EPTShould Buildings be Armored? - Page 14
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Antpile
United States213 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 12 2010 08:42 G.s)NarutO wrote: As much as I dont like suggesting radical balance changes, medivac drop (or heal) as a research makes a lot of sense. As Raelcun pointed out in another thread, dropships were 100/100 in BW so in SC2 they essentially got given heal "for free". Honestly, the only thing "wrong" with Terran as far as I can see is the Medivac, it allows a bit too much power for the Terran to go abusing. These suggestions should fix that imo.I suggested that the drop ability of medivacs needs to be researched , because drop right now kills Protoss in the beginning but isn't needed against Zerg in the very beginning, so it wouldn't change a lot. The diversity of TvT would suffer a bit speaking of openings, but if you guys want to change the marauder (change in the way of a nerf) you better bring up some suggestions how to balance TvP, because its not like Terrans go Marauder + Medivac + Ghost (nearly only) because we want to abuse "imbalance" but there's simply no other stuff we can use. Protoss with Warpgates and also Zerg with Nydus or drops are way more mobile than alternatives to Marauders which leads to Terrans playing BIO. Besides that, I think a Protoss that gets untouched to mid or even lategame will crush a Terran. You need to be so good with EMP / spotting HT / the army of Protoss while he will probably have the map split and Pylons + Cannon / Instant Warpin HT on the Xel-Naga towers which especially on LT or Xel Naga leads to massive pain in the ass for terran .. we have to rely on drops because we can't really attack without suffering massive AoE. Also HTs can feedback + storm when you leave them at an expo (kind of like PvZ broodwar where you left 3-5 cannons and 1-2 HTs at your expansion).. Protoss has sooo much potential mid and lategame with great AoE but right now not many players make use of it. Terrans like BRAT_OK and DemusliM really push Terran to the maximum and abuse the early game advantage over the other races but fact is that Terran has barely any alternatives to Marauders in Mid/Late because the alternatives are way more fragile or way less mobile. Thats my opinion and you may or may not agree, but thats pretty much the opinion of lots of players I've talked to, including lots of pros. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On September 12 2010 08:57 eth3n wrote: Clearly I don't troll these forums enough to distinguish the fanboys :D just searched TLO and that S/N popped up first ;p Dude its common sense. Surely you've seen any other member of teamliquid post. Notice how they all have special icons and a Liquid' tag? Even if you didn't don't you think members of Teamliquid would have special status on the Teamliquid forum? And TLO name also isn't brian. :/. | ||
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hizBALLIN
United States163 Posts
On September 11 2010 12:28 Cloak wrote: Everyone knows Stimmed Marauders are retarded, but why are Reapers godly at taking out CCs, Hatcheries, and Nexuses too? You leave your base for 10s and you could easily lose your base to one of the fastest units in the game. Because when my roaches hit the field and I force his reapers back into his base, I'm going to push his front, break it down, and win. If he made that many reapers, he is in the same situation as a Muta/Ling player, harassing harcore and living in fear of his opponent realizing they can 1a to his base and win. If he made 10 reapers, I'll have enough time to have made a metric shit-ton of roaches and speedlings. Once I pop the door, if I can't win outright in that push, I'm definitely going to hurt his army, his production capability, and his econ incredibly. As long as I don't overcommit to chasing reapers away I can snipe techlabs and supply depots with my army forcing him to pull workers. From there it gets ugly. Granted, it doesn't work out that way 100% of the time, but most often when faced with reapers, my timing push is coming before he has that many. Generally it comes when he has about 3-4 reapers, which against 5-6 roaches and some speedlings, is going to fold. That said, I'd like to say that getting back on topic, even 6 or 7 reapers don't kill a Nexus/CC/Hatch as quickly as 4 stimmed marauders do. Think about that; of two same-tier terran units, the one dedicated to destroying buildings does it less effectively than the one not made to kill buildings. Very telling. | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
why the hell should supply depots for example be armored? it doesn't make sense in terms of gameplay or lore | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
Has anyone noticed that it takes 11 seconds real-time for 10 stimmed +1 marines to kill a BW hatchery? Oddly enough, stim marine drops in BW are not considered overpowered. | ||
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hizBALLIN
United States163 Posts
On September 12 2010 10:44 Nightfall.589 wrote: It takes, what, 12 seconds real-time for 4 stimmed +1 marauders to kill a SC2 hatchery? Has anyone noticed that it takes 11 seconds real-time for 10 stimmed +1 marines to kill a BW hatchery? Oddly enough, stim marine drops in BW are not considered overpowered. In BW, drop ships were a considerable investment that didn't heal units while they were idle. In SC2, building medivacs is still strong even if you never intend to drop with them. In BW, a Dark Swarm or two lurkers, or a handful of lings handled that drop pretty well. A combination of those three options was probably optimal. In BW, Scourge kept air control pretty handily in Zerg's favour without having to dedicate absurd amounts of gas to the issue. In BW, a 10 stimmed marine +1 drop was a considerably larger investment than a 4 stimmed marauder drop is in SC2. Also, it came much much later than you can start dropping 4 marauders. | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
On September 12 2010 10:44 Nightfall.589 wrote: It takes, what, 12 seconds real-time for 4 stimmed +1 marauders to kill a SC2 hatchery? Has anyone noticed that it takes 11 seconds real-time for 10 stimmed +1 marines to kill a BW hatchery? Oddly enough, stim marine drops in BW are not considered overpowered. 8 Marines takes twice as long to drop as 4 marauders. 2 dropships are needed for less potent of a drop b/c medics take space Dropships didn't heal in BW Medics and maybe a firebat were needed for the drop to be viable Marines don't have 6 range, 1 armor and a snare. Marines can't take out static defense nearly as easy and required skill to kill lurkers. Marines aren't good versus as many unit types as marauders are. | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
Marines don't cost gas. Marines don't require tech labs. Zerg don't get movement speed bonus on creep in BW. Marauders don't do too hot against lings. BW infantry upgrades are pretty critical. The only relevant point here is that there were no Medevacs in BW... But that's not what zerg are having problems with. Let's not forget that in SC2, 2 +1 marines have the same DPS against a building as a +1 marauder. Suppose you do make buildings lose their armory type... Marines will still kill your expansions just as quick. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On September 12 2010 10:44 Nightfall.589 wrote: It takes, what, 12 seconds real-time for 4 stimmed +1 marauders to kill a SC2 hatchery? Has anyone noticed that it takes 11 seconds real-time for 10 stimmed +1 marines to kill a BW hatchery? Oddly enough, stim marine drops in BW are not considered overpowered. On September 12 2010 10:55 hizBALLIN wrote: In BW, drop ships were a considerable investment that didn't heal units while they were idle. In SC2, building medivacs is still strong even if you never intend to drop with them. In BW, a Dark Swarm or two lurkers, or a handful of lings handled that drop pretty well. A combination of those three options was probably optimal. In BW, Scourge kept air control pretty handily in Zerg's favour without having to dedicate absurd amounts of gas to the issue. In BW, a 10 stimmed marine +1 drop was a considerably larger investment than a 4 stimmed marauder drop is in SC2. Also, it came much much later than you can start dropping 4 marauders. What hizBALLIN said. In bw Zerg had the tools to defend this kinda stuff but none of these things exist in sc2. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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hizBALLIN
United States163 Posts
On September 12 2010 12:05 Nightfall.589 wrote: 6 range in SC2 = 5 range in BW. Ranges are different. Marines don't cost gas. Marines don't require tech labs. Zerg don't get movement speed bonus on creep in BW. Marauders don't do too hot against lings. BW infantry upgrades are pretty critical. The only relevant point here is that there were no Medevacs in BW... But that's not what zerg are having problems with. Let's not forget that in SC2, 2 +1 marines have the same DPS against a building as a +1 marauder. Suppose you do make buildings lose their armory type... Marines will still kill your expansions just as quick. If you consider that Medevacs don't exist in BW relevant, then you definitely seem to miss the very relevant point that Marauders didn't exist in BW either. You comparison of the situation to BW only convolutes the issue, very unnecessarily. The cheap nature of scourge compared to the expensive nature of dropships, the fact that scourge and spire tech (not to mention, in a pinch, Hydras with speed, seeing as they're T1.5 in BW) in general was available BEFORE dropships were feasibly useable make drops less practical. Tech is much slower for Zerg in SC2, and your air superiority units are very gas intensive. Further more, arguing things like how critical upgrades are (either in BW or SC2) really don't belong in a discussion about how quickly four marauders can kill a resource collection building faster than even progamers can react, this discussion. They're irrelevant. Marauders don't have to do well against lings, because you can quite simply drop them, focus the hatch, and reduce your opponent's economy incredibly for a very small investment. If lings show up, you can either lift off your marauders before the lings can chew through their relatively high health, or just leave them to kill the hatch and be ahead. Even that point is irrelevant. 4 dropped Marauders kill buildings far better than any options other races have for the resource cost/commitment to tech/time investment. Would you honestly disagree? If not, then how does BW fit into this discussion? + Show Spoiler + On September 12 2010 12:11 R0YAL wrote: What hizBALLIN said. In bw Zerg had the tools to defend this kinda stuff but none of these things exist in sc2. <3 | ||
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bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
Maybe make this an engine upgrade, leave them a bit slower without the upgrade and the current speed with the upgrade. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On September 12 2010 13:14 brocoli wrote: What if the medivac needed an upgrade to be able to carry non-light units? This way they can still carry marines, hellions, reapers and SCvs early on, but you'll need a techlab on a starport if you want to be able to drop tanks, marauders or thors. Maybe make this an engine upgrade, leave them a bit slower without the upgrade and the current speed with the upgrade. this seems way too convoluted, and doesn't really make much sense just in terms of logic. why would a medivac be able to carry a tank and a maruader, but not a marine? seems silly. i think medivac heal/drop needs a research requirement. simple, fair, balanced. its been said above but im just throwing in my +1  | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 12 2010 13:25 Subversion wrote: this seems way too convoluted, and doesn't really make much sense just in terms of logic. why would a medivac be able to carry a tank and a maruader, but not a marine? seems silly. i think medivac heal/drop needs a research requirement. simple, fair, balanced. its been said above but im just throwing in my +1 The issue with such a thing would be the weakening of the already less than ideal bio. The way the game is looking, bio, or a bio based play is the only thing viable, and it's super weak to splash damage. Adding an upgrade like that seems to only weaken it more. It seems like Blizzard is pushing for bio focused plays with the tank nerf, so it seems illogical to nerf them. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
Cut the medivac's max capacity in half (2marauders or 4 marines) then add a 150/150 upgrade to double it. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On September 12 2010 13:34 kNyTTyM wrote: I thought my suggestion in another thread wasn't bad. Cut the medivac's max capacity in half (2marauders or 4 marines) then add a 150/150 upgrade to double it. Consequently I said suggested that on pg. 13 I agree with this idea. | ||
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kariido
Saudi Arabia179 Posts
On September 12 2010 08:42 G.s)NarutO wrote: I suggested that the drop ability of medivacs needs to be researched , because drop right now kills Protoss in the beginning but isn't needed against Zerg in the very beginning, so it wouldn't change a lot. The diversity of TvT would suffer a bit speaking of openings, but if you guys want to change the marauder (change in the way of a nerf) you better bring up some suggestions how to balance TvP, because its not like Terrans go Marauder + Medivac + Ghost (nearly only) because we want to abuse "imbalance" but there's simply no other stuff we can use. Protoss with Warpgates and also Zerg with Nydus or drops are way more mobile than alternatives to Marauders which leads to Terrans playing BIO. Besides that, I think a Protoss that gets untouched to mid or even lategame will crush a Terran. You need to be so good with EMP / spotting HT / the army of Protoss while he will probably have the map split and Pylons + Cannon / Instant Warpin HT on the Xel-Naga towers which especially on LT or Xel Naga leads to massive pain in the ass for terran .. we have to rely on drops because we can't really attack without suffering massive AoE. Also HTs can feedback + storm when you leave them at an expo (kind of like PvZ broodwar where you left 3-5 cannons and 1-2 HTs at your expansion).. Protoss has sooo much potential mid and lategame with great AoE but right now not many players make use of it. Terrans like BRAT_OK and DemusliM really push Terran to the maximum and abuse the early game advantage over the other races but fact is that Terran has barely any alternatives to Marauders in Mid/Late because the alternatives are way more fragile or way less mobile. Thats my opinion and you may or may not agree, but thats pretty much the opinion of lots of players I've talked to, including lots of pros. There are a number of ways that Marauders can be made more managable without reducing them to rubble. These are just samples: 1) Increase cost, time or tech requirments of the Concussive Shells upgrade. Tier 1 (techlab) 50/50 60s is absurd for such an insane ability. Zealot Legs are 200/200 140s and Stalker Blink is 150/150 110s, both of which require a tier 2 structure - Twilight Council. 2) Increase the hitpoints taken when stimmed 3) Cooldown timer for Concussive Shells. Again, referencing Zealots and Stalkers, both their abilities require a 10s cooldown. 4) Increase in supply, similar to the Roach nerf during Beta. 5) Decrease movement or attack speed. etc, etc, etc. Carefully tweaking them to level the playing field isn't hard, it just takes someone who gives a damn. I also agree with your Medivac suggestion, it's a subtle change that would help to even out T. | ||
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