2010 18:00 Cade)Flayer wrote: In WC3 buildings have their own special armour type called Fortified, which only siege units are strong against. Defensive Towers however generally start off with only Heavy armour, which is a lot easier for units to kill.
It's a good system which SC2 should copy.
This is a good suggestion. I don't think the current system is working that well. I think the game that illustrates this well is tester vs a terran(forgot his name t.t) on scrap station in GSL ro64. Terran just uses medivac drops to completely destroy testers main. OFC this is a map specific thing as some maps don't really allow for amazing drop play the same way SS does but there are enough that its an issue.
Also Tester won that game but that shouldn't take away from my point. I mean tester is prob favored to win the whole dam thing anyway.
i think it would be better if only static defenses wouldn't be considered armored (Cannon, Spine, Turret...). It also makes kinda more sense: the buildings with less hp are not armored, buildings with high hp are.
On September 11 2010 18:00 Cade)Flayer wrote: In WC3 buildings have their own special armour type called Fortified, which only siege units are strong against. Defensive Towers however generally start off with only Heavy armour, which is a lot easier for units to kill.
It's a good system which SC2 should copy.
This is a good suggestion. I don't think the current system is working that well. I think the game that illustrates this well is tester vs a terran(forgot his name t.t) on scrap station in GSL ro64. Terran just uses medivac drops to completely destroy testers main. OFC this is a map specific thing as some maps don't really allow for amazing drop play the same way SS does but there are enough that its an issue.
Also Tester won that game but that shouldn't take away from my point. I mean tester is prob favored to win the whole dam thing anyway.
If the Terran actually threw down a ghost academy and got 1-2 ghosts to EMP Tester's HTs, I'm certain that Tester would've lost. The only reason his army was so powerful was because he could completely blanket the T's army in storms.
I do agree with the building armor type change. Just make void rays and immortals have a special building type attack (much like reapers and ultras already do) and everything should be fine.
There are many things i don't agree with the unit marauder, but the one i don't like the most is indeed the building sniping, mainly hatchery and nexus sniping. It's ridiculous. Both protoss and zerg need double or triple the units, cost or number, to be able to take down buildings so fast.
Terran makes a drop in protoss and zerg base, they cause wreck and havoc, destroying nexus or hatcheries worth of 400 minerals and a lot of time to build, or important tech buildings in a matter of seconds. If protoss goes with blink stalkers, (what other P common massable unit attacks air by the way? because it's sure as the sky is blue that the terran will lift up his buildings) poor him, they have very little dps even aggainst armored units like buildings, they can only hope to kill a few techlabs, reactors or scvs. If he brings a warp prism it's obvious he can't aim to destroy any building, only lonely units left behind or scvs. Same for a zerg player who does a drop, being that the terran can lift his buildings and only the hydras will attack.
I have no doubt, taking out this sniping ability from marauders, either making builings unarmored or some other way, would improve gameplay for all races, and make playing protoss or zerg more forgiving, coming close to how forgiving playing terran is.
I voted no because the idea of buildings that very clearly have armored plates on them no being considered armored is dumb, though I suppose the same could be said for zerg buildings being considered armored, when they don't have such obvious adornments(other than maybe the possibility of some sort of chitinous exoskeleton) and don't take extra damage from units like the hellion. So I suppose there is fallacy on either end of the logic argument. Well can't change my vote now, but w/e I actually think this would be a good change now that I mull it a bit, stimmed marines kill buildings faster than stimmed marauders anyways.
On September 11 2010 18:56 DminusTerran wrote: I voted no because the idea of buildings that very clearly have armored plates on them no being considered armored is dumb, though I suppose the same could be said for zerg buildings being considered armored, when they don't have such obvious adornments(other than maybe the possibility of some sort of chitinous exoskeleton) and don't take extra damage from units like the hellion. So I suppose there is fallacy on either end of the logic argument. Well can't change my vote now, but w/e I actually think this would be a good change now that I mull it a bit, stimmed marines kill buildings faster than stimmed marauders anyways.
Realism has nothing to do here, it's all about balance.
On September 11 2010 18:56 DminusTerran wrote: I voted no because the idea of buildings that very clearly have armored plates on them no being considered armored is dumb, though I suppose the same could be said for zerg buildings being considered armored, when they don't have such obvious adornments(other than maybe the possibility of some sort of chitinous exoskeleton) and don't take extra damage from units like the hellion. So I suppose there is fallacy on either end of the logic argument. Well can't change my vote now, but w/e I actually think this would be a good change now that I mull it a bit, stimmed marines kill buildings faster than stimmed marauders anyways.
Realism has nothing to do here, it's all about balance.
On September 11 2010 19:07 abrasion wrote: As long as Marauders are in the game with stim and the damage output they have, yes buildings should be armoured.
On September 11 2010 18:56 DminusTerran wrote: I voted no because the idea of buildings that very clearly have armored plates on them no being considered armored is dumb, though I suppose the same could be said for zerg buildings being considered armored, when they don't have such obvious adornments(other than maybe the possibility of some sort of chitinous exoskeleton) and don't take extra damage from units like the hellion. So I suppose there is fallacy on either end of the logic argument. Well can't change my vote now, but w/e I actually think this would be a good change now that I mull it a bit, stimmed marines kill buildings faster than stimmed marauders anyways.
Marines can be killed fast, but stimmed marauders will run around and snipe nexus anyway. It takes time to kill them.
As for realism, I think most stupid is medivac - how do they heal from the air?
No they should not be armored. Thats one of the reasons why this game feels a lot like Command and Conquer. But wait a second - wasn't it the same guys that developed C&C generals that developed this? *Hint Hint*
On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote: Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.
Yes, but they are very fragile units. In this respect they served a specialized role: making your opponent want to rip his hair out.
Imagine if Mutalisks had a 30 damage attack to buildings, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
Imagine if Reapers flew and had 90 health, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
....
Anyway you people are kind of missing the point imo. It isn't a damage issue, its a mobility issue. Everything in Starcraft 2 got so much more mobile. Except for bases. :/.
You people are just blaming marauder because there the most common manifestation of a bigger problem. Marauders are fine, go show me a single high level player complaining about rauders.
You know what I think? Well, in SC1, units were just as effective against buildings, but due to clumsy pathing and large radius sizes, and 12 limit unit select, it was far harder to effectively snipe anything.
Now, its just an incredibly streamlined process. Get your medics along with yo healers, and drop a few very easy to micro units somewhere and hope for the best. If not, ohwell, the pressure was worth it.
How do we fix this? Well, I don't know, but silly contrived damage changes won't do anything.
Are you serious or just trolling us?
The Marauder was called IMBA by almost very top-player and still is since day1 of the Beta!...
And in SC:BW, Units weren't nearly as effective against Buildings, especially static defense, just look at the following facts:
- Units had less range, so attacking Sunken Colonies was much harder with Marines than it is now with Marauders. - There were no Units dealing double DMG or even more against Buildings, or is there a Unit in SC:BW that can snipe Buildings as effective as Reapers or Stimmed-Marauders? Cracklings, which came out on T3 were considered "building annihilators" and they are a joke compared to how fast stimmed marauders take down buildings. - There were no Units that could hop cliffs and stuff, so static defense in front of your base actually meant that the opposing players had to penetrate this barrier before he could wreak havoc in your base. Thanks to reapers, this isn't the case anymore. - Air-Units that weren't Tier3 had a very short air-to-ground range, so Turrets/Spore Crawlers and Cannons actually could protect your base very well. If you want to defend against Voidrays or banshees with Anti-Air Static defense, you need much more to protect your whole base. Just compare the aior-to-ground range of Wraiths, Scouts and Mutas from SC:BW with Banshees and Voidrays in SC2 - Much bigger range, except the Mutas in SC2. Now compare the range of Anti-Air structures - same range as in SC:BW - there has to be sth. wrong here!
Static defense is worth nothing in SC2 and sniping buildings is far too easy.
Nothing until T2 should do additional DMG to buildings and static defense should get +1 range accross the board (except Turrets, cuz they are VERY strong against Mutas and would just be totally broken, cuz they do much more DMG than other static defense and there even is a +1 range Upgrade). Another approach could be to give Marauders, banshees and Voidrays -1 Range, which would actually make a lot of sense as well.
This guy is telling the truth.
I mean take a look at the air to ground units in SC1 - The range differences are hideous. Choosing static defense versus the Voids/Banshee is a mistake you do once. One of the things i actually liked about WC2 (if i recall correctly) and SC1 was that buildings were quite tanky.
And besides - since you mention the banshee, the unit is nothing but a C&C 1 rip off, The Orca in SC 2 model.
I think you could remove the armor damage form marauders altogether and boost their base damage to 15... getting pretty sick of all the +damage going around in sc2.. this isn't supposed to be wc4 >.<
On September 11 2010 20:13 Jameser wrote: I think you could remove the armor damage form marauders altogether and boost their base damage to 15... getting pretty sick of all the +damage going around in sc2.. this isn't supposed to be wc4 >.<
In War3 units had like 500++ health too. But in SC1 things died fast as hell too.
The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
Example: Voidrays and Immortals are simply bad against marines, becasue their damage is weak for their cost against light. But against armoured their damage is good, not insane, but on par with any other high dps unit. Likewise helions do good damage to light units. Not insane, still less than basic T1 infantry, but bad damage against armour.
Conversely units that don't have spilt damage bonus, like marines, do good damage against everything but very high armour targets like BC. They don't have the disadvantage, the same with zerglings and zealots. It's flat value to make them all round good damage units. By comparison the units with spilt damage bonuses are generally at a disadvantage against the type it doesn't have a bonus against.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
It would have been useful if they had added a building armor type but it is probably too late to make that change. The only big problem units are void rays and marauders.
It is pretty silly how fast stimmed marauders can take out buildings. I didn't think too much of it until I saw the GSL stream of PoltPrime against that #1 ladder guy. The protoss made 1 small mistake of stepping out of his base for a few seconds and 6 marauders just run in and snipe a nexus in less than 10 seconds.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. .
yeah !!! marauders are NOT the problem cause they do less dmg against light .... /facepalm
they are a problem. as well as getting 2 medivacs and dropping 2 different spots for 200/200 killing at least 1 hatch with stimmed marauders. a terran WILL get marauders, and a terran WILL get medivacs without having the feeling of "mhh ok im investing in a drop, this should better work :S".
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light.
that makes perfect sense. thanks for enlightening us all.
I guess the hellion's blue flame actually makes the unit worse against non-light units, too.
that's also probably totally how Blizzard came around to the +dmg idea. They designed a couple of units and were like: "wow! there are a lot of overpowered units right now. better only make them overpowered against certain types of armor".
On September 11 2010 18:00 Cade)Flayer wrote: In WC3 buildings have their own special armour type called Fortified, which only siege units are strong against. Defensive Towers however generally start off with only Heavy armour, which is a lot easier for units to kill.
It's a good system which SC2 should copy.
Yeah, that might work but only for building armor.
The rest of the armor system in WC3 was way too complicated. I'm pretty sure I played more WC3 than SC2 so far and I still don't know which of the 5ish damage types is good/bad vs which of the 5ish armor type or even what units have the former or the latter >_>
On September 11 2010 18:00 Cade)Flayer wrote: In WC3 buildings have their own special armour type called Fortified, which only siege units are strong against. Defensive Towers however generally start off with only Heavy armour, which is a lot easier for units to kill.
It's a good system which SC2 should copy.
Yeah, that might work but only for building armor.
The rest of the armor system in WC3 was way too complicated. I'm pretty sure I played more WC3 than SC2 so far and I still don't know which of the 5ish damage types is good/bad vs which of the 5ish armor type or even what units have the former or the latter >_>
I actually found the armor system in WC3 very clean cut and easy to understand. Catapult throws heavy rock on unit with no armor, of course it does bonus damage. Throws rock at something which weighs twice as much as the rock itself (bear), doesn't do bonus damage.
Magic penetrates heavy armor, piercing weapons are good against light armor etc.
Very easy to understand imo.
On the other hand there's no recognizable logic behind the +dmg system in SC2. It really looks like the designers were just trying to have an easy time balancing things by simply adding specific values to specific units against specific types of armors. There also seems to be mostly no logic behind the armor types. For example, why is hydra light even though probably weighing twice as much as a marine and being twice as big (which is obviously the reason it moves slower than my grandma off creep)? They almost look like ultralisks just with a thinner body, so why aren't they armored instead of light? Or at least normal and not light.
Warcraft 3's armor system was great once TFT was released. I do think it took a little bit "too" much effort to kill buildings, but honestly that's just how everything was in Warcraft 3. It was really surprising to see how easily buildings get taken down in Starcraft 2 comparatively. Even compared to Starcraft 1, buildings are easily destroyed. I do think in general I'd prefer to see buildings with a "Structure" armor type and be somewhat harder to take down, although I do think the biggest general issue is with Marauders specifically and not with any of the other +DamageToArmored units.
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
what kind of retarded vision is this? too bad marauder also quite wtfpwn everything with stim what isnt armored..., as lings, zeals, hydras
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
Example: Voidrays and Immortals are simply bad against marines, becasue their damage is weak for their cost against light. But against armoured their damage is good, not insane, but on par with any other high dps unit. Likewise helions do good damage to light units. Not insane, still less than basic T1 infantry, but bad damage against armour.
Conversely units that don't have spilt damage bonus, like marines, do good damage against everything but very high armour targets like BC. They don't have the disadvantage, the same with zerglings and zealots. It's flat value to make them all round good damage units. By comparison the units with spilt damage bonuses are generally at a disadvantage against the type it doesn't have a bonus against.
Okay, I guess I could kinda buy this. It doesn't change the fact that the damage can be too much. For example, what if Marauders dealt 40 damage plus 160 to armored? It doesn't matter that they deal only 20% to light, they're still dealing way too much damage.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
And here's where your little train of thought derails. There is no other unit besides possibly the Baneling or Immortal (relatively niche units compared to the Marauder) that deals so much damage to buildings as our dear super Marine. If we raise the health of all buildings to compensate, up to a reasonable point where Marauders can't imbasnipe everything, then no units besides the Marauder (and possibly the Baneling and Immortal) are going to be able to kill structures at a reasonable rate. Muta Pylon snipes? Yeah right. Early Zealot pressure? A thing of the past. Ling runbys and Nydus attacks? Get real. Breaking the game's square holes to fit the one triangular peg is not the way to make things work.
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
Example: Voidrays and Immortals are simply bad against marines, becasue their damage is weak for their cost against light. But against armoured their damage is good, not insane, but on par with any other high dps unit. Likewise helions do good damage to light units. Not insane, still less than basic T1 infantry, but bad damage against armour.
Conversely units that don't have spilt damage bonus, like marines, do good damage against everything but very high armour targets like BC. They don't have the disadvantage, the same with zerglings and zealots. It's flat value to make them all round good damage units. By comparison the units with spilt damage bonuses are generally at a disadvantage against the type it doesn't have a bonus against.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
Yes we could all look at a glass half empty and say it was really half full, but in Sc2 land Marauders actually do 20+ damaged to armor.
Does this not mean that it does more damage to Armor? I am confused now.
And btw Marauders with Stim have the same DPS as a Marine with Stim sooo....
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
so im sorry if this has been said before but didnt wanna wade through 11 pages of text but
would be nice if building had their own type of armor as opposde to armored... so units taht do +damage to armored wouldnt be able to bring them donw (i.e. 4 stimmed marauders bringing down expos sooo quick) it raelly can end a game ..
cool idea from OP talking about reapers having a viability vs buildings .... change building type and then reaper damage
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
Example: Voidrays and Immortals are simply bad against marines, becasue their damage is weak for their cost against light. But against armoured their damage is good, not insane, but on par with any other high dps unit. Likewise helions do good damage to light units. Not insane, still less than basic T1 infantry, but bad damage against armour.
Conversely units that don't have spilt damage bonus, like marines, do good damage against everything but very high armour targets like BC. They don't have the disadvantage, the same with zerglings and zealots. It's flat value to make them all round good damage units. By comparison the units with spilt damage bonuses are generally at a disadvantage against the type it doesn't have a bonus against.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
The problem is not just +10 damage vs armored.
Marauder+stim+medivac - that's the problem. And in usual situation terran has all of it.
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light.
I just wanted to quote this with more bold text! This guy is a genious and most people are stupid.
Terrans building snipes are seriously ridiculous. There are times you just can't defend it and it is frustrating as hell losing a key tech building or nexus on a marauder drop
this game is a good example of marauder building rape
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light.
I just wanted to quote this with more bold text! This guy is a genious and most people are stupid.
So Marauders were meant to deal 30 damage? It's just nice of Blizzard to nerf them so they do 10 damage against non-armored?
I mean the guy is saying that Marauders should basically only be used against Armored units, that its' their only use, because they have split damage and that it let's them be cost effective. But the problem here is that they're sniping buildings too fast.
So please, I really don't understand. Please enlighten me. Please.
Just take Armoured off of Nexus's and hatcheries. CC's can fly away, so keep it on them. Maybe. I dunno. But take it off nexuses and Hatches and voila. Done. Marauders take twice as long to rape them (good thing marines exist I guess!?)
I think his point is that, for cost, marauders do less damage to light then, say, marines. I think he is possible comparing them to the Dragoons, which did 20 dmg to tanks, 15 to vults and marines. It's not doing extra damage to tanks, ti's doing less damage to marines and vults.
Still sounds stupid like that. Just make the base buildings not armoured and marauders cannot 3 second rape them. Or keep it and just deal with it. I dunno.
it just occurred to me, the reason drops are so good is T always has Very good AA with MMM as rines are such good air defenders, SO nerf rine AA attack, so T is forced to deviate from MMM to get vikings
Do we really need to play the rock-paper-scissors game? Every build has a counter. Why would it be different for void rays?
Except I have to prepare for everything because I have no way to know what you're doing before I have an observer, and even then any good terran will see it and scan snipe it. If I make an observer before a void ray I'll get rolled for having a shitty army since I spent 350/250 on tech structures. If I blindly go for a void ray I'll lose every game the terran goes for a cloaked banshee as he'll be able to make a viking to kill off my void ray while his banshee kills my economy. I have managed to get a forge/cannons up a couple times, but then I've got a useless tech structure and a bunch of minerals wasted on cannons...
I generally FE vs toss, so no, I can't just "make a viking." And if I do an infantry push, why couldn't you just forcefield your ramp while massing and messing with my economy with your void ray? This is stupid. I can't do everything all at once.
That means I'd counter expand while teching up to charge/High Templar. If I try to push you I might delay your expo, but I'm not gonna do enough damage to win and then you win 2 bases to 1. I can't afford 5 sentries to forcefield my ramp and void rays to harass. There just isn't enough gas that early for such things. If I make the sentries fast so they have enough energy for multiple forcefields I won't be able to get the stargate/void ray up. Eventually you're gonna get up my ramp and when you do I insta-lose if "half my army" is in your base harassing. Void Rays kill buildings fast, but not as fast as a stimmed infantry ball. Base racing versus an infantry ball is a loss unless you have a ton of void rays.
[quote]I never said you have to "get every tech structure." Not once. Where did I say that?[quote]
While you never said such a thing, I take it as implied...I need a robo bay so I don't insta-lose to a cloaked banshee and so I can figure out what you're up to. If I go for a void ray on top of that I've got a bunch of tech structures...Banshee harass seems to be less popular now in favor of infantry pushes (mainly the EMP push) so maybe I can opt to skip an ob in hopes of finally winning a game versus Terran.
On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote: Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.
Yes, but they are very fragile units. In this respect they served a specialized role: making your opponent want to rip his hair out.
Imagine if Mutalisks had a 30 damage attack to buildings, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
Imagine if Reapers flew and had 90 health, everyone would be up in arms about that bullshit.
....
Anyway you people are kind of missing the point imo. It isn't a damage issue, its a mobility issue. Everything in Starcraft 2 got so much more mobile. Except for bases. :/.
You people are just blaming marauder because there the most common manifestation of a bigger problem. Marauders are fine, go show me a single high level player complaining about rauders.
You know what I think? Well, in SC1, units were just as effective against buildings, but due to clumsy pathing and large radius sizes, and 12 limit unit select, it was far harder to effectively snipe anything.
Now, its just an incredibly streamlined process. Get your medics along with yo healers, and drop a few very easy to micro units somewhere and hope for the best. If not, ohwell, the pressure was worth it.
How do we fix this? Well, I don't know, but silly contrived damage changes won't do anything.
Are you serious or just trolling us?
The Marauder was called IMBA by almost very top-player and still is since day1 of the Beta!...
Heh, "since day1" you say? It goes a lot earlier than even that.
Although I'm not a top player, I've been complaining about Marauders long before day 1 of beta. Hell, I've been bitching about Marauders since Battle Report 1 when I saw how a high HP, easy to get unit was able to demolish buildings and own both Zealots and Stalkers alike despite Protoss being the "strong units" race. It's seriously starting to piss me off how these guys are still in their current state despite the obvious balance problems that were apparent years ago.
I definitely agree with the idea of lowering their bonus damage to buildings. Every other building killer either has a very high cost or high risk in order to snipe buildings. Marauders however are cheap, require no commitment, and are always the core part of a terran army. There are still some problems with how SC2 buildings are too weak overall (except for PF), but Marauders are the #1 problem regarding that.
Its not THAT bad that you instalose to Cloaked Banshees if you go Stargate. If he went for a Banshee you can attack it in the open sky (with a Phoenix after the Void Ray) and force it to cloak before it even reaches your base, minimizing the damage dealt. I think a Robo Fac is already the next sensible option after the Stargate because you can get air control with Phoenixes to repel Vikings, and use them as meatshields to protect Collossi from them if you go that tech route.
I'm seeing some high level Protoss even opening with a Phoenix on large maps for rapid scouting information
If you go Phoenix JUST for scouting you have spent too much, why get a Stargate & a Phoenix just to scout, why not just good ol' Observer that is better at the job.
If you were going air units anyway then its fine, but it does give your opponent early warning to make anti-air.
If you're not going air then why build the Stargate in the first place?
On September 12 2010 01:35 JudoChopper wrote: If you go Phoenix JUST for scouting you have spent too much, why get a Stargate & a Phoenix just to scout, why not just good ol' Observer that is better at the job.
If you were going air units anyway then its fine, but it does give your opponent early warning to make anti-air.
If you're not going air then why build the Stargate in the first place?
On a large map a Phoenix gets you your "Okay, where do I start spending my gas?" answer VERY quickly compared to an Observer. By the time and Observer gets there they'll have whatever timing-push worthy unit they're making ready to roll, or even an expansion fully set up and rolling and you're miles behind. I'm thinking cross-positions on a map like Metalopolis. Its purely situational. You wouldn't do it back-to-back on Lost Temple.
You don't usually open Void Rays to win the game right there (although it can happen). Forcing someone to make lots of static defense, more Queens and have to mass things like Vikings, and Mutalisks before they can safely leave their base is a good thing.
An important part of the Protoss early game is buying yourself enough time and/or map control to get expansions, Collossi or HTs. Works like that in pretty much every matchup. Void Rays (except in PvP where they kinda suck*) give you the opportunity to do exactly that.
* unless you read the Blizzard forums where noobs complain about getting blind-sided by 7 of the things all day long.
On September 12 2010 00:13 Acritter wrote: Okay, I guess I could kinda buy this. It doesn't change the fact that the damage can be too much. For example, what if Marauders dealt 40 damage plus 160 to armored? It doesn't matter that they deal only 20% to light, they're still dealing way too much damage.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
And here's where your little train of thought derails. There is no other unit besides possibly the Baneling or Immortal (relatively niche units compared to the Marauder) that deals so much damage to buildings as our dear super Marine. If we raise the health of all buildings to compensate, up to a reasonable point where Marauders can't imbasnipe everything, then no units besides the Marauder (and possibly the Baneling and Immortal) are going to be able to kill structures at a reasonable rate. Muta Pylon snipes? Yeah right. Early Zealot pressure? A thing of the past. Ling runbys and Nydus attacks? Get real. Breaking the game's square holes to fit the one triangular peg is not the way to make things work.
No you are flat out wrong, Marauders do not do super damage to buildings, zealots do the same dps as a non stimmed Marauder, marauders have the option to do 50% more damage while having 50% less HP than a zealot.
You see how it works?
100 minerals of Zerglings, which is 4, do 22 dps to a 1 armour building, that is without the 20% upgrade. 1 stimmed Marauder does 19 dps to that same building, and stim only lasts for 15 seconds and does health damage.
OMG MARAUDER DPS IS SO IMBA!! Oh no wait even in ideal circumstances for the marauder it's worse than upgraded zerglings, add in +1 attack and 20% attack speed and zergling dps rockets ahead of marauders. So imba right?
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
Example: Voidrays and Immortals are simply bad against marines, becasue their damage is weak for their cost against light. But against armoured their damage is good, not insane, but on par with any other high dps unit. Likewise helions do good damage to light units. Not insane, still less than basic T1 infantry, but bad damage against armour.
Conversely units that don't have spilt damage bonus, like marines, do good damage against everything but very high armour targets like BC. They don't have the disadvantage, the same with zerglings and zealots. It's flat value to make them all round good damage units. By comparison the units with spilt damage bonuses are generally at a disadvantage against the type it doesn't have a bonus against.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
Yes we could all look at a glass half empty and say it was really half full, but in Sc2 land Marauders actually do 20+ damaged to armor.
Does this not mean that it does more damage to Armor? I am confused now.
And btw Marauders with Stim have the same DPS as a Marine with Stim sooo....
Of course they do more damage to armour. It's a matter of balance and relative damage. It's relative to what other units can also do, a single marine (50 minerals) does the same dps to light units as single marauder (100minerals and 25 gas). A marauder against armour does equal damage to 2 marines, the same mineral and supply cost.
The damage against light is poor for their cost, a single marine does more, a hydra does twice as much more, a stalker does slightly more, they all can hit air marauders can't. The bonus damage gives them almost equal dps to 2 marines,. Without the bonus they do less damage.
Understand?
Any high dps unit can kill buildings just as fast a marauder, marauders are not even the best at it. Zerglings are by far the highest dps as long as the building is big enough to surround. And guess what? The really important buildings like CC/Nexus/Hatch are quite big and have lots of surface area to hit.
I don't know how I can put this any clearer without making a video of just about any high dps unit killing buildings just as fast as marauders.
Killing a CC/nexus/hatch so easily should not be possible by any unit, these buildings at least need a huge HP bonus, making them not classed as armoured would just see marines and/or reapers used for the exact same effect.
On September 12 2010 01:54 Kazang wrote: I don't know how I can put this any clearer without making a video of just about any high dps unit killing buildings just as fast as marauders.
go ahead and do it. you will notice just how much faster marauders actualy are. all the theorycrafting is nice, but the ingame situation proves you wrong.
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light.
I just wanted to quote this with more bold text! This guy is a genious and most people are stupid.
Not really. To do a claim like that he would have to know what does it mean to do "good damage" and "bad damage". People are just sucking up to him, because he put another way of seeing things, but he didn't by any chance show how it is any more valid than marauders doing extra damage to armored and normal to light. Go read his post more carefully and you'll see how he failed to support his argument.
On September 12 2010 00:13 Acritter wrote: Okay, I guess I could kinda buy this. It doesn't change the fact that the damage can be too much. For example, what if Marauders dealt 40 damage plus 160 to armored? It doesn't matter that they deal only 20% to light, they're still dealing way too much damage.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
And here's where your little train of thought derails. There is no other unit besides possibly the Baneling or Immortal (relatively niche units compared to the Marauder) that deals so much damage to buildings as our dear super Marine. If we raise the health of all buildings to compensate, up to a reasonable point where Marauders can't imbasnipe everything, then no units besides the Marauder (and possibly the Baneling and Immortal) are going to be able to kill structures at a reasonable rate. Muta Pylon snipes? Yeah right. Early Zealot pressure? A thing of the past. Ling runbys and Nydus attacks? Get real. Breaking the game's square holes to fit the one triangular peg is not the way to make things work.
No you are flat out wrong, Marauders do not do super damage to buildings, zealots do the same dps as a non stimmed Marauder, marauders have the option to do 50% more damage while having 50% less HP than a zealot.
You see how it works?
100 minerals of Zerglings, which is 4, do 22 dps to a 1 armour building, that is without the 20% upgrade. 1 stimmed Marauder does 19 dps to that same building, and stim only lasts for 15 seconds and does health damage.
OMG MARAUDER DPS IS SO IMBA!! Oh no wait even in ideal circumstances for the marauder it's worse than upgraded zerglings, add in +1 attack and 20% attack speed and zergling dps rockets ahead of marauders. So imba right?
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
Example: Voidrays and Immortals are simply bad against marines, becasue their damage is weak for their cost against light. But against armoured their damage is good, not insane, but on par with any other high dps unit. Likewise helions do good damage to light units. Not insane, still less than basic T1 infantry, but bad damage against armour.
Conversely units that don't have spilt damage bonus, like marines, do good damage against everything but very high armour targets like BC. They don't have the disadvantage, the same with zerglings and zealots. It's flat value to make them all round good damage units. By comparison the units with spilt damage bonuses are generally at a disadvantage against the type it doesn't have a bonus against.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
Yes we could all look at a glass half empty and say it was really half full, but in Sc2 land Marauders actually do 20+ damaged to armor.
Does this not mean that it does more damage to Armor? I am confused now.
And btw Marauders with Stim have the same DPS as a Marine with Stim sooo....
Of course they do more damage to armour. It's a matter of balance and relative damage. It's relative to what other units can also do, a single marine (50 minerals) does the same dps to light units as single marauder (100minerals and 25 gas). A marauder against armour does equal damage to 2 marines, the same mineral and supply cost.
The damage against light is poor for their cost, a single marine does more, a hydra does twice as much more, a stalker does slightly more, they all can hit air marauders can't. The bonus damage gives them almost equal dps to 2 marines,. Without the bonus they do less damage.
Understand?
Any high dps unit can kill buildings just as fast a marauder, marauders are not even the best at it. Zerglings are by far the highest dps as long as the building is big enough to surround. And guess what? The really important buildings like CC/Nexus/Hatch are quite big and have lots of surface area to hit.
I don't know how I can put this any clearer without making a video of just about any high dps unit killing buildings just as fast as marauders.
Killing a CC/nexus/hatch so easily should not be possible by any unit, these buildings at least need a huge HP bonus, making them not classed as armoured would just see marines and/or reapers used for the exact same effect.
You're comparing melee dps to ranged dps. There's a reason why melee units do much more damage. It's not just the sheer damage that makes building sniping with Marauders a problem, it's the ease and speed in which one can do this.
On September 12 2010 01:07 CurLy[] wrote: Terrans building snipes are seriously ridiculous. There are times you just can't defend it and it is frustrating as hell losing a key tech building or nexus on a marauder drop
this game is a good example of marauder building rape
Yep. It's quite funny because even though this game features a lot of Marauder building sniping, HD still cannot manage to catch it all. For example, at about 1:05 mark you see a Terran dropship unload near the 1 o'clock Nexus. At about 1:11 mark you can the Marauders have advanced next to the Nexus. At about 1:18 the Nexus is gone. Meanwhile in the early part of this video Socke is attacking a CC that is flying in to the 5 o'clock position with Stalkers (and Zealots when it lands) for about 15-20 seconds and has it only down to half health before his forces there are wiped out by the main Terran army that walks over to reinforce.
The problem may not be the marauders. More likely it's the "1 control group syndrome" of most players. Keeping 1 or 2 stalkers at a drop point can easily deter medivacs from dropping.
Plus, why don't Protoss and Zerg abuse their drop system, which by all means are not anyway inferior to terrans. Protoss can warp in an endless amount of units as long as there is pylon or warp prism power and there's plenty of gateways. Zerg can use nydus worms to unload UNLIMITED number of a units. Oh and overlords too! Someone mentioned that Medivacs and Marauders are no risk drops since they are staple units, but what about overlords? Zergs need overlords as well, so I don't see any difference in there.
"Terran can drop in multiple spots at the same time"
So can you, the Protoss and Zerg. Make 2 warprism or 2 proxy pylons, or make 2 nydus worms and use overlords at the same time. The key is SPLITTING up your units. Or if terran is doing a multiple pronged attack, you can engage the main army knowing that he is now at least 4-8 maruaders and 1-2 medivacs lesser in strength. If the terran can split his forces in 2, 3 or 4, so can you.
Immortal: (50-1) / 1.45 = 33.8 DPS to buildings = 8.45DPS per supply Zealot: (8-1) * 2 / 1.2 = 11.6 DPS to buildings = 5.83 DPS per supply Stalker = (14-1) / 1.44 = 9.03 DPS to buildings = 4.52 DPS per supply
Marauder: (20-1) / 1.5 = 12.667 DPS to buildings = 6.33 DPS per supply Stimmed Marauder: (20-1) / 1 = 19 DPS to buildings = 9.5 DPS per supply Marine: (6-1) / 0.8608 = 5.8 DPS to buildings = 5.8 DPS per supply Stimmed Marine: (6-1) / 0.574 = 8.71 DPS per supply
I did it by supply to distinguish how much raw DPS you can fit into a transport that can only carry 8 supply.
Do Terran drops need to be that strong, that early in a game? An Immortal is a dedicated building buster (its crap at everything else, after all) and yet
A) it still does less damage per drop-slot in a drop fashion B) requires 55s a pop, out of the same building constructing the dropping unit at 50s, taking forever to construct the drop C) an OC or CC can just Lift-Off...
I don't think its too much to ask for a cheap upgrade to the Medivac (raising it from carrying 4 supply to 8) to delay that kind of damage potential being thrown at your Nexus. Its a powerful tool and really cool, but its one of those things that can get thrown at you WAY too soon.
Any Terran who thinks an Immortal drop is anywhere near as deadly as a 1/1/1 MM drop is in an unbelievable amount of denial.
On September 12 2010 00:13 Acritter wrote: Okay, I guess I could kinda buy this. It doesn't change the fact that the damage can be too much. For example, what if Marauders dealt 40 damage plus 160 to armored? It doesn't matter that they deal only 20% to light, they're still dealing way too much damage.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
And here's where your little train of thought derails. There is no other unit besides possibly the Baneling or Immortal (relatively niche units compared to the Marauder) that deals so much damage to buildings as our dear super Marine. If we raise the health of all buildings to compensate, up to a reasonable point where Marauders can't imbasnipe everything, then no units besides the Marauder (and possibly the Baneling and Immortal) are going to be able to kill structures at a reasonable rate. Muta Pylon snipes? Yeah right. Early Zealot pressure? A thing of the past. Ling runbys and Nydus attacks? Get real. Breaking the game's square holes to fit the one triangular peg is not the way to make things work.
No you are flat out wrong, Marauders do not do super damage to buildings, zealots do the same dps as a non stimmed Marauder, marauders have the option to do 50% more damage while having 50% less HP than a zealot.
You see how it works?
100 minerals of Zerglings, which is 4, do 22 dps to a 1 armour building, that is without the 20% upgrade. 1 stimmed Marauder does 19 dps to that same building, and stim only lasts for 15 seconds and does health damage.
OMG MARAUDER DPS IS SO IMBA!! Oh no wait even in ideal circumstances for the marauder it's worse than upgraded zerglings, add in +1 attack and 20% attack speed and zergling dps rockets ahead of marauders. So imba right?
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
Example: Voidrays and Immortals are simply bad against marines, becasue their damage is weak for their cost against light. But against armoured their damage is good, not insane, but on par with any other high dps unit. Likewise helions do good damage to light units. Not insane, still less than basic T1 infantry, but bad damage against armour.
Conversely units that don't have spilt damage bonus, like marines, do good damage against everything but very high armour targets like BC. They don't have the disadvantage, the same with zerglings and zealots. It's flat value to make them all round good damage units. By comparison the units with spilt damage bonuses are generally at a disadvantage against the type it doesn't have a bonus against.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
Yes we could all look at a glass half empty and say it was really half full, but in Sc2 land Marauders actually do 20+ damaged to armor.
Does this not mean that it does more damage to Armor? I am confused now.
And btw Marauders with Stim have the same DPS as a Marine with Stim sooo....
Of course they do more damage to armour. It's a matter of balance and relative damage. It's relative to what other units can also do, a single marine (50 minerals) does the same dps to light units as single marauder (100minerals and 25 gas). A marauder against armour does equal damage to 2 marines, the same mineral and supply cost.
The damage against light is poor for their cost, a single marine does more, a hydra does twice as much more, a stalker does slightly more, they all can hit air marauders can't. The bonus damage gives them almost equal dps to 2 marines,. Without the bonus they do less damage.
Understand?
Any high dps unit can kill buildings just as fast a marauder, marauders are not even the best at it. Zerglings are by far the highest dps as long as the building is big enough to surround. And guess what? The really important buildings like CC/Nexus/Hatch are quite big and have lots of surface area to hit.
I don't know how I can put this any clearer without making a video of just about any high dps unit killing buildings just as fast as marauders.
Killing a CC/nexus/hatch so easily should not be possible by any unit, these buildings at least need a huge HP bonus, making them not classed as armoured would just see marines and/or reapers used for the exact same effect.
I understand completely, I understand how to compare DPS, and other statistics.
The thing is, if you were to have Zerglings or Zealots in positions where you're trying to snipe Buildings, they must commit to either Warp Prisms, Nydys Worms, or Overlord Speed and Drop.
Now for the Marauder ( Which I believe is the sole reason that Buildings being Armored is even being discussed) being dropped, you'd already have Medivacs at hand, which means you don't have to commit anything special to snipe buildings.
You say Zerglings and Zealots can have the same DPS if they surround, the problem is getting to that surround. We must always consider that Marauders are ranged and so benefit from a considerable amount of mobility. Let's also put into account that the Marauder has double the amount of HP as a Zergling, it's quite a hassle to deal with a Medivac that also heals it for 13.5hp/s. Let's also apply the fact that units have to be dropped off 1 by 1, we can clearly see that 4 units is a lot faster to drop then 8 ( in the case of lings.)
What I'm trying to say is we can compare numbers all we want but the problem is that in-game Marauder drops are obnoxious as fuck. You have very little time to react to what is going on. Things like Zerglings drops you can easily just pull your workers off the line to at least buy time to bring in back up, Marauders can simply tank the damage and continue to snipe thanks to the Medivac or just proceed to kite the crap out of your units.
Now I do like the point you make on saying how Building in general might have too little HP, which is probably true especially when applying the fact that the overall DPS in Sc2 has been greatly increased. But if you just crunch numbers, it doesn't prove shit. Sc2 is a game, there are too many things to consider before just crunching up numbers and coming to a conclusion.
On September 12 2010 00:13 Acritter wrote: Okay, I guess I could kinda buy this. It doesn't change the fact that the damage can be too much. For example, what if Marauders dealt 40 damage plus 160 to armored? It doesn't matter that they deal only 20% to light, they're still dealing way too much damage.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
And here's where your little train of thought derails. There is no other unit besides possibly the Baneling or Immortal (relatively niche units compared to the Marauder) that deals so much damage to buildings as our dear super Marine. If we raise the health of all buildings to compensate, up to a reasonable point where Marauders can't imbasnipe everything, then no units besides the Marauder (and possibly the Baneling and Immortal) are going to be able to kill structures at a reasonable rate. Muta Pylon snipes? Yeah right. Early Zealot pressure? A thing of the past. Ling runbys and Nydus attacks? Get real. Breaking the game's square holes to fit the one triangular peg is not the way to make things work.
No you are flat out wrong, Marauders do not do super damage to buildings, zealots do the same dps as a non stimmed Marauder, marauders have the option to do 50% more damage while having 50% less HP than a zealot.
You see how it works?
100 minerals of Zerglings, which is 4, do 22 dps to a 1 armour building, that is without the 20% upgrade. 1 stimmed Marauder does 19 dps to that same building, and stim only lasts for 15 seconds and does health damage.
OMG MARAUDER DPS IS SO IMBA!! Oh no wait even in ideal circumstances for the marauder it's worse than upgraded zerglings, add in +1 attack and 20% attack speed and zergling dps rockets ahead of marauders. So imba right?
On September 12 2010 00:40 RoarMan wrote:
On September 11 2010 22:12 Kazang wrote: The stupidity of some people really amazes me. Marauders are not the problem. The whole bonus damage thing is being totally misunderstood.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
Example: Voidrays and Immortals are simply bad against marines, becasue their damage is weak for their cost against light. But against armoured their damage is good, not insane, but on par with any other high dps unit. Likewise helions do good damage to light units. Not insane, still less than basic T1 infantry, but bad damage against armour.
Conversely units that don't have spilt damage bonus, like marines, do good damage against everything but very high armour targets like BC. They don't have the disadvantage, the same with zerglings and zealots. It's flat value to make them all round good damage units. By comparison the units with spilt damage bonuses are generally at a disadvantage against the type it doesn't have a bonus against.
The problem is buildings HP and the ease with which they die, no particular unit is to blame for this as they all do damage proportionate with their value.
Yes we could all look at a glass half empty and say it was really half full, but in Sc2 land Marauders actually do 20+ damaged to armor.
Does this not mean that it does more damage to Armor? I am confused now.
And btw Marauders with Stim have the same DPS as a Marine with Stim sooo....
Of course they do more damage to armour. It's a matter of balance and relative damage. It's relative to what other units can also do, a single marine (50 minerals) does the same dps to light units as single marauder (100minerals and 25 gas). A marauder against armour does equal damage to 2 marines, the same mineral and supply cost.
The damage against light is poor for their cost, a single marine does more, a hydra does twice as much more, a stalker does slightly more, they all can hit air marauders can't. The bonus damage gives them almost equal dps to 2 marines,. Without the bonus they do less damage.
Understand?
Any high dps unit can kill buildings just as fast a marauder, marauders are not even the best at it. Zerglings are by far the highest dps as long as the building is big enough to surround. And guess what? The really important buildings like CC/Nexus/Hatch are quite big and have lots of surface area to hit.
I don't know how I can put this any clearer without making a video of just about any high dps unit killing buildings just as fast as marauders.
Killing a CC/nexus/hatch so easily should not be possible by any unit, these buildings at least need a huge HP bonus, making them not classed as armoured would just see marines and/or reapers used for the exact same effect.
I understand completely, I understand how to compare DPS, and other statistics.
The thing is, if you were to have Zerglings or Zealots in positions where you're trying to snipe Buildings, they must commit to either Warp Prisms, Nydys Worms, or Overlord Speed and Drop.
Now for the Marauder ( Which I believe is the sole reason that Buildings being Armored is even being discussed) being dropped, you'd already have Medivacs at hand, which means you don't have to commit anything special to snipe buildings.
You say Zerglings and Zealots can have the same DPS if they surround, the problem is getting to that surround. We must always consider that Marauders are ranged and so benefit from a considerable amount of mobility. Let's also put into account that the Marauder has double the amount of HP as a Zergling, it's quite a hassle to deal with a Medivac that also heals it for 13.5hp/s. Let's also apply the fact that units have to be dropped off 1 by 1, we can clearly see that 4 units is a lot faster to drop then 8 ( in the case of lings.)
What I'm trying to say is we can compare numbers all we want but the problem is that in-game Marauder drops are obnoxious as fuck. You have very little time to react to what is going on. Things like Zerglings drops you can easily just pull your workers off the line to at least buy time to bring in back up, Marauders can simply tank the damage and continue to snipe thanks to the Medivac or just proceed to kite the crap out of your units.
Now I do like the point you make on saying how Building in general might have too little HP, which is probably true especially when applying the fact that the overall DPS in Sc2 has been greatly increased. But if you just crunch numbers, it doesn't prove shit. Sc2 is a game, there are too many things to consider before just crunching up numbers and coming to a conclusion.
Even if you compare purely by math, zergling DPS only edges out marauders by a very small margin when compared cost for cost. Marauders are still going to kill buildings at a similar rate to lings, and it's much easier to pull off a drop as terran than it is for zerg.
EDIT: I also love how that previous poster says "stim only lasts for 15 seconds" like it's a bad thing. Even with no attack upgrades, 8 stim Marauders can snipe a Nexus before stim runs out.
It's not the Armored part of a building that is the problem. It's the ease, strength, and often safety of a Marauder Drop that can tear apart buildings faster then even our top players in IEM, MLG, and GSL can react.
The combination of Medivacs being so prevelant in any mid to late game Terran army vs. any non Terran (Vikings are the only things that seem to deter them from being massed) and Marauder damage to Ground Armored Targets while stimmed is what is causing the troubles. It's not a simple problem to solve without overdoing the nerf. Whether it's tinkering with Medivacs, Marauders, or Zerg/Protoss Static/Mobile Anti-Air as the solution I strongly feel that something needs to be done. One or two dropships with Marauders at multiple locations is exceptionally damaging to any buildings.
As an aside, one or two Stalkers defending against a dropship of Marauders is pretty much suicide for the Marauders assuming the Terran player can hit Unload within any reasonable amount of time. In fact, defending from 8 Marauders takes a sizable ground army if you wish to avoid any severe losses.
On September 12 2010 01:07 CurLy[] wrote: Terrans building snipes are seriously ridiculous. There are times you just can't defend it and it is frustrating as hell losing a key tech building or nexus on a marauder drop
this game is a good example of marauder building rape
Yep. It's quite funny because even though this game features a lot of Marauder building sniping, HD still cannot manage to catch it all. For example, at about 1:05 mark you see a Terran dropship unload near the 1 o'clock Nexus. At about 1:11 mark you can the Marauders have advanced next to the Nexus. At about 1:18 the Nexus is gone. Meanwhile in the early part of this video Socke is attacking a CC that is flying in to the 5 o'clock position with Stalkers (and Zealots when it lands) for about 15-20 seconds and has it only down to half health before his forces there are wiped out by the main Terran army that walks over to reinforce.
The irony is Socke won. Warp-Gate tech allowed him to respond to each drop and despite BratOK's best efforts to drop like an absolute madman, and Socke lost lots of Nexususus, he wasn't able to overcome the destructive power of Psi Storm + Khaydarin amulet coming out of nowhere.
I don't think there's any problem with Terrans doing these kinds of drops in the late-game. It makes for a really entertaining game to watch. Its how QUICKLY the Terran can start using such a deadly weapon in a match.
cost, supply, dps, color of hair analysis doesn`t matter at all.
its pure facts.
the marauder is by far the fastest "standard" unit except of the immortal (both 15 seconds).
1 medivac with 4 marauders + stim snipes a hatch in 15 seconds.
1 overlord with 4 roaches "snipes" a hatch in 33 seconds. (we`ll ignore lifted CCs ...)
1 warp prism with 4 stalkers "snipes" a hatch in 27 seconds. (without warping in units)
1 warp prism with 4 stalkers snipes a hatch in 18 seconds. (warping in 4 additional stalkers)
4 hydras = 21 seconds
2 immortals = 15 seconds
and now imagine defending against this.
killing 4 marauders behind mineral line with medivac support in time. killing 4 roaches in front of nexus "in time" (afk toilet). killing 4 stalkers behind mineral line in time.
and now defending against 2 dropships ...........................
On September 12 2010 03:03 Bibdy wrote: The irony is Socke won. Warp-Gate tech allowed him to respond to each drop and despite BratOK's best efforts to drop like an absolute madman, and Socke lost lots of Nexususus, he wasn't able to overcome the destructive power of Psi Storm + Khaydarin amulet coming out of nowhere.
Socke won because he had 3 times the Mineral and 4 times the Gas income and was trowing money at the problem. BratOK also used a lot of Marines for droping, to witch Socke responded by getting the shield upgrade.. +3 shields do wonders against marines.
Just a normal terran whine thread. I thought it was something else. Back to spamming TL with terran whine ? How is marauders a problem but not a few charged VRs? VRs are better. They can defend themselves against air and also fight while flying. While 8 stimmed marauders and 2 medivacs (6 sec CC/nexus/hatchery destruction) will probably be lost to stalkers/hydralisks or VRs/mutalisks even if they manage to take down the buildings.
Command Center Upgrade [Req starport]: 150/150 - Allow medivacs to carry units This allows folks not to have have to build a tech lab for medivacs
Marauders: Receive 50% run speed bonus of stim and 75% of attack speed bonus of stim. or Marauders: 10+10 armored -> 8+10 armored or Marauders: Concussive shell slow reduced by 30% or on a short cooldown
Seem like a reasonable starting point? Drastic changes should be avoided imo.
The Marauder was called IMBA by almost very top-player and still is since day1 of the Beta!...
Find me a single quote that is recent as of this patch (last beta patch/retail). Stop talking out of your ass kthx.
Seriously, did you read my post at all?
- Units had less range, so attacking Sunken Colonies was much harder with Marines than it is now with Marauders.
What? Marine six range (with versus marauder six range
- There were no Units dealing double DMG or even more against Buildings, or is there a Unit in SC:BW that can snipe Buildings as effective as Reapers or Stimmed-Marauders? Cracklings, which came out on T3 were considered "building annihilators" and they are a joke compared to how fast stimmed marauders take down buildings.
Yes there were lolwut? Any unit that deals "explosive" damage dealt double damage against buildings.
Units like stimmed marines kill buildings only slightly slower then marauders do.
- There were no Units that could hop cliffs and stuff, so static defense in front of your base actually meant that the opposing players had to penetrate this barrier before he could wreak havoc in your base. Thanks to reapers, this isn't the case anymore.
Once a gain, a mobility issue. Did you even read my post?
- Air-Units that weren't Tier3 had a very short air-to-ground range, so Turrets/Spore Crawlers and Cannons actually could protect your base very well. If you want to defend against Voidrays or banshees with Anti-Air Static defense, you need much more to protect your whole base. Just compare the aior-to-ground range of Wraiths, Scouts and Mutas from SC:BW with Banshees and Voidrays in SC2 - Much bigger range, except the Mutas in SC2. Now compare the range of Anti-Air structures - same range as in SC:BW - there has to be sth. wrong here!
Once again, thats exactly what I fucking said, a mobility issue.
Static defense is worth nothing in SC2 and sniping buildings is far too easy.
Primarily due to mobility. Why are you just parroting my argument back to me as if it were a retort?
Nothing until T2 should do additional DMG to buildings
Seriously your post doesn't make any sense at all. You listed five issues which I agree with that include an overall increase in unit mobility, then argue that the solution is to nerf unit damage?
I think you could remove the armor damage form marauders altogether and boost their base damage to 15... getting pretty sick of all the +damage going around in sc2.. this isn't supposed to be wc4 >.<
...lol. Sc1 had bonus damage too. Its the same fucking thing. Dragoons were 10+10 versus armroed. +5 versus medium.
Not really. To do a claim like that he would have to know what does it mean to do "good damage" and "bad damage". People are just sucking up to him, because he put another way of seeing things, but he didn't by any chance show how it is any more valid than marauders doing extra damage to armored and normal to light. Go read his post more carefully and you'll see how he failed to support his argument.
Because it doesn't require validation. Perhaps the amount values do, but the general concept of units being statistically stronger against some units then others is a concept very intrinsic to the way Starcraft 2 works.
Maybe you could argue Marauders do too much damage against buildings, thats fine, but the idea of bonus damage doesn't need to be justified.
On September 12 2010 05:03 Half wrote: The Marauder was called IMBA by almost very top-player and still is since day1 of the Beta!...
On September 12 2010 05:03 Half wrote: Find me a single quote that is recent as of this patch (last beta patch/retail). Stop talking out of your ass kthx.
I wouldn't mind seeing some fiddling with the numbers. For the most part, it doesn't seem like much thought was put into it unless if they really intended Marauders to be building demolishers.
today 12 stimmed rauders killed my nexus before my army can go from my natural to the nexus. Luckily i slaughered the next drop with 5 medivacs and managed to win a game i shouldn't have... The fact that can happen is a joke imo.
Marauders don't do extra damage against armour, they do less damage against light. The spilt damage is a disadvantage, if there were no +damage bonuses they would simply do 20per shot regardless of armour type, which is still less dps than 2 marines. Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
They do 10 damage against light and 20 against armored. What is the difference between:
10 damage (+ 10 against armored) 20 damage (- 10 against light and psionic)
NOTHING. And justifiying a unit is not too powerful by comparing it to the marine makes absolutely no sense. Marines have less range, less armor, and are much worse against storm.
Spilt damage bonuses make units worse against a different type, not better against another.
No they do not, because it would only be worse IN COMPARISON to a maruader than deals 20 damage to everything. And maruader that do 20 damage to everything do not fucking exist. So the modifiers do not "make a unit better or worse", they just define how much damage it does to w/e.
On September 12 2010 01:07 CurLy[] wrote: Terrans building snipes are seriously ridiculous. There are times you just can't defend it and it is frustrating as hell losing a key tech building or nexus on a marauder drop
this game is a good example of marauder building rape
Yep. It's quite funny because even though this game features a lot of Marauder building sniping, HD still cannot manage to catch it all. For example, at about 1:05 mark you see a Terran dropship unload near the 1 o'clock Nexus. At about 1:11 mark you can the Marauders have advanced next to the Nexus. At about 1:18 the Nexus is gone. Meanwhile in the early part of this video Socke is attacking a CC that is flying in to the 5 o'clock position with Stalkers (and Zealots when it lands) for about 15-20 seconds and has it only down to half health before his forces there are wiped out by the main Terran army that walks over to reinforce.
The irony is Socke won. Warp-Gate tech allowed him to respond to each drop and despite BratOK's best efforts to drop like an absolute madman, and Socke lost lots of Nexususus, he wasn't able to overcome the destructive power of Psi Storm + Khaydarin amulet coming out of nowhere.
I don't think there's any problem with Terrans doing these kinds of drops in the late-game. It makes for a really entertaining game to watch. Its how QUICKLY the Terran can start using such a deadly weapon in a match.
It comes down to: Is maruader building kill speed giving terran an edge they shouldn't have?
The whole reason this thread has been made is because of Marauders, they're ruining the game. Fix the damn unit. Anyone that's anyone who tries to pass off Marauders as anything but op for the their insane dps and dominance in relation to cost are either T players who want them to remain on broken or players who like to boast about their gosu skill set.
As said by many, I don't have a problem with specialized units doing +dmg to buildings such as banelings, reapers.. but it's pretty stupid stimmed marauders wtfpwn all buildings so quick
On September 12 2010 05:03 Half wrote: Find me a single quote that is recent as of this patch (last beta patch/retail). Stop talking out of your ass kthx.
I suggested that the drop ability of medivacs needs to be researched , because drop right now kills Protoss in the beginning but isn't needed against Zerg in the very beginning, so it wouldn't change a lot.
The diversity of TvT would suffer a bit speaking of openings, but if you guys want to change the marauder (change in the way of a nerf) you better bring up some suggestions how to balance TvP, because its not like Terrans go Marauder + Medivac + Ghost (nearly only) because we want to abuse "imbalance" but there's simply no other stuff we can use.
Protoss with Warpgates and also Zerg with Nydus or drops are way more mobile than alternatives to Marauders which leads to Terrans playing BIO. Besides that, I think a Protoss that gets untouched to mid or even lategame will crush a Terran. You need to be so good with EMP / spotting HT / the army of Protoss while he will probably have the map split and Pylons + Cannon / Instant Warpin HT on the Xel-Naga towers which especially on LT or Xel Naga leads to massive pain in the ass for terran .. we have to rely on drops because we can't really attack without suffering massive AoE.
Also HTs can feedback + storm when you leave them at an expo (kind of like PvZ broodwar where you left 3-5 cannons and 1-2 HTs at your expansion).. Protoss has sooo much potential mid and lategame with great AoE but right now not many players make use of it.
Terrans like BRAT_OK and DemusliM really push Terran to the maximum and abuse the early game advantage over the other races but fact is that Terran has barely any alternatives to Marauders in Mid/Late because the alternatives are way more fragile or way less mobile. Thats my opinion and you may or may not agree, but thats pretty much the opinion of lots of players I've talked to, including lots of pros.
On September 12 2010 08:42 G.s)NarutO wrote: I suggested that the drop ability of medivacs needs to be researched , because drop right now kills Protoss in the beginning but isn't needed against Zerg in the very beginning, so it wouldn't change a lot.
The diversity of TvT would suffer a bit speaking of openings, but if you guys want to change the marauder (change in the way of a nerf) you better bring up some suggestions how to balance TvP, because its not like Terrans go Marauder + Medivac + Ghost (nearly only) because we want to abuse "imbalance" but there's simply no other stuff we can use.
Protoss with Warpgates and also Zerg with Nydus or drops are way more mobile than alternatives to Marauders which leads to Terrans playing BIO. Besides that, I think a Protoss that gets untouched to mid or even lategame will crush a Terran. You need to be so good with EMP / spotting HT / the army of Protoss while he will probably have the map split and Pylons + Cannon / Instant Warpin HT on the Xel-Naga towers which especially on LT or Xel Naga leads to massive pain in the ass for terran .. we have to rely on drops because we can't really attack without suffering massive AoE.
Also HTs can feedback + storm when you leave them at an expo (kind of like PvZ broodwar where you left 3-5 cannons and 1-2 HTs at your expansion).. Protoss has sooo much potential mid and lategame with great AoE but right now not many players make use of it.
Terrans like BRAT_OK and DemusliM really push Terran to the maximum and abuse the early game advantage over the other races but fact is that Terran has barely any alternatives to Marauders in Mid/Late because the alternatives are way more fragile or way less mobile. Thats my opinion and you may or may not agree, but thats pretty much the opinion of lots of players I've talked to, including lots of pros.
I agree but instead of researching drop maybe Medivacs start with half the carrying capacity and you need to research and upgrade to double the capacity to what it currently is. Additionally this upgrade would be on the tech lab of the starport.
I'm a terran player and I agree that marauders smiping buildings that quickly and just being in general as strong as they currently are is BS. EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP this unit is seen massed. i'd like to see either an HP nerf or losing their ability to stim. losing either would lessen the sheer amount of MMM in every matchup and hatchery/nexus sniping (CCs are normally lifted). seriously the goals should always be about getting the workers not the nexus/hatchery. if possible by all means kill the building like in BW marines killed hatcheries pretty darn fast but not near as fast as the way marauders snipe nexus'. marauders and void rays should both be nerfed next patch because honestly charged void rays do WAY too much damage to buildings and any general unit except hydras.
On September 12 2010 08:42 G.s)NarutO wrote: I suggested that the drop ability of medivacs needs to be researched , because drop right now kills Protoss in the beginning but isn't needed against Zerg in the very beginning, so it wouldn't change a lot.
The diversity of TvT would suffer a bit speaking of openings, but if you guys want to change the marauder (change in the way of a nerf) you better bring up some suggestions how to balance TvP, because its not like Terrans go Marauder + Medivac + Ghost (nearly only) because we want to abuse "imbalance" but there's simply no other stuff we can use.
Protoss with Warpgates and also Zerg with Nydus or drops are way more mobile than alternatives to Marauders which leads to Terrans playing BIO. Besides that, I think a Protoss that gets untouched to mid or even lategame will crush a Terran. You need to be so good with EMP / spotting HT / the army of Protoss while he will probably have the map split and Pylons + Cannon / Instant Warpin HT on the Xel-Naga towers which especially on LT or Xel Naga leads to massive pain in the ass for terran .. we have to rely on drops because we can't really attack without suffering massive AoE.
Also HTs can feedback + storm when you leave them at an expo (kind of like PvZ broodwar where you left 3-5 cannons and 1-2 HTs at your expansion).. Protoss has sooo much potential mid and lategame with great AoE but right now not many players make use of it.
Terrans like BRAT_OK and DemusliM really push Terran to the maximum and abuse the early game advantage over the other races but fact is that Terran has barely any alternatives to Marauders in Mid/Late because the alternatives are way more fragile or way less mobile. Thats my opinion and you may or may not agree, but thats pretty much the opinion of lots of players I've talked to, including lots of pros.
As much as I dont like suggesting radical balance changes, medivac drop (or heal) as a research makes a lot of sense. As Raelcun pointed out in another thread, dropships were 100/100 in BW so in SC2 they essentially got given heal "for free". Honestly, the only thing "wrong" with Terran as far as I can see is the Medivac, it allows a bit too much power for the Terran to go abusing. These suggestions should fix that imo.
On September 12 2010 08:34 Half wrote: I hope you can figure the rest out sir.
Clearly I don't troll these forums enough to distinguish the fanboys :D
just searched TLO and that S/N popped up first ;p
Dude its common sense. Surely you've seen any other member of teamliquid post. Notice how they all have special icons and a Liquid' tag? Even if you didn't don't you think members of Teamliquid would have special status on the Teamliquid forum?
On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote: Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game.
Because when my roaches hit the field and I force his reapers back into his base, I'm going to push his front, break it down, and win. If he made that many reapers, he is in the same situation as a Muta/Ling player, harassing harcore and living in fear of his opponent realizing they can 1a to his base and win.
If he made 10 reapers, I'll have enough time to have made a metric shit-ton of roaches and speedlings. Once I pop the door, if I can't win outright in that push, I'm definitely going to hurt his army, his production capability, and his econ incredibly. As long as I don't overcommit to chasing reapers away I can snipe techlabs and supply depots with my army forcing him to pull workers. From there it gets ugly. Granted, it doesn't work out that way 100% of the time, but most often when faced with reapers, my timing push is coming before he has that many. Generally it comes when he has about 3-4 reapers, which against 5-6 roaches and some speedlings, is going to fold.
That said, I'd like to say that getting back on topic, even 6 or 7 reapers don't kill a Nexus/CC/Hatch as quickly as 4 stimmed marauders do. Think about that; of two same-tier terran units, the one dedicated to destroying buildings does it less effectively than the one not made to kill buildings. Very telling.
thinking about this earlier and i completely agree why the hell should supply depots for example be armored? it doesn't make sense in terms of gameplay or lore
On September 12 2010 10:44 Nightfall.589 wrote: It takes, what, 12 seconds real-time for 4 stimmed +1 marauders to kill a SC2 hatchery?
Has anyone noticed that it takes 11 seconds real-time for 10 stimmed +1 marines to kill a BW hatchery?
Oddly enough, stim marine drops in BW are not considered overpowered.
In BW, drop ships were a considerable investment that didn't heal units while they were idle. In SC2, building medivacs is still strong even if you never intend to drop with them.
In BW, a Dark Swarm or two lurkers, or a handful of lings handled that drop pretty well. A combination of those three options was probably optimal.
In BW, Scourge kept air control pretty handily in Zerg's favour without having to dedicate absurd amounts of gas to the issue.
In BW, a 10 stimmed marine +1 drop was a considerably larger investment than a 4 stimmed marauder drop is in SC2. Also, it came much much later than you can start dropping 4 marauders.
On September 12 2010 10:44 Nightfall.589 wrote: It takes, what, 12 seconds real-time for 4 stimmed +1 marauders to kill a SC2 hatchery?
Has anyone noticed that it takes 11 seconds real-time for 10 stimmed +1 marines to kill a BW hatchery?
Oddly enough, stim marine drops in BW are not considered overpowered.
8 Marines takes twice as long to drop as 4 marauders. 2 dropships are needed for less potent of a drop b/c medics take space Dropships didn't heal in BW Medics and maybe a firebat were needed for the drop to be viable Marines don't have 6 range, 1 armor and a snare. Marines can't take out static defense nearly as easy and required skill to kill lurkers. Marines aren't good versus as many unit types as marauders are.
6 range in SC2 = 5 range in BW. Ranges are different. Marines don't cost gas. Marines don't require tech labs. Zerg don't get movement speed bonus on creep in BW. Marauders don't do too hot against lings. BW infantry upgrades are pretty critical.
The only relevant point here is that there were no Medevacs in BW... But that's not what zerg are having problems with.
Let's not forget that in SC2, 2 +1 marines have the same DPS against a building as a +1 marauder. Suppose you do make buildings lose their armory type... Marines will still kill your expansions just as quick.
On September 12 2010 10:44 Nightfall.589 wrote: It takes, what, 12 seconds real-time for 4 stimmed +1 marauders to kill a SC2 hatchery?
Has anyone noticed that it takes 11 seconds real-time for 10 stimmed +1 marines to kill a BW hatchery?
Oddly enough, stim marine drops in BW are not considered overpowered.
On September 12 2010 10:55 hizBALLIN wrote: In BW, drop ships were a considerable investment that didn't heal units while they were idle. In SC2, building medivacs is still strong even if you never intend to drop with them.
In BW, a Dark Swarm or two lurkers, or a handful of lings handled that drop pretty well. A combination of those three options was probably optimal.
In BW, Scourge kept air control pretty handily in Zerg's favour without having to dedicate absurd amounts of gas to the issue.
In BW, a 10 stimmed marine +1 drop was a considerably larger investment than a 4 stimmed marauder drop is in SC2. Also, it came much much later than you can start dropping 4 marauders.
What hizBALLIN said. In bw Zerg had the tools to defend this kinda stuff but none of these things exist in sc2.
I think the IDEA was that buildings would be weaker, and units that hit tanks harder should likely hit buildings harder too. Perhaps a spinecrawler WOULDN'T be armored, in lore, or perhaps a turret could be light, maybe. But from a balancing, and lore perspective it just makes sense. From a gamplay perspective, it makes drops, a slightly risky gambit, more worth it, and it makes bacraces more interesting.
On September 12 2010 12:05 Nightfall.589 wrote: 6 range in SC2 = 5 range in BW. Ranges are different. Marines don't cost gas. Marines don't require tech labs. Zerg don't get movement speed bonus on creep in BW. Marauders don't do too hot against lings. BW infantry upgrades are pretty critical.
The only relevant point here is that there were no Medevacs in BW... But that's not what zerg are having problems with.
Let's not forget that in SC2, 2 +1 marines have the same DPS against a building as a +1 marauder. Suppose you do make buildings lose their armory type... Marines will still kill your expansions just as quick.
If you consider that Medevacs don't exist in BW relevant, then you definitely seem to miss the very relevant point that Marauders didn't exist in BW either. You comparison of the situation to BW only convolutes the issue, very unnecessarily. The cheap nature of scourge compared to the expensive nature of dropships, the fact that scourge and spire tech (not to mention, in a pinch, Hydras with speed, seeing as they're T1.5 in BW) in general was available BEFORE dropships were feasibly useable make drops less practical. Tech is much slower for Zerg in SC2, and your air superiority units are very gas intensive.
Further more, arguing things like how critical upgrades are (either in BW or SC2) really don't belong in a discussion about how quickly four marauders can kill a resource collection building faster than even progamers can react, this discussion. They're irrelevant. Marauders don't have to do well against lings, because you can quite simply drop them, focus the hatch, and reduce your opponent's economy incredibly for a very small investment. If lings show up, you can either lift off your marauders before the lings can chew through their relatively high health, or just leave them to kill the hatch and be ahead. Even that point is irrelevant. 4 dropped Marauders kill buildings far better than any options other races have for the resource cost/commitment to tech/time investment. Would you honestly disagree? If not, then how does BW fit into this discussion?
On September 12 2010 12:11 R0YAL wrote: What hizBALLIN said. In bw Zerg had the tools to defend this kinda stuff but none of these things exist in sc2.
The problem with this scenario is if buildings are given a special armor class how will you make that class special? Currently, all units have a type of unit/armor classification. So, I don't think Blizzard wants to all of a sudden implement a "normal" armor type or something without bonuses depending on the situation. So, will "Structure" armor automatically reduce damage by so much %? If thats the case, let's say structure armor reduces by 10-20% or something. Even this change alone, would make turtling/massing bunkers, cannons, sunken, spore, and pf much more viable and annoying.
What if the medivac needed an upgrade to be able to carry non-light units? This way they can still carry marines, hellions, reapers and SCvs early on, but you'll need a techlab on a starport if you want to be able to drop tanks, marauders or thors.
Maybe make this an engine upgrade, leave them a bit slower without the upgrade and the current speed with the upgrade.
On September 12 2010 13:14 brocoli wrote: What if the medivac needed an upgrade to be able to carry non-light units? This way they can still carry marines, hellions, reapers and SCvs early on, but you'll need a techlab on a starport if you want to be able to drop tanks, marauders or thors.
Maybe make this an engine upgrade, leave them a bit slower without the upgrade and the current speed with the upgrade.
this seems way too convoluted, and doesn't really make much sense just in terms of logic.
why would a medivac be able to carry a tank and a maruader, but not a marine? seems silly.
i think medivac heal/drop needs a research requirement. simple, fair, balanced. its been said above but im just throwing in my +1
On September 12 2010 13:14 brocoli wrote: What if the medivac needed an upgrade to be able to carry non-light units? This way they can still carry marines, hellions, reapers and SCvs early on, but you'll need a techlab on a starport if you want to be able to drop tanks, marauders or thors.
Maybe make this an engine upgrade, leave them a bit slower without the upgrade and the current speed with the upgrade.
this seems way too convoluted, and doesn't really make much sense just in terms of logic.
why would a medivac be able to carry a tank and a maruader, but not a marine? seems silly.
i think medivac heal/drop needs a research requirement. simple, fair, balanced. its been said above but im just throwing in my +1
The issue with such a thing would be the weakening of the already less than ideal bio. The way the game is looking, bio, or a bio based play is the only thing viable, and it's super weak to splash damage. Adding an upgrade like that seems to only weaken it more. It seems like Blizzard is pushing for bio focused plays with the tank nerf, so it seems illogical to nerf them.
I thought my suggestion in another thread wasn't bad. Cut the medivac's max capacity in half (2marauders or 4 marines) then add a 150/150 upgrade to double it.
On September 12 2010 13:34 kNyTTyM wrote: I thought my suggestion in another thread wasn't bad. Cut the medivac's max capacity in half (2marauders or 4 marines) then add a 150/150 upgrade to double it.
Consequently I said suggested that on pg. 13 I agree with this idea.
On September 12 2010 08:42 G.s)NarutO wrote: I suggested that the drop ability of medivacs needs to be researched , because drop right now kills Protoss in the beginning but isn't needed against Zerg in the very beginning, so it wouldn't change a lot.
The diversity of TvT would suffer a bit speaking of openings, but if you guys want to change the marauder (change in the way of a nerf) you better bring up some suggestions how to balance TvP, because its not like Terrans go Marauder + Medivac + Ghost (nearly only) because we want to abuse "imbalance" but there's simply no other stuff we can use.
Protoss with Warpgates and also Zerg with Nydus or drops are way more mobile than alternatives to Marauders which leads to Terrans playing BIO. Besides that, I think a Protoss that gets untouched to mid or even lategame will crush a Terran. You need to be so good with EMP / spotting HT / the army of Protoss while he will probably have the map split and Pylons + Cannon / Instant Warpin HT on the Xel-Naga towers which especially on LT or Xel Naga leads to massive pain in the ass for terran .. we have to rely on drops because we can't really attack without suffering massive AoE.
Also HTs can feedback + storm when you leave them at an expo (kind of like PvZ broodwar where you left 3-5 cannons and 1-2 HTs at your expansion).. Protoss has sooo much potential mid and lategame with great AoE but right now not many players make use of it.
Terrans like BRAT_OK and DemusliM really push Terran to the maximum and abuse the early game advantage over the other races but fact is that Terran has barely any alternatives to Marauders in Mid/Late because the alternatives are way more fragile or way less mobile. Thats my opinion and you may or may not agree, but thats pretty much the opinion of lots of players I've talked to, including lots of pros.
There are a number of ways that Marauders can be made more managable without reducing them to rubble. These are just samples:
1) Increase cost, time or tech requirments of the Concussive Shells upgrade. Tier 1 (techlab) 50/50 60s is absurd for such an insane ability. Zealot Legs are 200/200 140s and Stalker Blink is 150/150 110s, both of which require a tier 2 structure - Twilight Council. 2) Increase the hitpoints taken when stimmed 3) Cooldown timer for Concussive Shells. Again, referencing Zealots and Stalkers, both their abilities require a 10s cooldown. 4) Increase in supply, similar to the Roach nerf during Beta. 5) Decrease movement or attack speed. etc, etc, etc.
Carefully tweaking them to level the playing field isn't hard, it just takes someone who gives a damn.
I also agree with your Medivac suggestion, it's a subtle change that would help to even out T.
1) Marauders are T1,5 which means they are higher in tech compared to Zealots and a Marauder does in fact lose against a Zealot without concussive shells. Also a stalker can get away when a Marauder does not have concussive shells. 2) Marauders already get -20HP when they stim - this should be completely fine 3) A cooldown for concussive shells (how much do you have in mind) would probably really harsh nerf, because thats CS is what actually keeps terran alive pretty much I think. 4) ...? So you want to make Marauders 3 supply.. I mean... really? 5) I also think its fine
I serioulsy don't think there's anything wrong with the Marauder in battles, because in mid or lategame its actually not superior to a Protoss army with LOOOTS of AoE damage. Terran just needs the marauder because as I described earlier we really LACK alternatives which are also mobile OR not super fragile. If you can offer such an alternative you might change the marauder - but not earlier than that.
So as you can see, its a bit trickier especially because Zerg kind of has no Problem at all against Bio / Marauders and Terran basically needs to rely on Mech against good Zergs..
the main thing I'd like about this change would be giving Reavers more of a purpose in the mid and late game. Right now, Marauders are just as good at base-wrecking as Reavers are, and a helluva lot easier to incorporate into an army. If Reavers were the undisputed "base wreckers" of Terran bio, they'd serve more of a purpose even after the timeframe for their early harassment had passed.
On September 12 2010 12:05 Nightfall.589 wrote: 6 range in SC2 = 5 range in BW. Ranges are different. Marines don't cost gas. Marines don't require tech labs. Zerg don't get movement speed bonus on creep in BW. Marauders don't do too hot against lings. BW infantry upgrades are pretty critical.
The only relevant point here is that there were no Medevacs in BW... But that's not what zerg are having problems with.
Let's not forget that in SC2, 2 +1 marines have the same DPS against a building as a +1 marauder. Suppose you do make buildings lose their armory type... Marines will still kill your expansions just as quick.
Its much easier to kill marines before they kill your nexus. DPS doesn't matter as long as you can shut it down quickly.
Only building I have a problem with having the Armored tag is Spore Crawlers... Void Rays make those things useless.
TBH though I'm actually a bit more angry that Command Center, Barracks, Factory and Starport aren't massive. Corruptor definitely deserves +dmg vs those things
On September 12 2010 13:45 G.s)NarutO wrote: I will point out what I think of your suggestions
1) Marauders are T1,5 which means they are higher in tech compared to Zealots and a Marauder does in fact lose against a Zealot without concussive shells. Also a stalker can get away when a Marauder does not have concussive shells. 2) Marauders already get -20HP when they stim - this should be completely fine 3) A cooldown for concussive shells (how much do you have in mind) would probably really harsh nerf, because thats CS is what actually keeps terran alive pretty much I think. 4) ...? So you want to make Marauders 3 supply.. I mean... really? 5) I also think its fine
I serioulsy don't think there's anything wrong with the Marauder in battles, because in mid or lategame its actually not superior to a Protoss army with LOOOTS of AoE damage. Terran just needs the marauder because as I described earlier we really LACK alternatives which are also mobile OR not super fragile. If you can offer such an alternative you might change the marauder - but not earlier than that.
So as you can see, its a bit trickier especially because Zerg kind of has no Problem at all against Bio / Marauders and Terran basically needs to rely on Mech against good Zergs..
Are you joking?
You don't want marauders to be nerfed because in your opinion, with CS they have no counters? Does that seem to make even the most remote amount of sense? Does that seem balanced at all? Terrans have plenty of options to "keep them alive." I player massing marauders should be punished by having units that easily counter it (for their lack of variety) but they don't because no unit truly counters the marauder except more marauders. They're cheap and easy to mass, which would indicate a balance issue to a rational person.
That said, the issue isn't about concussive shell here, because it's about how quickly they kill buildings.
And I already explained the points about killing buildings. Marauders are easily massed which is true, but its because Terran lacks other options. If you can show me how to successfully beat Protoss without Marauders please go ahead.
If you can't counter it - its your fault. Terran vs Protoss right now is fine besides the early game, which gets really hard for Protoss since Marauder / the ability for Terran to drop early can shut down pretty much anything Protoss can do, but in lategame Storm+Chargelots or even Colossi.. / Voidray Zealot or anything like that do perfectly fine against Marauders.
Roaches are 75/25 and no one cries about them. Also Marauders lose 20HP due to stimpack which makes them 105HP. CS keeps away chargelots and we usually already have to stim multiple times.. so any PvT I recently saw which went to lategame where the Protoss wasn't completely screwed early on was either really even or won by the Protoss. I as Terran myself would really love more diversity, but its simply that other unit combinations are much more fragile or immobile.
Chargelots + Storm really doesn't do shitty against marauders and you can mix in Colossi, Stalker/Sentry or whatever you like since you are saying "massing marauders" you are speaking of 6+ barracks which leads to me thinking you are speaking of a mid or early late game WHICH! would mean any good Protoss is on 3 or more base.. leading to him having more than a few HT + Zealots.
Check out Socke.. he's playing well against Terran also defending drops really well with feedback + Storm or warping in a few Zealots. Obviously the damage output of Marauders is insanely high when you leave them unharmed, but if you for example warp in 2 zealots you get:
1) time to save your building 2) he probably won't kill the building without any casualties
Even if he kills a techbuilding and saves 1 Marauder, he still lost 300/75 in the process, not saying its disadvantageous for Terran, but its not like you drop 4 marauders and always get away with it losing nothing.
Terran just needs the marauder because as I described earlier we really LACK alternatives which are also mobile OR not super fragile. If you can offer such an alternative you might change the marauder - but not earlier than that.
And that's where I disagree with you. Having to choose between mobile-but-fragile and immobile-and-strong is what defines the Terrans. Giving the Terrans the ability to have both in one unit is the problem.
I as Terran myself would really love more diversity, but its simply that other unit combinations are much more fragile or immobile.
That's the point. Terran strategy is built around Marauders because it is their best unit. It has all strengths and no weaknesses. Because of that, it is not a good unit.
Terrans as a race could probably function just fine without Marauders. Obviously certain avenues of attack and tech patterns would be off limits. But if it makes for a better game overall... why not?
I'm not saying Marauders need to go. Any one of the following solutions could make them reasonable:
1: Remove Stim.
2: Reduce their HP to 75.
3: Reduce their damage to something like 7+7 or 6+6.
4: Make Stim cost them 50 Hp.
Why?
Well, what is the Marauder supposed to do? It's supposed to be a low-tier tanking unit that can also serve as an anti-armored attacker.
Removing stim still allows it to be this. Yes, the Marauder will be out-DoT'd by the Marine, even against the Marauder's preferred targets. But they'll still contribute to a battle with their concussive shells, which helps either slow down incoming attackers or keep escaping units from escaping the ball. And they'll still contribute their tanking abilities.
A lower Hp Marauder can still tank. Why? Because they still have more Hp than a Marine, but they don't take up the space of two Marines. And their concussive shells has a negative effect on the enemy, one that Marines are well-suited to exploiting. In short, the Marauder does not need to use their Hp to effectively tank.
Lower damage is obvious. They can still stim effectively for free, but their damage output is lowered. This makes Marines more cost-effective, but the tanking abilities of Marauders makes them vital in MMM balls. They would still be important, but you wouldn't build as many. The Marines would clearly be the damage dealers, with the Marauders simply helping out by being meatshields and slowers.
The increased stim cost still allows Marauders to be useful. But it makes stim actually cost something. -20 Hp for stim, on a unit with 125 Hp is basically free. It's not even 1/6th of their total Hp. Marines need an upgrade to get even that close. This way, when you stim with Marauders, it hurts. You're saying, "I don't want this unit to tank anymore; I want it to deal damage now." It's like Siege Mode. You go from Tank to Mobile Attacker. It's still versatile, but it can't be both Tank and Mobile Attacker at the same time like it can now.
On August 14 2010 04:13 Ndugu wrote: This is a more nuanced issue than it sounds like.
For example, I agree that buildings go down too fast under certain circumstances-- stimmed marauders being the best example. It is just ridiculous sometimes.
In fact, I think most of the time people bring this up, they're talking about Marauders. Zerg units, beyond Ultras, which are meant to, don't deal bonus to armored and therefore down wtfpwn buildings. Banelings do, but that is by design and has limitations.
As for Protoss units, only immortals really do that well against buildings. However, they are very limited by range, speed, etc. Getting two immortals in a warp prism and doing an immortal drop, imho, doesn't need a nerf. Its a cool strategy that is barely worth doing for the risk.
The more I think about this issue, the only problem I or anyone has is with how quickly stimmed marauders wtfpwn your buildings. I would be all right if a Terran massed reapers, and did a surprise drop to wtfpwn my buildings. But massing your generic, good, well-rounded ground unit for a greater effect? Too much reward with Zero risk.
Roaches are insane at taking down buildings for their cost.
All races have these units - marauders, immortals and roaches.
Immortals are expensive and slow, roaches have less range and no stim.
Yep and you can only fit 2 immortals in a slower warp prism which doesn't heal the immortal either. The Marauder is simply ridiculous - 2 stims and it just absoloutely and utterly ruins a base fast. I realise this isn't Warcraft 3 we're talking here but I've been saying since the beta - buildings go down too fast in this game as is, let alone with marauders in it.
On September 12 2010 02:33 Bibdy wrote: Immortal: (50-1) / 1.45 = 33.8 DPS to buildings = 8.45DPS per supply Zealot: (8-1) * 2 / 1.2 = 11.6 DPS to buildings = 5.83 DPS per supply Stalker = (14-1) / 1.44 = 9.03 DPS to buildings = 4.52 DPS per supply
Marauder: (20-1) / 1.5 = 12.667 DPS to buildings = 6.33 DPS per supply Stimmed Marauder: (20-1) / 1 = 19 DPS to buildings = 9.5 DPS per supply Marine: (6-1) / 0.8608 = 5.8 DPS to buildings = 5.8 DPS per supply Stimmed Marine: (6-1) / 0.574 = 8.71 DPS per supply
I did it by supply to distinguish how much raw DPS you can fit into a transport that can only carry 8 supply.
Do Terran drops need to be that strong, that early in a game? An Immortal is a dedicated building buster (its crap at everything else, after all) and yet
A) it still does less damage per drop-slot in a drop fashion B) requires 55s a pop, out of the same building constructing the dropping unit at 50s, taking forever to construct the drop C) an OC or CC can just Lift-Off...
I don't think its too much to ask for a cheap upgrade to the Medivac (raising it from carrying 4 supply to 8) to delay that kind of damage potential being thrown at your Nexus. Its a powerful tool and really cool, but its one of those things that can get thrown at you WAY too soon.
Any Terran who thinks an Immortal drop is anywhere near as deadly as a 1/1/1 MM drop is in an unbelievable amount of denial.
Thank you for providing the precise figures. Based on the position in the tech tree, I'm going to have to completely agree with you.
NicolBolas , your suggestions are terrible and only a person without any knowledge of the game would suggest Marauders with 75HP, -50HP for stim or likes of it. I'm sorry but if you cannot see, that the Marauder NEEDS to be as strong as it is to give Terran ANY chance to win games - you're being ignorant and not more than one of the other crybabies.
You want a 75 Marauder? Or -50HP for stim, so chargezealot + Storm or Colossi basically just rip through it without any chance for Terran? If you use tanks, which are 3 supply and ridiculously expensive and also getting nerfed you can't really fight the really mobile and diverse armies of Protoss or Zerg.
Its not Broodwar and its not the "immobile but strong" Terran. Tanks are still strong yes, but due to the damage output in Starcraft 2 they also die in seconds getting caught offguard. And now please don't tell me "then you have to be more careful about them" because thats not how it would worse, since Protoss just has WAY more ways to be really mobile or put pressure on you and makes you force to move.. obviously you can still play lots of Tanks and they are strong for defence, but setting up offence or even fighting (not even talking about that you always have to go to lategame for it) off the kinds of voidrays is nearly impossible.
The marauder is meant to be a strong anti-armor (not unarmored) combat fighter that gives Terran the power to keep up. Uusually that unit would be the tank, but the marauder is nearly better in any way. Its more mobile, needs less effort to be used, is cheaper and costs less supply. If you nerf tanks, please make the costs 150/100, because Terran needs insane amounts of gas to play such a tankstyle.
Stimmed Marauders A lot of people are tossing out numbers and figures for comparison, but I thought it might be helpful to have a short little video showing both Stalkers and Marauders dealing damage to a CC/Nex.
Test 1: 6 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 2: 12 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 stimmed Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 3 (more like a demonstration): 6 stimmed Marauders dropped near a templar archives, gunning for the building only while there are 6 Stalkers beside it
I don't know for sure what should be done about the Marauder if anything, but I figured it would be easier to understand if people just saw it, I dunno.
You want a 75 Marauder? Or -50HP for stim, so chargezealot + Storm or Colossi basically just rip through it without any chance for Terran?
I don't understand how having stim cost 50Hp has an effect on "chargezealot + Storm or Colossi." Marauders are supposed to be tank units, right? The whole point of making stim costly is that it turns the Marauder into a damage dealer, at the cost of no longer being a tank. If you use stim vs. Chargelots + Storm, you are stupid and deserve to lose. Your Marauders should be there primarily to stand between the Zealots and Marines. The Marines get the stim, not the Marauders.
As for Colossi, well I guess you'll have to change your tech pattern. Maybe use a few Vikings instead of relying on Marauders to kill Colossi. In fact, don't Vikings have a ground form, where they can do more damage over time than Marauders?
This is nothing a competent Terran player cannot adjust to compensate for.
On September 12 2010 21:10 kyarisan wrote: Stimmed Marauders A lot of people are tossing out numbers and figures for comparison, but I thought it might be helpful to have a short little video showing both Stalkers and Marauders dealing damage to a CC/Nex.
Test 1: 6 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 2: 12 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 stimmed Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 3 (more like a demonstration): 6 stimmed Marauders dropped near a templar archives, gunning for the building only while there are 6 Stalkers beside it
I don't know for sure what should be done about the Marauder if anything, but I figured it would be easier to understand if people just saw it, I dunno.
That's insane - 6 stalkers and still the archives go down so fast :/ weak.
You want a 75 Marauder? Or -50HP for stim, so chargezealot + Storm or Colossi basically just rip through it without any chance for Terran?
I don't understand how having stim cost 50Hp has an effect on "chargezealot + Storm or Colossi." Marauders are supposed to be tank units, right? The whole point of making stim costly is that it turns the Marauder into a damage dealer, at the cost of no longer being a tank. If you use stim vs. Chargelots + Storm, you are stupid and deserve to lose. Your Marauders should be there primarily to stand between the Zealots and Marines. The Marines get the stim, not the Marauders.
As for Colossi, well I guess you'll have to change your tech pattern. Maybe use a few Vikings instead of relying on Marauders to kill Colossi. In fact, don't Vikings have a ground form, where they can do more damage over time than Marauders?
This is nothing a competent Terran player cannot adjust to compensate for.
Check LucifroNNN vs Mana and check how he completely destroyes pure Marauder/Medivac with Zealot+Storm.. even holding off the pushes in the beginning with gateway units only. There's NOTHING wrong with the Marauder - get over it.
The marauder is not a tank if you can't stim / dodge storms.. and if you lose 50HP from stimming, AoE will shred you. I use vikings against Colossi - but guess what - its not as easy as you make it sound as long as Protoss is no complete idiot. Are you telling me I'm not a competent Terran, because I'd beg to differ.
lol, that vid's awesome. you basically have to have a very large part of your army somehow at every expo, or else you'll still get owned by a drop, which leaves you open for counterattacks. i'm experimenting with defensive nydus', but it's still really hard to defend. just taking away stim would probably fix the problem.
3 cannons are sufficient assuming that all 3 cannons can target the 6 marauders.
EDIT: I'd like to also point out that DPS does not factor in how long the units stay alive in combat, and it's much easier for zealots to take out marines in small numbers than marauders in small numbers - 630's HP worth in marauders vs 540 HP worth in marines. if it's army vs army, this becomes more complicated, but if your units are just trying to shoot a building down, marines will die faster than marauders for the same mineral cost.
oh and if you're warping in defense against a drop, the chargelots are insanely more cost efficient, you just lose the ability to shoot down the medivac. in fact 4~6 chargelots and 1~2 templar should be really good, or at least way better than the same cost of stalkers.
They are never going to take stim away from marauders.... but I like the idea of only having base defense as armored. Although it does make immortals pretty retarded against BD
How about just giving buildings more hit points? It sort of goes against all logic to make buildings unarmored. A building is armored by design, ok not heavily armored though but still.
bratok vs sen on LT a few minutes ago on go4sc2 was a great example of the strength of 2 medivacs dropping each 4 marauders at 2 different locations. it`s too freakin easy, simple and effective. this just hurts.
On September 12 2010 21:10 kyarisan wrote: Stimmed Marauders A lot of people are tossing out numbers and figures for comparison, but I thought it might be helpful to have a short little video showing both Stalkers and Marauders dealing damage to a CC/Nex.
Test 1: 6 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 2: 12 Stalkers snipe a CC 6 stimmed Marauders snipe a Nex
Test 3 (more like a demonstration): 6 stimmed Marauders dropped near a templar archives, gunning for the building only while there are 6 Stalkers beside it
I don't know for sure what should be done about the Marauder if anything, but I figured it would be easier to understand if people just saw it, I dunno.
Lol what are you trying to prove with this?
Stalkers are a medium damage unit with high hp, high mobility and the ability to hit air. Compare Zealots, zerglings, immortals or any high dps unit against maraduers. 400 minerals of adrenal gland zerglings kill a nexus, nearly 50% faster than 400/100 of marauders.
Why don't you test how fast those marauders kill a lifted CC compared to the stalkers?
I think the whole armor system should be reworked. Maybe not the system itself but what units benefit from it and which don't. I just think its dumb that basically every armored unit has attack bonus vs armored(maybe im wrong but it seems that way). And yeah, buildings shouldn't go down that fast.
Ok since everyone giving it a shot , let me try this ; ( my first ever , "Let's balance the million dollar game in a week , horraaaay!" attempt , go easy on me )
Don't nerf marauders , or maybe just this little touch ;
1) Make Concussive Shells and Stimpack , mutually exclusive ( means Marauders losing concussive shells while stimmed ).
So that chasing&killing units will require slightly more micro ( Stim half , C.Shell with others ). This is just to balance , micro requirements of stalker/roach/marauders. It's hardly a nerf , you won't even notice the difference if you micro well after all. Also giving Toss/Zerg player a chance to run away if terran players is slacking.
2) Medivac drops requires research and/or medivac slows down when it's loaded.
Make research cheap but takes a little while. Again it's not to nerf drops. If you want drop harass , you can get it easily ( it should be cheap ) ; but you can't just go "Oh i think i'll just snipe his nexus" @ 30min without any investment ( even a little ) and pull it off instantly
Every unit in dropship slows it down a little. ( Like %2 for every unit inside ) Just to add a risk factor in it. If you want to snipe a nexus , you'll have to take a slightly bigger risk now. Also gives good&fast defender an opportunity to defend. ( 2 stalker behind the base or a phoenix patrolling ) Again with good micro and a good drop plan , terran player should be ok.
This thread is utter garbage. Too many people throwing their opinion and not enough reading being done. There are so few people who actually know what they are talking about in this thread that it hurts. Take this discussion to the bnet forums because I'm sick of seeing it around here.
EPT
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