EPTStill sounds stupid like that. Just make the base buildings not armoured and marauders cannot 3 second rape them. Or keep it and just deal with it. I dunno.
Should Buildings be Armored? - Page 12
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Still sounds stupid like that. Just make the base buildings not armoured and marauders cannot 3 second rape them. Or keep it and just deal with it. I dunno. | ||
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funk100
United Kingdom172 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
Do we really need to play the rock-paper-scissors game? Every build has a counter. Why would it be different for void rays? Except I have to prepare for everything because I have no way to know what you're doing before I have an observer, and even then any good terran will see it and scan snipe it. If I make an observer before a void ray I'll get rolled for having a shitty army since I spent 350/250 on tech structures. If I blindly go for a void ray I'll lose every game the terran goes for a cloaked banshee as he'll be able to make a viking to kill off my void ray while his banshee kills my economy. I have managed to get a forge/cannons up a couple times, but then I've got a useless tech structure and a bunch of minerals wasted on cannons... I generally FE vs toss, so no, I can't just "make a viking." And if I do an infantry push, why couldn't you just forcefield your ramp while massing and messing with my economy with your void ray? This is stupid. I can't do everything all at once. That means I'd counter expand while teching up to charge/High Templar. If I try to push you I might delay your expo, but I'm not gonna do enough damage to win and then you win 2 bases to 1. I can't afford 5 sentries to forcefield my ramp and void rays to harass. There just isn't enough gas that early for such things. If I make the sentries fast so they have enough energy for multiple forcefields I won't be able to get the stargate/void ray up. Eventually you're gonna get up my ramp and when you do I insta-lose if "half my army" is in your base harassing. Void Rays kill buildings fast, but not as fast as a stimmed infantry ball. Base racing versus an infantry ball is a loss unless you have a ton of void rays. [quote]I never said you have to "get every tech structure." Not once. Where did I say that?[quote] While you never said such a thing, I take it as implied...I need a robo bay so I don't insta-lose to a cloaked banshee and so I can figure out what you're up to. If I go for a void ray on top of that I've got a bunch of tech structures...Banshee harass seems to be less popular now in favor of infantry pushes (mainly the EMP push) so maybe I can opt to skip an ob in hopes of finally winning a game versus Terran. | ||
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On September 11 2010 18:16 kickinhead wrote: Are you serious or just trolling us? The Marauder was called IMBA by almost very top-player and still is since day1 of the Beta!... Heh, "since day1" you say? It goes a lot earlier than even that. Although I'm not a top player, I've been complaining about Marauders long before day 1 of beta. Hell, I've been bitching about Marauders since Battle Report 1 when I saw how a high HP, easy to get unit was able to demolish buildings and own both Zealots and Stalkers alike despite Protoss being the "strong units" race. It's seriously starting to piss me off how these guys are still in their current state despite the obvious balance problems that were apparent years ago. I definitely agree with the idea of lowering their bonus damage to buildings. Every other building killer either has a very high cost or high risk in order to snipe buildings. Marauders however are cheap, require no commitment, and are always the core part of a terran army. There are still some problems with how SC2 buildings are too weak overall (except for PF), but Marauders are the #1 problem regarding that. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
I'm seeing some high level Protoss even opening with a Phoenix on large maps for rapid scouting information | ||
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alkampfer
116 Posts
On September 12 2010 00:54 fnaticAugury wrote: Drops with stimmed marauders is just ridiculous right now, definitely needs to be fixed. totally agree | ||
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JudoChopper
England148 Posts
If you were going air units anyway then its fine, but it does give your opponent early warning to make anti-air. If you're not going air then why build the Stargate in the first place? | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On September 12 2010 01:35 JudoChopper wrote: If you go Phoenix JUST for scouting you have spent too much, why get a Stargate & a Phoenix just to scout, why not just good ol' Observer that is better at the job. If you were going air units anyway then its fine, but it does give your opponent early warning to make anti-air. If you're not going air then why build the Stargate in the first place? On a large map a Phoenix gets you your "Okay, where do I start spending my gas?" answer VERY quickly compared to an Observer. By the time and Observer gets there they'll have whatever timing-push worthy unit they're making ready to roll, or even an expansion fully set up and rolling and you're miles behind. I'm thinking cross-positions on a map like Metalopolis. Its purely situational. You wouldn't do it back-to-back on Lost Temple. You don't usually open Void Rays to win the game right there (although it can happen). Forcing someone to make lots of static defense, more Queens and have to mass things like Vikings, and Mutalisks before they can safely leave their base is a good thing. An important part of the Protoss early game is buying yourself enough time and/or map control to get expansions, Collossi or HTs. Works like that in pretty much every matchup. Void Rays (except in PvP where they kinda suck*) give you the opportunity to do exactly that. * unless you read the Blizzard forums where noobs complain about getting blind-sided by 7 of the things all day long. | ||
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Kazang
578 Posts
On September 12 2010 00:13 Acritter wrote: Okay, I guess I could kinda buy this. It doesn't change the fact that the damage can be too much. For example, what if Marauders dealt 40 damage plus 160 to armored? It doesn't matter that they deal only 20% to light, they're still dealing way too much damage. And here's where your little train of thought derails. There is no other unit besides possibly the Baneling or Immortal (relatively niche units compared to the Marauder) that deals so much damage to buildings as our dear super Marine. If we raise the health of all buildings to compensate, up to a reasonable point where Marauders can't imbasnipe everything, then no units besides the Marauder (and possibly the Baneling and Immortal) are going to be able to kill structures at a reasonable rate. Muta Pylon snipes? Yeah right. Early Zealot pressure? A thing of the past. Ling runbys and Nydus attacks? Get real. Breaking the game's square holes to fit the one triangular peg is not the way to make things work. No you are flat out wrong, Marauders do not do super damage to buildings, zealots do the same dps as a non stimmed Marauder, marauders have the option to do 50% more damage while having 50% less HP than a zealot. You see how it works? 100 minerals of Zerglings, which is 4, do 22 dps to a 1 armour building, that is without the 20% upgrade. 1 stimmed Marauder does 19 dps to that same building, and stim only lasts for 15 seconds and does health damage. OMG MARAUDER DPS IS SO IMBA!! Oh no wait even in ideal circumstances for the marauder it's worse than upgraded zerglings, add in +1 attack and 20% attack speed and zergling dps rockets ahead of marauders. So imba right? On September 12 2010 00:40 RoarMan wrote: Yes we could all look at a glass half empty and say it was really half full, but in Sc2 land Marauders actually do 20+ damaged to armor. Does this not mean that it does more damage to Armor? I am confused now. And btw Marauders with Stim have the same DPS as a Marine with Stim sooo.... Of course they do more damage to armour. It's a matter of balance and relative damage. It's relative to what other units can also do, a single marine (50 minerals) does the same dps to light units as single marauder (100minerals and 25 gas). A marauder against armour does equal damage to 2 marines, the same mineral and supply cost. The damage against light is poor for their cost, a single marine does more, a hydra does twice as much more, a stalker does slightly more, they all can hit air marauders can't. The bonus damage gives them almost equal dps to 2 marines,. Without the bonus they do less damage. Understand? Any high dps unit can kill buildings just as fast a marauder, marauders are not even the best at it. Zerglings are by far the highest dps as long as the building is big enough to surround. And guess what? The really important buildings like CC/Nexus/Hatch are quite big and have lots of surface area to hit. I don't know how I can put this any clearer without making a video of just about any high dps unit killing buildings just as fast as marauders. Killing a CC/nexus/hatch so easily should not be possible by any unit, these buildings at least need a huge HP bonus, making them not classed as armoured would just see marines and/or reapers used for the exact same effect. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On September 11 2010 19:31 bokeevboke wrote: As for realism, I think most stupid is medivac - how do they heal from the air? That, and air units being repaired from the ground while in the air. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On September 12 2010 01:56 Apolo wrote: That, and air units being repaired from the ground while in the air. And Marines/Hydras bringing down a Carrier/Mothership! THIS JUST AINT REALISTIC, YO! | ||
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
On September 12 2010 01:54 Kazang wrote: I don't know how I can put this any clearer without making a video of just about any high dps unit killing buildings just as fast as marauders. go ahead and do it. you will notice just how much faster marauders actualy are. all the theorycrafting is nice, but the ingame situation proves you wrong. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On September 12 2010 01:06 eivind wrote: I just wanted to quote this with more bold text! This guy is a genious and most people are stupid. Not really. To do a claim like that he would have to know what does it mean to do "good damage" and "bad damage". People are just sucking up to him, because he put another way of seeing things, but he didn't by any chance show how it is any more valid than marauders doing extra damage to armored and normal to light. Go read his post more carefully and you'll see how he failed to support his argument. | ||
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reprise
Canada316 Posts
On September 12 2010 01:54 Kazang wrote: No you are flat out wrong, Marauders do not do super damage to buildings, zealots do the same dps as a non stimmed Marauder, marauders have the option to do 50% more damage while having 50% less HP than a zealot. You see how it works? 100 minerals of Zerglings, which is 4, do 22 dps to a 1 armour building, that is without the 20% upgrade. 1 stimmed Marauder does 19 dps to that same building, and stim only lasts for 15 seconds and does health damage. OMG MARAUDER DPS IS SO IMBA!! Oh no wait even in ideal circumstances for the marauder it's worse than upgraded zerglings, add in +1 attack and 20% attack speed and zergling dps rockets ahead of marauders. So imba right? Of course they do more damage to armour. It's a matter of balance and relative damage. It's relative to what other units can also do, a single marine (50 minerals) does the same dps to light units as single marauder (100minerals and 25 gas). A marauder against armour does equal damage to 2 marines, the same mineral and supply cost. The damage against light is poor for their cost, a single marine does more, a hydra does twice as much more, a stalker does slightly more, they all can hit air marauders can't. The bonus damage gives them almost equal dps to 2 marines,. Without the bonus they do less damage. Understand? Any high dps unit can kill buildings just as fast a marauder, marauders are not even the best at it. Zerglings are by far the highest dps as long as the building is big enough to surround. And guess what? The really important buildings like CC/Nexus/Hatch are quite big and have lots of surface area to hit. I don't know how I can put this any clearer without making a video of just about any high dps unit killing buildings just as fast as marauders. Killing a CC/nexus/hatch so easily should not be possible by any unit, these buildings at least need a huge HP bonus, making them not classed as armoured would just see marines and/or reapers used for the exact same effect. You're comparing melee dps to ranged dps. There's a reason why melee units do much more damage. It's not just the sheer damage that makes building sniping with Marauders a problem, it's the ease and speed in which one can do this. | ||
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wail
United States26 Posts
On September 12 2010 01:07 CurLy[] wrote: Terrans building snipes are seriously ridiculous. There are times you just can't defend it and it is frustrating as hell losing a key tech building or nexus on a marauder drop this game is a good example of marauder building rape Yep. It's quite funny because even though this game features a lot of Marauder building sniping, HD still cannot manage to catch it all. For example, at about 1:05 mark you see a Terran dropship unload near the 1 o'clock Nexus. At about 1:11 mark you can the Marauders have advanced next to the Nexus. At about 1:18 the Nexus is gone. Meanwhile in the early part of this video Socke is attacking a CC that is flying in to the 5 o'clock position with Stalkers (and Zealots when it lands) for about 15-20 seconds and has it only down to half health before his forces there are wiped out by the main Terran army that walks over to reinforce. | ||
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CanuckSC
Canada4 Posts
Plus, why don't Protoss and Zerg abuse their drop system, which by all means are not anyway inferior to terrans. Protoss can warp in an endless amount of units as long as there is pylon or warp prism power and there's plenty of gateways. Zerg can use nydus worms to unload UNLIMITED number of a units. Oh and overlords too! Someone mentioned that Medivacs and Marauders are no risk drops since they are staple units, but what about overlords? Zergs need overlords as well, so I don't see any difference in there. "Terran can drop in multiple spots at the same time" So can you, the Protoss and Zerg. Make 2 warprism or 2 proxy pylons, or make 2 nydus worms and use overlords at the same time. The key is SPLITTING up your units. Or if terran is doing a multiple pronged attack, you can engage the main army knowing that he is now at least 4-8 maruaders and 1-2 medivacs lesser in strength. If the terran can split his forces in 2, 3 or 4, so can you. Get creative! | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Zealot: (8-1) * 2 / 1.2 = 11.6 DPS to buildings = 5.83 DPS per supply Stalker = (14-1) / 1.44 = 9.03 DPS to buildings = 4.52 DPS per supply Marauder: (20-1) / 1.5 = 12.667 DPS to buildings = 6.33 DPS per supply Stimmed Marauder: (20-1) / 1 = 19 DPS to buildings = 9.5 DPS per supply Marine: (6-1) / 0.8608 = 5.8 DPS to buildings = 5.8 DPS per supply Stimmed Marine: (6-1) / 0.574 = 8.71 DPS per supply I did it by supply to distinguish how much raw DPS you can fit into a transport that can only carry 8 supply. Do Terran drops need to be that strong, that early in a game? An Immortal is a dedicated building buster (its crap at everything else, after all) and yet A) it still does less damage per drop-slot in a drop fashion B) requires 55s a pop, out of the same building constructing the dropping unit at 50s, taking forever to construct the drop C) an OC or CC can just Lift-Off... I don't think its too much to ask for a cheap upgrade to the Medivac (raising it from carrying 4 supply to 8) to delay that kind of damage potential being thrown at your Nexus. Its a powerful tool and really cool, but its one of those things that can get thrown at you WAY too soon. Any Terran who thinks an Immortal drop is anywhere near as deadly as a 1/1/1 MM drop is in an unbelievable amount of denial. | ||
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
On September 12 2010 01:54 Kazang wrote: No you are flat out wrong, Marauders do not do super damage to buildings, zealots do the same dps as a non stimmed Marauder, marauders have the option to do 50% more damage while having 50% less HP than a zealot. You see how it works? 100 minerals of Zerglings, which is 4, do 22 dps to a 1 armour building, that is without the 20% upgrade. 1 stimmed Marauder does 19 dps to that same building, and stim only lasts for 15 seconds and does health damage. OMG MARAUDER DPS IS SO IMBA!! Oh no wait even in ideal circumstances for the marauder it's worse than upgraded zerglings, add in +1 attack and 20% attack speed and zergling dps rockets ahead of marauders. So imba right? Of course they do more damage to armour. It's a matter of balance and relative damage. It's relative to what other units can also do, a single marine (50 minerals) does the same dps to light units as single marauder (100minerals and 25 gas). A marauder against armour does equal damage to 2 marines, the same mineral and supply cost. The damage against light is poor for their cost, a single marine does more, a hydra does twice as much more, a stalker does slightly more, they all can hit air marauders can't. The bonus damage gives them almost equal dps to 2 marines,. Without the bonus they do less damage. Understand? Any high dps unit can kill buildings just as fast a marauder, marauders are not even the best at it. Zerglings are by far the highest dps as long as the building is big enough to surround. And guess what? The really important buildings like CC/Nexus/Hatch are quite big and have lots of surface area to hit. I don't know how I can put this any clearer without making a video of just about any high dps unit killing buildings just as fast as marauders. Killing a CC/nexus/hatch so easily should not be possible by any unit, these buildings at least need a huge HP bonus, making them not classed as armoured would just see marines and/or reapers used for the exact same effect. I understand completely, I understand how to compare DPS, and other statistics. The thing is, if you were to have Zerglings or Zealots in positions where you're trying to snipe Buildings, they must commit to either Warp Prisms, Nydys Worms, or Overlord Speed and Drop. Now for the Marauder ( Which I believe is the sole reason that Buildings being Armored is even being discussed) being dropped, you'd already have Medivacs at hand, which means you don't have to commit anything special to snipe buildings. You say Zerglings and Zealots can have the same DPS if they surround, the problem is getting to that surround. We must always consider that Marauders are ranged and so benefit from a considerable amount of mobility. Let's also put into account that the Marauder has double the amount of HP as a Zergling, it's quite a hassle to deal with a Medivac that also heals it for 13.5hp/s. Let's also apply the fact that units have to be dropped off 1 by 1, we can clearly see that 4 units is a lot faster to drop then 8 ( in the case of lings.) What I'm trying to say is we can compare numbers all we want but the problem is that in-game Marauder drops are obnoxious as fuck. You have very little time to react to what is going on. Things like Zerglings drops you can easily just pull your workers off the line to at least buy time to bring in back up, Marauders can simply tank the damage and continue to snipe thanks to the Medivac or just proceed to kite the crap out of your units. Now I do like the point you make on saying how Building in general might have too little HP, which is probably true especially when applying the fact that the overall DPS in Sc2 has been greatly increased. But if you just crunch numbers, it doesn't prove shit. Sc2 is a game, there are too many things to consider before just crunching up numbers and coming to a conclusion. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
On September 12 2010 02:36 RoarMan wrote: I understand completely, I understand how to compare DPS, and other statistics. The thing is, if you were to have Zerglings or Zealots in positions where you're trying to snipe Buildings, they must commit to either Warp Prisms, Nydys Worms, or Overlord Speed and Drop. Now for the Marauder ( Which I believe is the sole reason that Buildings being Armored is even being discussed) being dropped, you'd already have Medivacs at hand, which means you don't have to commit anything special to snipe buildings. You say Zerglings and Zealots can have the same DPS if they surround, the problem is getting to that surround. We must always consider that Marauders are ranged and so benefit from a considerable amount of mobility. Let's also put into account that the Marauder has double the amount of HP as a Zergling, it's quite a hassle to deal with a Medivac that also heals it for 13.5hp/s. Let's also apply the fact that units have to be dropped off 1 by 1, we can clearly see that 4 units is a lot faster to drop then 8 ( in the case of lings.) What I'm trying to say is we can compare numbers all we want but the problem is that in-game Marauder drops are obnoxious as fuck. You have very little time to react to what is going on. Things like Zerglings drops you can easily just pull your workers off the line to at least buy time to bring in back up, Marauders can simply tank the damage and continue to snipe thanks to the Medivac or just proceed to kite the crap out of your units. Now I do like the point you make on saying how Building in general might have too little HP, which is probably true especially when applying the fact that the overall DPS in Sc2 has been greatly increased. But if you just crunch numbers, it doesn't prove shit. Sc2 is a game, there are too many things to consider before just crunching up numbers and coming to a conclusion. Even if you compare purely by math, zergling DPS only edges out marauders by a very small margin when compared cost for cost. Marauders are still going to kill buildings at a similar rate to lings, and it's much easier to pull off a drop as terran than it is for zerg. EDIT: I also love how that previous poster says "stim only lasts for 15 seconds" like it's a bad thing. Even with no attack upgrades, 8 stim Marauders can snipe a Nexus before stim runs out. | ||
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